New Cabinet Saw Recommendation

[Steve Mathews]

I'm in the market for a new cabinet saw and would appreciate some suggestions on what to buy. My previous saw was a Delta Unisaw that was probably made 15 years ago. First of all, what cabinet saws have non-proprietary motors for cost effective replacement if necessary?

[Ben Rivel]

Not to open the can of worms (though Im sure itll come to that) but many would tell you that if they were buying again today, without question they would get a SawStop. But then many would tell you they wouldnt. Im in the SawStop camp and bought a PCS 3HP 36" as my first table saw. I highly recommend you give them a strong consideration, not just for the safety feature but also for the fit, finish, customer support and over all quality of their products.

[glenn bradley]

As Ben points out Steve, if you do a search here on cabinet saw, new tablesaw, etc. you will see that the recommendations run the gamut. To keep this from becoming a runaway train I would adds to your 'replaceable motor' parameter things like budget, shop foot print, dust collections, brand preferences, format preferences or anything else you can think of to corral the discussion a bit and make it more useful to you.

[Rod Sheridan]

Steve, in my opinion the only new cabinet saw worth buying is the Sawstop, due to the safety feature.

That said, I went away from a cabinet 6 years ago to a small Hammer sliding saw and I would never go back to a cabinet saw again.

As to motor replacement, I've never done that in a home shop in 35 years.................Regards, Rod.

[Ray Newman]

What is your price limit?

No use making recommendations if the saws will be outside of how much you want to or can afford to spend.

Agree with others 'bout a SawStop.

[Martin Wasner]

What's your budget?
Is quality important?

Why new? If you can accommodate it, some of the old Northfield, Tannewitz, and Oliver saws are bullet proof and can be had for a song on the used market and will bury anything made currently as far as quality goes. (Northfield is still producing equipment though. I think a new #4 is ~$15k retail)

There's everything for everyone out there.

If you're planning on sticking flesh into the blade, you're screwed and will have to purchase a Sawstop.

[Steve Mathews]

My absolute budget limit is $4k but would prefer to keep it at around $3k. I mentioned at the top about a non-proprietary motor because I once had a Jet cabinet saw that required a motor replacement and it bothered me that it had to come from Jet. The SawStop safety features are interesting but based on what I've read so far most of the other major cabinet saws have the same features with the exception of the blade stop. I'm extremely cautious around power equipment so the blade stop isn't that appealing to me. Yes, I realize the unexpected accidents can happen but I feel comfortable with keeping myself out of trouble. I think in a high school shop setting the SawStop is a no brainer. Quality of build is probably the feature that I would appreciate most and would spend a little more for it. It isn't that important to me that the dust collection be the best available. The saw just need to have a port to hook up to my large vacuum system and do a reasonable job. The old Northfield, Tannewitz, and Oliver saws seem like a good option but finding one in my rural setting may be a chore.

[Mike Heidrick]

Riving knives are sweet to have. $3k-$4K will buy just about any 10" cabinet saw for sure. Any interest in a sliding table saw if you are spending that much money? There are some smaller ones out there if space is an issue.

If quality of build is important and you are going only cabinet saw i would not count sawstop out even if you don't think the brake is important. There is not a north american 10" style cabinet saw Id trade my ICS for. Although it prob fails your non propietary clause but heck if the motor went out I bet there is a serious chance sawstop would send you another without hesitation and cheaply or free. Their CS is amazing.

[Art Mann]

If you're planning on sticking flesh into the blade, you're screwed and will have to purchase a Sawstop.

I don't know if it was supposed to be but I thought that comment was really funny. This is coming from a person who has used a table saw for over 30 years without injury. Most of that time, the saw didn't even have a blade guard on and never a riving knife. I have experienced a few non destructive kick backs over the years. That is one reason I just bought a new Grizzly with a riving knife.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

For a little more than a SawStop. you can get something like this.
331905

[Jim Andrew]

Right after I ordered my Hammer new, I was looking at the classifieds on this forum, as well as woodweb, and found combo machines for about the same money, and used saws just about exactly like the one I had on order for half. Hobby use machines.

[Steve Schoene]

There are third party motors available for the Unisaw, you don't have to buy a Delta. The Unisaw of 15 years ago is just as good as modern table saws with two exceptions--the riving knife now required, and the SawStop. Shoot,my 1946 Unisaw is equivalent to contemporary cabinet saws, with those exceptions. The other alternative that's significantly different is the European sliding table saw which has its own safety advantages. But I wouldn't trade my old Unisaw for other brands of cabinet saws, except perhaps for Saw Stop, though I'm not willing to pay for that.

[Ben Grefe]

I recently picked up a 36 inch PCS SawStop and absolutely love it. Occasionally I wish I had the 52 inch model, but my garage just doesn't have the space. The ICS base is amazing, I can roll the saw around my shop with one finger.

I watch Frank Howarth's channel on YouTube and immediately get jealous of the extra table space his Powermatic 72 has, but it also runs a 1 inch arbor and weighs ~1000 lbs. I just can't fit that in my space. The extra front table space is very nice though.

If money and space were no object I'd pick up the ICS with 5hp motor - but I don't think you can go wrong with the 3hp PCS. The only other saw I seriously considered was the PM2000, but it was within $100 of the PCS (similarly equipped) and doesn't have the stop feature.

[guy knight]

go to most woodworking tool retailers and ask what they sell the most of it runs mostly sawstops now

[Rob Lee CT]

Former Unisaw owner, now Sawstopper... love the dust collection design, built in splitter/riving knife and general quality of the tool. Loved my Unisaw too, but it wasn't/isn't as usable as the SS. Agree that you should look at the sliders, though - crosscutting is a big part of cabinet work and sliders add their own serious value to the safety equation.

[ken carroll]

This forum is Sawstop central. I wouldn't buy one, but that's just me.

Why did you get rid of your Unisaw? Perhaps I missed it, but knowing that might help.

Failing that info, I would buy a 1946 Oliver 270 - oh wait, I did...... Proper riving knife, and short "Euro" style fence both of which helps with preventing kickbacks. 5HP, 14" blade and that super spine tingling sound as the direct drive motor and 14" blade spin down - kinda like a UH-1 Huey

I sometimes just stand there starting it up and shutting it down and listening .....ahhhhhhh!!!!! Of course, it doesn't help you make furniture but it sure is cool!

When you own an old cast iron saw you'll laugh when you hear of the "massive trunnions" of a powermatic 66. I also own a 66 and the saw table on the Oliver weighs more than the entire 66. Weight has its benefits on a table saw.

[Rob Lee CT]

This forum is Sawstop central. I wouldn't buy one, but that's just me.
...Why did you get rid of your Unisaw? Perhaps I missed it, but knowing that might help.
I suspect the Sawstop centricity in this forum is reflective of the ratio of amateurs (like me) to professionals? And I suspect that most amateurs who are fortunate enough to be able to afford one, buy a Sawstop instead of a PM66 or a Unisaw.

I've been a serious amateur for years, but I respect that pros have different needs and (generally) superior skills. I bought the Unisaw because it was as good a tool as I could afford 30 years ago, and I got great use out of it; no regrets. It wasn't the be-all/end-all of pro tools but it was pretty damn good for its day.

So why did I buy a Sawstop and give my Unisaw to a friend who was trying to build a houseful of cabinets with a LPS "contractor" saw?



The Unisaw needed a new fence (the aluminum mounting casting on the Excalibur fence cracked and couldn't be repaired) and that was going to be $400 or so;
I wanted a riving knife because the Merlin aftermarket splitter on the Unisaw didn't do the job well enough to use all the time;
I needed better dust collection (my 1988 vintage Unisaw had none) and that was another couple hundred $'s plus some metal work I didn't feel like doing and
I have a good friend who has "shop privileges", and his Parkinsons got bad enough that I was afraid he might lock up in the middle of a cut - with deadly consequences.

I knew about the additional functionality I was going to gain with the new Sawstop; I did not know that the Sawstop's fit and finish would be such a big plus.

[Prashun Patel]

This forum is not saw stop centric. In fact you will find if you read without bias that most sawstop owners are happy with their saws for many reasons beyond the safety feature but are not zealous or superior about their purchase nor do they wish to convert other buyers.

[Art Mann]

Hardly a week goes by that I do not read some woefully ignorant Sawstop zealot insult me by saying it is only a question of time before everyone who uses a non-Sawstop table saw will get hurt. I have been using a table saw for 40 years and haven't been injured yet. The odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. On the other hand, I don't disagree that someone with that much knowledge and experience really does need a Sawstop to keep themselves from being injured.


This forum is not saw stop centric. In fact you will find if you read without bias that most sawstop owners are happy with their saws for many reasons beyond the safety feature but are not zealous or superior about their purchase nor do they wish to convert other buyers.

[Bill Space]

The forum is much wider than the narrow slice that includes table saws.

I have yet to see someone comment on the Sawstop safety feature when the topic is Jointers or thickness planers...

But if the table saw comes up...well, Sawstop owners chime up and who can argue against the potential for reduced injury? It really is there, if one can afford the additional expense.

Fit and finish? Well, I am pretty satisfied with my Grizzly fit and finish, so I would not put my money in that corner.

Personally I do not feel insulted by the enthusiasm of the Sawstop owners...But I do seriously relate to what Art Mann is expressing in his post above. Don't think Sawstop owners are "woefully ignorant zealots" though...:)

[Martin Wasner]

Hardly a week goes by that I do not read some woefully ignorant Sawstop zealot insult me by saying it is only a question of time before everyone who uses a non-Sawstop table saw will get hurt. I have been using a table saw for 40 years and haven't been injured yet. The odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. On the other hand, I don't disagree that someone with that much knowledge and experience really does need a Sawstop to keep themselves from being injured.


This. Times a zillion.

The people who aren't impressed with the sawstop either in quality or intent get shouted down so much, they just stop arguing the point

Without knowing anything else, just how the owner of sawstop conducts business is enough to keep me from ever purchasing one of his products as well. But, to parrot Rob Lee's statement, the professional who uses a tool every single day, and has seen co-workers mauled for their ignorance will have a much higher ability than the occasional user. And if it makes you feel safer, more power to you. It's a tool and brand that has no home in my business. That's fine too.

[Martin Wasner]

But if the table saw comes up...well, Sawstop owners chime up and who can argue against the potential for reduced injury? It really is there, if one can afford the additional expense.



My theory is that it breeds complacency, and negatively impacts how one approaches tool operation. Habits formed there can afford to other processes. You can argue that wearing your seatbelt doesn't change your driving habits, but what if the inverse were the case? What if your vehicle was made more dangerous? How would your driving habits be altered if there was a steal spike sticking out of the steering wheel? Would that change how you use it? You certainly drive differently in adverse conditions.
I used to be a very active sportbike rider. If I was running to the post office wearing a t-shirt and sunglasses I was very careful and didn't screw around. Put a helmet and leathers on, I'm riding wheelies, probably going to too fast, and just having fun. Put me on a track with full leathers and an ambulance nearby, I'd grind whatever grist the mill required.

[David Kumm]

And there are even better saws than the Oliver 270 for much less than 3-4K. Dave

[ken carroll]

And there are even better saws than the Oliver 270 for much less than 3-4K. Dave

Agreed, there are better, (always wanted an Oliver 260 for example) but my Oliver cost me $500. I did restore it, and buy or make a few bits but still my cost was well under $1000.

As an additional comment, if I were truly worried about my ability to keep my fingers away from the blade, a $59 grr-ripper achieves the same ends as a sawstop. :)

[Prashun Patel]

In fact, you will find here that the anti Sawstop owners are louder and more more self righteous than the owners as myself who have one.

I have tried to find the 'hardly a week goes by...ignorant Sawstop zealot' posts and I cannot find them. I find that it is typically the people who want to purchase a Sawstop but don't own one that preach loudest about its safety.

There are plenty of Sawstop owners as myself who respect your experience and choice of saw with no sense of superiority.

At any rate, I do know that at SMC we are zealots about shutting down Sawstop threads when they start to get confrontational.

It's not my intent to be right. It's my intent to dispel a theory that we are in warring tribes.

[Rollie Kelly]

Right now there is a fully restored Whitney for sale on the OWWM site for $2.5k with free shipping.
You will have to look long and hard to find a better saw.

[David Kumm]

Whitney may be the top of the chain. Dave

[jack duren]

Former Unisaw owner, now Sawstopper... love the dust collection design, built in splitter/riving knife and general quality of the tool. Loved my Unisaw too, but it wasn't/isn't as usable as the SS. Agree that you should look at the sliders, though - crosscutting is a big part of cabinet work and sliders add their own serious value to the safety equation.

After the sawstop safety feature what isn't the same between the sawstop and unisaw?

[jack duren]

Right now there is a fully restored Whitney for sale on the OWWM site for $2.5k with free shipping.
You will have to look long and hard to find a better saw.

What's better about it?

[David Kumm]

According to guys who know saw builds pretty well, the concensus seemed to be that the ICS was a better build and the PCS a little less build than the Unisaw. Take it for what it is worth. You need to take both apart to make that call. Dave

[jack duren]

Why would I take a saw apart?

[jack duren]

"I'm in the market for a new cabinet saw and would appreciate some suggestions on what to buy. My previous saw was a Delta Unisaw that was probably made 15 years ago. First of all, what cabinet saws have non-proprietary motors for cost effective replacement if necessary?"

My Unisaw is 16 years old. Is yours broke?

[Bill Adamsen]

My Unisaw (bought new) is 35 years old and runs like a champ. Wanted a left tilt PM at the time but couldn't afford the upcharge ... wish I had! I wouldn't make the motor durability and cost of replacement my deciding factor. In fact, if the motor crapped out I'd junk the saw ... and probably do what you're doing now. Consider options.

Lots of great recommendations provided by fellow SMC members. I do like the cut of a larger bladed (14-16") "old iron" American machine with a large and heavily supported arbor. I appreciate the safety and dust collection of the Sawstop, and the ability of a Euro combination to handle full size sheet goods. Track saws have evolved to where they can perform perhaps 95% of what might be done on a slider ... maybe not as fast but certainly with less space.

So the driver should likely be your expected projects, space and electricity, way you like to work, and budget.

[mreza Salav]

Dave (like almost every other time) is right.

[jack duren]

"So the driver should likely be your expected projects, space and electricity, way you like to work, and budget."

I find this not to be the reason behind most saw purchases for hobbyist. Most seem to be looking for applause...I've made a living with woodworking equipment for 32 years and see mainly "want" and not "need" decisions on these forums...

[David Kumm]

Why would I take a saw apart?

I'm just saying that advice as to build quality isn't worth much unless taken from someone who has actually worked on a machine enough to really know. Kind of like the anecdotal " My dust collector really sucks " without the operator taking any measurements. I know old saws but not the unisaw level ones so I'm relaying what I've been told, not what I know. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

For a little more than a SawStop. you can get something like this. <img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=331905"/>Would second that. Also, the SC2 comes with scoring. Not something you'll find on a cabinet saw.

http://www.scmgroupna.com/en/products/classical-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/sc-2-classic.706

[jack duren]

For a little more than a SawStop. you can get something like this.
331905

Be very careful of this saw. Not good for ripping solids.

[jack duren]

I'm not trying to be an A-hole about the quality of table saws or such, just haven't seen a reason to move from the typical 10" Unisaws or equivalent unless you need larger cuts or something a 10" saw doesn't do. Now I've always wanted a slider but since I'm not a cabinet maker anymore this no longer becomes a "need" but a "want".

[David Kumm]

Jack, I get your point and valid. I'm as much a machine guy as woodworker so I'm only talking about choices for better stuff for less money than buying new in the 3-4K range. Almost any old industrial saw can be had for half that budget, even including a vfd. Doesn't mean anyone needs it, just that if buying used, I go high end as I know that stuff doesn't wear out. Just gets ugly and grimy, needs cleaning and probably another 500 of parts and things to make it like new. The old cheap stuff is what turned me from a WW to someone who also enjoys the machine itself. I have the same deal with cars. Used high end vs new regular because the used still drive like a 100K car but cost about the same as a new Buick. Dave

[Earl McLain]

"So the driver should likely be your expected projects, space and electricity, way you like to work, and budget."

I find this not to be the reason behind most saw purchases for hobbyist. Most seem to be looking for applause...I've made a living with woodworking equipment for 32 years and see mainly "want" and not "need" decisions on these forums...

I may not necessarily agree with every statement Jack makes--but almost every decision i make in my hobby of woodworking is "want" based. Really, other than a few fundamental tools my purchases are so close to 100% want that i could drop the word "almost". That's me, others likely feel differently about themselves. I'll also confess that it sure feels better to scratch a "want itch" than it does to scratch a "need itch"!! Way better!!
earl

[jack duren]

Ok... I'm partial to Unisaws. I admit I'm a Unicratic. When someone mentions an upgrade from a Unisaw i get uptight...332133

[Jim Andrew]

I understand that "want vs need" concept. When I really needed a shop, I could not afford one, and now that I can afford one, I want it. Also agree with Jack about the unisaw. I used to get by with an old craftsman, had a jet lock fence, and the motor was so worn out, I used 71/4" blades, because it did not have enough power to saw with a 10" blade any more. To start it, I would get it set, turn on the switch, and then kick the pulley to get the motor to take off.

[ken carroll]

Ok... I'm partial to Unisaws. I admit I'm a Unicratic. When someone mentions an upgrade from a Unisaw i get uptight...

I have a bullet motored 1952 Unisaw and like it a lot. Still has the old "jetlock" style fence, an upgrade here would probably be nice. I also have a PM66, handy for sheetgoods with the large factory steel outfeed and 52" Biesmeyer fence but it takes up a hell of a lot of room in my somewhat small (20x20) shop. Then I have the Oly 270.

Nearly all of my woodworking decisions are "want" and not "need". Who needs 3 tablesaws, 2 18"bandsaws, a Dewalt 790 RAS a sliding CMS? .....the list goes on.

Like Dave, I'm a machine nut - I like to fix them up, improve them and sometimes just plain LOOK at, and listen to them!

So what? I want them, I can afford them and it makes me happy to buy them. Actually, all three tablesaws combined cost me less than a sawstop.

However, if you want, can afford, and like to own a Sawstop then why the heck not? At the end of the day making oneself happy is what it is all about right?

[Rob Lee CT]

Sawstop has pretty good dust collection (my Unisaw had none, and my shop layout isn't great for an overhead table guard/collector); I like the built-in riving knife (vs an aftermarket splitter that tracked the blade angle but didn't match the blade height); Sawstop access door makes it much easier to get to the inside of the cabinet for cleanout. There are some other little things but those were the main things (along with the safety brake) that made me choose the Sawstop over a new Unisaw.

When I bought my Unisaw in 1988, it was a great prosumer saw and served me well for almost 25 years. I have no argument with people who love theirs, and fortunately - like all the guys who say "I've been using a BrandX saw for YYY years and haven't had an accident yet" - I never got hurt with mine. I wouldn't have given that Unisaw to a good friend if I thought it was excessively dangerous. I've had both the Unisaw and the Sawstop completely apart and I've owned several 50's vintage Rockwell/Delta tools (6" jointer, heavy duty shaper) so I can say from experience that the build quality of the PCS is comparable to the build quality of prosumer gear in its price class. It isn't in the same class as an industrial Oliver or Whitney - or a Mattison or a Powermatic SLR or whatever. I can live with that.

[Chris Parks]

Be very careful of this saw. Not good for ripping solids.

Please explain why not.

[jack duren]

Please explain why not.

We had the saw at Blystone Cabinets in Buckner Missouri. Wasn't designed for hardwoods and we ended up cutting hardwoods on a separate saw. Last I heard it was sitting inside a horse trailer rusting. Now that was an American version with a 5/8 arbor. I actually tried to buy the saw for panel cutting but the used price was too high....

The newer version you are looking at is the same version but one really needs to focus on how it will be used.....

[Chris Parks]

We had the saw at Blystone Cabinets in Buckner Missouri. Wasn't designed for hardwoods and we ended up cutting hardwoods on a separate saw. Last I heard it was sitting inside a horse trailer rusting. Now that was an American version with a 5/8 arbor. I actually tried to buy the saw for panel cutting but the used price was too high....

The newer version you are looking at is the same version but one really needs to focus on how it will be used.....

I don't follow, exactly what was the problem ripping solid wood?

[jack duren]

It was not suggested when purchased. Wasn't designed for that purpose. If it's an 40 hr a week saw one might want to look into a saw to rip and use the minimax for it's intended purpose...

[David Kumm]

A short stroke slider that still has the front of the slider sticking out in front of the fixed table but isn't long enough to use the slider for ripping is harder to get used to. A slider excels in ripping when the table is long enough to rip from the left. A mid stroke is a compromise when ripping. The old short stroke sliders looked just like a fixed saw when the table was locked and ripped just like them.332160 Dave

[David T gray]

Please explain why not.

well first off that saw is 6k + shipping

short stroke sliders don't replace cabinet saws or do anything better then they do, but they have a fancy crosscut fence.

the rip fence on sliders are great for nothing they are a compromise they do deflect and aren't long enough.

the slider sits slightly proud of the cast iron so if u rip u will have a slightly angled cut every time.

on these entry level saws your crosscut fence is going to be out of square anytime u touch it, which is fine if u have 10' stroke and you can leave it on all the time.

one of the reasons i bought a slider was to be able to do things quicker when I get rough lumber, I just joint a face and dust cut the sides and run it through the planner. i dust cut off a parallel fence not the rip i only use the rip fence as stop for crosscutting.

[Chris Parks]

well first off that saw is 6k + shipping

short stroke sliders don't replace cabinet saws or do anything better then they do, but they have a fancy crosscut fence.

the rip fence on sliders are great for nothing they are a compromise they do deflect and aren't long enough.

the slider sits slightly proud of the cast iron so if u rip u will have a slightly angled cut every time.

on these entry level saws your crosscut fence is going to be out of square anytime u touch it, which is fine if u have 10' stroke and you can leave it on all the time.

one of the reasons i bought a slider was to be able to do things quicker when I get rough lumber, I just joint a face and dust cut the sides and run it through the planner. i dust cut off a parallel fence not the rip i only use the rip fence as stop for crosscutting.

Really? I haven't had any of those problems with my K3 Hammer. I rip all the time on the sliding table and use the rip fence as a stop to do so just as you do. I hardly ever use the rip fence except of course for longer lengths but most of my work can be ripped on the sliding table. With the built in stops the cross cut fence can be removed and replaced at any time with no tolerance problems at all. Why use a parallel fence when the F&F method does a quicker and better job in most cases? The rip fence does not need to go forward of the leading edge of the blade and mine certainly does not deflect. What brand of saw are you using?

[Peter Kelly]

Be very careful of this saw. Not good for ripping solids.How's that? I have an SC2 and have never had an issue ripping solid wood with it either using a Fritz & Franz setup, the ripping shoe and clamp or against the fence.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

We had the saw at Blystone Cabinets in Buckner Missouri. Wasn't designed for hardwoods and we ended up cutting hardwoods on a separate saw. Last I heard it was sitting inside a horse trailer rusting. Now that was an American version with a 5/8 arbor. I actually tried to buy the saw for panel cutting but the used price was too high....

The newer version you are looking at is the same version but one really needs to focus on how it will be used.....

Donald Trumpism

[Jim Andrew]

David, what kind of slider do you have? Have not noticed any of the complaints you wrote of on my Hammer. And a 79" stroke is just about long enough to rip any project for me. And the angle? from the sliding table sitting proud of the table? Not noticeable on mine. It does sit up just barely.