New Nos. 3 and 4.5 ebony infills

[Juan Hovey]

I'm in the end game with these two ebony infills, one of which seeks to address - the No. 4.5 in the foreground - the risk that the thin neck on my planes might break.


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To this point in my plane making I've chosen to push the design envelope no matter the risk, in large part out of curiosity to see how far I could get without disaster. The good news is that you learn a heck of a lot about wood in doing so. The bad news is -- well, not disaster, exactly, but rather two lessons in the school of hard knocks: An early plane came apart because I left it atop the washing machine one morning only to find it on the floor after my sweet wife turned the machine on. The tote on another split because, in driving a drill bit through it, I neglected to back the bit out to remove waste, causing it to clog.

Which is to say that none of my clients has sent a plane back because it came apart in use.

Which is not to say it couldn't happen - or won't.

Lo, a solution, maybe, in the No. 4.5 - a cross-grain spline running north and south from a point an inch or so down from the top of the crown all the way down to and around the big arc and forward to the bed for the iron. It's about 1/4 inch wide and about as deep, and as you may guess, it took some doing to shape it and get it into the plane; among other things, since the grain on the tote runs east and west, more or less, I had to make the spline such that end grain ended up on the surface.

In essence, the result ought to add strength to the structure for the same reason that plywood is strong, don't you think? But would the better idea be to insert the spline from inside the hand hole? This might be easier to do, I suspect. It might also reinforce pretty much the entire upper half of the tote.

Anyway, I invite input from any and all.

[lowell holmes]

We need to see some shavings. :)

If they perform as well as they look, you have winners.

[Stanley Thigpen]

Beautiful planes!!

[Matt Evans]

Keep in mind I don't make infills, and my tools aren't always the prettiest. Take my opinion with the largest bucket of salt you can find.

Just a thought. . .If you are stuck on the birds wing aesthetic, and want to increase strength, instead of the spline, change the design slightly.

One idea would be to thicken the "wing", but twist it in a helical fashion slightly, giving the illusion of not only the wing, but flight as well. This allows a strength benefit, the ability to make it look even more delicate while adding strength, and keeps with both tradition and no need for the spline. (which I could see you having issues with)

For what its worth, I do think the sneck is a bit thick. No suggestions, just an opinion.

[Ron Bontz]

Sorry for my ignorance. What is a sneck? Also, I like the knurling on the cap screws with the band/ line in them, but not so much on the sharp corners. I would be prone to round the cap screws over a bit. ( Keep in mind I know absolutely nothing about building infills :) ) What type of stainless do you use? I assume this is 360 brass as well. Do you ever use bronze? See, I told you I know nothing about infills. :)

[Juan Hovey]

Matt and Ron - Many thanks for the input. The client who commissioned the No. 4.5 wanted the up-swept crown or horn. It's not meant to resemble a bird's wingspan, incidentally, but rather a bird's head and bill. I was more enamored of this particular element of the design when I made the first several planes incorporating it, as I thought it playful. These days I shape the crown or horn this way only when a client asks.

Also, I agree that the sneck - the gizmo at the top of the iron, tapped by a small hammer to adjust the depth of cut - could be narrower. It does need to extend across the iron, however, since the iron may need adjusting side to side as well.

The sides of the planes are 1/4-inch 1018 mild steel, not stainless. The bases are O-1 tool steel. The lever caps are 360 brass; I start with bar stock and shape them mostly by hand. I have used cast bronze lever caps on occasion but prefer brass.

[Juan Hovey]

We need to see some shavings. :)

If they perform as well as they look, you have winners.


Lowell - Shavings coming up as soon as I finish tuning the planes.

[Jim Belair]

I like the overall design, and don't dislike the up swept horn. And I have no problem with one pushing the envelope. Make things as thin as you like- if they break, fix them. But the front of the tote just seems too thin to my eye to fit in with the overall look.

[Andrew Hughes]

I thought they are very good looking planes.
Very nice work Juan.
I too can hear Georges words.He has some iron in his words for all woodworker to hear.
To me he was saying keep the function before form,do not break the law of Craftsman ship.
A worn out tool has a real natural beauty that cannot be matched by man.;)

[Jim Koepke]

I thought they are very good looking planes.
Very nice work Juan.
I too can hear Georges words.He has some iron in his words for all woodworker to hear.
To me he was saying keep the function before form,do not break the law of Craftsman ship.
A worn out tool has a real natural beauty that cannot be matched by man.;)

I too think they are very good looking planes.

They look more like they were made with consideration toward being on display and not as if they were made to be put to use, especially a full days vigorous use.

I do not want to worry about whether or not my plane is going to make it through the day in the process of my work.

One has to realize "traditional" design wan't thought up by a committee one pleasant afternoon. Many shapes and forms were tried. Some worked, some didn't. Some worked so well the other experiments were abandoned and the makers of tools stayed with what worked, thus becoming the "tradition."

We can make beautiful tools around the traditional lines. We can add our own variances to tradition. When all is said and done, does the function remain?
Does the plane, saw or chisel handle transfer the force as it should?
Does it give the user confidence of lasting function for as long as they will be using the tool?

Yes Andrew I agree some of my most prized tools have the natural beauty of being used and being cared for over more than a century. Some of their ugliest scars are from people trying to make them look pretty.

jtk

[george wilson]

I don't believe I ever remarked about the craftsmanship of the planes in question. My remarks were about the design issues.

I have seen so many very well made things like knives made by hand,at gun shows. Some of them showed first rate craftsmanship,great grinding skills,and other good work. But,their designs are often bizarre to the point of ridiculous. But,knife freaks can be a funny bunch anyway. I don't see how any of them make a living! I have made several,over a period spanning from about 1954 to about 6 years ago,when I made Jon's retirement gift of a nice pocket knife(Thank Heavens he is too afraid to CARRY it!! He has lost at least 3 commercial ones I gave him!!) He's hard on knives! Search for it by trying "A pocket knife I made". That does find it.

I watched a few episodes of "Forged In Fire",waiting for something GOOD to happen. When they showed the personal "shops" of some of those guys,it was an overgrown patch of weeds in a corner of their back yards(That'd be MOM'S backyard,probably!) Many had home made furnaces made out of insulated trailer bottle propane tanks. And,there's nothing wrong with THAT,really. I have been there. But,it showed hat these guys aren't making 2 coins to rub together.

WHAT I AM SAYING HERE IS DEVELOPING CRAFTSMANSHIP IS THE EASY PART. Design taste is entirely another matter. Of the approx. 22 people I trained in Williamsburg,I NEVER could teach even ONE of them to draw. Some,with MASTER'S degrees,drew at a 4th. Grade level,really. some became good,even excellent craftsmen AS LONG AS THEY WERE COPYING SOMETHING. Fortunately for some of them,copying is what you are required to do the most of in a museum. That was the part of it I never personally enjoyed,unless,like the surveyor's compass,it was a challenge to make,copy or not.

So,I really ought to just stop trying to help people learn design. Either it is in your brain or it is not.

[Frederick Skelly]

PLEASE keep teaching us George. All of it, including design - is greatly appreciated. How many chances will any of us get to learn from someone like you - one who makes gifts that Presidents give to Queens?

We are fortunate to have you participate in this forum, sharing your knowledge.

Fred

[Ron Bontz]

Matt and Ron - Many thanks for the input. The client who commissioned the No. 4.5 wanted the up-swept crown or horn. It's not meant to resemble a bird's wingspan, incidentally, but rather a bird's head and bill. I was more enamored of this particular element of the design when I made the first several planes incorporating it, as I thought it playful. These days I shape the crown or horn this way only when a client asks.

Also, I agree that the sneck - the gizmo at the top of the iron, tapped by a small hammer to adjust the depth of cut - could be narrower. It does need to extend across the iron, however, since the iron may need adjusting side to side as well.

The sides of the planes are 1/4-inch 1018 mild steel, not stainless. The bases are O-1 tool steel. The lever caps are 360 brass; I start with bar stock and shape them mostly by hand. I have used cast bronze lever caps on occasion but prefer brass.


Thank you. I would never have guessed that to be 1018 mild steel. Or 01 for that matter. Interesting.

[Jebediah Eckert]

George, I think EVERYONE here appreciates your input when asked for. Even if it's not what some people want/expected to hear and it takes time to absorb maybe? Not speaking for anyone but I sure have been guilty of typing and sending maybe earlier then I should? Please keep commenting on stuff. What an amazing body of work you bring to the table.

Juan, I think the planes look incredible and I am so envious of all the various skills they take to make.

[Curt Putnam]

Some of us cannot learn design (me) but still benefit from trying to learn. Some have a lot invested in their own designs and takes a while for advice to get past the barriers. I see this a lot in photography: good shots can often be great shots with a few tweaks but some folks can't hear because they are too heavily invested in their current position.

Them as can, does
Them as can't, teach
Them as can't teach, administrate.

[Chris Hachet]

George, I think EVERYONE here appreciates your input when asked for. Even if it's not what some people want/expected to hear and it takes time to absorb maybe? Not speaking for anyone but I sure have been guilty of typing and sending maybe earlier then I should? Please keep commenting on stuff. What an amazing body of work you bring to the table.

Juan, I think the planes look incredible and I am so envious of all the various skills they take to make.

I want to echo this sentiment-George ALWAYS makes me think, which I appreciate.

[Brian Holcombe]

Juan,

I worked for an automotive machinist when I was younger, he was basically a one man shop and took on interesting work, he had some 40 years of experience in the business and anyone with something impossible would bring it to him to work on, he would repair it proceeding intuitively as if it were barely a challenge. I was young and expected advice handed to me, instead I received quite the opposite, doing the lowest work for quite some time before I was shown anything, it took some time but if I struggled and researched on my own he would go the extra mile and truly help out. Ultimately I left there with quite a bit of real experience, which on a conventional basis would have actually much much taken longer to earn. Most importantly I learned how to persevere to achieve results. Now when I return to the shop I am treated like a family member.

Last time I returned for machine work, we had a coffee, I meant to 'drop off' the piece and instead he handed me a pair of eye glasses and told me to chuck it into the machine as I did not need his help to make it.

Chesterfield and Johnson became very close friends shortly after their brief falling out, so maybe it is worthwhile to put ego aside and patch things up.

[Prashun Patel]

It'd be a shame to have to shut this thread down because of debates about each other's personality.

Both Juan and George are skilled and generous with their advice and inspiration.

Let's keep the debate to the design. When the battles here cross the line into the personal, nobody concedes and nobody wins, and the experts retreat into the ether.

The only losers are we readers who learn so much from both of you.

Sorry if this reads, as patronizing. It's not my intention.

Personal criticisms are best handled (here) privately.

[george wilson]

Prashun,as I mentioned in my reply to Juan,I was not in an angry mood at all. I just tried to tell my side of the story. I have been friendly with Juan for some time,and was surprised by his sudden recoil at what I thought were helpful,constructive ideas. I don't have much more to say as of now.

[Bruce Haugen]

I watched a few episodes of "Forged In Fire",waiting for something GOOD to happen. When they showed the personal "shops" of some of those guys,it was an overgrown patch of weeds in a corner of their back yards(That'd be MOM'S backyard,probably!) Many had home made furnaces made out of insulated trailer bottle propane tanks. And,there's nothing wrong with THAT,really. I have been there.

A bit OT, but I follow a couple knife making forums, and the response was the same as yours, George. The real knife makers felt the show's producers trivialized real craftsmanship and design considerations and went solely for splash.

[Frank Drew]

Juan,

I agree with George's design critiques but I admit that I prefer a restrained, or at least traditional, aesthetic in tool design that considers function, feel and durability first. I'd agree, though, that having to include a customers ideas can complicate matters a bit.

Maybe some of this should have been dealt with through private messages; no one like to be rebuked publicly.

[george wilson]

It was not a rebuke,Frank. It was not done in a hateful or harassing manner. It was free instruction,which Juan wanted in the past. Or seemed to.

If it is posted publicly,everyone can benefit(who cares to listed to experience). Posted in private,no one but the recipient benefits.

As for customers' requests,I let them make many decisions,but not those decisions that I know will hurt my design aesthetic. I have had customers with NO TASTE at all ask for the most ridiculous things applied to their guitars. I will not do it on something that bears my name and reputation. I don't know if Juan has customer requests like this or not. I just know what I will not do. I never have had a customer back out of an order either,because I refused to do something very gaudy or tasteless. They primarily want the tone they know I can make.