Someone talk me out of a Kapex

[Rick Contonio]

So, I'm thinking a new miter saw may be in my future. I have an old 8" Hitachi that has served me well, but I find I'm wanting something larger and more precise. I have no doubt the Kapex is a great saw, but at 2-3 times the cost of a Bosch or DeWalt?

The saw will stay in my shop and be used for furniture and personal items. I won't move it around or use it to make a living.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Kapex really shines in doing finish quality miter and compound miter cuts; complex molding/millwork installs. It is really liked for on site work because it is easy to move (light). Arguably, you would do things on site! :D

I like it because it does a pretty good job with dust collection. Most people say that the primary advantages are portability, which you do not need, cut quality, and dust reduction.

I see more people complain about the Bosch gear having little issues (say with accuracy) than Festool people. With Festool you have a 30 day trial period in general, but, if you are thinking about that, try to purchase locally so it is easier to return if you desire.

Finally, I do not see where you live, but if you want to try my Kapex here in Columbus Ohio, let me know.

[Chris Hachet]

No, I will not try to talk you out of a Kapex. Going to be doing the PB and J thing for lunches soon as I love the Festool tools I already have and want more.

[John Goodin]

Get a Bosch glider and take the leftover and put it towards a Domino. There, I talked you out of a Kapex but figured a way for you to spend more money.

[John TenEyck]

+1 on the Bosch. It's big and heavy which is of no consequence to you. It cuts great, which is, and costs way less than a Kapex.

Or, find yourself an old Dewalt or similar RAS and have a saw that can run circles around any miter saw. And you'll spend less than even the Bosch.

John

[Tom M King]

Home Depot has this one in stores for $249 if dollars matter: http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-15-Amp-12-in-Sliding-Compound-Miter-Saw-DWS779/206541015

[Rich Engelhardt]

I have a .357 magnum.
I can hand load that mini cannon to some pretty nuclear levels (its' a Ruger Blackhawk).

Try as I might though, I'll never make that .357 Magnum a .35 Remington.
Ain't going to happen.

A Kapex is a wonderful tool, but, try as it might, it will never be a radial arm saw.
Ain't going to happen.

Now in another corner of the world - I can go out and buy a Ruger SP101 - another very robust 5 shot pocket gun.
I can load it to some pretty rock em sock em levels & slip it in my coat pocket and have it with me where ever I go.
(assuming all legalities of concealed carry are observed).

Try as it might though, that Marlin 336 Lever action rifle, in .35 Remington ain't going into anyone's pocket!

For the un-gun folks.
The .357 magnum is a handgun cartridge and the .35 Remington is a rifle cartridge.
They both shoot the same sized bullet, but, the rifle bullet travels roughly twice as fast.



Or - run to the store and take a Kapex and pull it out to full extension. Notice that it has some side to side play.....
Granted. not a lot, but, it still has it....

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Try as it might though, that Marlin 336 Lever action rifle, in .35 Remington ain't going into anyone's pocket!


Maybe you just need a larger pocket :-)

[Martin Wasner]

I won't move it around or use it to make a living.

I was just watching a used Omga on IRS Auctions. Too far for me to drive, but it went for about $800 in Massachusetts. If it had been closer I would've snatched it up for that kind of money. Ten times the saw the Kapex could ever hope to be. If you're not going to be moving it, its a much higher quality chop saw. The 12" isn't made anymore which is a bummer, but the last ones were like $3500, that's twice a Kapex in cost, but it's still a better value. I've got one that is used daily in a cabinetshop, it's currently our only cutoff saw, it was made in 1994 and I've had to tinker with some bad contacts in the switch, and replace the drive belt. It's a 200# bulletproof chop saw. I need a couple more and when you're looking for them, they are never for sale it seems. But keep your eyes peeled, they do come up once in a while, even on craigslist.


The Kapex is really nice. But it's not a good value in my book. I don't hold dust collection for a mitresaw as anything all that important to me. Things like a laser have little to no value for me as well. It a shop environment I'm either cutting from a stop or to a mark, and dust collection is taken care of by a hood on the saw so there's negative pressure sucking anything fine back, and bigger chunks that don't make it into the pipe are easily removed with an airhose.



That 8" Hitachi is one of my favorite saws.

[Charles P. Wright]

When I had to replace my Ryobi CMS last year, because my wife chose a 5 1/4" high base molding and I didn't have the height to cut it I looked at the Dewalt 12" and the Kapex. I chose the Dewalt because it had sufficient clearance to cut vertically against the fence; and the Kapex did not.

[Jeff Monson]

I've owned my kapex for a few years. Its a really nice saw......but I would have to say that if time was turned back, I would look hard at the Bosch. I mainly got the kapex for use
with my festool vac, the DC is not bad but its not great either. I love my Festool stuff but the kapex is my least favorite.

[Jebediah Eckert]

I was able to talk myself out of the Kapex. I also do not move it around. There are better things in my shop that I use for accurate miters, and cross cuts. I find I use my Bosch slider for rough lumber, and not much more. When I upgraded my old craftsman chop saw I paid about $300 on CL for a nearly new Bosch slider with a new a Chopmaster blade, leaving me about $1,000 leftover to figure out that dust collection thing. The Kapex definitely excels at dust collection from what I have seen, but it isn't as good as the other Festool offerings as far as DC goes, IMO. You can always build a hood behind the Bosch.

The Bosch glide is nice because it takes up less room off the wall. If you intend to come right off your saw with a finish joint then accuracy is going to be most important to you, and that is different then how I use it. Based on SMC members threads I don't think there are too many that rely on that type of saw for finished cuts.

[Robert Engel]

Dittos on what Jeb ^ said.

That's easy one for me. For twice the cost of a Bosch, is it twice the saw?
That goes for the routers and everything else Festool makes.

I do like the Domino, though. Just can't justify the cost.

[Jim German]

That's easy one for me. For twice the cost of a Bosch, is it twice the saw?
That goes for the routers and everything else Festool makes.

I do like the Domino, though. Just can't justify the cost.

For most of the Festool lineup, yes they're twice the tools.

The Kapex, I just don't see it though. If it were a 12" saw maybe, but its got to many compromises to be worth the premium for me.

[Greg R Bradley]

It is going to be hard to justify a Kapex for personal use. It is going to depend on your requirements and what features that you must have.

I justified mine but that was before the last price increase. I paid $1250, which is really $1000 when you factor in the angle finder and the fact that it is the only saw that doesn't need an expensive blade added for fine work.

Portability and light weight matter to some but not to me for my use.

One major feature that justified it for me was dust collection. It is the best by far, particularly in the amount of dust NOT thrown at the user or in the air. None of the sliders come close but a few non-sliders with large dust ports low and directly behind the blade come fairly close.

Adjustable speed and speed that doesn't change under load were important to me for non-wood cutting. Clearly may not matter at all to most.

Close to the wall was big deal for me. The Bosch Glide is 1"+ deeper fence to wall and much deeper overall when in the 90* normal position. Of course it will also cut wider material. The 10" isn't quite as wide overall but gains nothing fence to wall distance. Several non-sliders beat the Kapex fence to wall distance by 2-3" but some of them require some of that clearance to adjust bevel angle.

Accuracy was important but most good non-sliders will come close or equal the Kapex since they don't have the additional leverage and movement in the slider. An OMGA doesn't slide for a reason.

The C10FSH 10" Japanese Hitachi slider is just as accurate as the Kapex but takes up lots of space and has marginal dust collection. They are about $900 and still need $130 for a blade to match the Kapex standard. Don't think the Chinese C10FSHPS that is $500 is anywhere decent at all.

The Dewalt DW717 is similar to the Hitachi but built in China to a higher standard than Hitachi builds their own cheap version. This saw is discontinued and in some HD for $249. Hard to beat that saw for the money.

[Tom Ewell]

If you go over to the FOG, you will see a lot of discussion about the Kapex.

As always, most love it and some really hate it, the primary problems (in my view) being failed motor problems which no one has come up with an explanation for and of course the expectation of 'perfection' for a saw costing as much as it does.

Mine has been in service since 2010. I've checked mine for every problem listed at the FOG and found it be without except for some of the inconsequential casting foibles.

Essentially, if one were to compare it to the other top of the line models from the 'major brands' for this type of saw feature for feature the Kapex might be considered a notch above, how to place actual value to this is the decision a potential buyer makes.

Does it somehow 'cut' better than the others, not particularly if all is setup and used the same.

In my view, it is not a particularly robust saw, it is meant to be a refined trim saw. If you're going to expect it to frame houses or build decks all day and throw it into the back of the truck at quittin' time then perhaps look elsewhere. Not saying one couldn't just saying I wouldn't.

What I like about it

Did not have to initially upgrade the blade, the supplied blade (rebranded Leitz I believe) is excellent.
Very well 'tuned' from the factory but I have tweaked it some over the years.
The sharp lasers, not everyone's 'must have' but I like them and once dialed in the cut line is 'there' on both sides.
The cut controls, bevel adjustments are fantastic, miter controls are similar to other brands.
Compact and lighter weight, nice to have when going to the job site..... (can throw it even further into the back of the truck ;))
Smooth action through out, with maintenance remains so, mostly just dust outs and minor lubrication.
Clamp, surprisingly I use it quite often, the best of any brand I've witnessed, don't think I can even find the ones for my other saws.
It came with the 'angle finder' don't use it often but comes in handy when needed, similar to the Bora so value wise add that to the cost comparison.
I added the extensions/crown stops, should be included, cost extra but like them.
Dust control, not 100% with my Fein or Festool vacs but best I've witnessed compared to others.
The adjustment for depth limiting of cut is great, not a feature used a lot but it is there and very accurate.
Flying cutoffs and kickback is not particularly better or worse than any saw I used and can be mitigated with proper use and auxiliary fences.
Probably a few more items to the list just can't think of more for now.

What I don't like

The price (of course). I have been very pleased with my kit of other Festools in terms of quality and expected longevity, adding the feature set of the Kapex I considered the 'investment' worthwhile.
The potential for the motor problems some have experienced. Frankly, before reading about them I never considered this. How many and under what circumstances it occurs is unkown to me. Some have bailed on a perfectly good saw based on 'fear', some are waiting for a solution before buying. One guy is paying to have his saw fixed despite multiple failures just to get it back. (go figure, eh?)

I'll just keep plugging along with mine fully satisfied with it's performance and it's still going strong after six years.....we'll see.

[Mike Henderson]

I got a Kapex at a discount - a bit less than 70% of new - and I wondered if I was making the right decision. I've had it for a few months now.

It's a good accurate saw and easy to adjust. I like the additional crosscut that I get compared to my non-slider 12" Bosch that I had before. I'm pleased with the saw and enjoy using it.

But if I had to pay full freight, I'd look at the alternatives a lot closer. The Kapex is just too expensive compared to competitive saws - and I don't see why. It just can't cost that much to make the components compared to competitive saws. It looks like you're paying a lot of money just for the Festool name.

Mike

[William M Johnson]

Cut quality and dust collection. I build furniture and the cuts are amazing. I used to have to use my miter plane and shooting board on everything now I never use them. I can cross cut 2" walnut and the cut is shiny with zero tool marks.

My $0.02

bill

[Greg R Bradley]

Festool almost seems to work at appearing expensive since they don't offer the base Kapex in the US. If they did, it would be $1030, which is more inline with the competitors, when you factor in the supplied blade and warranty. My opinion is that if you consider other saws to actually BE competitors, then you don't need the unique features enough to consider the Kapex.

They just spend too much money on features that mainly benefit an on-site finish carpenter. How much extra does it cost to make the saw from Magnesium instead of Aluminum to save a few pounds? How much extra for speed control and lasers that actually work properly? If you don't need the angle finder, why pay for it?

There isn't anything else that has that feature set but then most people don't NEED that feature set in a shop. I have to think most shops would be better off spending that money on a nice 10" CMS plus a good blade, a tracksaw and an MFT. If you aren't being fanatical about dust collection then there are lots of other alternatives for lots less money. Of course, most of them don't move to a job site easily.

[Randy Viellenave]

I don't know if they still make it anymore, but the Hitachi C12LSH has been an excellent tool for me. I upgraded from the 8" somewhere around '06 and would never look back. As with most of the other saw mentioned, dust collection is an afterthought.

[Brad Shipton]

The DC is great compared to others, but the Kapex is not enough better overall than my old Bosch to warrant the cost.

[Chris Padilla]

The Kapex and the routers are two areas of Festool I've managed to stay away from. My DeWalt 705 (12" CMS bought at Costco a bazillion years ago for "I have no idea") and my plethora of PC routers (and a Bosch Colt) have all worked just fine and dandy and I can't see replacing them quite yet although I know for a fact the dust collection would be better with the F tools. I guess I have enough Festool owing just about everything else they make. That is enough and Kapex just costs way too much. If it was under a grand, I'd likely have one. That said, I keep kicking around picking up the Bosch Glider.

[Tom Ewell]

Greg makes excellent points, if the saw is to be 'shop bound' then the portability of the Kapex is moot, however the footprint of the saw might be a benefit for limited spaces.

A shop install can also be made to be dust collection friendly in varying ways/amounts for most any saw.

I also agree with the feature set need in the shop, however I still use the feature set of the Kapex quite often in the shop sans the miter finder which I use infrequently anyway.

The lasers.... perhaps not needed in the shop but I can put a mark(s) most anywhere at any angle on the stock and line up the cut without eyeballing a blade tooth. But could live without them, did so for decades.

There are also ways to replace the included clamp, which is $80 to buy one fresh, could live without it.

The additional table extensions, which add even more to the cost can be done without in the shop but they also accept 'track saw' style clamps which is handy.

I rarely use the speed control but soft start is valued and probably included now with the other saws.

If I were in the market again and knew the saw would primarily stay in the shop I'd strongly consider something like the Bosch glide, which I'm pretty sure was not yet available for purchase when I picked up the Kapex.

[Rick Contonio]

All great input. Thanks everyone.

[guy knight]

had a kapex it would never stay aligned they sent me the parts still didnt then i sent it in and after having it for 4 years of medium use it needed a new motor gear box and other parts and it still didnt stay aligned sold it bought a 12" glide the slide was so lose it cut an s pattern tried another the table was way out bought the dewalt DWS780 set it up now its dead on and stays that way i use it in a one man cabinet shop i might add i paid as much for it as i paid to get the kapex fixed

[william walton]

can't comment on the Kapex; the only Festool I have is a hand planer that developed bearing noise in its first month of use. I do have the 12" Bosch glider and it is very accurate. I liked the fact that it takes up less room, in a 2 car garage very important to me.

[Davis Young]

Okay, I'll try to talk you out of it and I won't use price as an argument. The trigger lock is a hassle and actually counterintuitive. The power trigger is where you expect it to be: at your index/middle fingers when you grip the handle. Additionally, there's a trigger lock where your thumb would be while gripping the handle. When you want to make a cut while the blade is up, you would thumb the trigger lock, pull the trigger, and plunge. Cutting happens, no problems there. However there are times when you want to plunge the blade without firing it up (man can't live by laser alone). So naturally you would thumb the trigger lock and...nothing. Because the trigger lock is not a plunge lock as one would expect. To plunge without spinning the blade, you would actually press the trigger normally associated with turning on the saw...yet it won't spin the blade, it'll just allow you to plunge the blade without turning on the saw. Like I said, totally counterintuitive. And when it does turn on, the soft start seems like it takes forever to get going. I understand the need for soft start on hand helds like sanders and routers, but for a miter saw, I have never wished I had it.

Another thing is the crown moulding attachments. These sits on bed extensions and the bed extensions sit in v channels on either end of the saw. Which is fine until you realize the UG extensions for holding long boards sit in the same v channels so you'd have to pick one or the other. It doesn't make sense since crown mouldings jobs almost always require long support.

And finally, my last complaint is about the fence. When doing non through cuts like half laps and dadoes, the saw blade doesn't cut all the way, leaving a curved ramp towards the fence. Miter saw users know to put in a spacer to bring forward the work so the cut is consistent. And Kapex users have to do the same, but considering the price (sorry, I guess I had to bring money into this) it's certainly overlooked and not what I expect from Festool. And it could be addressed like this: why not instead of a conventional miter saw fence, use a two-way aluminum extrusion like in European table saw and band saw fences so that when laid down in the flat position, the fence would push the workpiece out thus replacing the clunky step of clamping a spacer block? This seems like exactly the type of problem Festool addresses all the time with their usually excellent design and engineering yet they missed an opportunity in my opinion.

[Richard Shaefer]

I'll also talk you out of it, but I'll use ration with a sprinkling of price, and this is coming from a guy with a lot of green cool-aid in his shop.

If you MUST have a slider, then look at the Bosch. There is no excuse for any saw manufacturers to make a saw that takes up that much real estate with slide bar stick-out. Only Bosch and Festool get that right (there's one Dewalt slider from the old Elu brand, too, but good luck finding one).

the Bosch is no more or less accurate than the Festool. This I know, I've used both. NEITHER saw is as accurate as a non-sliding chop saw. It's not make, it's not brand, it's just physics. If you can live with a 12" chop instead of a 10" slide, then get the chop. Dewalt makes a fantastic 12" chop that's rock solid. Yes, sometimes there is a good reason that they are the industry standard, and they get the chop saws right.

Financially speaking, ANY 10" slider or 12" chop or slider is going to weigh buckets. Yeah, the festool is a bit lighter, but not by much, and it's still huge and awkward. With the money you save buying pretty much anything else except a Festool Kapex, you will have enough money left over for the little Dewalt 7.25" cordless slider, which is, in my opinion, the absolute best portable jobsite trim saw on the market for both portability and accuracy, period. Even after buying a shop saw and a jobsite saw, you're still only half-way to a kapex, so the answer should be pretty easy.

[Harvey Miller]

Here’s a negative few points to consider.
The kapex has the reputation (on the festool forums) of needing the armatures replaced at fairly frequent intervals; some professional users seem have them replaced every couple of years (or less). If it’s done out of warranty I’ve heard it’s an eight hundred dollar repair.
Festool advertises free shipping for repairs during the (3 year) warranty period. That only covers warranty repairs, otherwise you pay to get it back from Indiana.
Festool service costs something like $260US an hour (that’s converted from Canadian).
The Kapex is somewhat prone to spitting small offcuts back at you.
The Kapex’s blade housing is fairly thin plastic. I don’t know of another miter saw that uses plastic for that piece. Every other one I’ve looked at used cast metal. If you do get kickback, expect some plastic damage. In the UK kickback damage is apparently considered a warranty repair, not so in North America.