220v to 110v

[Daniel Morgan]

Perhaps this question has been asked before, if so point me in the right direction please.

I'm running a dedicated line to the garage. The house wiring has too many outlets on one breaker. My question is if I run heavy 4 wire for a 220 outlet can't I run a 110 outlet off that since I would have a proper neutral and ground?

[Dan Friedrichs]

The problem may be that you can only buy 120V receptacles rated for 20A, max. So you'd be limited to a 20A breaker, which may defeat the value of running "heavy" wire.

The best solution would be to install a small subpanel in the garage.

[Daniel Morgan]

Dan, hadn't thought about that. So if I run 30 amps to a 20 amp receptacle I get snap, crackle and pop?

A small panel may be the way to go.

[Dan Friedrichs]

You likely won't blow anything up, but the receptacle, itself, has a current rating in a given installation (as does the wire). The manufacturer has rated that the various bits of metal and plastic in the receptacle are capable carrying a certain amount of current, and it relies on the breaker to prevent excessive current from melting things. Likewise, the breaker must be sized appropriate to the wire, so I don't think you could, say, tap a 12AWG wire off the back of a 240 receptacle fed by a 60A breaker. You'd need, like, 6AWG all the way to the 120V receptacle (which certainly won't fit).

I guess I'm assuming you're talking about a big (~60A) breaker. If you were thinking of a 20A or 30A 240V circuit, perhaps there is a way to do it safely. I'd have to let someone more expert than me weigh in on that.

A small panel and some breakers are cheap, though, and would give you lots of future flexibility.

[Nathan Callender]

A sub panel is totally the way to go if you are going to the bother of running a thick wire. Do it right once and you won't have any power issues with future equipment down the road.

[Mike Cutler]

Perhaps this question has been asked before, if so point me in the right direction please.

I'm running a dedicated line to the garage. The house wiring has too many outlets on one breaker. My question is if I run heavy 4 wire for a 220 outlet can't I run a 110 outlet off that since I would have a proper neutral and ground?

Daniel

Technically, and electrically, yes you can. There are UL approved breakout adapter boxes that do exactly that. They plug into a 240 VAC receptacle and break out to parallel 120 vac circuits. They're also very easy to make. Technically, your house is wired this way with breakers on individual branch circuits.
In the "old days", "Edison circuits", the precursor to "multi branch wiring" were very common. 240VAC was brought up to the attic and 120VAC was cascaded down through the house. You can still see this wiring in use ,in old New England homes. You can also still find knob and tube in service in Ne England.

From your post there is a statement I don't quite understand.
" The house wiring has too many outlets on one breaker." What does this mean exactly?

Dan Friedrichs is correct that installing a sub panel in the garage would be the more correct option, but each person has different needs.

3/C ,#4, AWG, will handle quite a bit more current than 30 amps.


" So if I run 30 amps to a 20 amp receptacle I get snap, crackle and pop?"
No, not exactly. You would only get the snap, crackle, pop and smoke, if you connect a load capable of drawing more current through the receptacle than it's rated for. You still want to size your circuits, and provide adequate breaker protection, in accordance with NEC codes.

[Daniel Morgan]

The problem with the house wiring is that there re too many "draws" run on one breaker. By the time electricity gets to my garage it goes through enough junctions that I have lower voltage. I'm mostly after a solid voltage that will allow me to run two things at once, and I'd like a 220 outlet for a welder someday.

[Art Mann]

Please don't take this the wrong way but the nature of your questions and comments leads me to believe you need to call in an electrician to do this wiring job. You need more knowledge than you can get on a woodworking forum. What you are proposing is unsafe.

[Lee Schierer]

The problem with the house wiring is that there re too many "draws" run on one breaker. By the time electricity gets to my garage it goes through enough junctions that I have lower voltage. I'm mostly after a solid voltage that will allow me to run two things at once, and I'd like a 220 outlet for a welder someday.

Unless that breaker with "too many draws" is tripping constantly, it will have no effect at all on breakers further down the panel. There are bus bars in your panel that can supply full voltage to all breakers on each side of the 240 volt feed. It might be worth a few dollars to have an electrician come in and give you a quote on what you need. What ever you decide, draw the necessary permits and get your work inspected before using it.

[Daniel Morgan]

Thanks for the concern but I've run panels before.

My my main curiosity was tapping 110 off four wire 220, I can't seem to find a definitive answer. The sub panel removes all concerns.

Since it's a permanent upgrade I will get a permit and do the work and leave it bare and get it inspected so there are no insurance issues.

[Bruce Wrenn]

If the welder is a stick machine, then you will need a 50 amp, 220 rect. for it. This means you will need to run #6 copper to a sub panel, and then break off there. Trench in a conduit instead of direct burial wire.

[David L Morse]

My my main curiosity was tapping 110 off four wire 220, I can't seem to find a definitive answer.

The definitive answer is "yes". When you do that it's called a Multi-Wire Branch Circuit. See article 210.4 of the NEC. Note Dan's comments on the limitations of that approach.

[Daniel Morgan]

The welder so just "thinking out loud." I was thinking a small wire feed but all that is truly secondary.

Mostly I would like to have a 220v outlet should I get a tool that needs it.

I I will probably try to get one of the electricians we use at work to make my connections.

[Dan Rude]

Wood Magazine did a break out of this several years ago. It was a dedicated double pole 20 Amp circuit. They ran a 3 wire off of the box and had a 240v and a 120v off of the circuit. For most shops the 120v will need GFCI due to location and possibly AFCI. If You wanted 30 Amp 240v, you could use a 30 Amp single pole with a 20 Amp single pole. Today's codes though you would have to tie the breakers together due to the shared neutral. I am in the process of updating all my 3 wire circuits to comply with this part of the current code. Planning on how to use AFCI outlets to protect my house over the breakers. You just have to put them in the right spots. Outlets are about 1/2 of the breakers now. Still pulling the permit, gets it done right. I am just a homeowner, who keeps trying to correct things, so they meet current code. Dan

[Daniel Morgan]

Yeah, you are all right. After thinking about it overnight it would be best to have it done for me. I have no problem repairing or replacing almost anything but new should be done professionally.

And the wife so delicately pointed out, this is waaaaaay down the project list. I'm getting by just fine.

Onward and upward.