Kiyotada Chisel Pics 1/5 Oire & Mukomachi Chisel Sets

[Stanley Covington]

In response to my earlier post, some of the guys asked to see pics of some of my Kiyotada chisels. It will take 5 posts within this thread to show the some of them.

First, are my set of oire and mukomachi (mortice) chisels.

The Oire set (butt chisels) were custom made for me, and are an old fashioned style with few bevels. I have used these a lot.

The mukomachi set (mortice chisels) I built up over time. Excellent tools I have used a great deal. They don't chip easily, and stay sharp a long time, so the blades are not much shorter than when I bought them.

Stan
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[Stanley Covington]

Tataki chisels next. These are rather large, and are intended for timber work. I used these a lot once, but not much now. I have three or four more, but these were immediately at hand.

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[Stanley Covington]

Next are the shinogi chisels. I am very fond of these.

The last chisel to the right is really not a shinogi, but a paring chisel. It is a wonder, very thin and very precisely made. Very few blacksmiths can do work this slender and this precise. Another of those chisels that is seldom used, but indispensable.

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[Stanley Covington]

Next are the kote chisels. Sometime before WWII, Mr. Ichiro Tsuchida of Sangenjaya in Tokyo lent Shimamura san (Kiyotada) an original kote chisel made by Korehide Chiyozuru, and had him imitate it in developing this style. Chiyozuru's style is widely acknowledged as the most elegant kote nomi style. The filework is not as refined as Ichihiro's, but it is decent. I only have this three by Kiyotada. He never made many of them, and they are always hard to get. One of those chisels you don't use a lot, but when you need it, nothing else will do the job as well. Great for inletting swamped barrels into curly maple Kentucky longrifle stocks too.

I have other kote nomi, but compared to these, they are ugly and clumsy and depressing to use.

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[Stanley Covington]

Next is a specialised tsuki or paring chisel. I don't know the precise name. I bought it at Suiheiya in Tokyo 25 or 26 years ago. I had never seen one before, and have never seen another since. It is intended to be used with the ura riding a jig to pare to a precise angle. Perfect for 45 degree mitres, etc. It is very stiff. The ura is unique because it has multiple hollows, the better to ride the jig without digging in. The Japanese red oak handle is beautiful. This is one chisel I would never be without. I suppose I should ask the kids to toss it into my coffin before they close the lid.

Stan

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[ken hatch]

Stanley,

Thanks for taking the time to make and post these photos. The little bit of history with each is also nice.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Thank you Stanley for posting these up! Gorgeous chisels!

You keep up on them very well. I don't recall seeing any of your comments on it, but I assume that you use natural stones from the hazy finish on the Ji. Would you share with us any specifics on your stone preferences?

Cheers
Brian

[Stanley Covington]

Thank you Stanley for posting these up! Gorgeous chisels!

You keep up on them very well. I don't recall seeing any of your comments on it, but I assume that you use natural stones from the hazy finish on the Ji. Would you share with us any specifics on your stone preferences?

Cheers
Brian

Brian:

My favorite finish stone for chisels is a Honyama, medium soft. A bit green instead of light brown. I have another Honyama stone, yellowish brown, and a bit softer, that I use for planes. I have a Karasuyama for sharpening my razor. Harder, but it really likes my tamahagane razor after a dressing with a tsushima nagura.

I don't pretend to know a lot about natural stones as they can be frightfully expensive to experiment with. When I first started buying natural stones, I made some expensive mistakes. In one case, I was outright duped by a tool store owner in Sendai. After that, I took a wise man's advice and bought a lot of koppa, small, irregular shaped stones from the various mines at cheap prices, and tried them until I found the mine that produced stones with the texture and hardness that work best for my tools and sharpening style, and that achieved the best finish, and then bought the larger stones to match. This has worked very well for me.

Stan

[Jeffrey Martel]

Thanks for this. There's a good chance I'll be taking 2 weeks to go to Japan later this summer and I'm planning on picking up some good chisels at the very least. Not sure what style yet, so can't narrow down makers until I decide that.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ahh, sounds like a nice setup. I'm slowly seeing the genius of medium finish stones, rather than super hard finish stones. I love the super hard stone for very delicate work, but it slows things down a lot on anything else.

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Stanley,

Thank you so much for posting your chisels. Incredible stuff. I especially liked the last paring chisel. It is elegant.

I have my own set of Samurai sword steel chisels from Chiturro Imai. Imai is a current maker and I was lucky enough to buy a set of 15 with Tagayasan rosewood handles that are simply stunning. I posted pics a while back. I very much appreciated your advice to Brian on the natural stones. I think the best way to proceed is to buy some small irregular samples to see what works best for me. Thanks. This is a great post for me all around. I am just starting with Japanese tools. I really like the tradition and the very distinct focus on the steel. With planes and chisels, the steel is the only matter. It is wonderful stuff.

Thanks Stanley

Joe

[Dave Beauchesne]

Stanley:
Thank you for sharing the pictures and information. I have an interest in any Japanese tools, as our daughter in law is a Fukuoka native. Alas, unless the planets align, owning some of the primo chisels is a slim chance.
I like the piece of Tamo you used as a background for the photos. I was gifted a piece when I went to Japan to visit our DILs family - they took me to see Nashida San ( a master carpenter on the South Island ) and he graciously gave me a small piece of Tamo as well as some camphor wood.
Thanks again.

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley:
Thank you for sharing the pictures and information. I have an interest in any Japanese tools, as our daughter in law is a Fukuoka native. Alas, unless the planets align, owning some of the primo chisels is a slim chance.
I like the piece of Tamo you used as a background for the photos. I was gifted a piece when I went to Japan to visit our DILs family - they took me to see Nashida San ( a master carpenter on the South Island ) and he graciously gave me a small piece of Tamo as well as some camphor wood.
Thanks again.

Dave:

Good luck getting some good chisels.

Tamo is a great wood. I need to turn that board into the facings of a cabinet for my wife someday.....

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks for this. There's a good chance I'll be taking 2 weeks to go to Japan later this summer and I'm planning on picking up some good chisels at the very least. Not sure what style yet, so can't narrow down makers until I decide that.

Jeff:

You won't find Kiyotada chisels (by Shimamura san) in the stores anymore. They pop up on auctions now and then. They were expensive when Shimamura san made mine, but since his death, the prices have gone insane.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I thought it would be useful to add some more information to the thread about the blacksmith himself.

There was a famous metallurgist from Niigata Prefecture named Kosuke Iwasaki that had a profound impact on blacksmithing throughout Japan. He probably contributed more to the scientific understanding (versus "tradition") of the chemical processes involved in formulating, forging, and heat treating tool steel by Japanese blacksmiths, and the improvement and widespread use of quality control methodology in blacksmithing thorought Japan than any single man before or since.

What has Iwasaki got to do with Kiyotada chisels, you ask? Patience. Iwasaki wrote that the best chisel smiths in all of Japan at the time were located in Tokyo. He tested the chisels of the top 4 chisel smiths in Tokyo and proclaimed Chugoro Shimamura as the best. If Iwasaki is to be believed, that makes Shimamura the best chisel smith in Japan. Certainly a lot of Japanese craftsmen believe it. The link below is to a webpage by Mr. Suzuki who has written 5 or 6 volumes on Japanese toolmakers. Sorry its in Japanese.

http://www.misyuku-suzuki-kanamonoten.com/nomikajimeijin2.html

The blacksmith was born Chugoro Shimamura (島村忠五郎) in 1890 in Yokohama just a few blocks from my current jobsite. The name implies he was his father's fifth son. He apprenticed to a blacksmith in Nagoya at age 15 and learned to make sickles, hoes, and other such farm implements. According to Suzuki, he developed an interest in chisels, and learned how to make them without formal instruction from a master. He eventually went independent and returned to Tokyo, setting up his first forge in Hashiba in Asakusa Bashi. He relocated several times, but when I visited him, he was working in the Tsukishima area of Chuo Ward (not far from Ginza in a rather rundown residential area).

The name he worked under was Kiyotada (清忠), combining the character Kiyo (清）meaning "pure" with the character Tada (忠) meaning "faithful." He probably took the Tada character from his own name, because the "Chu" in Chugoro can also be pronounced "Tada."　

Allow me to digress for a minute. For many decades, Suiheiya (translated as "Level Store" as in the bubble level tool) was the largest tool store in Japan. They are probably still the largest retailer of high-quality woodworking handtools in Japan, and if you are in the area, you should pay them a visit. My favourite guy there passed away last year, so I feel sad about visiting nowadays, but they still have excellent tools. A 15 minute walk from Kaminarimon in Asakusa, or a five minute taxi ride. I think the current owner is the founder's great grandson, but his English is not so good, sorry to say.

（株）水平屋商店東京都台東区千束１丁目１−３


 Suiheiya Shouten
Address: 1 Chome-1-3 Senzoku, Taito, Tokyo 111-0031

Phone:03-3875-0292


What has Suiheiya to do with Kiyotada, you ask? Obviously Shimamura san had a deep and longstanding relationship with Suiheiya. What is curious is that I was told that Suiheiya owned the registered trademark for the Kiyotada brand, but that Suiheiya was fine with Shimamura using the brand (actually a metal stamp) on all his tools regardless of retailer. I checked with Suiheiya, and indeed, they informed me, they own the Kiyotada trademark. That is why you can still buy chisels and planes with the Kiyotada brand on them from Suiheiya. Identical to the one on my chisel photos.

The blacksmith who currently makes the Kiyotada brand chisel for Suiheiya resides in Niigata, but his work is unimpressive. Most of the large plane blades sold by Suiheiya under the Kiyotada brand are made by Sekikawa san. I have visited Mr. Sekikawa's home and forge, and have owned lots of his blades for many years, have always found them very well made, and an excellent value. But they are not made by Shimamura san, so if you go to Suiheiya and ask for a Kiyotada chisel, be sure to ask if the maker was Shimamura san, or the Niigata blacksmith.

Another retailer in Tokyo of Shimamura san's chisels was Mr. Ichiro Tsuchida. Although his store is not as grand as Suiheiya (only two or at most three people can actually enter his store at the same time) I have bought a lot of tools from him over the years. You can tell this from my collection. The white oak handled chisels in these photos were bought at Tsuchida Hamonoten, now operated by Ichiro's son Noboru, and the red oak handled chisels were bought from Suiheiya. Simple personal preference of the shop owners. Those that he made for me custom are also handled in white oak as the transaction went through Tsuchida san.

Probably more information than you wanted, but the price was right.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Brian:

My favorite finish stone for chisels is a Honyama, medium soft. A bit green instead of light brown. I have another Honyama stone, yellowish brown, and a bit softer, that I use for planes. I have a Karasuyama for sharpening my razor. Harder, but it really likes my tamahagane razor after a dressing with a tsushima nagura.

I don't pretend to know a lot about natural stones as they can be frightfully expensive to experiment with. When I first started buying natural stones, I made some expensive mistakes. In one case, I was outright duped by a tool store owner in Sendai. After that, I took a wise man's advice and bought a lot of koppa, small, irregular shaped stones from the various mines at cheap prices, and tried them until I found the mine that produced stones with the texture and hardness that work best for my tools and sharpening style, and that achieved the best finish, and then bought the larger stones to match. This has worked very well for me.

Stan

Here are some pictures of my stones, as well as the sort of koppa (or scraps) I used to learn which stone work best for me and my tools.

The first pic from left is of two koppa.

The next three are of my best stone, a Honyama of unusual beauty that creates a wonderful, cloudy finish on good hard steel, and a flat grey finish on soft steel. A bit on the soft side, it loves my plane blades and vice versa. It is wider than standard stones, but shorter and a tad thinner. This makes it perfect for my purposes, and the way I sharpen plane blades. Also, a stone of this quality and width, if full length and perfect, would cost many thousands of dollars. I got this one at a reasonable price (a long time ago). I am careful of when and how I use this stone to prolong its life. I did not attach it to a base, but keep it in a dedicated plastic container and wrapped in bubble wrap when not in use. It has not spit up any sand yet.

The next three pics are of the natural finishing stone I use the most. It too is from Honyama. It is not as fine as the stone to the left, but it is still very good. It is harder and more durable, and chisels are less likely to gouge its surface. I Use it for planes, chisels, kiridashi, and most everything. I need a standard sized stone like this at hand all the time, and in 15 years or so, will wear one out entirely. I have had this one for about 5 years, and paid around $500 for it. That was a reasonable price, but I could have probably procured it for less if I had had the time to shop around and travel to Kyoto.

Both stones have their perimeter and undersides painted with an artificial urethane called Cashew made from the oil of the cashew tree. Urushi (natural lacquer) is the traditional coating, but my wife breaks out in hives if she is anywhere near urushi, so Cashew is the next best thing. One guy in a book on stones I have glued a layer of patterned washi paper to the perimeter of his stones. The effect was nice, but a bit too gay for my taste.

The purpose of the paint, for those that don't know, is to keep water from penetrating the sides of the stone causing the layers of sedimentary material that form natural stones to separate. I have not experienced that so far (knock on forehead). Perhaps it is because of the paint. In any case, natural stones stones like these are quite fragile and must be treated with care.

The base of the large stone is made from a cutoff of Ipe deck material from one of my jobsites. Two pieces laminated one on top of the other actually. I have tried a number of materials for stone bases, and Ipe has been the best so far by a country mile. I highly recommend it.

Most of you will have never used stones like these, and would have a difficult time even finding them if you developed the itch to have your own. Please understand that you don't need stones like these to sharpen your tools to maximum sharpness. They are undoubtedly a waste of time and money. But they do make the tools beautiful, and perhaps make them cut a little longer, and are so very very pleasant to use.

Stan

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[Jim Koepke]

Probably more information than you wanted, but the price was right.

I found it an enjoyable read. Thanks for sharing.

Though I may never own a Japanese chisel, it is interesting to learn about something different than what I am using.

jtk

[David Wong]

Stanley,
Really beautiful finish stones. Amazing consistency and purity on your honyama. Thanks for taking the time to photo and post them. I had a not-so-expensive natural stone separate on the sedimentary layers on me. It was a thick (grade 30) soft stone, and I was careless not using it with a base. I repaired it with cashew lacquer and paper, and now have it attached to a wooden base. Documented here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?188586-Repairing-a-natural-waterstone&referrerid=41134).

david

[Joey Arispe]

Unbelievably beautiful chisels Stanley. I'd be very proud to have such gems.

I want to buy my first set of Japanese chisels soon. I'm want a set of butt chisels that will last my entire life.

I'm thinking of the Koyamaichi white steel oire-nomi chisels that toolsfromjapan.com has for sale. Would you recommend that brand for a beginner who wants to take these chisels with him to all stages of his journey?

Thanks


http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=312_489_490_491&products_id=1339

[Stanley Covington]

Unbelievably beautiful chisels Stanley. I'd be very proud to have such gems.

I want to buy my first set of Japanese chisels soon. I'm want a set of butt chisels that will last my entire life.

I'm thinking of the Koyamaichi white steel oire-nomi chisels that toolsfromjapan.com has for sale. Would you recommend that brand for a beginner who wants to take these chisels with him to all stages of his journey?

Thanks


http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=312_489_490_491&products_id=1339

Joey:

I have never used Koyamaichi chisels, and so cannot speak to their quality, but several other people I respect have praised them. They are advertised as being made from White Paper steel, which is indicative of a blacksmith with an above-average level of skill paying above-average attention to QC. They are clearly Kansai style chisels probably from Miki, and so are probably a bit softer than I like. What can I say... I am a chisel snob.

But the price is very good, and the Yen exchange rate is still in your favor, so they might make a decent choice. I have no doubt that, with care, they will be very useful for your entire life, however long that may be.

On a practical note, the nice thing about chisels is that you can always use another set. I have my Kiyotada chisels, but I also have the set of "beaters" by Kiyohisa here in Japan with me, and another set of beaters (Ouchi or Iyoroi, I don't remember which) in the US which I bought in Sendai before I really new much about chisels. And I have had other sets I ended up giving away to my sons and friends. If you find a set you like more later, well then price of the Koyamaichi set is not so high that you will regret it.

I hope this helps.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley,
Really beautiful finish stones. Amazing consistency and purity on your honyama. Thanks for taking the time to photo and post them. I had a not-so-expensive natural stone separate on the sedimentary layers on me. It was a thick (grade 30) soft stone, and I was careless not using it with a base. I repaired it with cashew lacquer and paper, and now have it attached to a wooden base. Documented here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?188586-Repairing-a-natural-waterstone&referrerid=41134).

david

David:

Thanks for pointing out your post. Very interesting story. Perhaps I can fill in some pieces of the puzzle for the other readers.

Natural stones can and will fall apart. Don't leave them soaking in a bucket of water. Coat the sides.

As David's post illuminates, they can often be repaired, but don't count on it.

Cashew is not artificial urushi, although it is sold as such. It is a natural urethane made from the sap of the cashew tree, mostly sourced in Thailand. It does not need high temperatures or high humidity to cure, unlike urushi lacquer. I have used it for a long time for hobby projects, but also in construction projects as a finish material in hotel projects were the designer wanted an urushi-like appearance, but higher strength and abrasion resistance was indicated.

I don't know if kaki shibu will make the paper tougher than the Cashew will all by itself, but it will change the color. Of course, the Cashew will immediately change the color itself, so I think the kakishibu is just a traditional thing. Using washi paper to reinforce the sides makes perfect sense, washi being so strong.

A base is a good thing, but I don't see how one would prevent delamination of the stone.

Two cents.

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

Stan,

Thanks for posting up those photos! Wow, that's a nice stone...approaches the egg color that is much sought after. That stone is a Honyama, so from Nakayama? It nearly looks like a synthetic, so quite top notch.

Anyone who has not tried natural stones, yes it's an expensive process, but one of the most rewarding. I'm very happy using natural stones, it's made a not so enjoyable process into a very enjoyable one.

My first stone is still one of my favorites, it's a Shinden suita of an odd shape/size and it's gorgeous to me because it works beautifully. David Weaver helped me to choose it from a AframesTokyo. I think that is a good place to start, along with the Koppa stones because until you know what you really enjoy you could spend quite a bit on things that you won't really want to use as you progress.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Jeff:

You won't find Kiyotada chisels (by Shimamura san) in the stores anymore. They pop up on auctions now and then. They were expensive when Shimamura san made mine, but since his death, the prices have gone insane.

Stan

Any recommendations on good chisels that would be available on a walk-in basis to some various stores (small or large stores)? Say somewhere in the 11,500 yen range per chisel or under ($100 USD right now). I know I can just buy some from Stu, but I'd like to see them in person first if possible.

[David Wong]

Stan,

Thanks for the further explanation. I was not sure about the humidity and temperature requirements for curing the cashew urethane. The stone I showed was never soaked, as far as I know. I would always handle it by grasping the stone by its side. The delamination opened up when lifting it. I was certainly lucky the stone did not fly apart completely. I felt the stress of lifting the stone while not properly supporting its weight, contributed to the split. In any case, as you said, a base is a good thing.

David

[Joey Arispe]

I have no doubt that, with care, they will be very useful for your entire life, however long that may be.

On a practical note, the nice thing about chisels is that you can always use another set. I have my Kiyotada chisels, but I also have the set of "beaters" by Kiyohisa here in Japan with me, and another set of beaters (Ouchi or Iyoroi, I don't remember which) in the US which I bought in Sendai before I really new much about chisels. And I have had other sets I ended up giving away to my sons and friends. If you find a set you like more later, well then price of the Koyamaichi set is not so high that you will regret it.

Stan

Thank you Stan! I really appreciate your insight. Hope I live long enough to hold some nice chisels in my own hands...hah

I plan on buying a set of old used Japanese chisels on Ebay, too. I plan on restoring them. I figure I could use some of the ones I don't like as my beater chisels and still probably find some great chisels.

[Allan Speers]

You know, "Japanese tool porn" is like watching people shag with their clothes on. :p


The very best stuff is often so unassuming..... but therein lies the beauty.
The absolute pinnacle of "function over form," or something like that. (Damascus steel notwithstanding.)

[Brian Holcombe]

I used to really like mokume and all of that type of stuff (still do with hammers, though I do not own any mokume gennou), but eventually found the highest appreciation for things like sen scraped ura, black oxide finished ura, gumi handles, filed hoops and white steel.

The sex appeal is still plenty there, but refined. I did not get (understand) gumi handles for the longest time, but then I acquired a few chisels with them and the material was very clear, pale yellow and with pith in the center. It was clean like plastic but nice to handle. Using it is just great, it absorbs hammer blows nicely with just enough spring to it.

[Stanley Covington]

I used to really like mokume and all of that type of stuff (still do with hammers, though I do not own any mokume gennou), but eventually found the highest appreciation for things like sen scraped ura, black oxide finished ura, gumi handles, filed hoops and white steel.

The sex appeal is still plenty there, but refined. I did not get (understand) gumi handles for the longest time, but then I acquired a few chisels with them and the material was very clear, pale yellow and with pith in the center. It was clean like plastic but nice to handle. Using it is just great, it absorbs hammer blows nicely with just enough spring to it.

Never tried gumi handles, the color seems strange....

My chisel fetish is at the point where I find myself humming like Homer Simpson when I see subtly blended, carefully aligned deft filework on a chisel's neck, shoulder, and back (Ichihiro), or sink a newly sharpened tataki nomi into a timber, and pull it out and see the bevel smiling back at me, ready for more cutting (Kiyotada) ....

Plane blades get more credit, and are often unjustifiably more expensive based on manhours expended and skill requirements, but the fact is that chisels are so much more difficult and time consuming for a blacksmith to make well; Each a small, precise sculpture that must endure abuse and extreme forces.

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

I wasn't over the moon about them until receiving a set of Konobu with gumi handles. Wherever he sources his handles from must be absolutely top quality, both the shitan rosewood and gumi are really the best I've received.

I like white oak as well! I have a set in white oak (well 4....so a small set, hah).

[Steve Voigt]

Those are some great looking chisels, Stan. Thanks for sharing.

[Patrick Walsh]

What a wonderfull collection..

[shawn mcveigh]

I thought it would be useful to add some more information to the thread about the blacksmith himself.

There was a famous metallurgist from Niigata Prefecture named Kosuke Iwasaki that had a profound impact on blacksmithing throughout Japan. He probably contributed more to the scientific understanding (versus "tradition") of the chemical processes involved in formulating, forging, and heat treating tool steel by Japanese blacksmiths, and the improvement and widespread use of quality control methodology in blacksmithing thorought Japan than any single man before or since.

What has Iwasaki got to do with Kiyotada chisels, you ask? Patience. Iwasaki wrote that the best chisel smiths in all of Japan at the time were located in Tokyo. He tested the chisels of the top 4 chisel smiths in Tokyo and proclaimed Chugoro Shimamura as the best. If Iwasaki is to be believed, that makes Shimamura the best chisel smith in Japan. Certainly a lot of Japanese craftsmen believe it. The link below is to a webpage by Mr. Suzuki who has written 5 or 6 volumes on Japanese toolmakers. Sorry its in Japanese.

http://www.misyuku-suzuki-kanamonoten.com/nomikajimeijin2.html

The blacksmith was born Chugoro Shimamura (島村忠五郎) in 1890 in Yokohama just a few blocks from my current jobsite. The name implies he was his father's fifth son. He apprenticed to a blacksmith in Nagoya at age 15 and learned to make sickles, hoes, and other such farm implements. According to Suzuki, he developed an interest in chisels, and learned how to make them without formal instruction from a master. He eventually went independent and returned to Tokyo, setting up his first forge in Hashiba in Asakusa Bashi. He relocated several times, but when I visited him, he was working in the Tsukishima area of Chuo Ward (not far from Ginza in a rather rundown residential area).

The name he worked under was Kiyotada (清忠), combining the character Kiyo (清）meaning "pure" with the character Tada (忠) meaning "faithful." He probably took the Tada character from his own name, because the "Chu" in Chugoro can also be pronounced "Tada."　

Allow me to digress for a minute. For many decades, Suiheiya (translated as "Level Store" as in the bubble level tool) was the largest tool store in Japan. They are probably still the largest retailer of high-quality woodworking handtools in Japan, and if you are in the area, you should pay them a visit. My favourite guy there passed away last year, so I feel sad about visiting nowadays, but they still have excellent tools. A 15 minute walk from Kaminarimon in Asakusa, or a five minute taxi ride. I think the current owner is the founder's great grandson, but his English is not so good, sorry to say.

（株）水平屋商店東京都台東区千束１丁目１−３


 Suiheiya Shouten
Address: 1 Chome-1-3 Senzoku, Taito, Tokyo 111-0031

Phone:03-3875-0292


What has Suiheiya to do with Kiyotada, you ask? Obviously Shimamura san had a deep and longstanding relationship with Suiheiya. What is curious is that I was told that Suiheiya owned the registered trademark for the Kiyotada brand, but that Suiheiya was fine with Shimamura using the brand (actually a metal stamp) on all his tools regardless of retailer. I checked with Suiheiya, and indeed, they informed me, they own the Kiyotada trademark. That is why you can still buy chisels and planes with the Kiyotada brand on them from Suiheiya. Identical to the one on my chisel photos.

The blacksmith who currently makes the Kiyotada brand chisel for Suiheiya resides in Niigata, but his work is unimpressive. Most of the large plane blades sold by Suiheiya under the Kiyotada brand are made by Sekikawa san. I have visited Mr. Sekikawa's home and forge, and have owned lots of his blades for many years, have always found them very well made, and an excellent value. But they are not made by Shimamura san, so if you go to Suiheiya and ask for a Kiyotada chisel, be sure to ask if the maker was Shimamura san, or the Niigata blacksmith.

Another retailer in Tokyo of Shimamura san's chisels was Mr. Ichiro Tsuchida. Although his store is not as grand as Suiheiya (only two or at most three people can actually enter his store at the same time) I have bought a lot of tools from him over the years. You can tell this from my collection. The white oak handled chisels in these photos were bought at Tsuchida Hamonoten, now operated by Ichiro's son Noboru, and the red oak handled chisels were bought from Suiheiya. Simple personal preference of the shop owners. Those that he made for me custom are also handled in white oak as the transaction went through Tsuchida san.

Probably more information than you wanted, but the price was right.

Stan

That is some great info Stanley! I know this is an old thread but hey if you are still around it would be great to hear your thoughts on Tsunehrio 常弘 and 長弘 Osahiro chisels. I know Osahiro was contemporary with Ichihiro and Kiyotada. Have you used these by any chance? I may be buying a set.

[shawn mcveigh]

That is some great info Stanley! I know this is an old thread but hey if you are still around it would be great to hear your thoughts on Tsunehrio 常弘 and 長弘 Osahiro chisels. I know Osahiro was contemporary with Ichihiro and Kiyotada. Have you used these by any chance? I may be buying a set.

Anyone who uses Kiyotada in comparison has an excellent reference point.

[Brian Holcombe]

Shawn, send me an email and I will direct you to Stan. Bp.holcombe@gmail.com

[Jessica de Boer]

Shawn,

My father has a set of oire nomis and 3 atsu nomis made by Ichihiro and I have oire and atsu nomis made by Stan's blacksmith. I know my fathers chisels intimately and I can honestly say my chisels are on par with them. If you like a chisel that is full hardness (and still tough) you won't regret buying from Stan.

I also have a Nagahiro (Osahiro) mortise chisel on the way :)

[shawn mcveigh]

Shawn,

My father has a set of oire nomis and 3 atsu nomis made by Ichihiro and I have oire and atsu nomis made by Stan's blacksmith. I know my fathers chisels intimately and I can honestly say my chisels are on par with them. If you like a chisel that is full hardness (and still tough) you won't regret buying from Stan.

I also have a Nagahiro (Osahiro) mortise chisel on the way :)

Hey Jessica, Thank you for your reply! I have tried Stan´s blacksmith about 4 years ago....not sure if it the same today? Is this the smith that uses white steel #2? if so they were probably the best reasonably priced chisels I have tried. I also have used everything from Kiyohisa, Kiyotada, Funahiro, Kikuhiromaru etc... Nice score on the Nagahiro chisel! where did you get it from if I may ask?

[shawn mcveigh]

Shawn, send me an email and I will direct you to Stan. Bp.holcombe@gmail.com
Thanks Brian! message sent

[Jessica de Boer]

Hey Jessica, Thank you for your reply! I have tried Stan´s blacksmith about 4 years ago....not sure if it the same today? Is this the smith that uses white steel #2?
My oire and atsu nomis are white steel #1.


if so they were probably the best reasonably priced chisels I have tried. I also have used everything from Kiyohisa, Kiyotada, Funahiro, Kikuhiromaru etc...
I used to have a set of Kikuhiromaru oire nomis but I sold them when I got the ones made by Stan's blacksmith. I didn't order them directly from Stan but they come from a store that sells chisels made by his blacksmith. They are so much better than Kikuhiromaru.


Nice score on the Nagahiro chisel! where did you get it from if I may ask?
When my father was in his 20's he worked in Japan for several years. He always kept in touch with one of his old co-workers (almost 40 years now!) and he has one he offered me for a reasonable price. Of course I immediately accepted. It should take about a week to arrive to me.

[shawn mcveigh]

When my father was in his 20's he worked in Japan for several years. He always kept in touch with one of his old co-workers (almost 40 years now!) and he has one he offered me for a reasonable price. Of course I immediately accepted. It should take about a week to arrive to me.[/QUOTE]

PM sent

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

Handmade chisels is a fascinating subject. I only own one Japanese chisel that I bought from Lee Valley to try out. My daily use chisels are Veritas PVM-11 chisels which I really like. What is the price range on the handmade Japanese chisels?

[Christopher Charles]

Hi Jessica,

What do you like about your new chisels? I have some Kikuhiromaru and am content, so a stupid question....

Best,
Chris

[Jessica de Boer]

What do you like about your new chisels?[/COLOR]
Chris, they are much harder. I would say maybe twice as hard as the Kikuhiromarus I used to have but they are just as tough. I also find them easier to sharpen and they take a sharper edge and hold that sharpness longer. Using my father's Ichihiros has taught me one thing, I like a very hard white paper steel #1 chisel.


What is the price range on the handmade Japanese chisels?
It depends on if you want something from a famous blacksmith and how important a fine finish is for you. Something like Tasai or Kunikei is nicely finished and goes for €100 to €200 for a single chisel depending on the size and finish while the chisels that Stan's blacksmith makes are equal or better for half the price. For me it's all about performance so the choice was easy. (I personally think the finish is very nice)

[Luke Dupont]

Chris, they are much harder. I would say maybe twice as hard as the Kikuhiromarus I used to have but they are just as tough. I also find them easier to sharpen and they take a sharper edge and hold that sharpness longer. Using my father's Ichihiros has taught me one thing, I like a very hard white paper steel #1 chisel.


It depends on if you want something from a famous blacksmith and how important a fine finish is for you. Something like Tasai or Kunikei is nicely finished and goes for €100 to €200 for a single chisel depending on the size and finish while the chisels that Stan's blacksmith makes are equal or better for half the price. For me it's all about performance so the choice was easy. (I personally think the finish is very nice)

Do you have any trouble sharpening those super hard white steel #1 chisels on natural stones? About what Rockwell Hardness would you put them at?

I like to use natural oil stones (and, to a degree also a few Jnats), so I tend to shy away from super hard steels. My very limited experience with low end Japanese white steel is that despite being harder, it is still easy to sharpen on natural stones. This makes it infinitely better than PMV-11 in my eyes, just as I consider O1 far superior to A2 (given how close they are in performance), so I wonder if this holds true for harder white steels as well.

[Warren Mickley]

Luke, you might be confusing hardness with abrasion resistance. High chrome steels like stainless resist abrasion, which makes them harder to sharpen, but not generally harder than simple carbon steels.

[Luke Dupont]

Luke, you might be confusing hardness with abrasion resistance. High chrome steels like stainless resist abrasion, which makes them harder to sharpen, but not generally harder than simple carbon steels.

Ahhh, I see. I guess this is also why white steel seems so prone to rust compared to my A1 or even O1 tools. And, unless I'm mistaken, my cheap Japanese chisels seem even easier to sharpen than my O1 tools, which would make sense if O1 has more chrome content.

What would be a similar Western equivelant? Simple "1095 Carbon Steel"? It seems odd that I never hear of any modern tool manufacturers using 1095.

To be honest, I'm not very knowledgeable of steel types in general. This is something I'd like to learn more about, as I'd like to learn to make some of my own tools in the future (and/or possibly have some custom made).

[Kees Heiden]

To be a little bit more exact: Yes, increased hardness increases the abrasion resistance of a steel, as long as we talk about the same composition of the steel! Adding a lot of chromium to a steel increases the abrasion resistance, without neccessarily increasing the hardness.

Why do we harden tool steel:
- To make the steel more resistant against deformation. You don't want the edge of a chisel to bent over on a hard wood.
- To increase the abrasion resistance, especially usefull for plane irons for example.

Higher hardness usually leads to less toughness: The edge chips out more easilly. How the Japanese smiths manage very high hardness combined with still very reasonable touchness is their secret. Something to do with their choice of steel, the heat treatment resulting in a very fine grain structure, and probably the lamination construction plays a role too.

And 1095 is not really similar to Japanes white paper steel. The white paper steel is a very simple steel, but has a rather high carbon content in the range of 1.3%. 1095 is also a simple steel but it has a lower carbon content around 1% and it has about 0.3% manganese to help against the bad influence of phosphorus or sulphur contamination (not quite sure now which one...) and it helps a bit with heat treating.

[Jessica de Boer]

Do you have any trouble sharpening those super hard white steel #1 chisels on natural stones? About what Rockwell Hardness would you put them at?

According to Stan Covington they are 66-67 rockwell hardness, I believe that is about as hard as they can make white steel. They sharpen very nicely on my natural finishing stone. My friend who gave me stone suggested I get a small Atoma 400, they make one that is 1/4 the size of the normal Atoma, to make a slurry as this speeds up the sharpening and adds some lubrication. I followed his advice and it does indeed make sharpening easier.

[Jessica de Boer]

I have oire and atsu nomis made by Stan's blacksmith.

A small correction. I learned my atsu nomis are not made by Stan's blacksmith but by a blacksmith called Yoshio Usui. He also produces for jindaiko-honpo. They are every bit as good as my oire nomis which are made by Stan's blacksmith. If someone hadn't told me about my atsu nomis I would never even have suspected they were made by another blacksmith.

[Warren Mickley]

According to Stan Covington they are 66-67 rockwell hardness, I believe that is about as hard as they can make white steel.

Are you suggesting that these chisels were not tempered at all?

[Brian Holcombe]

Warren, they’re likely tempered at 100 degrees Celsius which is the least amount of temper I’m aware of. It was advertised by Kiyohisa under his Kamon line of tools. Not the same as Kiyotada but worth noting because it is advertised so specifically and geared to fit the same niche as Kiyotada.

[Dom Campbell]

A small correction. I learned my atsu nomis are not made by Stan's blacksmith but by a blacksmith called Yoshio Usui. He also produces for jindaiko-honpo. They are every bit as good as my oire nomis which are made by Stan's blacksmith. If someone hadn't told me about my atsu nomis I would never even have suspected they were made by another blacksmith.

Yohsio Usui also makes/oversees the Sukemaru brand chisels, and is very well known. They also make HSS chisels, but I don't have any experience of those, but the thought alone of sharpening them gives me the creeps.

I have some Mukoumachi Nomi from Stan's blacksmith, and Tataki (Atsu) Nomi from Usui/Sukemaru, and I can confirm what you say... I doubt you can get much better quality at any price point.

[Jessica de Boer]

Warren, they’re likely tempered at 100 degrees Celsius which is the least amount of temper I’m aware of.
Stan did indeed mention they were tempered at very low temperature, just enough to relieve the stress in the steel.


I have some Mukoumachi Nomi from Stan's blacksmith, and Tataki (Atsu) Nomi from Usui/Sukemaru, and I can confirm what you say... I doubt you can get much better quality at any price point.
Considering the fact that my oire nomis from Stan's blacksmith and my atsu nomis form Yoshio Usui are on par with my father's Ichihiro's (who in turn was a peer of Kiyotada and Nagahiro) I would say you are correct. I doubt you will find anything better regardless of the price. I actually think my atsu nomis are a smidgeon better than Ichihiro. I feel they are a little bit tougher.

[Noah Magnuson]

Just to add to the discussion and give a comparison to quality western counterparts. I have quite a few nomis (oire, mukomachinomi, and mentori usunomi) from Stan's blacksmith(s). They sharpen easier than my PM-V11 chisels and have a notably finer edge in my experience -- not that the Veritas chisels are lacking. They (PM-V11) will almost certainly take a bit more abuse.

[Jessica de Boer]

I read a review once by a Derek somethingsomething and he tested a bunch of chisels, a Koyamaichi white steel chisel, Veritas, an A2 chisel and a Stanley. He used them on some kind of hard Australian wood if I remember correctly and the Koyamaichi lasted the longest.

[Noah Magnuson]

I read a review once by a Derek somethingsomething and he tested a bunch of chisels, a Koyamaichi white steel chisel, Veritas, an A2 chisel and a Stanley. He used them on some kind of hard Australian wood if I remember correctly and the Koyamaichi lasted the longest.
Just to be clear, if you were referencing my 'abuse' comment, it was not with respect to edge retention, which one would expect WS to win, but real abuse like prying/twisting etc. (poor technique). It may not be the case, but the white steel edge should be a bit 'more' brittle. If you drove them both "too deep" and pried, I suspect the PM comes out with less edge damage -- though I am not testing this theory.

[Warren Mickley]

I read a review once by a Derek somethingsomething and he tested a bunch of chisels, a Koyamaichi white steel chisel, Veritas, an A2 chisel and a Stanley. He used them on some kind of hard Australian wood if I remember correctly and the Koyamaichi lasted the longest.

I read Derek's review and replicated the tests with my own chisels using jarrah, Derek's beloved Australian hardwood. All of my chisels gave better results than all of Derek's chisels. They did much more work and were still sharper.

The trouble with this type of testing is that it is very much dependent on the skill and technique of the tester. It is extremely difficult to separate out what results come from the tool and what comes from the user. A beginner can mangle an edge in seconds. The fastest technique is generally the least abusive.

I use 19th century English chisels, and I prefer stuff from early in the century. They are highly tempered so they sharpen very quickly. I finish the chisels on Arkansas stones

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, firstly, I am not a beginner. But even if I were, what is more relevant than technique - when testing chisel steel - is that the method used remains consistent for all testing. That is the scientific method.

Secondly, within this frame, the results you achieved are irrelevant. You were not using the same piece of wood I used for all chisels, and you were not using the same method I used for each of the chisels. You only used a single chisel. There was no comparison made between chisels with the same different steel types.

I picked up the chisels to prove that the steels were different and to find out more about their edge holding. You picked up your chisels to prove that you know more than I, that your chisels are better than anything we have today (well, you are likely correct in both cases, but that does not alter my comments. This is not about your - unobtainable- chisels). I would now request that you resist the temptation to post these same comments whenever you get the chance since your critique is simply not valid.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I read a review once by a Derek somethingsomething and he tested a bunch of chisels, a Koyamaichi white steel chisel, Veritas, an A2 chisel and a Stanley. He used them on some kind of hard Australian wood if I remember correctly and the Koyamaichi lasted the longest.

Jessica, here is the article ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rhys Hurcombe]

Another +1 for Stan's blacksmith. I have 5 mukomachi nomi from him that i've enjoyed using. I'd say you're not getting the level of fit and finish that you may get from other certain smiths but the steel / forge quality is at the top plus the price is hard to beat for their performance! Especially the case with mukomachi nomi, they have to be accurately made otherwise you'll be having endless troubles getting accurate mortises. I'm not talking about squaring routed mortise corners or finishing off a mortise that's been hogged out with a drill bit. A mortise purely made with the chisel. Wouldn't mind trying out an usu nomi from him, too. I have some kiku's and kiyohisas but always like trying new chisels. Might have to sell the kiyohisa's :) ....

[Jessica de Boer]

Wouldn't mind trying out an usu nomi from him, too.

Jindaiko-honpo has usu nomis that are made by Stan's blacksmith if you want some fairly quickly

https://www.jindaiko-honpo.jp/shop/products/detail/24

I also ordered 2 mokumachi nomis from them, these are also made by Yoshio Usui. I was going to buy a Nagahiro mokumachi nomi but the seller backed out.

[brian zawatsky]

Another +1 for Stan's blacksmith. I have 5 mukomachi nomi from him that i've enjoyed using. I'd say you're not getting the level of fit and finish that you may get from other certain smiths but the steel / forge quality is at the top plus the price is hard to beat for their performance! Especially the case with mukomachi nomi, they have to be accurately made otherwise you'll be having endless troubles getting accurate mortises. I'm not talking about squaring routed mortise corners or finishing off a mortise that's been hogged out with a drill bit. A mortise purely made with the chisel. Wouldn't mind trying out an usu nomi from him, too. I have some kiku's and kiyohisas but always like trying new chisels. Might have to sell the kiyohisa's :) ....

I have a shinogi nomi and a mitsuura usunomi, both from Stan's smith. I am very pleased with the quality of the steel in both. The shinogi nomi is thin in cross section and light in the hand allowing for very precise cuts. The mitsuura usunomi is a wide paring chisel (32mm) that was ordered specifically for paring operations where the ura side would reference on an adjacent flat surface, and also for use in fitting tenons where I like to use a chisel that is wider than the tenon is long. It is a work of art and a joy to use.

[Matt Lau]

Interesting to follow this thread.

I've been away from the creek for a while. Partly because of the stuff that happened to Stan.
Partly because I've been extremely busy with my small business.

Jessica- I thought Usui was a very highly regarded blacksmith? Stan had mentioned that he might find me some Usui planes as a favor, but the guy's stuff in general has gotten "hollywood" in pricing (but I'm not sure if I'm messing up smiths).

Derek- I had some Koyamaichi chisels from Stu (tried it as a New Year's special).
The Koyamaichi chisels are good, take a great edge, and easy to sharpen.
My Masashige chisels from Hida are better, tougher, take a better edge, and as easy to sharpen.
I got mine used off ebay, from some woodworker in Oregon.
http://www.hidatool.com/woodworking/chisels/masashige-bench-chisel-set-of-10-single-hollow-red-oak-handle
The Stan economy white chisels are significantly better than my Masashige chisels.
You should seriously try those chisels.

Anyways, it's a pleasure using great tools.

[Jessica de Boer]

Jessica- I thought Usui was a very highly regarded blacksmith?
Stan said to me once he thinks Usui makes "a very fine" chisel. I think he doesn't use those words lightly to describe a chisel. I certainly am very content with mine. They are very hard, tough, don't chip and are easy to sharpen. What more could one want in a chisel?


Stan had mentioned that he might find me some Usui planes as a favor, but the guy's stuff in general has gotten "hollywood" in pricing (but I'm not sure if I'm messing up smiths).
I think there's a possibility you might be thinking of a blacksmith called Funatsu. Stan expressed his loathing for him, how he went "Hollywood" and jacked up his prices.

[Vincent Tai]

Stan said to me once he thinks Usui makes "a very fine" chisel. I think he doesn't use those words lightly to describe a chisel. I certainly am very content with mine. They are very hard, tough, don't chip and are easy to sharpen. What more could one want in a chisel?


I think there's a possibility you might be thinking of a blacksmith called Funatsu. Stan expressed his loathing for him, how he went "Hollywood" and jacked up his prices.

When I heard Usui plane my mind jumped to Usui Kengo. But then I don't think that the Usui Kengo would get mixed up. Also kinda past Hollywood pricing with him gone and his already Hollywood equivalent fame before his passing. Interesting about Stan disliking Funahiro. So at J tool recently did his test on the Sukemaru chisels. He had sent me an email about something else and included that he was going to carry these too a little ways back - coincidentally right after Sukemaru had just gotten mentioned here. I am not in a position to buy any tools but like keeping up to date for possible future luck and the test itself was interesting enough but near the end So added something about Funatsu and the world revolving around him. But then tempered it with "he's never arrogant" and you need to get to know him etc sort of thing.

back to non gossip: From So's review on his site
"Sukemaru's Usui-san (the brand owner cum head smith, Yoshio Usui-san) insists that this is made with WS2, I've double checked this, that they can only offer WS2 option, but..., I don't know why, it just very very very much feels like harder and well made WS1 (not the poorly made decarburised ones), but I just can't think of any reason for anyone to want to claim something is WS2 when it's actually WS1..., so I guess it IS WS2, but it's just so darn hard!!!!!!! If you were told that it's WS1, you'd NEVER doubt it, I know I will NEVER!"

This grabbed my attention. So also put these at Ichiros and Kamon Kiyohisas hardness. This speaks highly of this smith's skill. As long as they're hard and decently tough I don't care if its #1 or #2. #2 would achieve Rc 65-66 just fine. Hell even western steels like 1095 can (as quenched before temper). Having the skill to HT in a charcoal forge while avoiding grain growth and having the confidence to leave the chisels at such high hardness going in contrast with the mainstream hobbyist hardnesses... I am jealous.

On the topic of the smith: "But just so you know, the smith who is working on this WS Oiire, he seems to be very old, over 80 according to the rumors, so it won't be too long at all until I won't be able to supply, it could be like next month that he'll announce his retirement, really, so if you are interested, try to get all the sizes you need, and even a back up set or two to last your craftsman lifetime. It should be totally worth it. I mean just look at the price........ If I had enough fund and space to stock, I would order 10~20 sets (of course as a seller I mean, not user, two or three sets will suffice as a user.)"

Sound's like a real old school smith like Stans... I really would be sad if he retired within the half year; another big motivation for me to make money. And start swinging my smithing hammers more...

I also ran across another thread on a place I can't link; "Anyway, about the oire-nomis I'm looking for. I know that Yoshio Usui (Sukemaru) doesn't make them himself (he used to in the past), he subcontracts them out to another blacksmith. These chisels almost as good as the later stuff from Kiyotada but at a third of the price. Very well forged white steel 1 at 65-66HRC and very tough. The same blacksmith also makes chisels for a company called Jindaiko-honpo, a wholesaler Sanjo-shi. The problem is that they don't sell directly to customers overseas. They have an exclusive agreement with a guy called Stanley Covington to handle all their overseas customers. I tried to buy them with Tenso but when they saw my non-Japanese name (or maybe they know what Tenso is) they cancelled the sale. Of course not all stores are like this so I just need to find one that sells Sukemaru white steel oire-nomis."

Could it be that Stan's guy is Yoshio's guy too? Just a thought. Would be pretty cool. The quote above is 4 months old so perhaps knowledge changed. Maybe the person above is a member of our forum. I kinda hesitated because perhaps it would be uncomfortable for the person have their anonymous ID on another forum exposed. Feel free to contact me if you want me to remove this bit.

This post is pretty unorganized and scatter brained. Add the phrase severely sleep deprived and thats me right now. I hope it's linear enough that y'all can read it. I've really liked following this thread. Does make me a little sad that Stan won't be making any more of these threads.

[Jessica de Boer]

Could it be that Stan's guy is Yoshio's guy too? Just a thought. Would be pretty cool.
I can answer this one. Stan told me the blacksmith he works with also makes oire-nomis for Yoshio Usui (Sukemaru) and Jindaiko-honpo. My oire, atsu, usu and mokumachi nomis are all from Jindaiko-honpo. To summarise, my oire and usu-nomis are made by the blacksmith Stan works with, the one who also makes oire and usu-nomis for Yoshio Usui and Jindaiko-honpo. The atsu and mokumachi-nomis are made by Yoshio Usui himself for Jindaiko-honpo. I found there is no noticeable difference in hardness and toughness between my oire-nomis from Stan's blacksmith and Yoshio Usui's atsu and mokumachi-nomis in day to day use.

[Brian Holcombe]

The chisels from Sukemaru that Stan got for me are excellent, same cutting edge quality as the top end WS1 makers.

[Jessica de Boer]

"Sukemaru's Usui-san (the brand owner cum head smith, Yoshio Usui-san)
Did anyone notice something funny in this sentence? Cum is slang for semen hahaha. I wonder if the shop owner knows.

[Tony Wilkins]

Did anyone notice something funny in this sentence? Cum is slang for semen hahaha. I wonder if the shop owner knows.

It’s a word with Latin etymology meaning a second role.

[Simon MacGowen]

It’s a word with Latin etymology meaning a second role.

As in a study-cum-bedroom, or http://www.premiumtoolbags.com/tools-roll-cum-tool-bags-501631.html

Simon

[Vincent Tai]

It’s a word with Latin etymology meaning a second role.

Yeah; So's English is pretty good, he went to university in the States too.

Thank's Jessica for confirming that the smith is one and the same.

[Jessica de Boer]

I know that cum means more things. I just have a dirty mind :D

And I don't know how many of you have ever used Ichihiro chisels but I have used my dad's more times than I can remember. The ones made by this mystery blacksmith are just as good in every way.

[Matt Lau]

[QUOTE=Jessica de Boer;2855207]Stan said to me once he thinks Usui makes "a very fine" chisel. I think he doesn't use those words lightly to describe a chisel. I certainly am very content with mine. They are very hard, tough, don't chip and are easy to sharpen. What more could one want in a chisel?

You might be right.

I'll ask him.
Currently considering getting waterstones to sharpen the proper way.
I've beet gravitating towards O1 and good japanese steel recently.
Feels meditative on a good stone.

[Matt Lau]

I got my blacksmiths mixed up.

Stan indeed mentioned Usui Kengo to me a few years back when I thought of ordering some more tools from him. He said that they're hard to find in non-insane prices, but that he might know a few places.

I might order a 60 mm or smaller plane from him sometime.
However, I promised him that I wouldn't waste my life just buying tools....I'd go out, get a girlfriend, and get on with life.

It's much easier for me to build a server, pull a tooth or do a root canal...sheesh.


When I heard Usui plane my mind jumped to Usui Kengo. But then I don't think that the Usui Kengo would get mixed up. Also kinda past Hollywood pricing with him gone and his already Hollywood equivalent fame before his passing. Interesting about Stan disliking Funahiro. So at J tool recently did his test on the Sukemaru chisels. He had sent me an email about something else and included that he was going to carry these too a little ways back - coincidentally right after Sukemaru had just gotten mentioned here. I am not in a position to buy any tools but like keeping up to date for possible future luck and the test itself was interesting enough but near the end So added something about Funatsu and the world revolving around him. But then tempered it with "he's never arrogant" and you need to get to know him etc sort of thing.

back to non gossip: From So's review on his site
"Sukemaru's Usui-san (the brand owner cum head smith, Yoshio Usui-san) insists that this is made with WS2, I've double checked this, that they can only offer WS2 option, but..., I don't know why, it just very very very much feels like harder and well made WS1 (not the poorly made decarburised ones), but I just can't think of any reason for anyone to want to claim something is WS2 when it's actually WS1..., so I guess it IS WS2, but it's just so darn hard!!!!!!! If you were told that it's WS1, you'd NEVER doubt it, I know I will NEVER!"

This grabbed my attention. So also put these at Ichiros and Kamon Kiyohisas hardness. This speaks highly of this smith's skill. As long as they're hard and decently tough I don't care if its #1 or #2. #2 would achieve Rc 65-66 just fine. Hell even western steels like 1095 can (as quenched before temper). Having the skill to HT in a charcoal forge while avoiding grain growth and having the confidence to leave the chisels at such high hardness going in contrast with the mainstream hobbyist hardnesses... I am jealous.

On the topic of the smith: "But just so you know, the smith who is working on this WS Oiire, he seems to be very old, over 80 according to the rumors, so it won't be too long at all until I won't be able to supply, it could be like next month that he'll announce his retirement, really, so if you are interested, try to get all the sizes you need, and even a back up set or two to last your craftsman lifetime. It should be totally worth it. I mean just look at the price........ If I had enough fund and space to stock, I would order 10~20 sets (of course as a seller I mean, not user, two or three sets will suffice as a user.)"

Sound's like a real old school smith like Stans... I really would be sad if he retired within the half year; another big motivation for me to make money. And start swinging my smithing hammers more...

I also ran across another thread on a place I can't link; "Anyway, about the oire-nomis I'm looking for. I know that Yoshio Usui (Sukemaru) doesn't make them himself (he used to in the past), he subcontracts them out to another blacksmith. These chisels almost as good as the later stuff from Kiyotada but at a third of the price. Very well forged white steel 1 at 65-66HRC and very tough. The same blacksmith also makes chisels for a company called Jindaiko-honpo, a wholesaler Sanjo-shi. The problem is that they don't sell directly to customers overseas. They have an exclusive agreement with a guy called Stanley Covington to handle all their overseas customers. I tried to buy them with Tenso but when they saw my non-Japanese name (or maybe they know what Tenso is) they cancelled the sale. Of course not all stores are like this so I just need to find one that sells Sukemaru white steel oire-nomis."

Could it be that Stan's guy is Yoshio's guy too? Just a thought. Would be pretty cool. The quote above is 4 months old so perhaps knowledge changed. Maybe the person above is a member of our forum. I kinda hesitated because perhaps it would be uncomfortable for the person have their anonymous ID on another forum exposed. Feel free to contact me if you want me to remove this bit.

This post is pretty unorganized and scatter brained. Add the phrase severely sleep deprived and thats me right now. I hope it's linear enough that y'all can read it. I've really liked following this thread. Does make me a little sad that Stan won't be making any more of these threads.

[Matt Lau]

I have a feeling that Jessica is a much, much better woodworker than I am.

I still need to finish setting the hoops on the Oire-Nomi Stan got for me...:(
Need to do more woodworking, and less thinking about it.


I can answer this one. Stan told me the blacksmith he works with also makes oire-nomis for Yoshio Usui (Sukemaru) and Jindaiko-honpo. My oire, atsu, usu and mokumachi nomis are all from Jindaiko-honpo. To summarise, my oire and usu-nomis are made by the blacksmith Stan works with, the one who also makes oire and usu-nomis for Yoshio Usui and Jindaiko-honpo. The atsu and mokumachi-nomis are made by Yoshio Usui himself for Jindaiko-honpo. I found there is no noticeable difference in hardness and toughness between my oire-nomis from Stan's blacksmith and Yoshio Usui's atsu and mokumachi-nomis in day to day use.

[Jessica de Boer]

I was very curious about the Sukemaru white steel 2 oire-nomis that japan-tool sells so I ordered one. I have used white steel 2 oire-nomis from Kikuhiromaru for a short time but other than that I only have experience with white steel 1 tools. I wonder how Sukemaru will hold up compared to my white steel 1 Jindaiko oire-nomis since it's made by the same blacksmith.

[Rhys Hurcombe]

If the white steel 2 kiku's are the ones that regularly come up on ebay as sets of 10 then your jindaiko's and the sukemaru ws1's will have a noticeable difference. Compared to that of say, kiku ws1's which are great, too. Just pricier.

[brian zawatsky]

A year or so ago I ordered a set of the exact Kikuhiromaru ws#2 chisels on ebay that you're talking about, Rhys. As it turned out, the USPS thought that some woodworker in Puerto Rico needed the chisels more that I did, so it sent them there instead of to me in Pennsylvania. Close but no cigar. They were insured so I was refunded, and put the money instead toward a set of ws#1 from Stan. Knowing what I now know, I don't think I would bother with ws#2. Shirogami #1 takes such a fine edge I fear I'd be disappointed by anything else.

[Jessica de Boer]

The Kikuhiromarus my husband gave me as a present are also from ebay. I immediately was very disappointed the first time I used them because prior to that I had only used my father's Ichihiros. I ended up selling them to a friend (after I bought my Jindaikos) who loves them but he has never used a very hard white steel 1 chisel so he doesn't know any better.

[Vincent Tai]

A year or so ago I ordered a set of the exact Kikuhiromaru ws#2 chisels on ebay that you're talking about, Rhys. As it turned out, the USPS thought that some woodworker in Puerto Rico needed the chisels more that I did, so it sent them there instead of to me in Pennsylvania. Close but no cigar. They were insured so I was refunded, and put the money instead toward a set of ws#1 from Stan. Knowing what I now know, I don't think I would bother with ws#2. Shirogami #1 takes such a fine edge I fear I'd be disappointed by anything else.

This has been an interesting thread for me especially with the talk turning into a look at WS#1 vs 2. The number that Hitachi gives for white steel #1 is something like 1.4 - 1.2% carbon. For WS#2 it is 1.2 - 1.0% carbon. All batches of steels have variance, and this is no different anywhere in the world. In the States some particular batches of W1 are prized and there is always that "old stock" stuff in Japan that is said to be better. That last one without specs I won't bother to even be inclined to believe but I wonder if with the skill of this smith that's working for Sukemaru, and a 1.2% carbon batch of WS#2 he is pulling off something close to the white steel #1, certainly something that would seem just like a WS#1 tool made by another smith who might be more lax about time, temp, positions in fire, fire control etc. There is also the whole aspect of WS#1 is only going to be sharper if you leave it in that higher Rc realm. With a 1.2% carbon batch of WS#2 then you could be pulling the same results as many other great WS#1 chisels.

All that being said I think there is a certain bit of overhype about WS#1 etc. To the point of sheer mysticism and fetishization. The smith is far more important. Give Stan's smith a nice piece of 1095 or W1 and the guy could probably produce a better chisel than some other smiths working with #1 or #2. Since the smith for these WS#2 is the same as Stans or is at least someone that Yoshio Usui trusts making chisels under his brand name then thats a big factor.

[Matt Lau]

I was abusing my Stan chisels Saturday night on a knot that I cringed to see....no edge damage!
This thing was wicked sharp, and sharpens nice!

[Matt Lau]

Oh, and Jessica, if you haven't gotten a gennou from Stan, you're missing out.

I got one from him, and use it on my chisels.
Feels really great!
Also, it has an uncanny ability to transfer the intent with a minimum of shock...somehow without damaging my handles.

[Jessica de Boer]

My dad has several gennous and I've used them as well but somehow it still feels wrong to me to hit a chisel with a wooden handle with a metal hammer. I'm sticking with my wooden mallet.

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with Matt, gennou is the way I prefer. The handle makes all the difference.

[Matt Lau]

Jessica, join the dark side!

All joking aside, you owe it to yourself to use a nice hand forged gennou.
According to Stan, your work looks professional level (I've never seen your pictures).

[Jessica de Boer]

According to Stan, your work looks professional level (I've never seen your pictures).
That could be because I actually am a professional ;) And I just posted some pictures: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?268714-Some-stuff-I-made-for-a-boat&p=2859285#post2859285

[Brian Holcombe]

Beautiful work! Professional work is within your wheelhouse :D