Carbide Turning Tools - What's the verdict?

[Dennis Peacock]

OK, I've been out of the loop for a long while due to job, loss of my FIL, loss of my dad, selling the MIL's house and moving her here, adding onto my house to build her an apartment to live in, and the list goes on and on from there. I've seen some turners using carbide tipped turning tools. What the overall consensus about them? I do have A2 HSS turning tools but some are getting rather short from all the use and resharpening. What say ye??

[Brice Rogers]

I have mixed opinions.

Many of the carbide tools are scrapers (square, round, diamond, etc.) When they are brand new and with a light touch they cut pretty well. But when they dull they sometimes create tear out. They are a bit hard to sharpen. I've sharpened some but they never seem to be as sharp as when new.

I have a round scraper (carbide) that works well for hollowing a hollow form vessel. I also have a square sraper that I use to quickly rough hollow out a vessel.

So, they do work for some applications, but they are hard to resharpen. I see them as augmenting the other turning tools rather than replacing them entirely.

[David Bassett]

I don't think there is a consensus. Certainly there is a lot of heated discussions you can find. To me it seems most of the heat comes from claims about carbide doing everything and making other tools unnecessary. Most of the carbide tools are scrapers and, it seems to me, replace scrapers of similar profiles well. A few of the carbide tools can do shear cuts, but they don't have the same shapes as skews and gouges and, it seems to me, require slightly different technique. One instructor I read said he started all beginners with the scraper style carbide tools because of their low entry cost. (No sharpening, no finding & riding the bevel, etc.) Some found that was enough to accomplish their goals, but he found most went on to learn and master more traditional tools. IIRC- Chris Schwarz is a fan of the Easy Wood Tools precisely because of their low barrier to entry. He admits he isn't a turner and appreciates being able to quickly turn a basic tool handle or table leg without having to spend the time mastering and maintaining a higher skill set.

[Charles Bjorgen]

I own three of Mike Hunter's carbide tools and am fortunate to have had direct instruction from him on using the tools. A misconception is that these are merely scrapers. Having spent a bit of time watching videos by John Lucas on using the Hunter tools I found that it is indeed possible to find and ride a bevel for achieving very nice finishing cuts. The tools I have use the round cutters. I don't know if riding the bevel is possible with the angular cutters on some of the other carbide brands. I don't intend to give up my regular gouges though.

[Thom Sturgill]

The Hunter style cutter is a cup with a sharp edge and cuts well but is very hard to sharpen. Easy Wood Tools (and others) use a flat top carbide scraper. The hunter works similar to a ring or hook tool for hollowing, especially end grain hollowing with the exception that it does not handle chip ejection the same.

In my opinion, the real revolution in turning tools is the Powdered metal/crucible metal steels such as Doug Thompson (V11), or Dave Schwartz of D-Way(M42) are using. Still classic milled gouge shapes with the addition of a milled rather than forged Spindle Roughing Gouge (better tang), these tools get sharper and stay sharper longer. IMHO, they do require either a CBN wheel or diamond hone to properly sharpen though.

[John Keeton]

Thom, I believe Doug's steel is 10V (10% vanadium) and it is Dave Schweitzer of D-Way. I know from your previous posts, that you realize both of these points, but I am chalking it up to not having coffee yet!:D
Just wanted to make sure uninformed viewers didn't get confused.

[carl mesaros]

I have mixed opinions.

Many of the carbide tools are scrapers (square, round, diamond, etc.) When they are brand new and with a light touch they cut pretty well. But when they dull they sometimes create tear out. They are a bit hard to sharpen. I've sharpened some but they never seem to be as sharp as when new.

I have a round scraper (carbide) that works well for hollowing a hollow form vessel. I also have a square sraper that I use to quickly rough hollow out a vessel.

So, they do work for some applications, but they are hard to resharpen. I see them as augmenting the other turning tools rather than replacing them entirely.

Well said. I agree with each point you have made.
I have two Easy Wood tools, the medium sized round scraper and the v shaped detailer. Outstanding when new but dulled rather quickly and sharpening doesn't quite return the original edge. My biggest problem with them is the cost of new tips $18 or so, quite pricy.

[Stan Calow]

I am a talentless hobbyist with a whole rack of turning tools. I am finding I do 80% of the work with my carbide tools, and have more turning time with less sharpening. Might be different story if I was doing it seriously or making more than basic things.

[George Conklin]

Hi Dennis,
Good to see you post again. Sorry to hear about some of life's painful issues you have been dealing with.
My opinion on carbide tools is that they make turning just so darned easy. I was resistant to try them at first, but finally gave in and find them useful.

I use my "traditional" turning tools probably 70 + % of the time, but there is that time when I do reach for the carbide tool and I'm glad I have it. When I do any type of hollowing, they are my go to tool. I'd probably use them more if I wasn't concerned about dulling and having to buy expensive replacement blades.

[John Grace]

I have many tools both of traditional gouges and carbide tools and they all serve a purpose for me. While all of the above comments are valid I would add the following. A tool's value is, to some extent, relative to the need and the hand wielding it. Meaning...carbide certainly can have a shorter learning curve, and as such, you can produce finished pieces relatively fast and in some cases high quality when sharp and done 'just so'. Traditional gouges have a somewhat steeper learning curve relative to use as well as sharpening, but in the end, are more versatile in my opinion. It's February in 2016...if you plan on making one or two bowls this entire year then perhaps carbide is a better path for you. If you plan on turning more and more, then perhaps it's worth spending the time to learn traditional gouges and sharpening and going that route.

[Reed Gray]

Well, there is nothing that they can do that a standard scraper can't do, well, standard scrapers are easier to sharpen.

robo hippy

[Ray Bell]

Poor excuse, but I discovered early on that I have neither the skills or patience to use the traditional tools. I was never good at technique or sharpening. After buying my first EWT I quickly decided carbide was the way to go, and use these exclusively. They do have their down sides, one being the cutters are expensive, and secondly the pieces seem to require a lot more sanding after turning, but again this may be just me. Other folks may be able to get quality finishing cuts with them. I have a friend that has been turning considerably less time than I and has taken the time to learn how to use the traditional tools. His finishing cuts are always smoother than mine.

[John K Jordan]

In my opinion, the real revolution in turning tools is the Powdered metal/crucible metal steels such as Doug Thompson... IMHO, they do require either a CBN wheel or diamond hone to properly sharpen though.

Dennis, what kinds of things do you like to do?

I agree the V10 Thompson tools are amazing. I also have most of what Mike Hunter sells. I like both of them, often for different purposes but often either will work. I really like small Hunter hollowing tools for hollowing small things (duh) and the larger Hercules tools for inside since they are so sturdy and cut cleanly. For bowls and face things I often use the Hunter tools for much of the work but I personally have better success with the V10 bowl gouge with a steep bevel for finish cuts inside. For spindle work I prefer the Thompson spindle gouges. You can get amazingly clean cuts with the Hunter in the bevel-rubbing mode. If I had just one I'd get the Hercules, depending on what kinds of things you liked to turn.

BTW, I like the Hunter tools over the several other types of carbide I've tried.

As for the sharpening, I do use CBN wheels now but for years I sharpened the Thompson tools easily on either a standard grinding wheel or mostly, the Tormek with water wheel.

JKJ

[Thom Sturgill]

Thom, I believe Doug's steel is 10V (10% vanadium) and it is Dave Schweitzer of D-Way. I know from your previous posts, that you realize both of these points, but I am chalking it up to not having coffee yet!:D
Just wanted to make sure uninformed viewers didn't get confused.

No I think its more the fact that I'm down with a bad cold.

[Dennis Peacock]

George Conklin - Thank You for welcoming me back among the living. :)
I have had a very extended break from woodworking in general to include woodturning. I'm fighting my way back to doing both once again.

John Jordan - I'm a bowl turner who also likes to turn platters as well as tops for kids. :)

The hardest lesson I've had to learn in the past 3 years is how to stand with a child who has just attempted suicide. I "never" dreamed that I would ever have a child that would even come close to considering such a thing as suicide. I've also had to learn how to love them through some of the ugliest circumstances faced in their life. For sure not what I dreamed as a young married man of how it would be with my own kids.

On the flip side, my daughter and son-in-law just announced to us today that the LOML and I will be grandparents for the very first time.......it's going to be a "girl"!!! Needless to say that we are EXCITED!!!!!

For some odd reason, it feels really good to be back among my woodtuning friends once again.

Oh, I'm a traditional woodturner who has all kinds of HSS M2 turning tools and can sharpen them just fine. I was just wondering about the carbide turning tools since I've never seen them, held them, nor used them.

Thanks for all the info so far. I appreciate it greatly.

[John K Jordan]

John Jordan - I'm a bowl turner who also likes to turn platters as well as tops for kids. :)

Hey, I have a top-turnin' obsession myself. Kids from Mexico to Hawaii to Italy to Greece have some of my tops. I always carry a pocket full when traveling and give bags of them to missionaries, kids at my church, visitors to the farm, etc. (Best made while they watch!) And other people who LOVE them: doctors, nurses, counselors, and social workers who often deal with sick, scared and troubled kids. (BTW, I never use carbide tools for these.)

331618

A granddaughter - that IS exciting! Our grandsons frequent the farm and the 5-year-old is an old hand in the shop now. I suspect one very lucky little girl in your family will be making her own tops before long!

I do make good use of the Hunter carbide tools on platters and bowls.

JKJ

[Clay Fails]

I'm fairly new to turning, and not an expert by any means. My reaction from using Easy Wood's carbide tipped tools as well as Thompson's gouges is that the carbides are nice for quick hogging off and getting close to the desired profile, but they can't match the finish of the powerded metal gouges sharpened on a tormek. No comparison. YMMV.

[Len Mullin]

I do hope that most of you people know that, carbide cutters are not meant to be resharpened. Once they get dull you're supposed to discard them, not try to resharpen them. I know some people try to resharpen them, and when they don't get the edge they want they blame it on the cutter. That's the wrong thing to do, you should swap out the dull cutter. Check with the manufacturers, they will let you know what to do with a dull cutter.
Len

[Bill Blasic]

John, A11 or 10V same steel.

[John Keeton]

Bill, I realize that, but Thom's post said V11 - not A11. I just didn't want anyone confused. Good point to make, though.

[John Grace]

I think/believe most people know that carbide cutters are not intended to be re-sharpened...I also believe the average person is just trying to prolong the life of a cutter or simply make it usable for a short time longer before having to shell out for a new one.
I do hope that most of you people know that, carbide cutters are not meant to be resharpened. Once they get dull you're supposed to discard them, not try to resharpen them. I know some people try to resharpen them, and when they don't get the edge they want they blame it on the cutter. That's the wrong thing to do, you should swap out the dull cutter. Check with the manufacturers, they will let you know what to do with a dull cutter.
Len

[Mark Greenbaum]

Some the flat conical disks can be re-sharpened, but probably only on a diamond hone, and not as sharp as factory new. I've done it a couple of times, and it's just a scraper anyways. So, what's the harm?

[Rob Price]

I have a few EWT and use them occasionally but prefer the traditional tools for leaving a much smoother cut. When scraping bowls I do seem to get more grabs and catches with a traditional scraper than my carbide tool, but that tells me I need more work on my scraper skills. The tear out from the carbide is horrible on end grain.

The one clear advantage of the carbide is when I'm turning something other than wood- antler pens and acrylic pens are much easier for me with the round carbide tool.

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm a want-to-be turner and wanted to try carbide but didn't want to spend what they wanted for ready made tools. So I did some searching and found many make their own carbide tools. I bought some inserts from A-Z Carbide, some square stock/drill bits/taps from McMaster, and made my own handles. This was a fun project and gave me some practice time on spindle turning.

After using them at first I was so excited they really removed wood fast but as the experts cautioned the scraping action doesn't leave the best finish and I always found I needed to smooth my shapes out with conventional tools. I have since found I need improve my sharpening skills - if I have a nicely sharpened conventional tool I can remove material just as fast as with carbide.

Mike

[Reed Gray]

Bill, trying to remember here about the A 11 steel. I do remember Serious lathe guy Scott, was selling some scrapers and gouges that were A 11 or A some thing metal. It was a lot softer than M2 HSS, and didn't hold an edge well at all. I gave the ones I had away.

robo hippy

[Doug McKnight]

This thread hes got me curious. I sharpen my non-carbide tools myself on a wolverine jig, so that generally works ok for me.

I am curious, though, about whether the Hunter style of carbide tool might be good to try as an alternative for hollowing. I'm enjoying making bowls and boxes, mostly small to medium sized.

Which Hunter tool should I get first if I want to try them out? It's not obvious to me from the web site.
cheers
Doug

[John K Jordan]

Doug, for small things I like these Hunter tools:

331750

They have tapered shafts so they are thicker to reduce vibration. The one on the bottom is the Osprey. If getting just one tool to start I might get one with a straight shaft.

Where are you located? There might be someone nearby who would let you try the tools.

And don't hesitate to call Mike Hunter and discuss this. He is very helpful! 612-718-7926

JKJ

[Richard Dooling]

I do hope that most of you people know that, carbide cutters are not meant to be resharpened. Once they get dull you're supposed to discard them, not try to resharpen them. I know some people try to resharpen them, and when they don't get the edge they want they blame it on the cutter. That's the wrong thing to do, you should swap out the dull cutter. Check with the manufacturers, they will let you know what to do with a dull cutter.
Len


Are you suggesting there is a safety issues here? That's the only reason I can think of to not sharpen carbide cutters. Having said that, I would never advocate sharpening the bevels or touching the mounting faces. But a couple of diamond plates can quickly touch up the FLAT top surface of a cutter.

What is , "the wrong thing to do," sharpening the cutters or expecting something as good as a factory grind?

That the cutters are not intended for resharpening does not mean that they should not or cannot be resharpened. Admittedly they are not as sharp as new but they are very usable.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t begrudge the manufacturers their sales but I personally don’t feel like spending $18 every time I need a usable cutter. Beyond the expense it’s wasteful. I only use one carbide tool at present and I have three cutters. There is usually at least one ready to go when I need it. This is easy to do.

When I want a cleaner cut I use HSS.

[John K Jordan]

But a couple of diamond plates can quickly touch up the FLAT top surface of a cutter.

Perhaps there is some basic misunderstanding here. Apples and oranges. Just to be clear, some carbide cutters, such as what Mike Hunter uses on his tools, don't have flat tops.

The carbide tools with flat tops I tried some years ago were not capable of producing the kind of clean surface possible with the Hunter tools. The Hunter cutters have razor sharp, beveled cutting edges. The cost is in fact high, but the cutters are round and can be rotated many times to expose new, sharp edges. I've been using the same cutter on one tool for years now.

JKJ

[Doug McKnight]

John, Thanks for the reply.
Is the Osprey shown the #1? And the other tools the "Carbide Woodturning #1 taper" set?

I see the difference in the angle of the cutter in the Osprey, compared with the other straight tool. How would you describe the difference in their performance or use?
Thx.
Doug

[Richard Dooling]

Perhaps there is some basic misunderstanding here. Apples and oranges. Just to be clear, some carbide cutters, such as what Mike Hunter uses on his tools, don't have flat tops.

The carbide tools with flat tops I tried some years ago were not capable of producing the kind of clean surface possible with the Hunter tools. The Hunter cutters have razor sharp, beveled cutting edges. The cost is in fact high, but the cutters are round and can be rotated many times to expose new, sharp edges. I've been using the same cutter on one tool for years now.

JKJ


Absolutely. There was a blanket statement that, "carbide cutters are not meant to be resharpened" and I've heard this before. Without mentioning any particular manufacturer I wanted to say that some carbide cutters can be sharpened.

You point out an important point in this discussion. That is that "carbide turning tool" is a very broad description. You mention the Hunter tools which I have not used. It's plain to see though that these are a far cry from the scraper type configuration of many other carbide tools. So perhaps the OP can get more specific feedback on what he can expect from different carbide configurations.

BTW I think the carbide scrapers are a great way to start as they eliminate the need to learn sharpening and get you going fast.

But I personally want to be able to sharpen my tools when needed so I use HSS. In addition to some larger outfits I have Doug Thompson, Dave Schweitzer and Trent Bosch tools. To each his own

[Michael Mills]

I do use a carbide occasionally for roughing but use conventional tools mostly.
My biggest drawback to buying a full carbide tool is the cost.
The cost of the cutter is <$20, OK I can live with that. At $130 for an easy wood tool that means the handle is $110? Yikes.
Their handle is 15" and "brightly colored". You can buy a pre-turned 14" beech handle with ferrule from Packards for $8.95; add on the cost of the shaft ($6?) and a tap and bit of the matched size ($7). There is some minor machining to fit the cutter.
My flat cutters were only $3 each ordering a pack of ten. I'm not sure the more expensive ones last 6X longer but they may.
Guess I'm just too frugal to pay for the bright colors.
http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-hand-beetoo

[Peter Blair]

Without stealing this thread I wonder if anyone had tried the 'new to me' Rolly Monro hollowing tool which uses a guard and apparently a cupped carbide? I have one of his older models and love it for end grain hollowing but am tempted by the new design. Has anyone here tried both types?

[John K Jordan]

Without stealing this thread I wonder if anyone had tried the 'new to me' Rolly Monro hollowing tool which uses a guard and apparently a cupped carbide? I have one of his older models and love it for end grain hollowing but am tempted by the new design. Has anyone here tried both types?

One of the demonstrators at the TAW Symposium a few weeks ago had the new one. He liked it and said it was an improvement over the older design. Sorry, I can't find it in my notes, can't remember if it was Rudy Lopez or Glenn Lucas.

JKJ

[Bruce Lewane]

I turn laminated bowls out exotic woods. Between the very hard kiln dried wood and CA joints I find Carbide tools to be excellent. While the initial cost is high, the cost of new cutters has dropped a bunch. (Captain Eddie and Arizona Carbides) I use EWT's for roughing and Hunter's for finish cuts. There is still a learning curve. I had to learn to cut like I was shaving a babies butt to get a clean surface. I shave my face with more pressure than I do final cuts on wood.

[David Delo]

I have the full size EWT rougher and finisher. Bought them when I got started turning because at the time I didn't have good sharpening skills and these tools allowed me to complete projects. Fast forward to present day.......have learned how to correctly sharpen lathe tools and use traditional tools currently.

Not always but often enough I'll use the EWT to de-bark a log if I'm making a tall vase. No sense dulling a good SRG. Another use is when I need a smaller diameter tenon than my HTC 125 chucks won't grab is making a nice straight tenon for my PSI tommy bar style chuck that I only have straight jaws for.

Have the Hunter #1 for hollowing and that little sucker can remove some material FAST. Love it. Also have the #4 cutter on a sphere jig and when rotated in shear scrap mode leaves an outstanding finish. If I did little boxes more often I'd probably invest in a few of Mike's bars.

[glenn bradley]

I am a talentless hobbyist with a whole rack of turning tools. I am finding I do 80% of the work with my carbide tools, and have more turning time with less sharpening. Might be different story if I was doing it seriously or making more than basic things.

I will add to this. I am NOT a turner but, do sometimes need to turn something. For a knuckle-dragging, slack-jawed troglodyte I can do pretty much what I need to do, much quicker, with the carbide tools as I found almost no learning curve for someone who is familiar with the characteristics of wood and he cutting thereof. Someone who wants to turn as a craft would need a broader compliment of tools just as I need a wide array of tools for my work. For those of us who turn only when they have to, I was able accomplish my goal with minimal skill using a round, square and diamond carbide tool plus a cutoff tool.

[Richard Dooling]

So I really had not planned on posting again to this thread but then I found this video from Ken Rizza at WoodTurners Wonders.

I normally do this with finger pressure on a diamond plate on a bench but then again -

Power sharpening a flat carbide bit
http://woodturnerswonders.com/blogs/news/39925188-how-to-sharpen-a-carbide-wood-lathe-tool-bit-video

[Bruce Lewane]

Pretty slick. I've been using a jig I found in a youtube video but I'll have to give this a try.

[John K Jordan]

John, Thanks for the reply.
Is the Osprey shown the #1? And the other tools the "Carbide Woodturning #1 taper" set?

I see the difference in the angle of the cutter in the Osprey, compared with the other straight tool. How would you describe the difference in their performance or use?

The angles make the tools a little easier to use especially when used in the "bevel-rubbing" mode like you would use a bowl gouge, but they all can (and need) to be held at somewhat of an angle unless you are holding one straight for scraping. I forgot - did you see the videos John Lucas has done on these? He has some good info. I like the control I get from the Osprey. (I don't remember the #) I also really like the Hercules which are angled too. The big one feels massive, especially in a heavy handle.

I see he as some sets now but I bought all those individually. If possible, try some out before you buy - anyone in your club have some you could try?

I tried calling Mike just now to see what he would recommend but he didn't answer; he might be at a show.

JKJ

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Without stealing this thread I wonder if anyone had tried the 'new to me' Rolly Monro hollowing tool which uses a guard and apparently a cupped carbide? I have one of his older models and love it for end grain hollowing but am tempted by the new design. Has anyone here tried both types?

Is the "old" Munro a flat cutter? I not too recently bought a cutter system, and it has the Hunter style cupped disk, if that is the new thing. It's a nice tool, but it does clog, and very hard to set up to get clean cuts. By that I mean the cutter stays clean and un clogged. I found that changing the wood you're cutting can make it clog or not clog. Perhaps I need to take just the smallest of shavings, but at times, I want to hog off as much as I can and this cutter can do it. But it does clog when hogging off wood. Well, you do have to pull the cutter out to clear shavings, may as well clean off the clogged cutter. Couldn't you just buy a new cutter head if you have the old system? Oh, end grain rarely clogs regardless of the setup, it's the long grain that clogs. It takes off wood fast. Don't know if you do urn hollowing, but the head is a bit large, and hard to get into a pet urn with a small opening.