Stair treads for bench top

[Irvin Gomez]

Absolutely necessary disclosure: I'm a beginner who does not have the skill (or hand planes!!!!!) to build a 3" thick bench top. I don't have the $400+ (including shipping) to buy a good one. So, I have an idea: get 4 oak stair treads at HD, cut them to size (my bench will be around 54x24) and glue them to a single layer of playwood of the same size.

Not having a table saw or miter saw, I want to leave a 5"-wide transversal groove some 12" from one of the ends in order to do quick cross cuts on 3/4 material with my circular saw / guide rail combo.

Total cost will be around $100.

Perhaps due due to my inexperience, I don't feel I need an absolutely flat bench top and it also seems to me these materials (oak stair tread plus plywood base) would provide a flat enough surface with the power to hold a few bench dogs.

is my plan realistic? Drawbacks? Alternatives? Shoot, please and be brutally honest. I'm here to learn.

[Andrew Howe]

That is an interesting idea. But most treads I see are about 12x36". Do you have access to bigger ones?
I also saw a youtube video of one make etirely of laminated 3/4" plywood for all of it. Neat idea if you ask me.

[Jerry Miner]

If you glue oak lumber to plywood, you will cause problems. The lumber will want to expand/contract with seasonal moisture changes. The plywood will not. They will fight each other, resulting in warping and/or splitting of the wood.

If you haven't done so yet, take a look at the Paul Sellers video about building a bench with construction lumber: Paul Sellers video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru2ZiNs_Wek&list=PLD39949332C7FB168)

IMHO you'd be much better off with a construction lumber bench top than with the plan you propose. Also, think again about whether "flat" matters. Flatter is better. It will affect everything you build on it. Flatter is better.

[David T gray]

if it was me i would just build a torsion box and fill it with sand or not and u will have a extremely heavy and flat top and cheap without needing any real tools flatness is is more important then anything

[Dave Zellers]

Buy one sheet of good quality underlayment grade plywood (at a real lumberyard, not a borg), rip it in half lengthwise and glue the two halves together using at least 20 clamps and bow clamps.

Cut it off at 54" and you will have a top that will last forever.

Save the cutoff and down the road when you are ready, turn it into a router table top.

After you cut the plywood in half, let it sit for a few days before you glue it, then oppose whatever bow has developed on the two sheets.

Don't skimp on the glue or the clamps, and let it sit clamped for at least 24 hours.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I don't see your location in your profile.... someone local may be able to help you

Take a look at this thread

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?77255-Workbench-top-%28plywood-hardboard-MDF-other-%29

Woodcraft sells a 24x60 laminted bench top for about $220 I think, something to consider.

You can use construction grade lumber (like 2x4, 2x6, whatever), but, I expect that you lack the tools to make them flat (just guessing).

[Chris Hachet]

Buy one sheet of good quality underlayment grade plywood (at a real lumberyard, not a borg), rip it in half lengthwise and glue the two halves together using at least 20 clamps and bow clamps.

Cut it off at 54" and you will have a top that will last forever.

Save the cutoff and down the road when you are ready, turn it into a router table top.

After you cut the plywood in half, let it sit for a few days before you glue it, then oppose whatever bow has developed on the two sheets.

Don't skimp on the glue or the clamps, and let it sit clamped for at least 24 hours.

This....or...my outfeed table for the table saw is also a work bench. I used Melamine and screwed it together. Tough, flat, Cheap (with 4 x 4 legs from the Borg and a dumpster dive at a new home subdivision for the rest of the lumber, entire bench was $40 without vices) I have used that bench on a regular basis for five years with no Ill effects. I even added holes for holdfasts, Gramercy hold fasts work fine.

I used mostly reclaimed wood for my other bench, I am not into it much deeper than the cost of the Bench Crafted Classic Vise and Criss Cross.

Were I to build a 3rd bench, I would use SYP. (Southern yellow Pine).

You may want to wander over to the Neanderthal Haven part of the forum and look at the sticky section, they have interesting threads about benches. If you don't mind a bit of theory, try one of Christopher Schwartz books. He had an excellent article in PWW a few years ago called the $175 work bench that should be within your skill set to build.

Also, goggle Bob and Dave's good cheap fast bench or the like....guys 12 year old son built a workable bench in a weekend with minimal hand tools.

[Chris Hachet]

I don't see your location in your profile.... someone local may be able to help you

Take a look at this thread

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?77255-Workbench-top-%28plywood-hardboard-MDF-other-%29

Woodcraft sells a 24x60 laminted bench top for about $220 I think, something to consider.

You can use construction grade lumber (like 2x4, 2x6, whatever), but, I expect that you lack the tools to make them flat (just guessing).

IF he is careful, a router a straight bit and a bit of patience can get it done. You tube would be his friend here.

[Chris Hachet]

...also, MDF, properly supported will work fine. Fine woodworking has a really decent bench built out of only plywood in an article a few years ago. But to repat the advice I give everyone, build you first bench on the cheap and fast side....you will know what you want to change, and then you can either rebuild that bench or build another one. You will not know what you really want in a bench until you work with it awhile.

[Irvin Gomez]

That is an interesting idea. But most treads I see are about 12x36". Do you have access to bigger ones?
I also saw a youtube video of one make etirely of laminated 3/4" plywood for all of it. Neat idea if you ask me.

There is an 11 1/2 X 48 size available. 1" thick. Being 1" thick is appealing to me because of the possibility of just buying 3 of them and cutting them into 4 pieces to cover my planned 54x24 bench top while leaving a groove naturally thick enough to do cross cuts with relative ease.

I have to to clarify that I'm not trying to be 'creative' or 'original' here. I have read a lot about the topic, but, unfortunately for me, I need to work under very strict limits in space, tools, budget and even personal woodworking skill. I do not have a jointer, table saw or miter saw. All I have is a Makita circular saw with the 55" rail guide, a Jessem doweling jig, a Makita router kit, a few chisels, a cheap block place and a small assortment of other minor tools and jigs (shelf pin, jigsaw, drill/driver, etc.).

Doing this as a hobby also means that I must strike a fine balance between spending money in a realistic, meaningful matter and doing the best work I can: I don't have the necessary skill or bank account to justify $2000 invested in nice Veritas planes (but I do play the lotto a couple of times per year). I will probably never have the skill to effectively flatten an all-wood bench top with hand tools! But I love to work with wood and enjoy the challenge of tryin my best with my limited skills and resources.

Thay's the reason for not going the tried-and-true route. Sorry for the long post, but I felt a bit more background would provide a better picture of what I'm trying to achieve.

[Michael Dye]

Here is an option. As another poster mentioned, Woodcraft has laminated tops on sale from time to time. My story............my son was looking for a bench he could use for projects, glue-ups, computer disassembly, term papers, etc. We went to Woodcraft planning on getting one of their sale 24X60 tops for the advertised $169 (this was a few years ago). Lo and behold, the store had a top that had been dropped, damaging one corner. Sold it to use for 50% off the advertised price. We took it home, trimmed off the bad corner, installed a backsplash and mounted it atop 2 36" military surplus file cabinets (Craigslist - $30 for the pair). Timing played a big part in the build but, you might run into a similar set of circumstances.

[Irvin Gomez]

...also, MDF, properly supported will work fine. Fine woodworking has a really decent bench built out of only plywood in an article a few years ago. But to repat the advice I give everyone, build you first bench on the cheap and fast side....you will know what you want to change, and then you can either rebuild that bench or build another one. You will not know what you really want in a bench until you work with it awhile.
Thanks, Chris. Very true - not to mention it seems you need a workbench to build one! Lol

[Irvin Gomez]

Here is an option. As another poster mentioned, Woodcraft has laminated tops on sale from time to time. My story............my son was looking for a bench he could use for projects, glue-ups, computer disassembly, term papers, etc. We went to Woodcraft planning on getting one of their sale 24X60 tops for the advertised $169 (this was a few years ago). Lo and behold, the store had a top that had been dropped, damaging one corner. Sold it to use for 50% off the advertised price. We took it home, trimmed off the bad corner, installed a backsplash and mounted it atop 2 36" military surplus file cabinets (Craigslist - $30 for the pair). Timing played a big part in the build but, you might run into a similar set of circumstances.

thanks, Michael. Yes, I will keep an eye on that angle. I'm in NYC at it's surprisingly difficult to find woodworking-related tools and materials (specially non-construction wood). There's a few specialty outlets, but they have exhorbitant prices.

[Charles Wiggins]

Irvin,

Given your restrictions, I would tend toward a laminated plywood bench top. You could use construction grade ply for the lower layers and then have some sort of smoother board for the top layer - hardwood ply, MDF, or masonite (hardboard), all work fine.

And you can make a passable table saw by mounting your circular saw to the underside of a piece of plywood and doing a plunge-cut through the board:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhORUN6oCUc

Izzy Swan is a great resource for guys in your position (limited resources) but be forewarned, he is not big into safety equipment, etc. He calls his show Think Woodworks. Part of that philosophy is that safety starts between the ears, not with relying on some gadget to foolproof your work.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Sorry for the long post, but ....

No apology needed. We are here to help.... and to learn.... So, be certain to also let us know what you finally choose to do, how it works out, and what you would have done differently.

[Irvin Gomez]

IMHO you'd be much better off with a construction lumber bench top than with the plan you propose. Also, think again about whether "flat" matters. Flatter is better. It will affect everything you build on it. Flatter is better.

Thanks, Jerry.

Quick, honest question: how flat is "flat"? I know it matters, but what sort of deviation is acceptable for simple, non-commercial, furniture work? I'm a hobbyist building little tables, chests of drawers, music instrument racks, and even a custom wooden case for my desktop computer. Nothing very big or complicated (I'm a graphic designer in 'real life' and like the look of simple, elegant woodwork).

I ask ask because I frequently read (and watch videos) where guys are talking about things like 0.00017" deviations and it seems to me that that type of "precision work" is probably more applicable to metal. Wood, to me, is far more interesting with some degree of imperfection, like knots, dings and the occasional almost-imperceptible curvature...

In other words: can good work be done on an 80" bench that sags 1/16" in the center, for example? My guess is that would be a serious problem mostly to guys doing a lot of plane work, not so much for power tool users. Is that a correct assumption?

[Irvin Gomez]

One other factor I have considered: even if I bite the bullet and order a laminated top for like $400 including shipping, I read a lot of guys claiming they had to flatten them upon arrival!

[Tom Ewell]

I've used a solid core exterior door for decades as a 3'x6'8" work surface, not as flat as a 'true' workbench but very serviceable.
It also serves as the table saw outfeed.

Also have flats available for assemblies but that's another matter.

[Mark Wooden]

I've used a solid core exterior door for decades as a 3'x6'8" work surface, not as flat as a 'true' workbench but very serviceable.
It also serves as the table saw outfeed.

Also have flats available for assemblies but that's another matter.

+1 on this-
You can usually find a decent solid core door on CL or other places and you may have to fill a hole or two with a solid wood plug. Another source would be a "real" lumber yard- not a BORG. Go to the yard desk and ask if they have any solid core slabs that are 2nds, overstock or returns. Sometimes you may have to re-glue some veneer or such but they make very serviceable bench tops.I recently bought a 3-0 x 7-0 with birch veneer for $25. One side had a nasty gouge, put that side down. Three coats of Waterlox, two coats of wax and glue comes right off after it dries. I have a few that I've been using for 10-12 yrs, just fill the drill holes and router digs with filler and carry on. Since they're inexpensive, no despair when they get dinged up.

[Cody Colston]

I'm planning a new work bench, a traditional scandinavian-style bench. I just got a quote from a hardwood dealer in Dallas of $3.13/bf for superior 8/4 Beech lumber. The 50 bf I need will only cost ~$160. I'll use Post Oak for the base which I have on hand.

Whatever you use, your bench top needs to be flat or it will be frustrating to you, regardless of your methods of work. If using solid wood, it will also likely move after a while and require flattening again. That's true of even the high-end benches like an Ulmia.

Consider using construction-grade SYP for your bench, rather than stair treads. 2 x 4's with the radiused edges ripped off will still leave plenty of width for a 3" thick bench top. It will be cheaper and SYP makes a better bench top than does Oak (unless the oak is finished with something like poly - not recommended) If using Pine or even stair trreads, let the lumber acclimate to your shop before building. I'd suggest waiting a minimum of a month. Waiting longer would be better.

A well-built bench will last your lifetime and probably your grandkid's lifetime. You might want to get a copy of "The Workbench Book" or the book on workbenches by Chris Schwarz before starting your build.

[Mike Wilkins]

My vote is to save the money to purchase stair treads and get plywood instead. Lots of folks, including me, have used plywood to make a bench top. If you go this route, use a hardwood plywood; glue two layers to make a 1 1/2" thick top (3 layers would be even better). All those layers of wood will make a strong top. Good luck and hang in there.

[David Eisenhauer]

Multi-layer plywood top with a "2 by" base will work just fine and is doable with the tools you have and your self-judged "lack of skill" (everybody starts and everybody gets better, only those that never try don't count). Mark and cut stuff as straight/square as possible, live with what is not quite perfect. Through-bolt the base together with carriage bolts rather than drywall screws. If money is tight (when is it never tight?), buy a sheet or stick at a time as $ becomes available. The solid-core door option described above is also a very good option if you can find one for less than the multi-layer ply would cost, plus it would save on needing so many clamps. Pipe clamp fixtures are fairly cheap, find some scrap/used/CL/cheapo pipe pieces. You can do this just as most of the rest of us did.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> glue them to a single layer of playwood

Not good idea. Gluing solid wood to plywood will cause warping. The solid wood will expand and contract with changes in humidity. The plywood will not move with moisture changes and the result will be warping.

[Irvin Gomez]

Multi-layer plywood top with a "2 by" base will work just fine and is doable with the tools you have and your self-judged "lack of skill" (everybody starts and everybody gets better, only those that never try don't count). Mark and cut stuff as straight/square as possible, live with what is not quite perfect. Through-bolt the base together with carriage bolts rather than drywall screws. If money is tight (when is it never tight?), buy a sheet or stick at a time as $ becomes available. The solid-core door option described above is also a very good option if you can find one for less than the multi-layer ply would cost, plus it would save on needing so many clamps. Pipe clamp fixtures are fairly cheap, find some scrap/used/CL/cheapo pipe pieces. You can do this just as most of the rest of us did.

Thanks David and everyone else for the generous advice. Will consider everything and will post back when I'm done, including the bumps, regrets and sound decisions - maybe even a few pics! I'm sure there will be a few of each...

[Irvin Gomez]

>>>> glue them to a single layer of playwood

Not good idea. Gluing solid wood to plywood will cause warping. The solid wood will expand and contract with changes in humidity. The plywood will not move with moisture changes and the result will be warping.

My understanding is that the stair treads are made of finger-jointed pieces of hardwood under 1/8" oak layers on both sides (they have solid oak treads for a bit extra money), so there will not be much expansion occurring. I have to find out more...

[Frank Pratt]

First thing: get the idea of gluing solid wood to plywood out of your head. It just will not work, no way, no how. As many others have suggested, build the top out of multiple layers of plywood or MDF. It's cheap, solid, heavy, flat & you can do it with the limited set of tools that you have. That FWW article on the all ply bench is good, but it would probably be easier to build the base out of construction lumber.

It'll be a fun learning experience & you'll have a very serviceable bench when your done.

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks David and everyone else for the generous advice. Will consider everything and will post back when I'm done, including the bumps, regrets and sound decisions - maybe even a few pics! I'm sure there will be a few of each...

Please do, we would love to see what you come up with. Don't feel bad if you make a mistake or two with lumber...it would probably be laying on the forest floor if it had not been harvested....

[Chris Hachet]

First thing: get the idea of gluing solid wood to plywood out of your head. It just will not work, no way, no how. As many others have suggested, build the top out of multiple layers of plywood or MDF. It's cheap, solid, heavy, flat & you can do it with the limited set of tools that you have. That FWW article on the all ply bench is good, but it would probably be easier to build the base out of construction lumber.

It'll be a fun learning experience & you'll have a very serviceable bench when your done.

Also, you can keep your first bench as an assembly table or a place to store parts waiting for assembly when you find yourself getting around to building a better bench...

[Bob DeWolfe]

Go to recycle store and get a solid core door. Cut to size, glue & screw 1"" MDF to this. Double sided tape a 1/8" hardboard for the top and trim it out with pine. When the top gets damaged change it out for another hardboard top. Build the base out of 2 by material. This will last you a long time and give you a solid flat surface to work on.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Solid core doors make great tops, just saying..


You asked how flat this must be. The answer is.... it depends on what you will do with it.

First, note that I purchased a long straight edge and then I can use hand planes to flatten my bench.

If the bench is flat, then I can lay a rough board on the bench and quickly check rocking (and similar) to see if it is flat. If you put a chair (or similar) on the bench, if it is not flat, then you cannot set the feet so that they will sit flat on a flat floor. If you assemble something on the bench, it is less likely to be square.

These claim to be 0.003" over the entire length; pretty good for the price.

So, will you be building things where the tolerance matters this much? Probably not, at least not at first, but, I could be wrong!

[Irvin Gomez]

First thing: get the idea of gluing solid wood to plywood out of your head. It just will not work, no way, no how.

honest question (not arguing because I don't know the answer): if the stair tread is made of finger-jointed small pieces of hardwood sandwiched between two layers of 1/8" solid oak, how much expansion, if any, should occur on an 11" X 36" unit? Why won't there be damage when gluing the 1/8" thick layer of solid oak to the finger-jointed composite material?

I'm in no way denying that wood expansion is very real and I'm not disputing the rule that says something bad will happen when gluing solid wood to plywood. I'm only pondering if there is enough expansion (by the hybrid-wood stair tread) in this particular case to merit worrying about the well-documented problem. Is the rule applicable in this particular case?

I have a particular interest in using the stair tread because it solves a big problem for me: how to easily and reliably do cross cuts on 7/8" (or less) thick stuff without a table saw or miter saw. That's a big part of my plans for this bench top.

Any ideas?

[Chris Hachet]

honest question (not arguing because I don't know the answer): if the stair tread is made of finger-jointed small pieces of hardwood sandwiched between two layers of 1/8" solid oak, how much expansion, if any, should occur on an 11" X 36" unit? Why won't there be damage when gluing the 1/8" thick layer of solid oak to the finger-jointed composite material?

I'm in no way denying that wood expansion is very real and I'm not disputing the rule that says something bad will happen when gluing solid wood to plywood. I'm only pondering if there is enough expansion (by the hybrid-wood stair tread) in this particular case to merit worrying about the well-documented problem. Is the rule applicable in this particular case?

I have a particular interest in using the stair tread because it solves a big problem for me: how to easily and reliably do cross cuts on 7/8" (or less) thick stuff without a table saw or miter saw. That's a big part of my plans for this bench top.

Any ideas?

Buy two clamps, take a piece of construction grade lumber, and use it as a fence for your circular saw. Or for that matter, buy a cheapie cross cut saw with hardened teeth and cut it by hand. Cutting a straight line by hand is not that difficult, and it will be good practice for all of the other cutting you will do as you progress as a wood worker.

[Chris Hachet]

Buy two clamps, take a piece of construction grade lumber, and use it as a fence for your circular saw. Or for that matter, buy a cheapie cross cut saw with hardened teeth and cut it by hand. Cutting a straight line by hand is not that difficult, and it will be good practice for all of the other cutting you will do as you progress as a wood worker.

Or for that matter, have your plywood cut at the home center or lumber yard you buy it at. Glue up two pieces on something relatively flat, and you should be off to the races. You way want to watch a you tube video on Winding sticks so you know if you are nice and level if you laminate two pieces of plywood together.

[Chris Hachet]

Go to recycle store and get a solid core door. Cut to size, glue & screw 1"" MDF to this. Double sided tape a 1/8" hardboard for the top and trim it out with pine. When the top gets damaged change it out for another hardboard top. Build the base out of 2 by material. This will last you a long time and give you a solid flat surface to work on.

...or...pretty much this as an alternative to the wood flooring option.

[Irvin Gomez]

Buy two clamps, take a piece of construction grade lumber, and use it as a fence for your circular saw. Or for that matter, buy a cheapie cross cut saw with hardened teeth and cut it by hand. Cutting a straight line by hand is not that difficult, and it will be good practice for all of the other cutting you will do as you progress as a wood worker.

I have a decent circular saw (Makita) with a rail guide. I mentioned it in my initial post - one of the reasons for considering the stair tread is that by leaving a 5" groove between them (as in those workbenches with a center groove for tools) I could easily do cross cuts on 7/8" (or less) thick stock.

I'm still interested in knowing how much wood movement cab be expected from a 12x36" stair tread that consists of finger-jointed hardwood sandwiched between 2 solid pieces of 1/8" thick oak. Enough to cause problems when glued to plywood?

[Frank Pratt]

I'm still interested in knowing how much wood movement cab be expected from a 12x36" stair tread that consists of finger-jointed hardwood sandwiched between 2 solid pieces of 1/8" thick oak. Enough to cause problems when glued to plywood?

Is the grain direction of the oak parallel or perpendicular to the finger jointed wood in the middle?

[Erik Christensen]

Irvin - re solid wood expansion - it exists and it will break things - it does not matter how the solid wood is built up - why is plywood different is the question to ask - the answer is because each layer is 90 degrees to the layers above/below - wood expands in width not length so the alternate layers keep things from moving - solid wood (even if assembled from smaller parts) does not have such 90 opposing grain so there is nothing to resist the change in size

[Phil Stone]

One other factor I have considered: even if I bite the bullet and order a laminated top for like $400 including shipping, I read a lot of guys claiming they had to flatten them upon arrival!

This is an important consideration. The Bally Block tops that Woodcraft sells are beautiful and generally flat, but they are laid up with blocks of alternating grain direction -- very hard to hand plane to flatness (although a router/sled might work).

[Irvin Gomez]

Is the grain direction of the oak parallel or perpendicular to the finger jointed wood in the middle?
parallel, Frank

[Frank Pratt]

parallel, Frank

All wood expand & contracts with moisture change much more across the grain than with it. Those stair treads will act as a solid piece of wood as far as movement is concerned. If glued to plywood, it will either cause the assembly to bow or cup as the humidity changes.

Plywood is a bit of a different animal. It's made of alternating cross grain, very thin layers. As a result, it only expands & contracts about as much as solid wood does in long grain direction.

If you start with a couple of layers of 3/4" ply, MDF, or a solid core door, then you can still add a 3/4" layer with a gap to give you the groove for clearance with sawing. You can probably build the whole bench for less than the cost of the stair treads & it'll be a much better bench.

Good luck with your build & be sure to share the results with us.