Bargain needle files

[Patrick Chase]

And now a brief public service announcement...

Sometimes vendors on Amazon hilariously misprice stuff. This is one of those times: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001P0QZ8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

If you ignore the description and look up the P/N you'll find that Bahco 2-302-16-2-0 is a 6", three-square, cut-2 needle file made in Switzerland. It's a bit short (I get 2-3/4" of usable blade when the file is in a guide) but otherwise perfect for saw sharpening.

I ordered a box for kicks, and frankly expected to get only one and have to return it. Instead I received a box of 10 as advertised. Bahco's needle files don't have the best reputation, but at this price it's hard to go wrong IMO.

I also have a box of the 7" version (2-302-18-2-0) on order from another vendor. Alas they weren't quite so determined to go bankrupt ($75/box).

[Tom M King]

daggone, I think I just paid, including shipping about 15 bucks for one of the little ones not long ago. Thanks for posting that.

[Patrick Chase]

daggone, I think I just paid, including shipping about 15 bucks for one of the little ones not long ago. Thanks for posting that.

The benchmark in terms of quality is the Grobet/Glardon/Vallorbe 7-3/4" file. Those go for $12 or so individually (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1,320,43072,43089,69854) and $9.50 or so by the dozen if you shop around, so that's realistically the most you should spend. Unfortunately they're back-ordered basically everywhere at the moment, which is why I'm experimenting with the 6" and 7" Bahcos.

[george wilson]

You may well find that the ad is an error. A few years ago 12 packs of files were advertised in several laces including Amazon for a low price. The response everyone who ordered them was "damaged in warehouse". The price was for ONE file. And,it was a worthless BUTTER SOFT Mexican Nicholson. I know because I tried one. You could EASILY file the teeth off the new file with an old USA one. About 1/32" deep,well below the tooth line,you finally got to hard steel.

[Stewie Simpson]

I was under the impression that all Bahcho files; including their range of 3 square files were made in Portugal.

blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/taper-saw-files/index.html (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/taper-saw-files/index.html)

[Tom M King]

It seems really odd that the ship date on that Amazon page is a month away. I didn't know it took a month to get anything any more, even on a slow boat from China.

The one little needle file I ordered recently was advertised as a made in Switzerland Nicholson. That, in itself, sounded a bit odd to me. I've just been too busy to try it yet.

[Patrick Chase]

I was under the impression that all Bahcho files; including their range of 3 square files were made in Portugal.

blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/taper-saw-files/index.html (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/taper-saw-files/index.html)

The needle files that Isaac sells aren't Bahcos - they're Glardon/Grobet/Vallorbe (he lists them as "Glardon"). The file listed on that page is the same physical part as the 7-3/4" Grobet that LV sells.

EDIT: Now that I look more closely, LV is no longer selling the Grobet. The needle file in the picture (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1,320,43072,43089,69854) appears to be a Bahco 2-302-18-2-0. It's identifiable as a Bahco because the picture shows a smooth shaft with printed markings, and as that specific part by length and cut. Grobet/Glardon/Vallorbe needle files like the one Isaac sells have multiple bands of knurling and engraved markings.

[Patrick Chase]

It seems really odd that the ship date on that Amazon page is a month away. I didn't know it took a month to get anything any more, even on a slow boat from China.

The one little needle file I ordered recently was advertised as a made in Switzerland Nicholson. That, in itself, sounded a bit odd to me. I've just been too busy to try it yet.

As far as I can tell there are a small number of factories in the world that make needle files, and they're all in Switzerland. For that matter there may just be one factory making needle files for everybody.

Nicholson's needle files are indeed Swiss made. I have a couple, and the markings, knurling, and tooth pitch/pattern are identical to the Grobets. I can't tell any difference in performance either.

The Bahcos have slightly different markings and knurling, but very similar toothing.

EDIT: I ordered these files on Sunday 2/20 and got them today. At the time they showed a few more in stock, but not anymore. The vendor here is pretty sketchy - I'd never buy from them directly. It would appear I need to try these out on some saws...

[Patrick Chase]

You may well find that the ad is an error. A few years ago 12 packs of files were advertised in several laces including Amazon for a low price. The response everyone who ordered them was "damaged in warehouse". The price was for ONE file. And,it was a worthless BUTTER SOFT Mexican Nicholson. I know because I tried one. You could EASILY file the teeth off the new file with an old USA one. About 1/32" deep,well below the tooth line,you finally got to hard steel.

Those are all the things I was worried about when I ordered, but as I already said above I am physically in possession of the files as of today.

Dimensions, tothing pitch/pattern, and markings are all identical to other Bahco needle files in my possession. If they're counterfeits they're the best-executed ones I've ever seen.

As a totally unscientific test I used the tip of a Grobet needle file (the part that's normally hidden by my guide) to try to cut notches into the corners of both a second Grobet and one of the "Bahcos" I received today. I cut into them in the smooth part just below where the toothing starts, and used a separate and pristine/unused corner of the "attacking" Grobet on each of them. I don't see any difference in hardness - both of them de-toothed the "attacking" Grobet while suffering almost no damage in return, which is what you'd expect when the file and material being filed are of similar hardness. They certainly aren't "BUTTER SOFT".

As I said, if they're counterfeits they're amazingly accurate and good ones.

[george wilson]

I said NICHOLSON files from Mexico that I got were BUTTER SOFT. Not Bahcos. Maybe I should not have confused anyone by recounting the story of that screw up on Amazon.

My real concern was that the number of files in the box would turn out to be a mistake,and you'd really get ONE file.

Older members of this forum will remember the file fiasco about this "number in the box" that went on years ago. And,everywhere I saw these Mexican Nicholsons advertised,they ALL said 12 per box. But,they really meant only ONE per box.

So,I suggest that you read my ORIGINAL,UNEDITED post



Number 4 above. I'd say it's your fault,not mine if you thought I meant BAHCO files. Who ever said they could be COUNTERFEITS?

As I mentioned some time ago,I THINK the Mexican made Nicholsons may have now solved their problems. The parent company contacted me about the problem with their sending out SOFT files,and a few months ago I bought a Nicholson 8" bastard file,and it was PERFECT and PROPERLY hardened. But,there may still be old stock soft Mexican Nicholsons on some shelves,so I urge caution if you buy one. Test it with an OLD USA made Nicholson to verify that it is hard.

[Patrick Chase]

I said NICHOLSON files from Mexico that I got were BUTTER SOFT. Not Bahcos. Maybe I should not have confused anyone by recounting the story of that screw up on Amazon.

My real concern was that the number of files in the box would turn out to be a mistake,and you'd really get ONE file.

Older members of this forum will remember the file fiasco about this "number in the box" that went on years ago. And,everywhere I saw these Mexican Nicholsons advertised,they ALL said 12 per box. But,they really meant only ONE per box.

So,I suggest that you read my ORIGINAL,UNEDITED post



Number 4 above. I'd say it's your fault,not mine if you thought I meant BAHCO files. Who ever said they could be COUNTERFEITS?

As I mentioned some time ago,I THINK the Mexican made Nicholsons may have now solved their problems. The parent company contacted me about the problem with their sending out SOFT files,and a few months ago I bought a Nicholson 8" bastard file,and it was PERFECT and PROPERLY hardened. But,there may still be old stock soft Mexican Nicholsons on some shelves,so I urge caution if you buy one. Test it with an OLD USA made Nicholson to verify that it is hard.

Whoa, that went horribly wrong.

I was actually implicitly agreeing with you that those (and counterfeiting - it happens) are legitimate concerns and explaining what I'd done so far to confirm that none of them had happened.

As I said in my very first post before you replied at all: "I ... frankly expected to get only one and have to return it".

[george wilson]

not intended to sound harsh,Patrick. But I guess it did.

[Patrick Chase]

not intended to sound harsh,Patrick. But I guess it did.

No problem - thank you as always for your thoughts. Like I said, I expected to see exactly what you described.

[Patrick Chase]

A quick update: I used one of the files to reprofile and sharpen a saw last night. It worked fine and seemed to hold up as well as my other Bahco needle files. I don't think they're quite as good in the Grobets in that respect, but they're close and certainly good enough to be cost effective.

FWIW I sharpened my "beater" dovetail saw (a 20 tpi 8" Crown) that I use when experimenting with new toothings. I gave it a hybrid filing with 20 tpi pitch, progressive rake (10 deg for first 2", 5 deg for rest), and 10 deg fleam. Set is 5 mils total, 2.5/side (which is the minimum my 42X can achieve with the anvil all the way up). I realize the combination of minimal rake and higher fleam is a bit unconventional, but it cuts pretty fast for a 20 tpi saw, still starts reasonably easily on the toe, and gives cleaner edges on the backside than a simple rip filing.

[george wilson]

You know,I have NO IDEA WHAT SHAPE those needle files are. The picture shows the rounded side of a half round or possibly CROSSING needle file. The printed material says SQUARE CUT. Then,further down it says "The TRIANGULAR FILES TAPER TO A POINT". Or words to that effect!

So,Patrick,why don't you mention to the forum what shape the files actually are? Not that I want to buy any,but others might benefit.

[Patrick Chase]

You know,I have NO IDEA WHAT SHAPE those needle files are. The picture shows the rounded side of a half round or possibly CROSSING needle file. The printed material says SQUARE CUT. Then,further down it says "The TRIANGULAR FILES TAPER TO A POINT". Or words to that effect!

So,Patrick,why don't you mention to the forum what shape the files actually are? Not that I want to buy any,but others might benefit.

I addressed that in my very first message where I said: "If you ignore the description and look up the P/N you'll find that Bahco 2-302-16-2-0 is a 6", three-square, cut-2 needle file made in Switzerland"

[george wilson]

Thank you for clearing that up.

I wish the gerbels who write product information ......

[Patrick Chase]

And now a brief public service announcement...

Sometimes vendors on Amazon hilariously misprice stuff. This is one of those times: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001P0QZ8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

If you ignore the description and look up the P/N you'll find that Bahco 2-302-16-2-0 is a 6", three-square, cut-2 needle file made in Switzerland. It's a bit short (I get 2-3/4" of usable blade when the file is in a guide) but otherwise perfect for saw sharpening.

I ordered a box for kicks, and frankly expected to get only one and have to return it. Instead I received a box of 10 as advertised. Bahco's needle files don't have the best reputation, but at this price it's hard to go wrong IMO.

I also have a box of the 7" version (2-302-18-2-0) on order from another vendor. Alas they weren't quite so determined to go bankrupt ($75/box).

WARNING: Being a bit of a hoarder I tried to get another box of these, but a single file showed up today. It would appear to be a bit of a lottery as to whether you get one or a box (or the vendor finally did the math and realized they're hosing themselves). Return time...

My apologies to anybody who gets similarly hosed because I pointed this out.

[george wilson]

Repeat about the GERBELS!!!!:):):)

And,if you see these same files advertised elsewhere,the same foul up will be seen. Amazing that they keep repeating the same mistakes as before about the # in a box.

[Patrick Chase]

Repeat about the GERBELS!!!!:):):)

And,if you see these same files advertised elsewhere,the same foul up will be seen. Amazing that they keep repeating the same mistakes as before about the # in a box.

It's a lottery IMO. I've tried this 4 times so far (2 with these, 2 with ohers) and gotten the full box of 10 twice. The other 2 I've had (or will have in this case) to return, but I'm still way up overall. In fact I'd still be way up even if I hadn't returned the ones that weren't as advertised.