Shellac on tung oil or tung oil on shellac?

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Im ready to finish a coffee table from Elm burl. The finish coat is going to by water based poly varhish ultra matt.

I can´t decide if I should begin with tung oil, then shellac and the poly at the end, or begin with shellac, then oil and then poly.?

The tung oil is pure and the shellac is dewaxed.

[Prashun Patel]

If your goal of the tung is to warm the color in a way your waterbased finish will not, then the proper series would be:

tung,
shellac to seal,
waterbased poly.

Don't try to apply a 'layer' of tung. Wipe on enough to soak in evenly, but wipe it all off the surface so it dries completely without creating a soft layer upon which the harder shellac or poly will not like to rest.

I urge you to try that series on a test piece next to a second test of just shellac (assuming it's blonde or darker) followed by your poly. If your surface is properly prepared, I suspect you will have a difficult time (as I do) to tell the difference. The shellac has a similar ability to the oil to pop grain.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Thanks, I will test it first

[Howard Acheson]

Why do you want to use Tung Oil? It takes 2-3 weeks to dry to the point where it can be overcoated. The shellac and waterborne will bring an amber color which will "pop" the grain.

Just for you future information. An oil whether tung oil or linseed oil requires application to virgin wood. It needs to penetrate into the wood and any film finish will prevent its absorption. So the rule is * Oil First *

[Jerry Olexa]

As Prashun said, Good regimen, schedule

[Paul Fisicaro]

So if lets say I used tung oil on an wooden box and wanted to too coat it with shellac. How long would you have to wait for the tung oil to dry? (It's minwax tung oil, Home Cheapo stuff)

I've only applied one coat of tung oil to the inside of the lid. I don't want to use shellac on the inside because I'm think it's going to be a pain in the butt to sand then reapply then repeat 3 times but if tung oil takes 3 weeks to dry I might not use it at all..

Do you think I should just use tung oil in the inside and shellac on the outside?


Thanks!!

[Jerry Olexa]

Its important that it be thoroughly dry before proceeding.....With BLO, I wait minimum 1 week or till I smell the oil no more..Be patient

[Scott Holmes]

MinWax Tung oil Finish is and oil/varnish blend; aka Danish oil. FYI the oil in this product is linseed oil; the only "Tung oil" is in the name on the label.

Give it at least a week before the shellac... TIP: A de-waxed garnet shellac will give it more color, seal it; be ready to top coat in an hour. You could also add a bit of dye the blond shellac for color if the garnet is too dark.

[Randy Goodhew]

MinWax Tung oil Finish is and oil/varnish blend; aka Danish oil. FYI the oil in this product is linseed oil; the only "Tung oil" is in the name on the label.


This is NOT true. :(

Blessings

[Scott Holmes]

Randy,

Would be please be more specific...
What part(s) of my statement are you disputing?

I have the MSDS sheets and Tech Data sheets for this product; maybe you could enlighten us on the details you have on this product, that we are missing...

[Randy Goodhew]

Randy,

Would be please be more specific...
What part(s) of my statement are you disputing?

I have the MSDS sheets and Tech Data sheets for this product; maybe you could enlighten us on the details you have on this product, that we are missing...

Please post a copy or link to the MSDS that you are referencing.

[Chip Byrd]

http://www.minwax.com/document/MSDS/en/027426475007

[Stew Hagerty]

This is NOT true. :(

Blessings

Respectfully, most "Tung Oils" are not true Tung Oil. They are, as Scott stated, oil/varnish blends. I'm not certain how this practice ever got started, but it can be very confusing. Truthfully, I do have some Pure Tungsten Oil on my shelf, but I rarely used it. I typically instead reach for the venerable BLO. Of course I rarely use a straight oil finish either. The times when I did use the Pure Tung Oil were when I WAS using the lil alone as the finish, because it is a clearer oil than BLO. Multiple coats do not darken the wood as much as BLO does.

[Randy Goodhew]

http://www.minwax.com/document/MSDS/en/027426475007

What is the answer?

[Randy Goodhew]

Respectfully, most "Tung Oils" are not true Tung Oil. They are, as Scott stated, oil/varnish blends. I'm not certain how this practice ever got started, but it can be very confusing. Truthfully, I do have some Pure Tungsten Oil on my shelf, but I rarely used it. I typically instead reach for the venerable BLO. Of course I rarely use a straight oil finish either. The times when I did use the Pure Tung Oil were when I WAS using the lil alone as the finish, because it is a clearer oil than BLO. Multiple coats do not darken the wood as much as BLO does.

Don't confuse "Tung Oil FINISH" with "Tung Oil". This is a CONTAINS versus IS problem.
Also, it appears to be a problem with not completely reading the label.

Chicken Soup is not chicken.
It contains chicken.

Besides, I prefer Pure Titanium Oil to Tungsten Oil. :)

Blessings.

[glenn bradley]

"Tungsten oil", I was wondering if anyone was going to comment on that :) It comes from Tungsten nuts instead of Tung nuts. :D

[Stew Hagerty]

What, you guys have never tried tungsten oil? When it dries, it producesa very hard and durable finish. I imagine titanium oil would be even better, but I bet it's pretty difficult to squeeze it out of the titanium tree bark.

You know, sometimes i reaaly like the predictive text feature on today's smartphones. Other times, not so much. LOL

As for the Tung Oil question. I know what I'm looking for when I go shopping. Real "pure tung oil" is actually much more difficult to find than what is typically, IMHO, misleadingly labelled as tung oil but is actually an oil/varnish blend. Sometimes including no actual Tung Oil at all.

[Randy Goodhew]

As for the Tung Oil question. I know what I'm looking for when I go shopping. Real "pure tung oil" is actually much more difficult to find than what is typically, IMHO, misleadingly labelled as tung oil but is actually an oil/varnish blend. Sometimes including no actual Tung Oil at all.

1. A product that is labeled "Tung Oil Finish" is not "pure tung oil." There is nothing misleading about that.

2. "Tung Oil Finish" doesn' t mean an oil/varnish blend. Most of these products are fully-cooked tung oil/ resin varnishes that have been diluted to a wiping varnish consistency.

3. It is an oft-repeated myth that products with "tung oil" in the label description, include no actual tung oil. Please name one product that fits this claim.

Blessings.

[Scott Holmes]

3. It is an oft-repeated myth that products with "tung oil" in the label description, include no actual tung oil. Please name one product that fits this claim.

Minwax Tung Oil Finish.

There, I named one.

FYI it's an oil/varnish blend NOT a wiping varnish.


"2. "Tung Oil Finish" doesn' t mean an oil/varnish blend. Most of these products are fully-cooked tung oil/ resin varnishes that have been diluted to a wiping varnish consistency."

Why don't you name one that's a true Tung oil wiping varnish!

(besides Formby's) that argument is so old it's not even worth talking about. It's a Soya Oil/Alkyd resin varnish 78% mineral spirits. Actually a very good varnish just too highly thinned for me.

[Randy Goodhew]

3. It is an oft-repeated myth that products with "tung oil" in the label description, include no actual tung oil. Please name one product that fits this claim.

Minwax Tung Oil Finish.

There, I named one.

FYI it's an oil/varnish blend NOT a wiping varnish.


Please prove this opinion with a reference.



"2. "Tung Oil Finish" doesn' t mean an oil/varnish blend. Most of these products are fully-cooked tung oil/ resin varnishes that have been diluted to a wiping varnish consistency."

Why don't you name one that's a true Tung oil wiping varnish!

(besides Formby's) that argument is so old it's not even worth talking about. It's a Soya Oil/Alkyd resin varnish 78% mineral spirits. Actually a very good varnish just too highly thinned for me.

Formby's is a true Tung Oil/Alkyd wiping varnish. It always has been.

Please prove your opinion with a reference.

So far I see nothing but oft-repeated rumors, without factual references.

Please cite a reference(s) that substantiate your claims.

Blessings.

[Scott Holmes]

I asked you to name one other than Formby's because you stated that "...Most of these products are fully-cooked tung oil/ resin varnishes that have been diluted to a wiping varnish consistency."

You did not even name one. I'll have to dig out the old Tech sheets and the old MSDS sheets.. in the mean time why don't you post proof that what we are saying is not accurate...

Posting an e-mail from someone from a company is an easy fraud. Where are you getting your facts?

Several years go there was a big on-line debate about Formby's ... Now their label states that it's varnish and the Formby's folks were saying that there was only a trace of Tung oil in the product. Someone even commented that only a trace of Tung oil would make it a contaminate; which not provide any benefit.

You make blatant statements with no proof to the contrary. A true "Blessing" to this forum would be for you to show us the facts; instead of challenging statements and then requesting us to post a link you know does not exist. Especially from Minwax (which it appears that they now own) Formby's sites; hmmm, what are THEY hiding?

[Randy Goodhew]

I asked you to name one other than Formby's because you stated that "...Most of these products are fully-cooked tung oil/ resin varnishes that have been diluted to a wiping varnish consistency."

You did not even name one. I'll have to dig out the old Tech sheets and the old MSDS sheets.. in the mean time why don't you post proof that what we are saying is not accurate...

Posting an e-mail from someone from a company is an easy fraud. Where are you getting your facts?

Several years go there was a big on-line debate about Formby's ... Now their label states that it's varnish and the Formby's folks were saying that there was only a trace of Tung oil in the product. Someone even commented that only a trace of Tung oil would make it a contaminate; which not provide any benefit.

You make blatant statements with no proof to the contrary. A true "Blessing" to this forum would be for you to show us the facts; instead of challenging statements and then requesting us to post a link you know does not exist. Especially from Minwax (which it appears that they now own) Formby's sites; hmmm, what are THEY hiding?

You've lost me.
Who is claiming to know what is NOT in Formby's Tung Oil Finish, yet offers no proof?
How do you know that I don't know a link exists?
What does Miniwax and Formby's site have in common?

Again, you've lost me. Help me to understand.

Blessings.

[Scott Holmes]

How do you know that I don't know a link exists?

What does Miniwax and Formby's site have in common?

Again, you've lost me. Help me to understand.

Blessings.[/QUOTE]

Formby's and Minwax are both are very quite about ingredients. Both of their MSDS' show the very minimum required by law. Their websites are vague at best. I assumed you knew that, my bad.

Formby's states it's varnish, in fine print, right on the label. NO indication that it's made with anything specific.
Directions tell you to rub it in, (as you would an oil?)? That's not the proper application technique for a wipe-on varnish.

I see three possibilities:

1. If it was made with Tung oil they would BRAG about it...
OR
2. Their marketing guys are really missing a key selling point...
OR
3. Their lawyers made sure they didn't state something that was false on the label.

I'm guessing #3.


Other manufactures are more forthcoming:
Waterlox states very clearly that it's a Tung Oil - phenolic resin varnish
P&L #38 states it's a soya oil - alkyd resin varnish
Sherwin Williams' Classic Fast Dry Oil Varnish says it's an alkyd resin - linseed oil varnish

Even Minwax Poly states that it's "Resin type: Linseed Oil-modified Polyurethane"
http://webcape.capeenv.com/CRC/Documents/Track6982/Minwax_Clear%20Gloss_71030_TDS.pdf page 3

So, Randy, what do you think?

[Randy Goodhew]

How do you know that I don't know a link exists?

What does Miniwax and Formby's site have in common?

Again, you've lost me. Help me to understand.

Blessings.

Formby's and Minwax are both are very quite about ingredients. Both of their MSDS' show the very minimum required by law. Their websites are vague at best. I assumed you knew that, my bad.

Formby's states it's varnish, in fine print, right on the label. NO indication that it's made with anything specific.
Directions tell you to rub it in, (as you would an oil?)? That's not the proper application technique for a wipe-on varnish.

I see three possibilities:

1. If it was made with Tung oil they would BRAG about it...
OR
2. Their marketing guys are really missing a key selling point...
OR
3. Their lawyers made sure they didn't state something that was false on the label.

I'm guessing #3.


Other manufactures are more forthcoming:
Waterlox states very clearly that it's a Tung Oil - phenolic resin varnish
P&L #38 states it's a soya oil - alkyd resin varnish
Sherwin Williams' Classic Fast Dry Oil Varnish says it's an alkyd resin - linseed oil varnish

Even Minwax Poly states that it's "Resin type: Linseed Oil-modified Polyurethane"
http://webcape.capeenv.com/CRC/Documents/Track6982/Minwax_Clear%20Gloss_71030_TDS.pdf page 3

So, Randy, what do you think?[/QUOTE]

I think you have once again lost me on your "logic."

1. I knew Homer Formby. We were clients of each other.
2. I have been in direct contact with the manufacturers of Formby's Tung Oil Finish for over 40 years.
3. I developed a Gas Chromatography technique for detecting tung oil in paints and coatings.
4. My technical info from Formby's says their "Finish" contains tung oil.

http://www.k-state.edu/facilities/storeroom/products/msds/Formbys%20Tung%20Oil%20006081.pdf

Elementary, my dear Holmes.
If you want to know what is actually in a product, contact the manufacturer directly.
Ignore rumors and internet echoes, and go directly to the source, find a REAL reference, and verify your opinions.
Doling out advice based upon misinformation casts a dark shadow on you and this forum.
Do what is right.

Note: Sherwin-Williams owns both MinWax and Formby's.
See if SW will hire you to correct their application techniques. :)

Blessings.

[Scott Holmes]

I stand corrected; the info you provided does indicate that Formby's is made with some Tung oil. I noticed that the new MSDS shows 78% MS (by weight) your copy only shows 70% (by weight).


Do you have an example of another "Tung oil" finish that is varnish?

Minwax Tung oil Finish is an oil/varnish blend (aka Danish Oil) Poly varnish, MS and linseed oil; if I remember correctly... I haven't had time to look for my Tech sheets. IIRC their Teak Oil finish shares an MSDS sheet with their Tung oil Finish.

[Randy Goodhew]

Do you have an example of another "Tung oil" finish that is varnish?

* Zar Tung Oil Wipe-On Finish (Tung Oil/Polyurethane)

* Cabot Tung Oil Finish (Tung Oil/Phenolic)



Minwax Tung oil Finish is an oil/varnish blend (aka Danish Oil) Poly varnish, MS and linseed oil; if I remember correctly... I haven't had time to look for my Tech sheets. IIRC their Teak Oil finish shares an MSDS sheet with their Tung oil Finish.

Proof?

Blessings.