A single plane iron with very steep bedding angle

[Kees Heiden]

A long time ago, before the invention and adaption of the double iron plane, they had trouble with tearout too. And because they couldn't set the chipbreaker close to the edge (it wasn't invented yet) they had to use steep cutting angles. Planes like that have been mentioned in old books, it's mentioned in Roubo, it is mentioned in an old German dictionary. But I hadn't ever seen a plane with a beddingangle steeper the 50 degrees, not even a picture. 50 degrees (york pitch) isn't so rare, but it is hardly steep enough to be so much better then a common 45 degree plane. I almost started to think it was a mythological type of plane, often mentioned, never seen.

Well, until now. I saw pictures of this nice little 18th century plane on the site from Jim Bode. Hard to meassure the angle, but it looks like 60 degrees. That's steep! It's a nice looking old plane. The top of the iron is not round, so it probably isn't super old. James Cam who made the iron worked from 1781-1838 according to Britisch Planemakers from 1700. So it could also be a 19th century plane. The wedge looks a bit odd, very short.

http://www.jimbodetools.com/Rare-18th-Century-Smooth-Plane-Signed-AI-p45152.html

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Did I overlook some other planes like this? Maybe in the Dominy collection?

[george wilson]

Probably fairly early 19th. C. with the iron's corners clipped at the 45 degree angle.

[Steve Voigt]

Kees,

There is this column (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/high-angle-try-planes-and-jointers) by Chris Schwarz, which makes reference to such a picture, but I don't have the photo.

It's a pity Larry and Don don't post much any more…maybe they could be persuaded to post some pics? My impression was that their bench planes were based on actual examples they had come across.

On the other side of the coin, it's interesting that the Carruthers advert from 1767 refers to double irons "exceeding all toothing planes and uprights." I'm pretty sure uprights = scrapers; if that's correct, it's interesting that he doesn't mention high angle planes.

I feel sure that Nicholson and perhaps Roubo mention high angle panes, but I've got no time to look now. Also, I seem to remember a high angle smoother in the Dominy book; I'll check later.

Great topic; wish I had some answers…

[Jim Koepke]

Has there ever been a single iron plane with a bedding angle of say 37º?

If the iron was sharpened with a 25º bevel this could possibly allow the iron to be inserted one way for low angle work and flipped over for a 62º angle of attack.

Just my 332097.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

I wish the Dominy book was still available, it raises crazy prices second hand.

The German Dictionary I mentioned from early 18th century mentions the Steilhobel or Harthobel and it even mentions the angle of 65 degrees. Roubo shows a picture with various angles in a bench plane, 45 and up. Nicholson doesn't mention angles, but Holzappfl (alway forget the correct spelling of his name) mentions the various pitches and even calls the middle pitch (55 dgrees) in conjuncting with smooting planes, not just moulding planes. Backbevels is another ancient trick to get a higher cutting angle.

Now I think about it, Roman planes were also found with a very high angle.

[Kees Heiden]

Ye Jim, a very low angle wooden plane is also not unknown. Sometimes called a box plane, for the makers of wooden crates and boxes of simple fir and pine woods.

[Kees Heiden]

Probably fairly early 19th. C. with the iron's corners clipped at the 45 degree angle.

Yes George, but it also got the wide flat chamfers and nice gouge cuts of earlier times.

[george wilson]

I looked at every tool on the Bode site. He has some nice tools. And,though this has been debated,I don't find his prices exceptionally high. I did manage to not buy anything though tomorrow is my 75th. birthday.

[Tony Wilkins]

Well happy Birthday George.

[Kees Heiden]

Happy birthday George! And indeed the Bode site has some very nice stuff. A bit above my pay grade but certainly not exceptional.

[Kees Heiden]

Euh, I ment expensive. The stuff certainly is exceptional. He has several nice 18th century Dutch planes for example.

[Kees Heiden]

Sorry, I keep on replying to my own thread :p

On searching I happened upon this document: http://images.library.wisc.edu/Dominy/EFacs/EnglishTools/reference/dominy.englishtools.i0002.pdf

There is a smoothing plane in this document. When I zoom in a lot I can meassure the angle at 55 degrees. I understood the Dominy family made most of the planes themself? (Edit: Samual Newbould was a maker of edge tools, not a planemaker, according to British Planemakers from 1700).
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[Kees Heiden]

I found a lot of images of the Dominy planes! Call me happy as a clam.

http://museumcollection.winterthur.org/results-text.php?port=40138&srchtype=advanced&ObjObjectName=&CreOrigin=&Earliest=&Latest=&CreCreatorLocal_tab=&materialsearch=&ObjObjectID=&ObjCategory=&DesMaterial_tab=&DesTechnique_tab=&AccCreditLineLocal=&CreMarkSignature=&recid=&srchfld=&srchtxt=dominy+plane&hasImage=&id=&resultsperpage=60&rownum=1&view=catalog&src=button-set60#.VshFTfLhC03

[Robert Engel]

If only a close set cap iron would prevent tear out ............

[Warren Mickley]

The planes pictured in the book are not all shown on the museum page, and there is at least one on the museum page not in the book. Of the larger bench planes, all shown in the book have a pitch between 40 and 50 degrees.

Of the smoothing planes, one, the Bewley plane is not mentioned in the book.

The 1763 smoothing plane is pictured in the book and is labeled as 30 degrees, but even though the book's picture is from above, it is obviously closer to 50 degrees. On the new pictures, you reference Kees, I get 50 degrees. I measured from the top surface since the sole is so obviously worn crooked. (Look at the front and rear chamfers.

The 1765 smoothing or upright plane is labeled as 60 degrees. The picture is taken at an angle but it appears to me to be somewhat higher than 60, maybe 65. Hummel says it was found with a plain iron, but there is also a loose toothing iron in the collection which fits and he wondered if that might have been that might have been original.

The third smoothing plane in the book (1787) is at 50 degrees, and is in much better shape than the 1763.

I might have some more comments later.

[Kees Heiden]

Interesting stuff Warren. It is indeed very hard to measure from a small picture. Paralax plays a role too.

[Kees Heiden]

I would still say, that very small picture I posted in the previous page measures out at roughly 55 degrees. I also measure from the top op the blade, along the back of the wedge. But I have to zoom in a lot.

[george wilson]

i think you are quite correct about the 60 degree angle,Kees.

When I first came to the museum,the old Dutch cabinet maker would grind the bevels of his BD planes nearly parallel to the wood they were cutting. The edges were a lot more blunt,but could still be gotten very sharp indeed. I used his method on some of my planes,as it seemed to me that this also made a more DURABLE cutting edge. His plane. He did not use the chip breaker properly either. He only used antique planes,and I can't recall if any of them even had a chip breaker. Some of mine did. As cantankerous as the old Dutchman was,I left him pretty much alone.

On the other hand,the coopers ground their blades to an EXTREMELY ACUTE angle. Their bevels would be nearly 1/2" wide! They were working with white oak a lot. I wondered how their edges held up using that hard wood. But,apparently they did. I think they made those acute angles so that they could hone a secondary angle on the blades many times before they had to go and laboriously re grind the bevels back.

When I was toolmaker,the blacksmiths were making their plane irons with 1080 or 1075 steel,because it was easier to weld to the softer iron of the plane irons bodies. Higher carbon steel tends to catch fire as it reaches welding heat. I don't know if the old timers had methods of forge welding higher carbon steel or not. Anyhow, as toolmaker,and now having the means to make tapered plane irons more easily myself, I felt sorry for them,and made them an iron or 2 of SOLID A2 steel. A2 is a more advanced steel,and will hold an edge longer than simple carbon steels. It won't take an edge quite as sharp,but it gets plenty sharp enough.

They were very grateful to get my irons. You could not tell them from old style laminated steel irons as we left them black and finished with a blacksmith's flatter,like the old irons. The first few inches of their backs were ground flat,like the old irons.I wonder how far back they have as of yet ground my irons? Those guys work out of doors all year long and have to plane ornery wood all the time. I know that my irons made life at least a little easier for them. I think they have one of the most physically difficult jobs in the museum.

[Patrick Chase]

If only a close set cap iron would prevent tear out ............

No, the cap iron is merely a blade stiffener, and any suggestion to the contrary is heresy.

Seriously, there are times when even a close-set cap iron isn't quite enough. In some woods the fiber-fiber bonds are so weak that tearout starts before the shaving even reaches a closely set (6-8 mils) cap iron. When that happens it's good to have a high-angle plane on hand...

[Warren Mickley]

I would still say, that very small picture I posted in the previous page measures out at roughly 55 degrees. I also measure from the top op the blade, along the back of the wedge. But I have to zoom in a lot.
I wrote

I measured from the top surface since the sole is so obviously worn crooked. (Look at the front and rear chamfers.
I was referring to the 1763 smoother. I meant measuring from the top of the top of the block, not the top of the iron. If you look at the sole, there is about a 1/2 inch difference in height front to back in 6 11/16 length, a 4 degree tilt. Here is 1763:
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With regard to the 1787 plane which you posted, Charlie Hummel measured it at 50 degrees with the plane in hand. The picture in the book is also much better than the one you posted. As I mentioned earlier, I think all the bench planes were between 40 and 50 except the 1765 upright.

In 1846 Holtzapffel mentioned the following pitches;
45 Common pitch for bench planes
50 York pitch bench planes for difficult woods
55 Middle pitch for moulding planes
60 Half pitch for moulding planes

I have seen no references to these terms before Holtzapffel and quite a few in the years that follow. If someone has seen these pitch terms used in the 18th century, or even early 19th century I would be quite interested.

Roubo seems to use 50 degrees as a standard, but mentions 45 and 48 also. When the wood is risque or rude, perhaps 52 or 55 are appropriate. 60 degrees for some moulding planes. Menuisier page 62. Planche 281 shows a short upright plane at 80 degrees.

[Kees Heiden]

Allright, so no very steep planes in the Dominy collection, apart from one that could also have been a toothing plane?
(And yes I also ment meassuring from the top of the plane, not the blade).

Here is a bit from Holtzapffel.

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As you can see, the 55 degree pitch is mentioned for moulding AND smoothing planes.

And here is the text from the German dictionary about the Harthobel.

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Under point 3 you see the 65 degree bedding angle.

I can't read French, but I have found a old German translation from Roubo, so I will have a look.

Overall, more then 50 degrees might not have been very common in benchplanes, but they did exist.

[Kees Heiden]

The German translation is very hard to read, but I understand that Roubo advises 60 degrees for some small finishing planes. 45 to 50 for the large planes and 52 or even 55 for difficult kinds of wood.