Jenning vs Irwin

[Izzy Camire]

Hi Folks,
I have been tossing around getting a set of Russell Jennings bits. I have a set of decent Irwin bits now but you can never have enough tools.
I did some reading here but I thought I'd get some more info.

Are Jennings bits worth getting and are they better for hardwoods?
Thanks,
Izzy

[Mel Fulks]

All of the Jennings that I've seen have been double twist and the Irwins single twist. Most guys want the double twist ,I can't address the steel quality factor.

[Bill Houghton]

Jennings bits often had finer thread on the lead screw, leading to slower movement through the wood, leading to thinner shavings. In hardwood, an Irwin bit can stall out because the "bite" is too big. I've had them strip the lead screw hole (in the wood) because of that.

It can get tricky, though, because some Jennings bits had double-lead screws that were "faster" than their apparent pitch.

[Izzy Camire]

Jennings bits often had finer thread on the lead screw, leading to slower movement through the wood, leading to thinner shavings. In hardwood, an Irwin bit can stall out because the "bite" is too big. I've had them strip the lead screw hole (in the wood) because of that.

It can get tricky, though, because some Jennings bits had double-lead screws that were "faster" than their apparent pitch.

It would seem that finer threads on the lead screw would be better in hardwood and make it easier to do the drilling.

[David Dalzell]

I have both. I use the Jennings bits when drilling into long grain, whicj is most of the time. However I sometimes drill into end grain. When I di I use the Irwin bits since the Jennings often do not bite (grab) the grain and I am left with only a drilled out lead hole.

[Ray Selinger]

Frankly Irwins are the bottom of my list for solid core bits, nothing wrong with them, but both Stanley and Ridgeway made better ones, cutting geometry and finish. I've got Russell Jennings that are coarse feed.

[Bill Houghton]

It would seem that finer threads on the lead screw would be better in hardwood and make it easier to do the drilling.


Exactly so.

[Mike Holbrook]

I would not buy either one again. Wood Owl Ultra Smooth drill bits are way better than either of the older bits IMHO and they are reasonably priced too. The Wood Owls are made in the same city in Japan where many fine chisels and other hand tools are made. The steel is excellent and although they were designed to work in power drills I use them often in braces as well

[Tony Wilkins]

I have a couple of the TFWW Jennings bits but I prefer my vintage Irwins by far. I have heard good things about the wood owl bits so I might need to give one a try.

[Jim Koepke]

I tend to buy any old bit I can find as long as it hasn't been ruined by a previous owner and it is a dollar or less. The spurs need to be long enough to scribe a full circle before contact is made with the surface by the boring edges.

If it is a large size over an inch, I may go $2 if it is in good shape.

Over time I have rejected a lot of bits for being too high priced or in too bad of shape. During that time I have acquired a pretty good set of bits with duplicates in many sizes. This includes some less than ideal bits that can be used on wood of unknown origin.

Hitting nails or screws with a good bit can make for a bad day.

jtk

[Tom Bussey]

Coarse thread are for soft woods and the fine threads are for hard woods. Actually to be right two sets are needed.

[Jim Koepke]

Coarse thread are for soft woods and the fine threads are for hard woods. Actually to be right two sets are needed.

Please don't tell my wife that two sets are enough. :eek:

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Are you referring to the threaded center starting screw ,or the spiral over the entire cutting depth? I was writing about the spiral over whole boring depth. Sure some others are wondering same thing. I've only seen references to single or double twist and that was referencing overall wind pitch. Not the tip.

[Glen Canaday]

The snail (lead screw) is the important part when talking about the helix. The rest is just for clearing chips.

[Mel Fulks]

Glen ,thanks, that's interesting. Haven't looked at any new ones in a real long time, but I asure you all the catalog descriptions used to focus on single or double twist.

[Matt Evans]

I would not buy either one again. Wood Owl Ultra Smooth drill bits are way better than either of the older bits IMHO and they are reasonably priced too. The Wood Owls are made in the same city in Japan where many fine chisels and other hand tools are made. The steel is excellent and although they were designed to work in power drills I use them often in braces as well

Mike, I looked those up. I might be interested in a set for the shop. Three cutting edges might be an improvement.

The only thing that concerns me is the lack of a spur on the cutting edge. (I might just not be able to see the spurs in the picture) Does it enter and exit rather cleanly, or does extra care need to be taken? I typically use a backer to control blow out, so thats not as large a concern as the entry hole.

[george wilson]

But, how do you sharpen them???:):):) (Oh,no! Another sharpening thread!!!:)

[Steve Voigt]

But, how do you sharpen them???:):):) (Oh,no! Another sharpening thread!!!:)

Yeah, I'll be interested to see if there's an answer to that, George. I suspect the main reason some people buy the wood owl bits is that they come "pre-sharpened"…

[lowell holmes]

I'm sure I am in the minority here, but my inherited complete set of antique Irwins absolutely satisfies my needs. I feel no need for a set of $40 ea bits.:)

They are in a wooden box and are used in my antique Bell systems (Stanley) brace.

I wonder how many know that the bits are 1/64" oversize.

[Steve Voigt]

I'm sure I am in the minority here, but my inherited complete set of antique Irwins absolutely satisfies my needs. I feel no need for a set of $40 ea bits.:)

They are in a wooden box and are used in my antique Bell systems (Stanley) brace.

I wonder how many know that the bits are 1/64" oversize.

Well, I am completely with you. I have a set of Irwins in a wooden box, and a Yankee/Stanley 2101A, and that setup does everything I need.

Oddly, my bits are not oversize by more than a few thou. I think that is not typical though.

[Ray Selinger]

As a poor apprentice I bought the bits one at a time, one worked better than the other so I looked at why. The Stanley had a sharper cutting angle. The English Ridgeway I just acquired, from the estate of a deceased patternmaker was a mixed set, too. Rather than look at brands, look at the cutting edge angle.

[Jim Koepke]

I wonder how many know that the bits are 1/64" oversize.

One explanation I have seen on that is to give clearance for electricians and plumbers in their work.

Some bits actually are right on size. Here is a bit, pun intended, I wrote about auger bits:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?131238-A-Bit-About-Augers

For those who want another sharpening thread, there is a section about sharpening bits included.

One of the Irwin books I have includes 'doweling bits' for a tight fit with dowels.

They also made single spur and other designs to fit the needs of specific trades.

jtk

[Izzy Camire]

Hay thanks to everyone for their input at some point I may grab a couple Jennings bits to try them out.

[Mike Holbrook]

I made a post about the Wood Owls a year or two ago. I took a couple to Country Workshops to a chair making class. Drew was going nuts sharpening old drill bits, trying to get them sharp enough to drill, probably 5/8" holes in white oak for chair rungs, spindles. I got out the wood owl to try it and it went right trough with almost no effort. From that point on the one Wood Owl drilled all the holes for all the chairs in the class without being sharpened. If it is any duller than when it was new I can't tell it.

Yes Matt, there are three spurs, just too small to see in the picture I imagine. I just checked mine again and each spur still seems sharp enough to cut paper. I believe the steel is hardened on the tips, kinda like the Japanese Turbo bowsaw teeth, or Japanese saw teeth in arborist saws like the Silky's. These bits are also advertised as being manufactured to very tight tolerances. However they are made they work like nothing else I have tried. The freaky thing was all the other bits seemed to over heat almost instantly while the Wood Owls just never seemed to get hot. I think the heat is what was wearing the other bits down fast. Schwarz has done blog articles on them at least twice, originally on the rough ones and then on the ultra Smoothes.

Drew Langsner has been around hand tools for longer than most of us and he swore he was going to order some. Everyone in the class was writing down the information to order them. We were all amazed at how well they worked compared to everything else Drew had and he had tons of drill bits, that he personally sharpened.

[george wilson]

My post on sharpening them was a joke. Of course you use the special littler auger bit file. But,actually,DO they make those any more? A tungsten contact point file would work(it could be thicker). Failing all,a needle file would do,or even a slim triangular file might. Grind the top off of the triangle if it contacts the bit in an unwanted place when sharpening.

[lowell holmes]

My post on sharpening them was a joke. Of course you use the special littler auger bit file. But,actually,DO they make those any more?

YEP:) Here are two sources. I have one from Lee Valley

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,320,43072,43089&p=70693

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=auger+bit+file&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=31473266217&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2439236990096290347&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_5vh6cpbtk7_b

[Mel Fulks]

George, I would argue you did not err, but rightly auger (predict the future) as they are still made. Well, I've done my bit,this is starting to spiral out of control.

[Steve Voigt]

I made a post about the Wood Owls a year or two ago. I took a couple to Country Workshops to a chair making class. Drew was going nuts sharpening old drill bits, trying to get them sharp enough to drill, probably 5/8" holes in white oak for chair rungs, spindles. I got out the wood owl to try it and it went right trough with almost no effort. From that point on the one Wood Owl drilled all the holes for all the chairs in the class without being sharpened. If it is any duller than when it was new I can't tell it.

Yes Matt, there are three spurs, just too small to see in the picture I imagine. I just checked mine again and each spur still seems sharp enough to cut paper. I believe the steel is hardened on the tips, kinda like the Japanese Turbo bowsaw teeth, or Japanese saw teeth in arborist saws like the Silky's. These bits are also advertised as being manufactured to very tight tolerances. However they are made they work like nothing else I have tried. The freaky thing was all the other bits seemed to over heat almost instantly while the Wood Owls just never seemed to get hot. I think the heat is what was wearing the other bits down fast. Schwarz has done blog articles on them at least twice, originally on the rough ones and then on the ultra Smoothes.

Drew Langsner has been around hand tools for longer than most of us and he swore he was going to order some. Everyone in the class was writing down the information to order them. We were all amazed at how well they worked compared to everything else Drew had and he had tons of drill bits, that he personally sharpened.

I find it completely unbelievable that Drew Langsner would have any trouble sharpening an auger bit, or drilling white oak with it. I probably have only spent a few hours in my entire life sharpening augur bits, but I have no trouble making clean holes in WO. What sounds more likely to me is that Drew was tired of having to sharpen bits for a class full of guys who couldn't sharpen their own. I can certainly sympathise, and I see how a pre-sharpened bit would be very appealing in those circumstances.

I have read a lot about classes taught by folks like Chris Schwarz and Peter Galbert, and I have noticed an interesting paradox. In the interest of getting a group of beginners to finish a project in a very short time span, they tend to resort to far more jigs and labor-saving devices than they would in their own work. These guys are very self-reliant, capable woodworkers, but I've seen Chris post about using chain mortisers to make benches, and Peter post about using all manner of jigs for sharpening and drilling.

Now, if what you want out of a class is a finished chair/bench/whatever, I can certainly understand that approach. But if you want to learn hand tool skills like chopping mortises or sharpening and using your own drawknives, auger bits, etc., then maybe these sorts of classes aren't the best option. Maybe a class focused on learning specific skills would be better than classes devoted to making product.

Anyway, my question was how easily sharpened the wood owl bits were, and it sound like they're not very. If they are that hard and durable, you'll need a diamond file, and I've never seen a diamond auger file.

I'm not trying to be a killjoy; if folks are happy with their wood owl bits, rock on. Just for myself, I'll stick with my vintage Irwins, because I know if they stop cutting well I can fix the problem myself. And I'm pretty sure they will outlast me.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe a class focused on learning specific skills would be better than classes devoted to making product.

Interesting commentary Steve.

Almost as if a student will learn the steps to building an item, but when they get home they can't because their tools need to be sharpened and they do not know how to sharpen them. The other case would be they learned how to use a chain mortiser and have no idea how to do the work with out the equipment they learned to use.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Steve, the reality of many of these classes is there is more work to get done than there is time to do it. Granted some of this may be due to people who are learning. Another is questions and lectures that eat up time. In the class I was in with Drew, no one was done on time and we all worked until late in the night several nights. Highland Woodworking closes the classes down when the store closes. Drilling the holes in the seats and very hard oak backs was the major impediment to work progressing. Like you I believe students should learn to sharpen. I believe I was the only person in Peter Galbert's or Drew's chair class who brought sharpening gear and stopped to sharpen my own tools. I never said Drew could not sharpen, he certainly can. His problem was keeping all the tools for all the students sharp while they worked. The point concerning the Wood Owl bits is that much like Japanese saws with hardened teeth, they may not require sharpening. I don't sharpen the blades on my Japanese pruning saws or bowsaws, I just replace the blades.

I sympathize with guys like Drew and Peter who have no control over what tools people might or might not bring to the classes. At least one guy showed up at Drew's class without any tools. The point being that these guys do sharpen tools for the people in the classes. I don't know how the people teaching these classes can make sure all their tools, which end up doing a large amount of the work, stay sharp, so they sharpen for people during their classes. They can't really start with a sharpening class. Interestingly, I reached the same place Steve mentions in the three classes I have taken. I would have preferred to have the time to learn more skills and been less rushed to complete the project. Unfortunately many people just want to finish the project so they have something complete to take home.

Drew had the best organized tools I have seen for a class like this. He organized tools for particular work in drawers, one for each student. Over heating of the metal in the tools is a/the major issue. We turned tenons and spindles in this class. It is easy for a new person, new to turning, to dull a very sharp tool in seconds on the lathe. As I recall three of the four students in Drew's class had never turned before, so we learned "on the job". We were drilling holes with a big powerful electric drill that could over heat drill bits in seconds....people were trying to hurry....dull happens frequently. In the three classes I have taken, no one other than the instructors had any type of sharpening equipment, or none that I saw, other than the gear I took.

[Mike Holbrook]

Steve, Jim- I agree completely that focusing on skills, such as how to sharpen, might be the better way to spend time in these classes vs rushing to finish projects. My guess is the places that host these classes put pressure on those doing the teaching to finish projects. They want those pictures of students standing next to finished chairs to use for advertising.

Many students decide what tools they want to buy in these classes, so they lean heavily on the tools that the instructors bring. Galbert sells tools, Langsner sells tools. I suspect a significant reason for some people to do these classes is to sell tools. Galbert has a book on building chairs, Langsner has books and videos. Schwarz is Lost Art Press, which sells books & videos...most people who teach these classes make money from them in multiple ways. Places like Highland Woodworking sponsors these classes not just for the money from the classes, but because the students buy tools and supplies from them for the courses.

[Bill Houghton]

I think Tom meant the lead screw. Coarse lead screws will pull the bit through soft wood faster, but can stall/pull out in hard wood.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have read a good many posts on these pages suggesting Jennings bits but I have also read other posts/blogs/articles in which experienced woodworkers have preferred Irwin bits for all types of wood.

For a woodworker working at his own pace, cooling & sharpening bits as needed, I suspect Jennings or Irwin bits will work fine.

The advantage of the Wood Owl bits is they are manufactured to very tight tolerances of metal that stays cool better and just lasts longer. I have not tried to sharpen any of my Wood Owl bits yet as they do not need it, so I am not sure how easy or hard they may be to sharpen. As compared to buying new Jennings or Irwin type bits the Wood Owls are cheap, probably not much more than what I have paid for used Jennings bits.

Japanese hand saws just about wiped out all other types of saws for years because people figured out they cut fast, lasted a long time without sharpening and were comparatively cheap. If my Wood Owls prove hard to sharpen I will toss them and buy more, like I do with my Japanese Silky saw blades or Iwasaki rasps...

I'm not sure how the metal is treated for some of these Japanese tools but so far I have not been able to wear out: Japanese Turbo Cut saw blades, Iwasaki rasps, Shinto rasps, Wood Owl drill bits or my Silky pruning/woodworking saws. The Silky pruning/woodworking saw blades I have replaced were because I got too rough and broke a tooth or two or the tip of the saw blade. I believe my experience is typical.