New small commercial shop design help sought!

[Gregory Stahl]

Many here like to talk shop and come up with great ideas, so thought I would see what you have to say about designing a small commercial woodworking facility.

I am planning to build with ICF construction. I want the sound dampening and strength vs other methods. We seem to get a lot of tornadoes and straight line winds in my area. The additional cost is minimal and I think it will speed up construction time.

My main predicament is whether I should put in one or two large garage doors. With the drawing below, I have one. The two garage doors inside are fire proof roll up doors, not standard garage doors. These need to be in place to avoid having to install a sprinkler system.

331973 331974

So, the large room to the farthest right is the office/showroom and conference room. Walls will be drawn later.

Next room to the left is going to be the hardwoods shop. I will make doors, face frames and passage doors in here.

To the left is going to be the panel shop. I am shopping for CNC machines and will install one here. Cabinet final assembly will happen here.

The room on the far left is the finish room. Finished work will be stored in here until delivery.

So, is the one door to the outside enough, or would it be much better to have two, one in each shop? I hate to lose the wall space for the second garage door. I am having trouble making this last decision. Time to decide and move forward.

Looking forward to any advise and thoughts anyone would like to share.

Thanks - Greg Stahl

[Martin Wasner]

I'm looking at building a similar sized building. 60x120, plus a 26x30 two story office bumped out on an eve end. I've got four overhead doors planned for drive through bays and air flow in the non heating months. I will have one partition wall to separate the production area from the staging area, but that's it. The shop bathroom will be within the office walls, so everything inside will be as flexible as possible. The doors are at opposite ends of the building on the eve walls. Material in, product out. I will not be doing any finishing at the shop for a long time, so I don't need as many walls. A finish shop will go in the addition if/when that happens.

I looked into icf forms, I can't remember what I came up with for a price, but it was expensive. Concrete has been bonkers here the last few years though. I also looked into tip ups, $180k just for the panels. I settled on stud frame construction. Not my favorite, but I can afford it, and in the tiny town I'm building in it's allowable.

I built a model. I cut a scrap to scale for the building, made scale cut outs of all the equipment so I could juggle things around easily and get a feel for things. Also take into account adding on, what is easy to move, and what you don't ever want to move. Things like a big CNC can weigh 15,000 pounds, and they don't like to be moved.


I don't see a dock. I don't have one planned either, but will out one in if I add onto the building.

My model

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/12744401_10207245380404042_3304232242323179941_n.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=5d20470a44f9b8522ee590ae7d321913&oe=5767D42C

[Brian Tymchak]

Next room to the left is going to be the hardwoods shop. I will make doors, face frames and passage doors in here.

To the left is going to be the panel shop. I am shopping for CNC machines and will install one here. Cabinet final assembly will happen here.
....
So, is the one door to the outside enough, or would it be much better to have two, one in each shop? I hate to lose the wall space for the second garage door. I am having trouble making this last decision. Time to decide and move forward.

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I'm not a building engineer. Is the wall between the hardwoods shop and the panel shop structurally necessary? It it were 1 space, would 1 door be sufficient? The open area could also allow for easier reconfiguration later on.

[Greg R Bradley]

Nice drawing! Chief Architect?

I don't have any input on the building design but you might want to modify your parking area to lead visitors to their door. Also could help to modify design a bit to ensure there is proper big truck access to the shop door. What about a door on the rear of the building, possibly at flatbed height?

[Jim Andrew]

Do you not want a big door on the finish-storage area so you can easily load a truck for delivery?

[Gregory Stahl]

Nice job Martin! I like the arrows showing the feed direction!

I left a dock off too. I have't grown to the point of loading trucks yet. Most of what I do is residential, so truck and trailer works good for me! I have plenty of property to add a dock on to the back of the building later if needed.

ICF vs stick is a tough call. I like stick just for the ability to make changes down the road.

Looking forward to see you build your shop!

Greg

[Gregory Stahl]

I'm not a building engineer. Is the wall between the hardwoods shop and the panel shop structurally necessary? It it were 1 space, would 1 door be sufficient? The open area could also allow for easier reconfiguration later on.

It is a fire wall. Somewhere in the fire code it states the maximum size for a woodworking shop without fire sprinkler protection is 2500 square feet. Sprinklers are expensive and they have a monthly fee associated with a larger water connection, annual sprinkler testing, etc.....

[Gregory Stahl]

Do you not want a big door on the finish-storage area so you can easily load a truck for delivery?

I was thinking the space would be better by not having a door, but the door is adjacent to the finish room anyway. I'll have a forklift so I can move product out easily. Might be a concern though---will have to take into consideration.

[Gregory Stahl]

Nice drawing! Chief Architect?

I don't have any input on the building design but you might want to modify your parking area to lead visitors to their door. Also could help to modify design a bit to ensure there is proper big truck access to the shop door. What about a door on the rear of the building, possibly at flatbed height?

Yes--Chief Architect!

I don't plan to have a lot of customers to the shop, so I wasn't to concerned with their entry. I did leave enough space in front of the building to wrap the parking lot around the front of the building later on if needed though--complete with their own parking in front.

I won't be unloading any trucks at the overhead door. My deliveries are usually all side unload. I do like the idea of a dock on the back of the building, had not considered this. The ground drops away toward the back, so this might work out conveniently. I think I'll frame in a garage door, but fill it in. Later on I can install the garage door if we add a dock or if we expand off the back of the building.

Thanks!

Greg

[Martin Wasner]

What's your plan for dust collection as well? Central unit outside? Individual collectors inside? If you can swing it, getting it outside frees up floor space, lowers noise in the building a bit, and it centralizes disposal. Air lock it into a dumpster, or blow it into a trailer and you're lowering your inputs on wasting time emptying bag units. Doesn't seem like much, but we spend way too much time dealing with sawdust currently. Plus it's a job no one likes. The downside is a big collector costs the same with a shop full of people or one dude at a cut off saw.

[Martin Wasner]

Bump.

Found out yesterday that the county is going to make me sprinkle my new shop. I'm thinking partition walls and just rip them out after inspection. A buddy of mine is a sprinkler fitter, he said $3 per sq/ft was a good rough number for a wet system. I'm already bouncing off the top of my budget, spending at least another $20k on something that will certainly destroy everything in the building that a fire hasn't. Plus the bonus of knocking a head off with a lift and dousing everything is upsetting.

[Gregory Stahl]

Bump.

Found out yesterday that the county is going to make me sprinkle my new shop. I'm thinking partition walls and just rip them out after inspection. A buddy of mine is a sprinkler fitter, he said $3 per sq/ft was a good rough number for a wet system. I'm already bouncing off the top of my budget, spending at least another $20k on something that will certainly destroy everything in the building that a fire hasn't. Plus the bonus of knocking a head off with a lift and dousing everything is upsetting.

Right there with you Martin! The state told me if I keep the square footage of individual rooms at 2500ft or less I would not need sprinklers; so, I am going to do just that!

Expensive fire doors in the walls, but it will be far less than sprinklers and the monthly/annual costs associated with them--larger water service and annual certification inspections.

For dust collection I plan to run two systems--have not made firm decision yet. Definitely one external cyclone for sanding machines as they are governed different in the NFPA code. Most likely a second higher horsepower to run everything else in the shop. In the winter, I will exhaust back to the inside. Looking at 15 or 20hp for this machine.

Slider might run on its own small collector--open bag system. Too many quick cuts to have to spin up large system regularly.

Greg

[Martin Wasner]

It's complete baloney. Sure, wood burns, but there's a lot less flammable stuff in my shop than my house. Less sources of ignition as well. The liability of the system failing and soaking the shop would be devastating. Granted, that does not happen often, but it does.

My current plan for dust collection is a 20hp baghouse outside that I've already got, and a few of the small Oneida high vacuum cyclones on the benches to handle the chop boxes and sanders on the benches. Adding walls, even temporary ones, is going to make running that stuff an absolute nightmare.

I'm planning on dumping the air from the baghouse outside in the summer. Dust collection also serves to cool equipment, so it's sucking heat out of the machine, running it across the ceiling through pipes that are warm, and the dust collector itself makes a bit of heat just from compressing the air. Dumping that hot air back into the shop when it's 80º outside and warmer inside just makes things more miserable. Unless you have AC, then you're just a jerk and I'm jealous. :D

Speaking of AC, I don't be able to afford it right off the bat, but I've got room to do geothermal. AC is much cheaper to run if you can cool the condenser with ground water rather than air. Something like four times as efficient.

[Jim Becker]

I'm actually surprised at the generous 2500 sq ft limit for sprinkler requirement...here, even in residential work, any building project over 1000 sq ft requires sprinklers. We had to install when we put on our home addition in 2008. Fortunately, they didn't require us to retro-fit the rest of the house, especially the part that has 18" thick solid limestone walls!

That's going to be a darn nice shop when you get there!

[Gregory Stahl]

Cyclones in the shop! That is a big no-no, no matter how small. They are forbidden by the NFPA code, have to be outside. Only open collectors are allowed inside a building. Of course, it really comes down to your building and fire inspector. Mine already told me no-way.

I used to think this is way overboard for a small shop, but one burned down about 15 miles from here due to a dust collection fire. Most dust collection fires happen when there is a cleaning feature that shakes the filters. I will never buy one of these types. Unfortunately, my building inspector is the inspector where the fire happened, so he is really well versed in the NFPA codes.

Greg

[Gregory Stahl]

Wow--residental sprinkler codes! These are starting to catch on and spreading across the country. Nothing like that here yet.

[Martin Wasner]

The 2012 or 2013 codes which just went into affect here in Minnesota, new construction homes over 4500 sq/ft had to have fire suppression. But, it's on hold for whatever reason. Everyone in the trades is fighting it it seems.

[Martin Wasner]

Any updates?

I'm slowly watching my dreams die over here.

Being a commercial building, the State wants it drawn up by a Registered Architect. Whatever. Got a bid from one firm. $17,350. Hahaha! Come again? You realize it's just a box right? The amount of baloney is starting to piss me off to the point where I just want to say screw it, and close the doors. I can go live a comparative life of luxury being a greeter at Walmart. I won't wake up in the middle of the night worrying about something or listen to my wife's distaste for working long hours. At least I'd get a bloody paycheck on the regular.

Got a bid for the electrical. I knew it was going to be high from these guys. I was guessing I'd be about $50k for everything if I shopped around, they came in at $110,000.00 on their estimate. Say what? I'm still waiting on another bid. I might have the opportunity to swap labor on it too, as an electrician buddy of mine, (who does primarily commercial commercial stuff), is building a house and will need cabinets for that house

Right now I'm up to $513,000 total cost for a 60x120 stud frame building, with a 25x30, two story bump out for the office/bathrooms/mechanical. That includes the 5.62 acres of land I purchased. Total footage is 8700 sq/ft. I don't know how the heck to do it. I know that some stuff is going to be less, but I realistically need to trim about $100k out to make it even possible, much less affordable. I already paid for the land, but with the cost of the land and capital on hand I've got a shade over $100k to dump into the project, that's marginally enough down to even get the note. That leaves me with a payment of ~$2800/month. Not including probably close to $1000 a month in taxes. The insurance, electrical, and heat add about another $1000 a month. More or less $5k a month I need to spend. That's a tumor just waiting to happen.


I really don't know what to do. My business is strangled in the tiny space we're leasing, I'm throwing money away every single month, and what I have planned is basically enough space for what I currently have. There's a space that will sit empty for a while waiting for a cnc to make it's way there, but that's really about it. I can't grow anymore than I have within these walls. I can't afford more space without the work, I can't do the work without more space. Chicken, meet Egg.

[Mike Heidrick]

My model

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/12744401_10207245380404042_3304232242323179941_n.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=5d20470a44f9b8522ee590ae7d321913&oe=5767D42C

Sure looks small for a 60X120 if those tools are to scale.

[Gregory Stahl]

Any updates?


Moving forward with the engineer. I am hoping plans are finalized and submitted to the state by the end of the week. With the weather getting nice, I really want to get started.

Hang in there--you can find a way to make it work! If it gets really bad, hire a pole barn company to build you something and they will deal with all the requirements! Submit the plans as rentable warehouse space--just don't mention woodworking!

I have the same issues to deal with as you. The highest quote I got from an architect was a maximum price of $8k. I ended up going with the guy who designed my house, and his engineer. Price will come in around $3k ($2k will be in the form of a table he requested--architect likes to barter!). The engineer is 45-minutes outside of town--probably the reason for the good price! He has done some very nice buildings around Madison WI though. It helped that I gave him all my drawings to save a lot of time. Many wouldn't even talk to me!

My 60x144 will probably come in around $260k for the building when complete. Land is paid for. This includes hiring my brother-in-law to do the framing with me to save some cash (he is in construction and experienced). I'll probably do the electrical too--I have experience in this area. Most of my wiring is going to be in conduit screwed to the wall--nothing fancy. The state does not prohibit the building owner from doing his own electrical. Plumbing and HVAC have to be subbed out though because it is commercial! Heat is going to be overhead radiant--low cost. I'm going to install myself and pay for them to hook it up. I may install a conventional furnace and air conditioning in the office. We will see what the bids come in at. I think I have enough budgeted for it. I would have liked in-floor, but the material alone was $30k!

Have to get the building done this summer at all costs. I saw some of the newer regulations coming down the pipe. Wisconsin is a bit behind--thank goodness. The 2500 sq ft with firewalls to eliminate sprinklers might be abolished in the next adoption.

Biggest and only real change right now is switching to 2x8 wood framing from icf. I decided I did not want to take on the risk and am subbing out far more work than anticipated. Stick-built commercial buildings seem to be very popular right now in my area--they are going up everywhere.

BTW--I'm in St. Paul until Wednesday--not far from you. IIRC.........

Greg

[Gregory Stahl]

Martin,

Forgot to ask--what are you using for a CNC and software? I flew down to Stiles in NC and drooled over all the equipment on display there. I really want a CNC after watching the Weeke Vantech pump out perfect cabinet parts fast! I really liked the beam saws too--but that is the woodworker in me that has to take a back seat to the best economics for the shop!

Thanks--Greg

[Daniel O'Neill]

The 2012 or 2013 codes which just went into affect here in Minnesota, new construction homes over 4500 sq/ft had to have fire suppression. But, it's on hold for whatever reason. Everyone in the trades is fighting it it seems.

It's part of the national code now but each city county & state can adopt it with amendments. Where I work they took it out because it adds too much cost to the building. Insurance companies I'm sure were pushing this as it will reduce their cost substantially.

[Martin Wasner]

Sure looks small for a 60X120 if those tools are to scale.

They are to scale. They're within inches of the real thing. The CNC is a bit of a wag, the one I'm looking at says it needs a 16x16 area.




Moving forward with the engineer. I am hoping plans are finalized and submitted to the state by the end of the week. With the weather getting nice, I really want to get started.

Hang in there--you can find a way to make it work! If it gets really bad, hire a pole barn company to build you something and they will deal with all the requirements! Submit the plans as rentable warehouse space--just don't mention woodworking!

I have the same issues to deal with as you. The highest quote I got from an architect was a maximum price of $8k. I ended up going with the guy who designed my house, and his engineer. Price will come in around $3k ($2k will be in the form of a table he requested--architect likes to barter!). The engineer is 45-minutes outside of town--probably the reason for the good price! He has done some very nice buildings around Madison WI though. It helped that I gave him all my drawings to save a lot of time. Many wouldn't even talk to me!

My 60x144 will probably come in around $260k for the building when complete. Land is paid for. This includes hiring my brother-in-law to do the framing with me to save some cash (he is in construction and experienced). I'll probably do the electrical too--I have experience in this area. Most of my wiring is going to be in conduit screwed to the wall--nothing fancy. The state does not prohibit the building owner from doing his own electrical. Plumbing and HVAC have to be subbed out though because it is commercial! Heat is going to be overhead radiant--low cost. I'm going to install myself and pay for them to hook it up. I may install a conventional furnace and air conditioning in the office. We will see what the bids come in at. I think I have enough budgeted for it. I would have liked in-floor, but the material alone was $30k!

Have to get the building done this summer at all costs. I saw some of the newer regulations coming down the pipe. Wisconsin is a bit behind--thank goodness. The 2500 sq ft with firewalls to eliminate sprinklers might be abolished in the next adoption.

Biggest and only real change right now is switching to 2x8 wood framing from icf. I decided I did not want to take on the risk and am subbing out far more work than anticipated. Stick-built commercial buildings seem to be very popular right now in my area--they are going up everywhere.

BTW--I'm in St. Paul until Wednesday--not far from you. IIRC.........

Greg


Yeah, I won't touch electrical stuff. I'm not smart enough to keep my fingers out of loud spinning blades. An open panel is an open invitation for me to ride the lightning.

I think my HVAC cost was around $55k. The hanging heaters are a much less expensive option, but I've got heated floors now, and I don't think I could give them up. The office will be run off of mini-splits for secondary heat and for cooling. I've got a lot more overhead doors than you do as well. I think the quote on that was $17k for two 16', and two 20', both sizes are 14' tall.

I'm likely going to have to do a 2x8 wall as well. Originally the plan was to do a 8' poured wall to the footing, then stack a 12', 2x6 wall on top. The foundation work was something like $55k, and I couldn't swallow that. Doing the foundation out of block and core filled is $16k to bring it up to grade.

If you're driving up Hwy 52 to St. Paul, my shop is about 15 minutes off of Hwy 52. You're welcome to swing by if you like. I'm about half way between Rochester and St. Paul.








Martin,

Forgot to ask--what are you using for a CNC and software? I flew down to Stiles in NC and drooled over all the equipment on display there. I really want a CNC after watching the Weeke Vantech pump out perfect cabinet parts fast! I really liked the beam saws too--but that is the woodworker in me that has to take a back seat to the best economics for the shop!

Thanks--Greg


No CNC currently. I've narrowed it down I think to an Andi model. Most likely a Omnitech Sellexx in a 5x10. There is nowhere to put anything else in my tiny little shop. The Weeke cnc's are sweet, but the come with a sweet price tag too. I'm not sure it's a justifiable expense if you're not running full shifts with it, which no small shop would be. I don't romanticize my job. I'm just here to make money. The right tool for the job. The way I'm doing cut out right now is pretty outdated, but I don't have anywhere to put the proper tooling at the moment, and it'll take a few years for me to feel safe making that kind of a capital investment after swallowing the new shop pill.


I'm using Cabnetware. I don't think it really exists anymore? Best I can tell is that Planit rolled Cabnetware into Cabinetvision. I'm going to have to upgrade that as well before getting a cnc. Another probably $20k in software I really won't enjoy spending. I had a salesman in here when I enquired about upgrading versions, and they were pushing Cabinetvision, it seemed like the exact same thing I was running, just more options than what I currently have.

[Joe Jensen]

A bit off topic, on CNC. I've read a ton of articles on commercial shops moving to CNC. Make sure you consider all the costs, labor removed, rework removed, jobsite installs going smoother, material waste reduction, etc. From the articles I've read it seems that a CNC with an operator and a low wage load and unload worker replace 5-6 heads. When I was last at IWS I talked with a vendor selling robots to load and unload CNCs. The lease cost was like $200 per month for each. That $400 a month is a lot less than labor, benefits, and taxes.

[jack duren]

334741
A bit off topic, on CNC. I've read a ton of articles on commercial shops moving to CNC. Make sure you consider all the costs, labor removed, rework removed, jobsite installs going smoother, material waste reduction, etc. From the articles I've read it seems that a CNC with an operator and a low wage load and unload worker replace 5-6 heads. When I was last at IWS I talked with a vendor selling robots to load and unload CNCs. The lease cost was like $200 per month for each. That $400 a month is a lot less than labor, benefits, and taxes.

CNC has a + - depending on how it is used. In commercial most parts are square and can be somewhat compared. They break, operators take off sick,layouts aren't ready on time,wrong materials used,waiting on parts,etc..There's a lot more to its operation than profits.
Where they are useful.....

As far as dust collection. There's a lot of ways to skin a cat if you look around. Used and a horse farm takes the saw dust. No dumpster.

[Gregory Stahl]

Received conditional approval today from the state! I had to invest a significant amount of money to achieve this, but the major hurdle is over. Construction can start after Village Board approval next Monday night. I have no idea why they would not approve--I expect unanimous approval.

You should see the building now--it has gotten significantly more expensive, but looks cool. It only cost me the big chunk of change I was saving for a down payment on a new CNC machine :-(

Greg

[Martin Wasner]

You're not building on commercial ground?

[Mike Heidrick]

All you need is a cnc shapeoko anyway right? Your approval cost more than my shed.

[Rick Fisher]

Well.

I would consider a garage door and man door in each of the 4 segments. The reason is for building value. If you run into hard times, you can rent out one of the 1/4's .. You never know what will happen.

If you keep the building, the day will probably come you will want to rent it out as retirement income. Normally 4 smaller spaces will net you more income than one big one.

Otherwise great plan.

On the Architect, tell him to make sure he saves you $18,000 with good money saving ideas.


Only other thing I would do is gable the roof on the front because it creates a decent spot for a sign. And run wiring up there for a lit sign, or lights to show your sign off..

What about Skylights to allow natural light ?

[Gregory Stahl]

Yes--commercial business park.

[Gregory Stahl]

Here is what I ended up with after working with architect. Went with gable ends and bumped up to 6/12 pitch. More room for overhead radiant heat, and conventional duct in front room. This is more along the lines of my initial plan. The peak is about 30' tall.

I am framing garage doors for the far back room, but filling them in for now. Wife is thinking we should expand in a year to add on rental units as there is strong demand around here. If that develops, I will move storage back into one of the units, and then back room will be finishing only.

Plenty of room for a nice sign on the front. I'm going for an old rustic/alpine feel to the building. A wood sign with metal lights that curve up an over shining down on it is in the works. Old--billboard style.

For the retail side of things, thinking of a new retail name. Hickory Hills or Kettle Creek are the front runners, both based on local topology.

337660

[Gregory Stahl]

All you need is a cnc shapeoko anyway right? Your approval cost more than my shed.

Ha-ha.... I am a Biesse CNC fan now! Went to Charlotte to look them over last week at their Encore Event. Very, very nice!

Made passage doors on a Rover. I am sold--a couple minutes for what I spend a couple hours doing! Cut out a base cabinet. 2-minutes, 10-seconds! Very little dust, some extractor thing on the router that worked great!

[Martin Wasner]

Not picking on you, just questions and thoughts as I'm going through the same BS.


What is your ceiling height? From the elevations it looks very low. I'm planning on a 16' sidewall just for resale. I wish I could go 20'. (I also wish I could go tip up panels) The cheapest storage you've got is going up. 12' works, but it's nice being able to stack spare units of material right at the ceiling. It also takes more dust collection to lift material higher.


How big are the overhead doors? I'm planning on 2, 16x14, and 2, 20x14. Partially the same reason, resale. I might have to delete one of the 16' overhead doors just to save some money, but I really don't want to loose the airflow that door will provide. Also nobody ever whines about the door being too big to get something in. The shop next door has just one 10' overhead door and half an hour ago I unloaded 10' mdf with my forklift. Doesn't fit through a 10' door. Also, spec out the 3" commercial doors, instead of the 2". Much more durable, higher R value. Also much more expensive, but I think worth it. Make sure to get the commercial openers as well.

I totally get wanting your building to look nice. It's been one of my goals from the start and I didn't want just another steel box, but at the end of the day pretty doesn't make you money. Production space does. I had 1500 sq/ft of office and showroom planned out, I think that's getting wiped out since the $100k I spend on that could easily go somewhere else, (like rental space). I don't deal with customers at the shop though, so my view is skewed. I don't work with the public too often, almost solely builders and their designers, they don't care about showrooms.

You've got a lot of pass doors. Windows and doors create potential security problems. The more points of entry you have, the more points thieves or vandals will have to get in. Might never be a problem, but.

What are you bringing in for electrical service? It may cost more now, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper to bring in extra amperage in now than running a parallel feed in the future. When I got my new widebelt I had to bring in another service. That extra 200 amps cost me $5000. I'm planning on bringing in 800 amps of 480V in my new shop. That's twice my needs right now, but when you start getting into bigger equipment, it goes way too quickly. Moulder, big sander, CNC, big rip saw, etc. chew up the juice quickly. If you're running a 10hp spindle, and a 40hp vacuum pump on a cnc, you're going to need ~155 amps on 208V. On 480V you'll only need ~70 amps. My boiler for the in floor heat pulls 200 amps on 208V, less than half on 480V. Switch gear has cost, the breakers cost more, a step down transformer has cost, but everything you can switch over to 480V the better. Less wire, less pipe, or you can jamb more stuff into one pipe. You can run the lighting in a shop that size on a 15amp breaker running off the high leg too. We run out of distribution pretty quickly since we have so many small pieces of equipment. The more you can put on one circuit the better. Have you got a electrical bid yet? Buckle up if you haven't, my first bid was $110,000



Depending on what you get, from what I can tell Biesse builds a good CNC. Woodweb is an excellent source for CNC info. There's a lot of big guys running them hard on there and the weak get shouted down quickly. Check out an Andi router as well. I've been looking at the Omnitech Selexx in a 5x10 myself. Don't bother with their vacuum pump. Way too small unless all you're doing is full sheets of melamine. The most important thing is service. How quickly can you get parts? Don't buy anything with a Seimens controller. I've read about a lot of problems that the Fanuc just doesn't seem to have. Money no object, I'd get a Weeke.

[Gregory Stahl]

The walls are 14' 4 1/2" at the side, and vaulted up to almost 22' at the peak inside. The outside peak is about 30'. The 6/12 pitch hides about 1 1/2' of wall at the top, makes the building look not as tall.

The garage doors are 14' wide and 12' tall. I do have 3" thick doors already spec'd from a local door company. They are also providing the steel roll-up fire doors in the barrier walls. These are pricey but necessary. Total garage door quote is $15k-something installed, commercial openers and fire controls for the roll ups. 3" thick outside doors R-twenty-something.

Unfortunately, doors are a necessity. I believe the architect said we need two exits for every area. Some of the exits can be internal to another area, bit in the end this is what we came up with to meet code. We were concerned they would require doors in the window side of the building--really did not want those!

I am not to worried about thieves. My current shop was broke into just before I moved in. Thieves knocked a whole in the wall and went into plumbers shop and stole all his copper! I may install a security system with motion detectors in the new shop. Current shop has ADT, but it is not always in use.

For electrical, I will bring in 480V. Have to work with electric company to see if I should put in a transformer for the 208V or if I can bring both in. They plan to put the transformer right outside my building.

I'll be doing the electrical, or most of it. I have experience. I did budget enough to get panels installed if I am running behind--not certain if an electrician would do just this though.

I looked over the Weeke Vantech very well and was wanting this machine for some time. I just returned from Biesse in Charlotte last week. I went in thinking I was just shopping and there was no way they were going to get me to break away from Stiles. Well, I have to say I was very impressed! I believe Biesse is more advanced with CNC technology than Weeke. Specifically, the Rover S is a phenomenal machine. The Rover S has C-axis capability as well! This will turn the machine into more than just a panel CNC. I plan to use it for passage doors and am working with Rangate to see if I can cope and stick cabinet doors on it. The answer is yes--people are doing it!

I paid a lot for engineering and architects in the end, but I believe it was well worth it. Got through the state on our first attempt. It is much easier working with contractors when you send them very detailed, well designed plans!

Best,
Greg

[Gregory Stahl]

More comments regarding the Biesse Rover S. We cut out a complete base cabinet, dowel construction, bored holes for shelf. The Rover S cut the complete cabinet (4x8 sheet) out in 2-minutes 10-seconds! There was very little dust--they had a device on the spindle that sucked most of it out!

HSD heads are on the Biesse and Vantech. HSD is part of the Biesse group of companies!

The second day I was there, Biesse made solid wood passage doors on a Rover K. My jaw dropped. What I do in a couple hours, they did in minutes! I am thinking I can do the same on the Rover S--just a little more setup time with the pods.

[Martin Wasner]

How's your nightmare going?

I'm hoping to pull my permit in August. If I can get the loan sorted before then I'll get the excavator going on the pad, driveway, and parking lot so the carpenters aren't wading through mud. I can move dirt without a permit fortunately.

[Gregory Stahl]

FINALLY, ready to break ground! Just got the zoning approval end of last week. Insurance and financing should be ready in the next week. I have enough saved to start construction and will do so while waiting on financing if it takes longer than next week. Bank said loan is all ready to go, just waiting on appraisal to come in. Appraisals are over three weeks here because of the housing boom. Next week is three weeks. So, planning to break ground in about two weeks, maybe a little less.

I still have a lot of little things to do, but I can start construction. I need to get the landscape plan approved, the truss design stamped and submitted to the state for approval(state is requiring a review of this), sign approval and building light plan approved (state and village both requiring plan to be approved). There is probably a few more little things too, the list never ends with these government bodies.....

Insurance came in low, very happy with that! This includes a builders risk policy.

I thought I would have the building done by now when I started this project! Still, from purchase of property to completion will be under 1-year.

My shop landlord is adding about 9000 ft to his building. Construction is at 7-months already and the site is still a mess, but building is almost complete. His concrete guys took two weeks on the slab alone!

To pass the time--I spend what little free time I have watching Biesse and Stiles CNC videos. I'm definitely automating!

[Martin Wasner]

Ask your bank if you can start moving dirt before the appraisal. Any work prior to the appraisal can be problematic if the sub decides to f with you and put a lien on the project for things that the bank didn't cut a check for. They want the property free of incumbrances. Most of the time I believe they want you to dump your money into an escrow account , then they pay the draws.

I hear you on "I thought I'd be done by now" What bunch of bs it is trying to grow your business.

[Gregory Stahl]

Went over that with the bank already--they are good with it. I have enough cash to cover the excavation, so it should not be a problem.

[Martin Wasner]

Lucky you. My bank told me no. I could've covered all the site work too, but I was instructed to hold off. Would've been nice to have done it last year and given everything a frost cycle to settle.

[Martin Wasner]

How's the progress?

[Gregory Stahl]

Coming along. Framing right now. We had several weeks of rain delays. I had to pump for two weeks! Foundation guys were way behind because of this. We are in week 7 of construction, so not the end of the world, but the rain has cost me about $15k extra. When I say rain, I am talking several storms with inches of rain! I think with one storm alone, we got 8" in a couple of days.

We are backfilled now, so rain is running off property real nice.

Also, had to undercut half of the foundation due to buried topsoil, and the topsoil was anywhere from 12"-24" thick that we removed! With the parking lot included, I am going to have almost $30k of fill into this project!

I had a soil engineering company come out and evaluate. They did not charge much and stopped out 6 or 7-times. Best investment and it includes a nice 10+ page report I can include if I sell the place.

I'll post pictures soon, been way too busy!

Greg

[Martin Wasner]

Yeah, the weather this summer was interesting. If you get it, chances are it blew through here ten hours earlier.

Glad to hear you're making progress!

[Gregory Stahl]

Update on framing--we are so over budget with the rain and fill costs, I decided to save some money and pick up the 2x8s and OSB from Menards. There is a store about 40-minutes from here that has lower pricing than all the other stores around (local economy not so hot due to large GM factory closing years ago), so the savings were substantial, and with the 11% rebate, the material was about 20% lower priced than local Menards stores.

So--I felt comfortable doing this as I have been noticing premium units of lumber lately at the stores. Canfor is a brand that sells for premium prices around here, and Menards has been getting many of these in stock--select SPF lumber. So, I decided on Hampton Lumber 2x8s as I waited too long and missed the Canfor units--someone else probably grabbed them up! I knew the Hampton's would likely be a fir species which would be stronger than the Canadian SPF. Anyway--I opened the Hampton 2x8s today, and was happily surprised at what was staring back at me! Select Structural Douglas Fir--stamped premium! Wow! This stuff sells for more at the expensive lumber yards. Douglas Fir stays straight and is much stronger than SPF. My building is going to be strong, very strong!

I'll post some pics soon.

Greg

[Mike Heidrick]

Love the 11% rebates! I Ordered the last of my needed paint (40 gallons more) on Monday and it was at the local Menards store Tuesday at noon. Also the 2X6 bunk I bought last year was/is awesome. I have good luck with them.

[Martin Wasner]

You promised us pictures Mr. Stahl...


+1 on the Menards rebate. I bought all of the LP siding there, and the insulation. $18k between the two. Then there was the $6800 I spent on foam for under the slab, that one showed up the other day. I've got about $2700 coming back, that's going to go a long ways to help pay for the sheeting inside of my building.


(edit)- BTW, have you reached the point of pulling your hair out yet? And have you come to the conclusion it's either going to be the smartest thing you've ever done, or the stoooopidest? You're just not sure which?

[Gregory Stahl]

Sorry, been so busy with the shop. I can't get contractors to work on the thing--no one seems to want to work around here. Too many houses going up and not enough tradesmen.

Yea--I have past that point. I had to install a manhole so they can inspect my waste water. Didn't see this one coming until the inspector mentioned it the day before lateral was to go in. Now, I need to wait for Neenah Foundry to provide the manhole cover as it is not standard. Big waste of money. I am the first service in this village to have this requirement.

You are further along than I am on building progress. I hope to have all trusses up in the next few days. We are 24" on center with doubled trusses for firewalls. I think there is 74 trusses. They are topped, and we have to install those yet. I think we will catch-up in the next few weeks though.

I had a new guy work today--he did great work. Maybe we are turing a corner. I hope to be weather tight in a couple weeks.

Did you have to install a layer of continuous insulation on the exterior? It looks like I will have to wrap the building in a layer of pink foam.

For exterior, wife and I have decided on Hardie Board. We were going to shingle roof, but I am thinking metal now that it is so cold and we can get it on quick. We'll see.

Concrete company wants to put floor in after the holidays. I am hoping to be ready for him. I think we will.

When I started, I wanted building done in 4-months. Looks more like I'll be setting-up machinery at about 5-months time.

Here is a picture to give you an idea of building size. It will be 30' to the peak once the tops are on. The horizontal blocking is in increments of 4' for the sheer wall. The interior height at the peak will be just under 22'

349063

Greg





You promised us pictures Mr. Stahl...


+1 on the Menards rebate. I bought all of the LP siding there, and the insulation. $18k between the two. Then there was the $6800 I spent on foam for under the slab, that one showed up the other day. I've got about $2700 coming back, that's going to go a long ways to help pay for the sheeting inside of my building.


(edit)- BTW, have you reached the point of pulling your hair out yet? And have you come to the conclusion it's either going to be the smartest thing you've ever done, or the stoooopidest? You're just not sure which?

[Martin Wasner]

. Did you have to install a layer of continuous insulation on the exterior? It looks like I will have to wrap the building in a layer of pink foam.


Nope, just tyvek wrap on the outside. I've got a 2x8 wall, I think with fiberglass insulation I've got an R29 wall. Not including the sheeting, which isn't much.


I'm not impressed with Hardi board. They've had some serious shrinkage issues. Even worse with the Certainteed brand.

[Mike Heidrick]

Why that truss design for a shop? looks good but it has to be super cold up there this week. Its cold here!!

[Gregory Stahl]

Why that truss design for a shop? looks good but it has to be super cold up there this week. Its cold here!!
It is not bad--I am comfortable in cold weather. We are further along than the picture.

I wanted scissors trusses for the overhead radient heat to get as high up as possible. The tubes should be above the 16' line. I like the look of a more steep roof as well--this is only 6/12 pitch. That results in this truss.

[Mike Heidrick]

what are you thinking lighting wise and how much of it?

[Gregory Stahl]

T5 or LED--havn't decided. T5 seens much brighter. I run 4-bulb T5 in my current shop and really like them. My landlord just converted to LED in his shop--it looks good too.

[Mike Heidrick]

Might be a little tall/big for affordable LED.

[Greg R Bradley]

T5 or LED--havn't decided. T5 seens much brighter. I run 4-bulb T5 in my current shop and really like them. My landlord just converted to LED in his shop--it looks good too.
Depending on layout and intended mounting height, you will probably be best off with these: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-High-Bay-Industrial-6-Light-Grey-Hanging-Fluorescent-Fixture-IB-632-MVH/202193185
They have them available in a pallet at around $77 each. I really like the 120-277v power and the ability to power 3 bulbs on one circuit and the other 3 on a second. Vary your lighting according to need. Of course, you may not have skylights where you get so little sunlight, which may factor in to the decision.

4 bulb T5HO fixtures are the same 14,400 lumens per fixture but with the smaller area can be a bit harsh if you want to mount lower than 14-15'. Bulbs are a bit more and a bit shorter life so the costs are a bit more. Basically the introduction of the T-5 tech and the intended forcing to metric system for light caused the T-8 manufacturers to up their game and eliminate any of the initial advantages to T-5 tech except profit on the fixture manufacturing. Their are enough killer deals on fixtures like the one above to kill that advantage also. 4' T-8 is an easy change to LED bulbs when they eventually improve that tech a bit more.

Will there be racking along the 14' tall walls so you don't want fixtures real close to the side walls?

[Martin Wasner]

I'm not huge on the T5. The lumens are higher, but they tend to make shadows. They are also fairly inefficient compared to the new fluorescents. I never remember if that's a T8 or 12. T5's are also made to be 16' or more off the floor.

LED just isn't there yet in my opinion.

The newer fluorescents are quite as efficient as led but really close. And the cost is nowhere near what LED is for the fixtures and bulbs. That's the route I'm going.

[peter gagliardi]

T5's are the newest most efficient flourescent type. Remember, lower number=lower energy use. Just had my shop retrofitted from T5 and T8 fixtures to newer LED bulbs as part of the power companies mandated and incentivized program by the govt. $14-15,000 job, that I only pay 30% of.
Greg, regarding metal roofing, be careful, go standing seam only. The screw down panels start leaking by year #5, then you have to go up, remove all screws, and replace the washers under the heads.
Too late now, but regarding heating- the very best heat for a wood shop is radiant tube in the floor if you are going concrete.
Most efficient as well. Cheaper insurance too because no incendiary risk from a heat burning and emitting appliance in dusty environs.
I have had just about every kind of heat in shops, I now have radiant tube in floor- wow, just wow is all i can say.
I just found these shop threads, so now I will go back and read from the start.
You and Martin are going to have some pretty nice spaces in your new shops!

[Martin Wasner]

According to a commercial electrician buddy, the T5 is less efficient.

I second the in floor radiant heat. It's far from too late, he doesn't have a slab yet. Right now, its way cheaper to go propane, (or better yet natural gas), than an electric boiler. But, propane is hovering around a buck a gallon. A few years ago the farmers were drying hard, a train derailed, and a pipeline was shut down for whatever reason, we were getting rationed around here, and it was almost $5/gallon. Propane/Nat gas won't stay the cheapest forever, I'd consider looking into getting both boilers and switching to whatever is cheapest at the moment.

[Martin Wasner]

I can't edit in the mobile version of the site. Grrrr. The T5 is less efficient than a T8 he said. Unless I misunderstood something

[Greg R Bradley]

The efficiency of T8, T5, and LED can pretty much be considered to be equal. If you are using T8 or T5 properly, then converting to LED in a typical retail, shop, or warehouse environment is a scam. Of course, if you have T12 lighting then converting to T8, T5, or LED almost always makes sense. However, there are lots of variables in each technology, lots to be saved in proper use of each technology, and choosing the best technology for your use.

Good commercial shop/warehouse T8, T5, LED will all be in the 85-95 lumens per watt range when looking at the entire fixture over a 5 year period of 40-60 hour a week use.

In a commercial shop or warehouse, you just can't say one technology is best unless you want to say T12 Florescents with magnetic ballasts always need to go away.

If you are having radiant heat in ceiling, will there be lights below that where they would be blocking the heat from the people?

[Gregory Stahl]

If you are having radiant heat in ceiling, will there be lights below that where they would be blocking the heat from the people?


No, nothing below radiant heat tubes.

[Mike Heidrick]

Not following then on the peek is there for the radiant tube to be high as possible. How will lights on the sides of shop at 14.5-15 not be below a tube in peek at 22?

[peter gagliardi]

Greg, not sure where you got 30k for in floor radiant heating? 3/4" tubing can be had for about $ 0.50 per sq ft, add 2" insulation under it, thats gonna run you about $1.00 sq ft. Boiler about $5k, add another 2k for pumps and manifolds. That might put you around $20k.
The difference between that and overhead radiant can't be too far off, by the time you buy all those units, and pipe to them with gas.

[Martin Wasner]

Mine ended up being $23k for the installed pipe and boiler. I spent a bit less than $7k on 2" foam. His building is a bit larger, but he's likely in the ballpark.

[Gregory Stahl]

The complete heating and air conditioning with 3 overhead radiant heat systems, a conventional furnace for the front, and air conditioning for the front, with all gas lines run is about $21k.

The bids I received for in-floor radiant were significantly higher.

At this point, to put in-floor radiant in, I would have to pay an engineer to design it, and then submit to state for approval. I am very satisfied with overhead radiant. It heats very fast and I can leave portions of the building cool--45-50-degrees when not using them.

I'll think about it further, but most likely am not going to change.

Can you drive a laser screed machine over the tubes and insulation? If not, this will probably add $6-$8k to the concrete work. Concrete guys are going to pour my entire shop floor in under 4-hours.

[Martin Wasner]

Yes, you can drive a laser screed over it. Or at least I have seen it done.

You could easily do zones to keep a room cooler.

Might want to bite the bullet and do the cheap part and put the pipe in the floor anyways? Just for future use?

I hate those tube heaters. I've worked in three shops that had it, not a fan.

[Mike Heidrick]

Blueridgecompany polebarn kit will get you setup with pex, manifold, ties, etc in a packahe and a layout of how to best run the loops. Just tell them the building size, where you want the manifold, and the zones. Tie the pex right to your rebar or mesh in the layout they provide. I had meshup mesh risers and my pex is in the middle of my 5" slab exactly.

[Martin Wasner]

I had meshup mesh risers and my pex is in the middle of my 5" slab exactly.

It gets stapled to the foam here. I'd be squeamish setting anchors with 2" of room.

[Gregory Stahl]

Blueridgecompany polebarn kit will get you setup with pex, manifold, ties, etc in a packahe and a layout of how to best run the loops. Just tell them the building size, where you want the manifold, and the zones. Tie the pex right to your rebar or mesh in the layout they provide. I had meshup mesh risers and my pex is in the middle of my 5" slab exactly.

I believe this is considered plumbing in Wisconsin and therefore I am not able to do any of it DIY. Commercial work was restricted for several years, and now new residential construction is restricted to being done under the guidance of a licensed master plumber.

Anyway--I did get a quote a year ago from Radiantec. They wanted about $19k for materials.

[Gregory Stahl]

I'll have to think more about.

I love my tube heaters! I use them to cure finishes faster!


Yes, you can drive a laser screed over it. Or at least I have seen it done.

You could easily do zones to keep a room cooler.

Might want to bite the bullet and do the cheap part and put the pipe in the floor anyways? Just for future use?

I hate those tube heaters. I've worked in three shops that had it, not a fan.

[peter gagliardi]

Massachusetts is pretty strict with plumbing here as well, but... when running tubing- tying it to mesh, there is technically no plumbing. You run your 300' or so loops, and leave them stubbed up in the manifold area, then when done, your plumber makes the connections- the actual "plumbing" part of the job.
I did all my own tubing. Trust me, you dont need skilled people for this. Farmtek has the tube for around $0.50 LF. Like Martin said, you can zone this. I have 4 thermostats in various areas. My wood storage is set to 52, my machining area 62, my bench and assembly area 62, and my finishing area i run at around 72-74 depending how much the exhaust fan is going to run.
I fully understand if you have already crossed that bridge in your mind.
And like Martin said, if you can tie down the piping beforehand, even if you dont use, you have the option.

[Martin Wasner]

You mentioned steel instead of shingles. Being that you're 2' OC with the trusses, I'm assuming it will be sheeted? Something to consider is that you might have to do ice and water up the entire roof if it is sheeted with steel over the top. That is the way it is done around here anyways.

I can't tell from your picture if it is partially sheeted or not. But if it just has bracing on it, you could just do purlins and screw the steel to that.

I agree with Peter that standing seam is better, but his five year estimate on the washers faulting is over zealous.

[peter gagliardi]

Martin, I only know because we built my brother's house five years ago, he used screw down roofing, and it is leaking. When I started asking around some of the roofing outfits, they all agreed trouble starts about 5 years in.

[Gregory Stahl]

You mentioned steel instead of shingles. Being that you're 2' OC with the trusses, I'm assuming it will be sheeted? Something to consider is that you might have to do ice and water up the entire roof if it is sheeted with steel over the top. That is the way it is done around here anyways.

I can't tell from your picture if it is partially sheeted or not. But if it just has bracing on it, you could just do purlins and screw the steel to that.

I agree with Peter that standing seam is better, but his five year estimate on the washers faulting is over zealous.

No sheeting on yet. Standing seam is nice, but adds cost and labor. If you screw down on the ribs, I think the water leaking potential should be significantly reduced. I think a lot of metal roofs have screws over tightened--can't resist the urge to make it tight.

Another tough decision to make in the next week! I have metal roof samples coming--but have already paid for all the shingle material, though I can get a refund and have not taken delivery. The 12" of snow falling this weekend might make the decision for me.

[Gregory Stahl]

You mentioned steel instead of shingles. Being that you're 2' OC with the trusses, I'm assuming it will be sheeted? Something to consider is that you might have to do ice and water up the entire roof if it is sheeted with steel over the top. That is the way it is done around here anyways.


I don't think I will have to--the roof pitch is 6/12. Architect and engineer did not call for anything other than 15lb felt after perimeter ice and dam material. I bought synthetic underlayment though.

[Martin Wasner]

I don't think I will have to--the roof pitch is 6/12. Architect and engineer did not call for anything other than 15lb felt after perimeter ice and dam material. I bought synthetic underlayment though.

That was for shingles though. I was helping one of my contractors frame a house with standing seam and he had to do ice and water on a 10/12 here with standing seam. I'd still ask about it. There might have been circumstances with that house that I'm unaware of too.

[Gregory Stahl]

That was for shingles though. I was helping one of my contractors frame a house with standing seam and he had to do ice and water on a 10/12 here with standing seam. I'd still ask about it. There might have been circumstances with that house that I'm unaware of too.

The prints were drawn for steel roof. I like the look of shingles better and wanted to go with them.

Also, does not mean my architect is correct. I'll look into further.

[Martin Wasner]

How's the progress Mr Stahl? I'm hoping things are going well, and if they aren't, misery loves company.

[Gregory Stahl]

Things are finally looking up. Survived 57 MPH wind gusts yesterday afternoon and overnight with no damage.

I'm having landlord issues like you did, but I have to move. After 8-years at my current location, I was kicked-out to get someone else in. I was on a month to month lease. Landlord said I had to sign 1-year commitment or move. I didn't think he would be able to find a tenant that fast! Some people only care about money; so, have been moving machinery into a temporary storage location. It will probably only sit there a month or a little longer. It is just a real pain to deal with.

Looks like I'll have gas and electric installed in the beginning of February, and concrete right after that.

Had a kidney stone for the last 6-weeks. It just passed, so I am no-longer in pain everyday.

So, going as good as can be expected I guess.

Greg

[Martin Wasner]

I talked to a lawyer as soon as I was concerned about my renting situation. Might be something to look into. Obviously you want to part ways on good terms, but clearly he doesn't care about that already. Most leases are poorly written and a few hundred bucks paid to the lawyer to look it over and write a letter might be money well spent.

[Martin Wasner]

Killing me Greg. Updates and some pictures please.

[Gregory Stahl]

Last month was extremely difficult. I did hire a lawyer and boy did I need him. I spent much of the time moving out, my machinery is now scattered across three locations in storage. No income now and have a large job we really need to get started on.

I'll go through pics and start posting some soon. After working hard all day, all I really want to do is sleep and watch TV when I get home. The cold takes a lot of energy out of a person.

I'm worried about getting the building done on time too, and we are way over budget. I'll still get the building to come in at a really low price though, I just may not be able to buy a new CNC machine right away as I am using my cash reserves.

If February is a good month, we may have concrete in the beginning of March. Much of that will depend on the trades getting their work done though. 3-weeks out for power and gas right now--the hold up has been me. Electric company recommended a prefabbed slab for the transformer with conduit built in--so will get a move on it now.

Going with 600-Amp service as of now. 800A requires more work--extra conduit in addition to more hardware. 600A seems to be a very common service and I think will be more than adequate for my small operation(though I have been drooling over large moulders and almost bought one recently).

Best,

Greg