PDA

View Full Version : Finishing Bird's Eye Maple Veneer Top, and more



Ira Rather
02-18-2016, 6:02 PM
Hey guys.

I'm doing a Squier Tele to Esquire conversion, and picked up two pieces of over-sized bird's eye veneer for this. Mind you, I'm only doing the face of the guitar; the sides and back will remain black. I should only need one piece. The other is insurance, or for another guitar down the road.

I've yet to glue it on (still filling the neck cavity with wood filler in thin layers), so here are my questions:

1) Should I glue a rough cut piece on there and router off the edges? I have a friend who can do this for me. If I attempted this myself, it would go in the comedy section.

Or should I cut the piece exact? I guess I would use a scissor for this. (The veneer isn't super thin but thin enough for scissor, and it isn't paper-backed.)

2) I want to do a 2-tint using Transtint. Is there a gallery here of photos of what people have done, that might also include the tint #s used?

You see, I understand the value of experimenting on scrap, but I'd like to at least have a STARTING point on which dyes to buy.

I appreciate your help, because I'm afraid. Very afraid.

Julie Moriarty
02-18-2016, 11:00 PM
http://www.julimorcreations.com/Images/Guitars/Guitar/KB_Custom/KB%20Custom_44.jpg
This was blue Transtint dye over black Transtint that was sanded back. (LINK (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?217231-Tele-Style-Guitar-Build))

http://www.julimorcreations.com/Images/Guitars/Guitar/Radicaster/radicaster_59.jpg
Red Transtint over black Transtint, sanded back, with a very light black border burst. (LINK (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211314-Stratocaster-Build-From-Scratch))

There are build threads here for these two maple body guitars as well a Strat (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211314-Stratocaster-Build-From-Scratch) with a figured sapele body and a bass (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214133-Electric-Bass-Guitar-Build) with a Hawaiian koa body.

Ira Rather
02-18-2016, 11:09 PM
Thanks for the links.

So do people usually apply their black first, or it doesn't matter?

I'd like more of a honey color, not too light, with the black.

Ira Rather
02-19-2016, 6:42 AM
Rockier is only showing 17 available TransFast, but there are 34 shown here:

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/transfast_rev2-2014.pdf

Julie Moriarty
02-19-2016, 9:07 AM
Thanks for the links.

So do people usually apply their black first, or it doesn't matter?

I'd like more of a honey color, not too light, with the black.
The process is to apply black dye on the raw maple. Wait for it to dry. Then sand it back so only the deepest black dye penetration remains. Then apply whatever dye color you want overall.

I'm not sure a black sandback would be the best choice for honey maple. You might consider a very dark brown. I found this video that may fit what you're looking to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ56p-3_SXE

I spray the burst on. I've experimented with ragging it on with limited success. Big D got much better results ragging it on than what I did.

Ira Rather
02-19-2016, 9:43 AM
Julie (and other)...

Thanks for hanging in there with me. It is VERY appreciated!

So couldn't I consider, for now, getting just one medium to dark brown TransFast, or TransTint, and mixing differently? And do a crapload of testing?

It's not that I want to cheap out on this, but as it is, I'm spending quite a bit on this project. (It was a lot of fun ordering a quart of Titebond Cold Press Veneer Glue for 15 bucks with shipping, when I'm going to just need a few ounces.)

And it's not like I'm going to need this dye for anything after this project.

But why do you say black/ebony is no good? That it won't absorb properly for this kind of veneer?

Ira Rather
02-19-2016, 9:51 AM
That video is awesome.

Julie Moriarty
02-19-2016, 2:15 PM
But why do you say black/ebony is no good? That it won't absorb properly for this kind of veneer?
I think if you go with a black sandback it won't end up looking like honey maple. Dark brown, like what was used in the video, would keep you in the honey maple family.

I did a lot of experimenting with dyes, but most of that was after I screwed up. And then, the costs in time and money make it worth it to buy a little extra wood and run some tests. The black sandback could look good but I don't think it will look like honey maple.

Ira Rather
02-19-2016, 2:27 PM
When I say honey maple, I just mean a honey color really. Don't know how to describe it, so let me look at the TransFast color samples and post the link here.

Bob Murphy
02-19-2016, 2:42 PM
Great videos; thanks for posting.

Ira Rather
02-21-2016, 7:05 PM
I ordered TransFast Honey Maple and Extra Dark Mahogany.

The rinse and repeat confuses me:

Should I do two coats of the Mahogany, sanding in between, to see if that's the color I want? And then go with the Honey Maple for one coat? And if I'm not satisfied with that color, sand back and do the Honey again?


i SHOULD be satisfied with that Honey since I'll be doing testing when mixing, but the question still stands.

Julie Moriarty
02-22-2016, 1:56 PM
There isn't any specific formula for what you are trying to achieve. So much depends on the characteristics of the wood you are using. Then there's how you are mixing the dyes and how wet you are applying it. This is where experimentation becomes invaluable. If you bought a rectangular piece of maple, use the cutoffs to experiment on. I know you've seen a lot of videos but watch some more if you are uncertain. Jeff Jewitt, the owner of Homestead and a wood finishing guru, might have some videos. Another finishing guru is Teri Masaschi. I think she may have some videos. But in the end it will come down to experimenting and trial & error.

When I first dove into this a couple of years ago I knew so little I didn't want to do anything for fear of making a mistake. Now I know the fretting I did was an overreaction. You can come back from a lot of mistakes just as long as you don't apply a finish to it. I made that mistake, too. I have applied black dye to an entire guitar body, sanded it back, applied the toning color and tested it with mineral spirits only to find I didn't like it. Then I sanded the whole body back as far as I could and started all over. I learned more by making mistakes than from anything else. I wish I could help more...

Mark Greenbaum
02-23-2016, 7:08 AM
I've used this technique, and find the video very helpful. http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/how-to-create-a-sunburst-finish.aspx

I hope this helps.

Ira Rather
02-23-2016, 7:14 AM
Thanks, Mark. But for my first attempt, I would be afraid to try a sunburst!

Mark Greenbaum
02-23-2016, 10:21 AM
Ira: The French Polish technique by itself is priceless to learn and use. It requires virtually no equipment, and you can achieve amazing results. The burst technique is only a part of that video; the main thing is to dye dark, and sand back, then colorize and add finish.

Ira Rather
02-23-2016, 6:29 PM
We have a problem, Houston:

My Titebond Veneer Glue arrived today, and I have 6 small pieces of BE cut as testing samples (like 3x5) to glue to a piece of unfinished pine.

Well damn, did that first piece curl up like a mother on the edges when it came in contact with the glue! So the next piece, I put a thicker layer of glue on, and same thing. I have some cans weighing it down now.

There's nothing in the Titebond instructions about letting it set before connecting your pieces, but when I glue that next sample piece on, I'm going to apply the glue and let it sit awhile--maybe that will help its tackiness?

Otherwise, I don't see how the heck I'm going to apply my cut piece to the body and "weight it down" properly so it'll set! As it is, it's going to be a bit tricky perfectly positioning the veneer, with ittsy bittsy overhang to sand back after.

Ira Rather
02-23-2016, 8:31 PM
Yep.

20 minutes curing time helped tons. I'm now trying 25.

Ira Rather
02-24-2016, 7:11 AM
This is gonna be scary. Maybe I should apply a super thin layer of glue to the veneer too.

Julie Moriarty
02-24-2016, 10:52 AM
I just found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWM7m9eAasY
Maybe it will help.

Ira Rather
02-24-2016, 11:38 AM
Yeah--I saw the ironing technique this morning.

So you glue both sides, but the DANGER is, glue coming through the veneer.

And this ain't something you can test on a scrap piece!!!

I'm tempted to do this, but there are still too many freaking variables!

Meanwhile, my dyes arrived today, and I just finished sanding off the veneer under the original paint, so I'm ready to rock and roll!

Julie Moriarty
02-25-2016, 11:01 AM
And if the glue comes through the veneer, you have sealed the wood and it won't take the dye the same way fresh wood would. THAT would be a problem!

Shawn Pixley
02-25-2016, 12:43 PM
Theoretically, the veneer glue is designed not to come through the veneer. I have never experienced it. Maple is a close pored wood and would be less likely to come through the pores (as opposed to an open pored wood like oak).

When I veneered things with BE Maple, everything went exceedingly well. Concern is good, but at some point you are going to have to go for it.

Ira Rather
02-25-2016, 10:27 PM
An effin disaster. The crap bubbled up like crazy. Total garbage. Total waste of time.

Julie Moriarty
02-26-2016, 9:40 AM
Can you post pictures? Sometimes it helps us see what's going on.

Ira Rather
02-26-2016, 11:26 AM
Long vertical bubbles running half the length of the guitar. Like 7 or 8 little mountain ranges.

Shawn Pixley
02-26-2016, 11:52 AM
Did you use a vacuum bag or platten with cauls on the veneer glue-up?

Shawn Pixley
02-26-2016, 11:54 AM
Long vertical bubbles running half the length of the guitar. Like 7 or 8 little mountain ranges.

Depending upon the actual "bubbles", you may be able to glue those back down. Pictures will help.

Ira Rather
02-26-2016, 12:54 PM
I just used a heavy piece of tempered glass and weighed it down big time.

Shawn Pixley
02-26-2016, 1:32 PM
Pictures will still help. Not enough force to fully lay down the veneer. You may be able to soften the veneer bubbles and work glue behind the bubble and flatten it down with a platten and caul with clamps.

Repaired lots of veneered tables this way.

Ira Rather
02-27-2016, 10:02 AM
This was beyond repair--especially since I started tearing it up. Later today, I'm sanding back to raw face again.

I have another piece of bird's eye, and an alternate plan.

I'm going to glue it to a thin sheet of wood. They sell thicker-than-veneer but very thin sheets of pine, other types, in 2' by 4' size. And I'm going to test using contact cement. If there's no bleed-through with that, I'm good to go:

I now have a rigid composite which I can glue to the body, using the Veneer glue.

This ain't easy for me, considering I just got fitted yesterday for the latest Paris fashion in springwear:332560

Shawn Pixley
02-27-2016, 1:53 PM
Ira, sorry about your knee. I hope it heals quickly.

Given your lack of confidence in veneering, I suggest you buy some cheap (mahogany, etc...) veneer and some small pieces of a decent ply and practice veneering a bit. There are four common ways to clamp the glued up veneer:

vacuum bag (probably the best but requires equipment)
platten, cauls, and clamps
platen and weight
Hammer veneer (with or without contact cement)

With a flat topped guitar like the Tele, it is that much easier. If, you don't vave a vacuum bag / set-up, I'd recommend the platten, cauls, and clamps method. I have used the platten and weight method and been sucessful, but it doesn't apply as much force as clamping.

Veneer prep - flexible and flat. If it is over dry and brittle, use a conditioner to prepare it the day before. Press it flat overnight.

Base material prep- make sure it is flat and clean with no dips where you filled in the pickup pocket.

Platten- i use a piece of 1/2" steel with cork facing the veneer. Without the steel, I would use two flat pieces of 3/4" ply. With the clamp method, I would not use your piece of plate glass.

Cauls- buy or build a minimum of 4 cauls for a tele. These are needed to ensure you have clamping pressure in the middle of the piece.

Clamps- use 8 very strong parallel jaw clamps (they don't need the parallel jaws, but you want as powerful a clamp as possible.

Glue- I use TB veneer glue (but have used both hide glue and contact cement). Let sit for 24 hours before removing clamps.

I have done this numerous times including BE veneer on a guitar body (last one was jazzing up a cheap Flying Vee with beveled front). I have never had a problem with bleed through. You seem hyperconcerned over what is most likely a non-problem.

Ira Rather
02-28-2016, 8:31 AM
We have liftoff:

I used something called HDX spray adhesive, and she went on solid as a rock. As you laid the veneer down, you couldn't budge it a millimeter after it made contact. No bleed through, no bubbles, flat and smooth.

I still have to sand down the edges to the right of the neck pocket, and do a few small patch fixes near the perimeter, but all in all, I'm satisfied. Then it's on to stain testing.

Chris Padilla
03-31-2016, 1:19 PM
Where are you located, Ira? Fill that in on your profile you don't mind. Perhaps there is a local Creeker nearby who can help you.

Chris Fournier
04-03-2016, 12:33 PM
I don't use transtints I use Locke water based aniline dyes, you can buy them at LV. Julie is right, a black sand back will leave you with a muddy finish. To pop BE with your colour scheme I would lay down bright yellow first as I find that this base colour really plays with stage lights. Now you can apply honey tone or amber tone maple dye over top. You may have to tweak the colour a wee bit after this by adding a few drops of red. Done.

As for your filling I'd suggest that you strive for solid wood zero clearance plug fits, easy on the bondo.

Now your veneer, if it's commercially sliced has two faces because of the slicing, one is closed and one is open. You want to glue the open face and finish the closed face. How do your tell which face is which? Gently bend the veneer from side to side and look at the surface, as you bend it you'll see that one face face is far rougher than the other - glue face.

Have fun!