Another saw sharpening question

[Phil Mueller]

Early stages of learning here. So far, not bad. I have a Disston D23 12pt rip. I'd like to try to get this one to a fairly smooth/finish quality cut, if possible. I'm not sure if rake, fleam or set most influences a clean cut (especially the out cut side)...I suspect all three.

I'm not as concerned with fast cutting. To get the smoothest cut with this saw, what would you recommend for rake/fleam/set.
Regarding set, I don't have a micrometer...just the saw set # on the wheel to go by. Would you "set" that at 12 or something else?

Your input is greatly appreciated.
Phil

[Jim Koepke]

Early stages of learning here. So far, not bad. I have a Disston D23 12pt rip. I'd like to try to get this one to a fairly smooth/finish quality cut, if possible. I'm not sure if rake, fleam or set most influences a clean cut (especially the out cut side)...I suspect all three.

I'm not as concerned with fast cutting. To get the smoothest cut with this saw, what would you recommend for rake/fleam/set.
Regarding set, I don't have a micrometer...just the saw set # on the wheel to go by. Would you "set" that at 12 or something else?

Your input is greatly appreciated.
Phil

Good morning Phil,

Take a surf over to:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/

This will answer a lot of your questions.

Rake has to do with how aggressive a saw cuts. Rip saws are usually ~9º or less. Crosscut saws can have up to ~15º or maybe more.

Fleam is mostly used with crosscut saws and is often a consideration of the wood used. Hardwoods will wear a saw quicker so a little less fleam ~15-20º. Softwoods are not as hard on the edge so a little more fleam ~20-25º. Some folks will introduce up to ~5º fleam on a rip saw.

The set just like the other elements of saw sharpening depends on the use. It is always easier to add set than it is to remove set. Though some do use a vise and paper to compress the set into compliance.

The setting number would only be meaningful to someone else with the same saw set as you have. My tendency is to start with as little set as possible and increase the set if needed. If the saw is being used correctly and binds, it may need a bit more set. Be aware of a saw stopping at the same place yet not stuck in the wood. That can be a sign of a tooth taller than the others.

A 12pt rip saw will be a bit on the slow cutting side, but will be more likely to leave a smoother surface than a 5pt rip. Though a 5pt with light set might be able to leave a better surface than a 12pt with excessive set.

One of the fun parts about learning to file saws is you can pick up those beat up and otherwise cheap saws at yard sales to try different rake, fleam and set so when you want to fix up a good saw you will have the experience to make it cut how you want it to cut.

jtk

[Matt Knights]

Don't alter the saws geometry, for a clean cut with no splintering (I presume you mean when crosscutting) use a knife wall as described be Paul Sellers well described here by the accidental woodworker http://accidentalwoodworker.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/knife-wall.html.

As far as set is concerned I use an old eclipse 77 and always set to the finest setting on all my saws, if your using dry wood then you don't need a load of set.

Matt

[Patrick Chase]

Early stages of learning here. So far, not bad. I have a Disston D23 12pt rip. I'd like to try to get this one to a fairly smooth/finish quality cut, if possible. I'm not sure if rake, fleam or set most influences a clean cut (especially the out cut side)...I suspect all three.

I'm not as concerned with fast cutting. To get the smoothest cut with this saw, what would you recommend for rake/fleam/set.
Regarding set, I don't have a micrometer...just the saw set # on the wheel to go by. Would you "set" that at 12 or something else?

Your input is greatly appreciated.
Phil

You don't say how you plan to use this saw. What sort of woods? Is it purely for ripping or will you be doing "intermediate" cuts at, say, >10 deg off of the grain direction? I'll assume hardwoods...

The fact that you don't have preferences suggests to me that you may not have a lot of experience with handsaws (my apologies if I'm misjudging), so you may want to start on the high side of the "conventional wisdom" rake numbers that Jim gave. Higher rake makes the saw easier to start but slower to cut. Maybe 8 or 10 deg?

Fleam causes the teeth to pre-score the sides of the cut before they remove the center. If you're making pure rip cuts it doesn't matter very much, but fleam is the big knob to improve exit "cleanliness" for intermediate- and cross-cuts. The catch is that it slows rip cuts down and also makes the teeth a bit more fragile.

Set is a deeply personal thing. Basically you're trading off tracking and speed/effort (minimal set is better for both, provided the saw doesn't bind) and resistance to binding and the ability to adjust cut direction (high set is better for both). If you're using a Somax set then the "12" setting will give you something like 5-6 mils per side, which is a LOT of set.

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks gentlemen. And Patrick, you presume correctly! Very good reference Jim, and yes, I have a number of garage sale saws to play with. I do believe I've over set one...will go much less on the next.

Have to admit this has caused quite a thirst for more saws...I think I'm gonna need a bigger till.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks gentlemen. And Patrick, you presume correctly! Very good reference Jim, and yes, I have a number of garage sale saws to play with. I do believe I've over set one...will go much less on the next.

Have to admit this has caused quite a thirst for more saws...I think I'm gonna need a bigger till.

You are welcome.

Oh and welcome to the club of the slippery slope.

I keep putting off making a saw till because more saws keep looking at me like lost puppies wanting me to take them home.

jtk

[Tom M King]

332602I'd like to see the teeth on a D23 12pt. rip. I'd bet it didn't come that way. Slope on the teeth makes a smoother cut edge. It does make the teeth dull a little faster, but no question a cleaner cut. This siding was cut with a 10 pt. crosscut saw with a fair amount of slope on the teeth, and the ends of the boards were not touched any kind of way after the cut before being nailed up. It might look tight, but it's floating on the nails, and you can move each one in and out a little with a fingertip. That is a house I built in 1991, and the picture was taken a few years ago.

Slope is easiest added with a vise that tilts so you can keep the file level, but I knew several guys that always filed up on both crosscut and rip saws. I like a tilting vise because I like to always keep the file level for any kind of woodworking saw filing.

[Jim Davis]

Tom, you are right. Disston didn't produce D-23s in 12 point rip configuration. Nothing finer than 7 ppi that I have ever seen, heard of or read of. This is the second recent thread where rip-filed saws have been written about in tooth sizes Disston never made. I wonder if there is something in the water.....?

[Tom M King]

I can't see a use for anything finer than 6 pt. in a full sized rip handsaw. I have a 6 pt. rip Sandvik that I can shave (pare) the face of a large tenon with.

[Tom Vanzant]

Jim and Tom...good questions re: a D-23 12pt rip. Per disstonianinstitute.com, D-23 came in 12pt XC in shorter 20" saws, and 24" in the early 1930s. Rip has always been 5-6pt. I inherited a D-23 from my FIL, bought new after his WWII discharge. It's 26" 8pt, originally XC but filed rip at some point in its life. It's still a user, but is now less than 1" wide at the toe and 1/2" under the handle. Paul, at some point in your woodworking future, you might consider filing your D-23 to its original XC. Whatever you do, keep it and use it!

[Phil Mueller]

You are all undoughtedly correct regarding the rip filing of this saw not being original. It is a more recent "Disston"...product of the Porter company (?), so no collectible here. It certainly lost all its fleam by the time it hit the garage sale.

For now, I kept it rip. Put about 10* rake on it and it does make a smooth cut. Moves a bit to the right, but frankly, not sure if it's the sharpening or my novice sawing skills...probably both.


I think on the vintage saw site he states everyone should experience the feeling of running a freshly sharpened saw through a piece of wood. Silly as it may sound, I have to agree with him.

[Jim Davis]

It seem likely to me that someone filed the teeth straight across in the process of reshaping the teeth after many careless filings. Maybe they just didn't get around to re-establishing the bevels.

[Patrick Chase]

For now, I kept it rip. Put about 10* rake on it and it does make a smooth cut. Moves a bit to the right, but frankly, not sure if it's the sharpening or my novice sawing skills...probably both.

Did you file all of the teeth from the same side of the saw? If so was it the left side by any chance?

This is a topic of debate, but IMO the burr left by filing each tooth increases the "effective set" on the trailing side of the file stroke. It's easy enough to see if that's the case under magnification, and if so you can just lightly stone the right side of the saw to get rid of it. It will also go away on its own with use (this is a part of what people refer to when they talk about saws becoming smoother with use after being sharpened).

Ron Herman correctly points out in his video that you don't need to file from both sides, but IMO if you don't then it's a good idea to do something about that burr.

[Jim Koepke]

Ron Herman correctly points out in his video that you don't need to file from both sides, but IMO if you don't then it's a good idea to do something about that burr.

If you file in the traditional manner of half from each side my experience is the saw tends to pull to one side less. For me it is easy to flip the saw and file from both sides than it is to trying to correct for filing all from one side after the fact.

332623

jtk

[Tom M King]

I have always filed from both sides. It just doesn't feel right for me not to. Time saved by not doing so approaches nothing. My rhythm feels much better to me by hitting every other gullet anyway.

[Phil Mueller]

I did file from both sides...just seems right to me as well.

I made a few more trial cuts this morning and it was still tracking right. I lightly stoned the side and it did help some. Then it dawned on me.
I was sawing left handed (definitely left eye dominant), but had the line on the right side of the saw and focusing with my right eye. Once I moved the line to the left of the saw and focused with my left eye, the cut improved a lot (duh!). I'm a bit ambidextrous, and it has caused right/left dominance challenges on some things.

Anyway, I feel better about the sharpening...just need to spend more time practicing technique. Kicking myself for cleaning out the scrap box...but a fire starter for the fireplace during a recent power outage took precedent!

[Patrick Chase]

If you file in the traditional manner of half from each side my experience is the saw tends to pull to one side less. For me it is easy to flip the saw and file from both sides than it is to trying to correct for filing all from one side after the fact.

I wasn't recommending filing all from one side, though I did try to keep my wording neutral to avoid being flamed by "[Ron] Herman's Hermits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman%27s_Hermits)", of which there appear to be many at SMC. Just trying to figure out why the OP got the results he did...

FWIW I file all from the same side while cutting/shaping teeth (which is done without fleam) and then from both sides during the final sharpening pass[es]. That's sufficient to avoid the puling/burr issue. The challenge there is that you have to be able to anticipate what the opposing pass will and won't remove, or else you end up flipping back and forth a lot. I can certainly understand why somebody starting out might want to file all from the same side. As you say, YMMV.

EDIT: Added explanatory link to my other obscure-reference-o-the-day. No, I was not really trying to label everybody who learned from Herman's videos a "hermit".

[Patrick Chase]

I did file from both sides...just seems right to me as well.

I made a few more trial cuts this morning and it was still tracking right. I lightly stoned the side and it did help some. Then it dawned on me.
I was sawing left handed (definitely left eye dominant), but had the line on the right side of the saw and focusing with my right eye. Once I moved the line to the left of the saw and focused with my left eye, the cut improved a lot (duh!). I'm a bit ambidextrous, and it has caused right/left dominance challenges on some things.

A couple thoughts:

1. If/when you start doing joinery cuts you'll need to be able to cut with the line on either side of the saw. The obvious case where that arises is with dovetails, but there are many others as well.

2. What you describe is the opposite of what most people experience. Usually people figure out pretty quickly how to cut with the line to the "inside" of the saw (to the left when sawing right-handed, or to the right when sawing left-handed) and have to work harder at cutting accurately with the line to the "outside". This makes me wonder if there's something odd about your stance - are you lining up the saw, elbow, and shoulder, or are the elbow and shoulder "outside" of the saw (to the left when sawing left-handed)? A mirror helps when judging this...

[Phil Mueller]

Just when I thought I had it figured out. Not sure about the saw, elbow, shoulder. Will do some more trials and see what happens.
Really do appreciate all the input!

[Jim Koepke]

Then it dawned on me.
I was sawing left handed (definitely left eye dominant), but had the line on the right side of the saw and focusing with my right eye. Once I moved the line to the left of the saw and focused with my left eye, the cut improved a lot (duh!). I'm a bit ambidextrous, and it has caused right/left dominance challenges on some things.

Being a bit ambidextrous myself and learning more about eye dominance not too long ago has done a lot to improve my sawing. It is kind of strange at first thinking about which eye is in charge for a particular cut.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

You do know that Tage Frid sharpened all of his handsaws rip. Actually, IIRC, Paul Sellers did the same at Homestead Heritage.

There is no problem cutting cross grain with rip fine tooth sharp saw. I sharpen cross cut because I wanted to learn how.

I like the feel of a nicely sharpened cross cut saw, but it's not a necessity. I have some tenon saws sharpened rip that I don't hesitate to use cross grain.
I have 10 point saw that was cross cut but is now rip.

Is the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw available as a cross cut?

Having learned to sharpen from Ron Howard's video, I don't file from both sides. I haven't experienced much difficulty with burr, but maybe I have ignored it.

[Patrick Chase]

Having learned to sharpen from Ron Howard's video, I don't file from both sides.

You learned saw filing from Happy Days? This thread has really jumped the shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark)...

EDIT: Add Wikipedia link in the unlikely event that somebody doesn't know the reference.

[Patrick Chase]

You do know that Tage Frid sharpened all of his handsaws rip. Actually, IIRC, Paul Sellers did the same at Homestead Heritage.

There is no problem cutting cross grain with rip fine tooth sharp saw. I sharpen cross cut because I wanted to learn how.

I like the feel of a nicely sharpened cross cut saw, but it's not a necessity. I have some tenon saws sharpened rip that I don't hesitate to use cross grain.
I have 10 point saw that was cross cut but is now rip.

I've started using hybrid filings a lot (rip-worthy levels of rake with <= 10 deg fleam), and they work very nicely for most cuts in most woods.

EDIT:

It's interesting to note how differently these tradeoffs play out for people who do and don't sharpen their own saws.

A fair number of people who do sharpen their own elect to go with rip filings for everything as you describe. This implies that they believe that it's easier overall to learn to make good crosscuts with rip filings (and add knife-lines when needed) than to go to the trouble of adding fleam every time they file. That appears to me to be a reasonable tradeoff most of the time.

In constrast most Western saws with impulse-hardened teeth (Bahco, Stanley, etc) use crosscut filings. They're sharpened by machine so the incremental cost of fleam is small, and so ease-of-cut wins out.

[Jim Koepke]

In constrast most Western saws with impulse-hardened teeth (Bahco, Stanley, etc) use crosscut filings. They're sharpened by machine so the incremental cost of fleam is small, and so ease-of-cut wins out.

My guess on this is more people likely buy saws today for shortening a board and not making two skinny boards from one fat board.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't file a crosscut saw as a crosscut. It's been working for me for a long time.

[lowell holmes]

[QUOTE=Patrick Chase;2535589]You learned saw filing from Happy Days? This thread has really jumped the shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark)...

Obviously, I miss spoke. It's not the first time.:)

It obviously was Ron Herman.

I think that using the Lee Valley file holder helps in filing even from one side. I also mark the saw plate with red dry-erase marker that shows where I've been while filing.

[Patrick Chase]

Obviously, I miss spoke. It's not the first time.:)

It obviously was Ron Herman.

Indeed, and I was expecting you to reply and say something like that when I wrote #13 and #17, but it's not every day that somebody hands you a perfect setup line for a shark jumping joke. It would have been a sacrilege to let that go to waste...



I think that using the Lee Valley file holder helps in filing even from one side. I also mark the saw plate with red dry-erase marker that shows where I've been while filing.

Yep, same here, except I use big black Marks-A-Lot markers that I buy in bulk.

As I said previously I only file from both sides on the very last pass. I try to get all of the tops of the teeth to about the same size before I do that, so that all I have to do to ensure uniformity is take identical strokes on all the teeth.

[Pat Barry]

You learned saw filing from Happy Days? This thread has really jumped the shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark)...

EDIT: Add Wikipedia link in the unlikely event that somebody doesn't know the reference.
I was actually thinking Opie!