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View Full Version : Anyone used Crown and Putsch saws?



Brent Cutshall
02-28-2016, 5:54 PM
The title says it. I'm thinking about buying a Crown or Putsch dovetail saw and was wondering about the quality of said saws. So,what do y'all think,thumbs up or thumbs down? And sorry about the misspell in the title.

Patrick Chase
02-28-2016, 7:12 PM
The title says it. I'm thinking about buying a Crown or Putsch dovetail saw and was wondering about the quality of said saws. So,what do y'all think,thumbs up or thumbs down? And sorry about the misspell in the title.

I have the closed-grip 20 tpi Crown dovetail saw (the $80 one, not the $20 gents' saw). I use it as my "beater" saw for trying out new filings. Right now it has a hybrid tooth pattern with progressive rake.

For the same amount of money the Veritas dovetail saw is a better choice. I say that for a couple reasons:

1. The closed-tote design on the Crown limits the last ~1.5" of the blade to a maximum cut depth of <1".

2. The blade is a teeny bit wavy (I've seen this on multiple samples). I suspect this reflects a limitation in Crown's folding process for the brass back. In contrast the Veritas is dead straight. IMO it's not out enough to impact accuracy, but it is a black mark.

3. The 20 tpi toothing is good for making small boxes out of really thin stock, not so great for furniture work (too slow). Also, if you do want a 20 tpi dovetail saw then the fine-pitch version of the Veritas is still a better choice at the same price for all of the other reasons given here here.

4. The out-of-box sharpening job isn't very good, which makes that 20 tpi filing even slower and is why the Crown ended up as my filing testbed. The Veritas is also not ideal (where my scale for "perfect" is basically "what Mark Harrell does to his saws") but it's definitely better.

I've constrained myself to the Crown and the Veritas above because they're about the same price ($80). If you're willing to spend a bit more then the Lie-Nielsen and the Wentzloff are both at least as good as the Veritas while having more traditional designs (I like the Veritas saws, but they're very unconventional and that's not everybody's cup of tea).

Ron Bontz
02-28-2016, 8:44 PM
Just food for thought. I do think the Veritas are an excellent bang for the buck. Especially if you are just starting out on a budget. They are sharpened as well as any one's saw, straight from the box. Adding fleam to a rip saw is a preference sometimes handy, but rarely needed. Add to that the excellent customer service of Lee Valley and I think you have a winner. Best of luck which ever you choose and happy woodworking.

Brent Cutshall
02-28-2016, 9:23 PM
Hey Ron,while you're here,this is completely off subject, but what do you use to punch teeth in your saw saws?

Ron Bontz
02-28-2016, 11:14 PM
Foley retoother #385. I also have a hand lever type. I don't have all the bars needed but it is still sort of cool to think some one actually stood there and punched all those teeth one at a time. Like playing an old slot machine. :) Just no cha ching. Only pop pop.

Patrick Chase
02-29-2016, 3:15 AM
I have the closed-grip 20 tpi Crown dovetail saw (the $80 one, not the $20 gents' saw). I use it as my "beater" saw for trying out new filings. Right now it has a hybrid tooth pattern with progressive rake.

For the same amount of money the Veritas dovetail saw is a better choice. I say that for a couple reasons:

1. The closed-tote design on the Crown limits the last ~1.5" of the blade to a maximum cut depth of <1".

2. The blade is a teeny bit wavy (I've seen this on multiple samples). I suspect this reflects a limitation in Crown's folding process for the brass back. In contrast the Veritas is dead straight. IMO it's not out enough to impact accuracy, but it is a black mark.

3. The 20 tpi toothing is good for making small boxes out of really thin stock, not so great for furniture work (too slow). Also, if you do want a 20 tpi dovetail saw then the fine-pitch version of the Veritas is still a better choice at the same price for all of the other reasons given here here.

4. The out-of-box sharpening job isn't very good, which makes that 20 tpi filing even slower and is why the Crown ended up as my filing testbed. The Veritas is also not ideal (where my scale for "perfect" is basically "what Mark Harrell does to his saws") but it's definitely better.

I've constrained myself to the Crown and the Veritas above because they're about the same price ($80). If you're willing to spend a bit more then the Lie-Nielsen and the Wentzloff are both at least as good as the Veritas while having more traditional designs (I like the Veritas saws, but they're very unconventional and that's not everybody's cup of tea).

Seeing Ron's comments reminded me of one other thing I personally don't like about the Crown: Hang angle (not because Ron said anything about that in this thread, but because that's something he's known to put a lot of work into in his own saws). The handle is very steep compared to most other dovetail saws. You can get used to it but IMO it isn't ideal. YMMV of course.

Brent Cutshall
02-29-2016, 6:52 AM
Thanks Patrick,though handle setup doesn't really matter to me cause I make and customize my handles all the time. I can't help myself, more of my saws have custom handles than not. Thank you too Ron, your saws are truly amazing especially the halfbacks. If it was in the budget I'd probably get one of your saws. You wouldn't mind me "borrowing" one for a little while would you. Just kidding!

Chris Hachet
02-29-2016, 7:19 AM
Plus one for the Veritas saws. They work very, very well. And I also ahve premium saws from Lie Nielson, Bad Axe and Bontz....the Veritas are the best bang for the buck IMHO.

Although at $125 the Lie Nielson is not much more. I like the trditional styling of the sw much better than the Veritas saws, and I also find the less contoured handle on the Lie Nielson helps in my muscle memory and my knowing exactly how the saw is positioned in my hand. I even like the Lie Nielson better than the Bad Axe.

Ron Bontz
02-29-2016, 3:42 PM
Well, I don't know what the hang angle is on a Crown dovetail saw in particular, but there is certainly a variety out there from about 30* to 50*. So what ever works best for the individual. Thank you for the kind words, by the way. Best wishes.

Patrick Chase
03-01-2016, 1:45 PM
Well, I don't know what the hang angle is on a Crown dovetail saw in particular, but there is certainly a variety out there from about 30* to 50*. So what ever works best for the individual. Thank you for the kind words, by the way. Best wishes.

The Crown's hang angle is ~60 deg. The tote doesn't have much curvature (and the back is almost straight) so it's pretty easy to measure. For comparison the Veritas dovetail saws are ~45 deg.

Replying to one of your other posts, my comments about quality of sharpening jobs above lumped geometry with actual sharpness/acuity. As you say Veritas does about as good a job as anybody, but their geometries are pretty conservative. For example their rip dovetail saws (both the 14 and 20 tpi versions) have 14 deg rake angles. While I'm sure that makes "Norm crossovers" happy because they can start their cuts easily, it's not such a good thing for speed.

If you file your own saws then it doesn't matter, since it's easy enough to file in more aggressive rake or whatever else you need.

Daniel Rode
03-01-2016, 3:17 PM
For example their rip dovetail saws (both the 14 and 20 tpi versions) have 14 deg rake angles. While I'm sure that makes "Norm crossovers" happy because they can start their cuts easily, it's not such a good thing for speed.

I'm curious why speed would be any sort of factor. No one is doing production-line hand cut dovetails, so a few extra strokes and the few extra seconds it takes to cut a line seem meaningless to me. Other than being faster, what would be the advantage to a more aggressive rake angle?

Patrick Chase
03-01-2016, 3:38 PM
I'm curious why speed would be any sort of factor. No one is doing production-line hand cut dovetails, so a few extra strokes and the few extra seconds it takes to cut a line seem meaningless to me. Other than being faster, what would be the advantage to a more aggressive rake angle?

No other advantage that I know of, though all dovetail-cutting is rather repetitive. Each piece is its own little production line, after all.

Andrew Pitonyak
03-01-2016, 7:33 PM
I recently brought four of my dovetail saws to the local woodcraft to let some of the people test the saws:



Ron Bontz
Lie Nielsen
Bad Axe tool works
Lee Valley


All of the saws cut very well. The over-all preferred saw was the Bad Axe saw, which is a testament to the sharpening ability of Mark Harrell, but you can pay Mark to sharpen any saw that you have if you prefer how it sharpens it. For certain, this is not my most aggressive dovetail saw.

The Ron Bontz saw has a smaller handle for my young girls. When I cut dovetails, there is one cut where I cut the side ends off the tails and I seem to do this better with the Ron Bontz saw (even with a handle much too small for my hand). What can I say, I really like this saw.

One of the people there, who has small hands, really liked the Ron Botz saw. I think that it was the first time that he had used a saw that actually fit his hand. I suggested that he make his own saw handle and barring that, he can easily indicate the desired handle size from either Ron or Bad Axe.

The saw with the most miles on it is the Lie Nielsen saw. The first handle was a bit too small for me (or at least it bit into the web of my hand), so, after I had owned it for a few years, Lie Nielsen offered to replace the saw handle for free with one that is a bit too large for me. I was surprised, but, I was speaking with them in person and I had the saw with me. I obtain good results with it regardless of the perfect handle.

It is clear that for the money, Lee Valley cannot be beat. This is my newest saw, and I purchased it because my oldest daughter said that she kind of likes it after she tried it at a local wood working show. It cuts well, cuts straight, and, for me, is comfortable to hold and use. I have not cut enough with it to say this categorically, and, my first cuts with it I thought felt slow. I just assumed that it was slow until I cut with it last night and it pretty much flew through the wood. So, I need to do some more tests. I was probably cutting something very hard compared to the poplar that I cut last night.

Patrick Chase
03-01-2016, 10:00 PM
I recently brought four of my dovetail saws to the local woodcraft to let some of the people test the saws:



Ron Bontz
Lie Nielsen
Bad Axe tool works
Lee Valley


All of the saws cut very well. The over-all preferred saw was the Bad Axe saw, which is a testament to the sharpening ability of Mark Harrell, but you can pay Mark to sharpen any saw that you have if you prefer how it sharpens it. For certain, this is not my most aggressive dovetail saw.

Yep, my 14" BA sash saw is similarly untouchable. That's the only "as shipped" configuration that I've been unable to match by hand, even knowing the parameters (10 deg rake, 12.5 deg fleam, 3 mil/side set). If Malcolm Gladwell is right I should only need another ~9800 hrs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29) of saw-filing to get there...

The other thing with Mark's saws is that his default configurations reward experienced sawyers. For example the rip filing for his DT saws has 5 deg rake (and 5 deg fleam), which makes it a very fast-cutting saw (though you have to know what you're doing to get the cut started in the first place).


The Ron Bontz saw has a smaller handle for my young girls. When I cut dovetails, there is one cut where I cut the side ends off the tails and I seem to do this better with the Ron Bontz saw (even with a handle much too small for my hand). What can I say, I really like this saw.

One of the people there, who has small hands, really liked the Ron Botz saw. I think that it was the first time that he had used a saw that actually fit his hand. I suggested that he make his own saw handle and barring that, he can easily indicate the desired handle size from either Ron or Bad Axe.

The saw with the most miles on it is the Lie Nielsen saw. The first handle was a bit too small for me (or at least it bit into the web of my hand), so, after I had owned it for a few years, Lie Nielsen offered to replace the saw handle for free with one that is a bit too large for me. I was surprised, but, I was speaking with them in person and I had the saw with me. I obtain good results with it regardless of the perfect handle.

It is clear that for the money, Lee Valley cannot be beat. This is my newest saw, and I purchased it because my oldest daughter said that she kind of likes it after she tried it at a local wood working show. It cuts well, cuts straight, and, for me, is comfortable to hold and use. I have not cut enough with it to say this categorically, and, my first cuts with it I thought felt slow. I just assumed that it was slow until I cut with it last night and it pretty much flew through the wood. So, I need to do some more tests. I was probably cutting something very hard compared to the poplar that I cut last night.

Yeah, that's one thing that always impresses me about Veritas. Their designers understand which parts of traditional tool designs were critical to their function, and which were merely reflections of the era in which when they were made. That helps them spot opportunities where modern materials and processes can provide same level of performance from a less expensive tool. Their saws are a good example IMO.

I actually think that the Veritas DT saw with its as-shipped (14 deg rake) rip filing is a bit on the slow side. On the other hand it's also very easy to handle, which is probably why they ship it that way. Put another way, people who don't file their own saws are likely to be happy with relaxed rake, while those who do won't care anyway.

Poplar makes *everything* look fast...

Andrew Pitonyak
03-02-2016, 7:35 AM
I actually think that the Veritas DT saw with its as-shipped (14 deg rake) rip filing is a bit on the slow side. On the other hand it's also very easy to handle, which is probably why they ship it that way. Put another way, people who don't file their own saws are likely to be happy with relaxed rake, while those who do won't care anyway.

Poplar makes *everything* look fast...

So it is not just me and I am not going crazy!

Brent Cutshall
03-02-2016, 9:07 AM
While we're on the subject, does anybody have any complaints about Lynx saws. I've heard good things about them but that's still company reviews. You've about got to go for german made tools to get any quality from the big brands now days.