Purchasing Laser for Asset Marking and Other Projects

[Ross Harms]

Ok, I've been lurking and reading for a while, but this is my first post. I'm the IT director for a school district, and am in the market for a laser machine. The primary use (purchase justification) for it will be putting asset/property markings permanently on to smaller pieces of equipment such as laptops. We've got a couple hundred anodized aluminum MacBook Airs running around with no good way to mark them, and will be adding more (potentially a lot more) in the next few months. I've already got an approved budget of $5500, though I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to make a convincing enough case to try and get that bumped up some to get what we need. When I say bumped up some, I don't mean nearly enough to afford a US made machine. North of $10,000 for this purchase isn’t going to happen. On the other hand, direct import from China just won't work with our procurement system. So I'm firmly in the realm of US-ified Chinese machines.

A couple of other schools in the region have Full Spectrum machines, so that was where I started looking, but have pretty much ruled them out. Too many non-positive comments and, well, they just don’t seem to give much bang for the bucks. I’m basically down to bouncing in between a Boss Laser LS-1630 and a couple of models from Rabbit USA (RL-60-9060 or QX-40-7040 upgraded with 60w tube). I've also looked at Automation Technologies, but the biggest thing they show in a 60 watt is a 24"x16". In addition to MacBooks, we've also got iMacs that could use marking, and they're about 25.5" wide, so that 24" doesn't work so well. I don't need to be able to mark the whole back of them, but do need to be able to get them in the machine. I've also looked at MornTech USA. Their MT-L570 is a 60 watt laser which specs a 28”x20” work area (not engraving area, but work area) so it might work, and is a lot closer to fitting my approved budget, but I can’t seem to find much on the company, and their website descriptions are a bit shaky (really no more so than Auto Tech), so I’m leery of that.

The smaller 400mm-ish machines from Rabbit or Boss would fit the 27” iMac with the "foot" stand hanging out the front passthough. Then there's the RL-60-9060, which, at almost 24" x 36" engrave area is big enough to fit a 27" iMac completely inside with room to spare. Likely also fit whatever size comes next, which would be great. It would also nicely handle four MacBook Airs (9"x13" apprrox) at the same time (in a jig of some sort) for efficiency. Oh, and it's about the same price as the Boss LS-1630. Funny, as I'm typing that out, it's really seeming more and more like a foregone conclusion which way I should go.

But, I'm totally new to the laser world, and I’m spending other people's money, so really can't afford to make snap decisions. Looking at specs on a page, the Boss LS-1630 and the 60 watt Rabbit QX-40-7040 seem to be fairly similar machines. Wattage, engraving area, Z-Height, max resolution are all similar. The biggest difference I can see is the Rabbit uses LaserCut and a Leetro controller while the Boss uses LaserWorks and, I think, a Ruida controller. Ultimately, does that make me much difference? Like I say, primary purpose will be marking equipment, so fine detail stuff (smaller lettering, barcodes, and perhaps a logo) will be what I’m looking for there. But I also figure to do some signage projects out of Rowmark or something similar, and there’s no telling what other sorts of projects will come up as time goes by. As far as non-laser software goes, I’ve had a fair amount of experience creating vector art, but in Adobe Illustrator rather than CorelDraw. Most drawing programs are somewhat similar so I don’t figure Draw will be too hard to catch on to, but if I can come out of Illustrator which I already know, more’s the better. Laser software is a new thing though. Is LaserWorks really more up to date and/or easier to work with, or are they more similar than I may be thinking?

As far as machine wattage, does a 60 watt sound like what I’m looking for. I’m sure I’ll want to do some cutting of acrylic and thinner wood, but marking/engraving is my primary use, and I understand that higher wattage tubes can be problematic for that. What about lenses? A 50.8mm (2”) seems to be standard most everywhere, but should I look seriously at a 38.1mm (1.5”) for finer detail? I’m thinking I won’t ever need to go with anything longer than 2” focal length. But I could certainly be wrong.

Last question I’ve got for now would be chillers. The Boss comes with a basic water pump with the CW3000 and CW5000 available as extra cost upgrades. The Rabbit units by default come with the CW3000, but I’m guessing if I asked, could probably upgrade to the CW5000 for a bit of extra cash. The room I’m looking at setting the machine up in is air conditioned, but it is also a smaller space, so I’m thinking a freon chiller would be a better call than the simple ambient temp unit. Or is that not that big an issue for a 60 watt? I mean, having to take a little downtime between batches for the works to cool won’t be the end of the world. I’m not trying to make money with this or anything. But at the same time, efficient use of time is always good.

So, am I anywhere near the right track on my thinking? Any advice offered will be much appreciated. Like I say, this is new territory for me, so I’m just doing my best to make an informed decision. Thanks.

[Gary Hair]

Depending on the size of the area to be marked I'd probably charge about $10 each, do you have at least 550 items to mark? If not, you may be better off paying someone else to do the marking for you. You would save the initial outlay, avoid training, avoid maintenance, avoid lack of support when things go wrong, and unless you needed all 550 items marked this year you could spread the cost over a longer period of time. Sometimes it's nice to have your own machine, but my advice is that this may not be that time.

[John Blazy]

Listen to Gary above if you are not technically / machine oriented, and don't want to deal with machine maintenance. Ive only had my bunny laser for a few months, but for the price, it does all I need - cutting, engraving, etc. - would do all the nameplates you need - easy to understand the software. The big difference is that Ray personally set up my laser and the Lasercut 5.3 on my laptop and didn't leave my shop until I "got it". Not sure if he'll do that for a lower cost machine like you need, but talk to them. I like my bunny. came with a CW 5000 chiller.

[David Somers]

Ross,

I agree with Gary and John. Buying a laser for just this purpose is probably not the best use of your $$. To add to Gary and John's concerns above is the need to have someone on board who is able to operate the machine. You will want to have more than one user who is reasonably proficient with it or you risk it becoming a large paper weight if your sole knowledgable user transfers somewhere or is run over by a herd of cattle or something.

I recently retired from the Federal Govt in IT (The National Park Service) and can list off a long list devices that I saw in parks and regional offices that were purchased for single uses like this, with one user who knew how to use it who later left, and the use of the machine stopped because no one else knew what to do with it. The machine would then become my responsibility to deal with if they were ever going to make use of it again.

Since you are in a school district I am surprised the district or the larger school system doesn't have a property management system with ID tags in place that you need to use? The entire National Park Service used a bar coded property tag system that consisted of an extremely durable sticker with our agency name and property number and a scannable bar code on it. The sticker had a VERY tenacious adhesive on it that was difficult to remove without the item being damaged. And the tag was difficult to remove entirely since it was a segmented tag. If you could get a corner up you would eventually get a small section of the tag off before you reached the end of that segment and the tag separated leaving you to start again. We did have additional stickers we could place on items in out of the way places that identified the item as NPS property as well. In your case, the property tag could be placed on the item in a visible area, and then other tags could be hidden inside the case if needed for theft id.

We also maintained an agency wide database of all our property numbers for reference. And for the use of our IT staff we used a simple label printer to put the property number and a few other useful codes onto the machine in a place that didnt bother the user but was very visible to us. That helped us access the numbers without having to look for where the property number tag was placed. I could wander around an office and scan or glance at a property number using these labels whether the machine was open or closed without interfering with the users desk.

The property tag system applied to ANYTHING that was considered accountable property so it was universal for us.

And yes.....it did drive us crazy with the annual accounting of items we each had to make of items that were assigned to an individual. But it worked too when the policy was enforced. (and was a pain in the patoot when it wasn't enforced, as you might imagine)

If a sticker like this wouldn't work for you and you really want to lase the property info on the laptops and reallllllly want to buy a laser so you can do this in house I would recommend Rabbit as well. That is just me though.

Dave

[Keith Outten]

He is an IT Manager for a school district, i expect he will have plenty of work to keep a laser engraver very busy.
Property tags can be removed, direct engraving on laptops and other expensive items is the way to go.
I engraved laptops for Christopher Newport University when I worked in their sign shop, then I started making employee badges and the work list got longer and longer. Note that Johnson's Plastics will sell plastic and other engraving supplies to schools, other suppliers will not.

See if you can afford a small Trotec or Epilog laser.
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[Bert Kemp]

I've had my Rabbit 6040 / 60 tube for a year and a half now. Runs great so far easy to use. Ray set up my laptop and trained me for a day at his shop since I picked up my machine.
you can engrave 23.5 inches wide and as far a length about 30 inches will fit in the machine and close all doors. and still lower the table enough to do laptops and things like that. 60 watts is more then enough to engrave anodized Alum and will cut 1/4 wood and acrylic.

[Jerome Stanek]

what is the reason to go with a 60 watt unit 80 watts would also be something I would look at.

[Bill George]

I hate to spoil the fun but a hand held vibrating engraver for what? $20 or so can engrave just about anything, including tools and machines. Sure its not as fun, but we are talking your tax dollars at work.

[Jerome Stanek]

I hate to spoil the fun but a hand held vibrating engraver for what? $20 or so can engrave just about anything, including tools and machines. Sure its not as fun, but we are talking your tax dollars at work.

But that's not how the system works if you are allocated a said amount and you don't spend it then next year your budget is reduced by that much. I used to work for a large printer that printed a lot of collage papers and you should see how they would burn money at the end of the year just for that reason.

[Mike Null]

Or a Dremel with the flexible shaft.

[Kev Williams]

I'm kinda thinking he didn't come here to be talked out of buying a laser ;) -- and I wouldn't want to be engraving I-anything's with a frickin vibro-graver!

I've never tried to steer anyone towards Triumph, mostly because I'm the only one I know of who has one (except for Bob Silver(?) who no longer posts but is the reason I got one)...

I've had good luck with mine and I've never found anyone else who ever bought an 80 watt 1300x900 machine for less than 5 large total- but that was 2 years ago, not sure of current pricing. And I occasionally search for bad reviews on Triumphs, and I think one from a few years ago comes up, and that issue was taken care of. Not sure if they're fairly reliable, or if there's no data because nobody me me and a handful of others has ever bought one! ;)

My point being, I have no one to back me up on Triumph, nor do I know of anyone with a negative review. Also, I have no idea of their customer service pertaining to warrantee or repair issues. But if I email them, I get answered promptly. Awhile back I wanted some longer lens tubes made, they made them and shipped them within a few days.

For me, unlike most people, local customer service isn't all that necessary. But for those that it IS necessary, then based on what I've read on this forum, look to Boss or Rabbit, Thunderlaser or GWeike machines (off the top of my head).

From the pricing I've researched, I've found that most any machine you buy with US customer support will cost nearly or more than double a self-imported Chinese machine...

[Ross Harms]

Thanks for the responses Gentlemen, nothing worse than posting to a forum an hearing nothing but crickets in reply.

will do my best to respond to the concerns raised in sequence. I apologize in advance for the length.

I'm actually going to start with Keith Outten though, as he hit two big nails square on the head.
Nail 1 - Absolutely right, stick on property tags, I don't care what sort you use (we've tried several over the years), can be removed. You'd be amazed just how non-permanent a "permanent" sticker can be when in the presence of a high school kid who would rather sit and monkey with it than do their work. Let alone those who enjoy damaging things for the sake of damaging things or have more nefarious purposes in mind. Direct engraving is the way to go for permanent.

Nail 2 - What Keith said about starting doing one thing, that leading to something else, and the list just getting longer, yep, sounds about right. I have no doubt that as folks around the district find out we have a laser and see some of what it can do, things needing done will magically appear. To give an example, about 11 years ago, I bought our first large format inkjet printer for a CAD course that never got off the ground. The printer was bought, paid for, and taking up space in my storeroom, so I figured I'd set it up and see what we could do with it. I'd done a few small things with it when it came time for us to host a basketball tournament. The coach brought me his handwritten bracket and asked if I could "put it on my machine and blow it up big" for them to hang on the wall. I said sure, then I put together a nice bracket poster in Illustrator and printed them off a couple. Just about every tournament since then, I get called on for brackets and other signage as well as myriad other posters and banners for different things throughout the year. Luckily I like dabbling with graphic design, and as long as they ask well in advance so I have time, I'm glad to do it. It's all stuff that, if it meant going to an outside shop and paying them for it, would never happen. But since we've got the resources in house, it gets done. If this was strictly to mark assets, I'd agree, questionable purchase. But, like I said, that was just the primary justification for getting the boss to spend the money. I've already got some other uses in mind, and will be totally amazed if other folks don't add to my list.

Thanks for the tip on Johnson's Plastics. That's good to know. Would love to go Trotec or Epilog, but don't think I can sell that pricetag to the powers that be at this time.

Gary Hair - Do I have at least 550 items to mark? Yeah, actually, I do. By end of summer, I'll have at least 300 MacBooks around with more likely coming later in the year and more again the next year. Factor in other items that could use a good permenent marking, and 550 wouldn't be tough at all, though it's looking like it would be closer to 700 to balance the cost. Besides, there aren't any local shops I'm aware of that offer this service. Joys of living in a small town in semi-rural northeast Arkansas. Even if there was a shop, don't know how willing they would be to spend the time carefully matching the device serial numbers with the pre-assigned district asset IDs, as that's part of what we want to engrave. It's not a simple set it up and hit repeat a hundred times sort of job.

John Blazy - As far as being technically/machine oriented and handling maintenance, I don't anticipate that being a big problem. Unlike some IT folks, I like to get hands on with things. It's a nice break from staring at a screen. I do some woodworking (I built my computer, but I also built the desk it sits on) and I've spent many days installing projection systems and other equipment at work. I definitely know which end of a screwdriver is which, and am a whiz at following directions. Thanks for the recommendation on Rabbit. Haven't talked to them yet to know for sure what they will do and won't do.

David Somers - "Brain drain" from me leaving is definitely a potential issue. Honestly, if I were to leave, the laser engraver would be small potatoes compared to the rest of the stuff around here nobody else knows how to work. That just tends to be life in a small K-12 school system. Right, wrong, good, bad, it simply is what it is and we do the best we can with it.

As far as a property management system, we absolutely do have one. I happen to be the lucky soul in charge of maintaining it for the district. The vast majority of Capital equipment purchases in the last decade or so have fallen under the tech umbrella, so it was just easier for me to handle all of it than to have to fix all the errors made by someone else who had no idea what this stuff was. Like a whole mess of "beige box" computers that were listed by the serial number of their internal hard drive because that was the first serial number the clerk saw on the invoice. Goes back to that life in a small school district thing. And yes, once a year or so, I get to spend way, way too much time with our state financials auditor. Like I said above, we've tried various sticker tags over the years, and never found anything that held up well to the rigors of life in a school. The kids are just hard on them. And now we're going to be issuing laptops to the students to carry around, slip in and out of bags many times a day, and take home and such. Nope, as permanent a marking as we can get is the way to go.

Another recommendation for rabbit, thanks.

Bert Kemp - Thanks for the info, and the Rabbit recommendation. Wish I could pick it up rather than having it shipped, but Rabbit (and Boss and the rest) are all a bit too far from Arkansas to make that particularly feasible.

Jerome Stanek - Reason for 60 watts is, one, the price, and two, concerns about higher wattage tubes and problems engraving rather than cutting. I wouldn't mind an 80 watt, but don't think I can afford one.

As for the comment about "how the system works", that may be the case in some places (ok, yeah, it is), but it isn't in mine. My budget is whatever the superintendent feels like I need to spend in a year, and one year's budget has minimal effect on the next. In the case of the laser engraver, had it not been in the budget (and approved), the budget would just have been that much less. And if I decide not to buy it, I don't then get to spend that money on something else.

Bill George - I can give two good reasons for not using a cheapy vibrating engraver. The first is, simply, vibrating. To mark the district name and a property number on the shell of a laptop is at least a minute of concentrated, rapid vibration. Last thing I need is a bunch of brand new laptops acting flaky because my engraver vibrated their guts just enough to loosen the wrong thing. And to take the shell off to do it means removing and replacing about 15 tiny little screws. Times 300 laptops = No Thanks. The second reason is that doing a halfway decent and readable job 300 times over with a vibro pen (or Mike Null's Dremel with flexible shaft). Well, let's just say if you mentioned that to the poor ladies who had the honor of trying to teach me penmanship in Elementary School, they'd likely laugh in your face. And it hasn't improved a bit in the 30 or so years since.

As far as spoiling the fun, honestly, my first instinct was to tell you to take a flying leap. But, my longwindedness gave me some time to think, and I realized you are correct. Lasers are fun. I mean, that's why a lot of you guys are here, right? I'm looking forward to learning it and seeing what else I can come up with to do with it. Thing is, that "fun" is actually part of my job description. One of the perks really. It's part of my job to find cool new technologies, bring them in and learn them, and then share that with the teachers and students. Quick example: say the art teacher notices some of the things I've lasered up and asks me about it. I can offer to show it to her, give her some instruction in Illustrator (or even plain old MS Paint), and tell her if she wants to have her kids each design, say, a simple snowflake christmas ornament, that they can come down and we'll laser them out. Don't figure we'll let the kids get hands on with this machine, but if the *gasp* Glowforge does turn out to be half what it's cracked up to be, I could totally see picking one of those up in a couple of years and making it generally available. And just like that, the kids have a cool new project to do (and take home to impress Mom and Dad), the teacher has a new way to help meet her technology integration standards, and I've justified puchasing the laser (and paying my salary ;-). Everybody's happy. Granted that's a rosey hypothetical at this point, but definitely possible if we've got the resources available.

Kev Williams - You're right, that's not why I came here, but that's ok. Triumph is, I think, a Chinese-Chinese company? I know that the import it yourself route can sometimes be significantly cheaper, and if I were buying this for myself with my own money, I would probably be sorely tempted. But buying it for my employer, it just won't work. If I take the superintendent a purchase order with a pay to address in China and a stack of customs forms attached, I'll get looked at really, really strangely. I add on the fact that we have to pay in advance before the thing gets on the boat, and at best I'll probably get laughed out of the room. Nope, US based vendor of Chinese manufactured machines is the way we've got to go. And, while I've taught myself many things over the years, I'd be lying if I said having at least some support available wasn't a consideration. That's why I'm leaning pretty heavily toward Rabbit, I keep hearing good things about their support.

[Keith Pleas]

Wow. Read the first post, figured wrong place for this, then learned a ton about lasers and tagging. Nicely done Creekers! Filed away for future investigation...

[Timothy Kamp]

Have you looked at any budget fiber lasers? I just demoed one a few weeks ago and thought it would be cool to set up a mall kiosk business franchise for engraving phones and computers and ipads and the like using one. I have a bunch of CO2 lasers so I'm partial to them, but I liked it enough that I shot a video of it - so I just posted it on youtube for you. What I didn't publish was how safe it is - you can actually put your hand under it and it feels a bit warm, but doesn't burn you. I'm working at my local highschool to retrofit their new (used off ebay) 900x600 FSL machine with a new controller and one of the big things we're discussing with the school is how to make it safe enough that students could possibly use it. Not sure what you're going to end up choosing, but I was impressed with it and it might work out better for you than a big CO2 machine.
https://youtu.be/TRDpSG3TDnw
Final shot of some postage stamp sized engravings on a piece of metal.
333791

[Kev Williams]

safe for your hands maybe, but from what I understand, NOT safe for your eyes-- No one should look anywhere near a running fiber without the special safety glasses on or an enclosure around the thing...

I burned my mustache while watching my LS900 one day, and I was 3' from the beam spot... taught me a lesson on reflections...

[Phill Barnes]

Hi Ross
Just to add my two cents, don't overlook the 50 watt ebay laser cutter for $1525 USD inc shipping. It uses the Ruida RDC6442g controller.
Also checkout this video series
https://youtu.be/YvrMeUUzaBo


High-Precise-50W-CO2-Laser-Engraving-Cutting-Machine-Engraver-Cutter-USB-Port-CE-/200640422116?hash=item2eb719e0e4:g:syIAAOSwPcVVt3B J"]http://www.ebaydotcom/itm/High-Precise-50W-CO2-Laser-Engraving-Cutting-Machine-Engraver-Cutter-USB-Port-CE-/200640422116?hash=item2eb719e0e4:g:syIAAOSwPcVVt3B J

[Scott Shepherd]

What I didn't publish was how safe it is - you can actually put your hand under it and it feels a bit warm, but doesn't burn you. I'm working at my local highschool to retrofit their new (used off ebay) 900x600 FSL machine with a new controller and one of the big things we're discussing with the school is how to make it safe enough that students could possibly use it. Not sure what you're going to end up choosing, but I was impressed with it and it might work out better for you than a big CO2 machine.
https://youtu.be/TRDpSG3TDnw
Final shot of some postage stamp sized engravings on a piece of metal.
333791

Please don't tell anyone it's safe to put your hand under a fiber laser. That's VERY wrong and VERY dangerous. Fiber laser's wavelength can travel through organic materials (your skin) and hit internal things you don't want exposed to a laser.

It's also one of the most dangerous lasers in this business as far as your eyes. A reflection does not stimulate a blink reflex and will burn a spot on your retina that will never repair itself. It's not a device for a mall kiosk or a school unless it's enclosed or has the right safety measures in place to protect people's eyes and hands.

Please, please don't let anyone put their hands under it. That's a VERY bad thing.

[Keith Outten]

My job at CNU initially was to produce signs for all of the new buildings as the University replaced all of the old facilities. Our sign shop saved over $150,000 per year just from our ability to make ADA door signs. Eventually the workload kept expanding as the faculty found out that we have the capability to produce signs, engrave and provide other machining services. The savings to the University climbed continuously for several years until the amount of work exceeded my labor capacity. Rather than hiring additional employees the savings were redirected to other departments. It ended up being one of those situations where the harder I worked the deeper the hole got, even though my Supervisor was adamant about my priority being production for new buildings as he was responsible for all construction.

Believe me, the workload will increase and the savings will mount up quickly. The only question is will your personal time end up suffering just because you have acquired new production capability.
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