Ironwood Machinery - Any experience?

[Mike Waddell]

Good evening, Creekers -

I've purchased a few SCM machines in the past for the shop, but my distributor informed me that they are no longer carrying SCM. He recommended that I look at Ironwood (repped by Stiles Machinery in the U.S.) instead. He said he can still get SCM if I truly want the Sandya 1 S wide belt I've been drooling over, but said that Ironwood compares favorably to SCM in the wide belt arena. I have no experience with Ironwood at all.

Does anyone have any experience with Ironwood products? I see on their Facebook page that they have been spotted in a Woodcraft store; not sure what that means.

Thanks in advance for any guidance and experience you have.

Thank you,

Mike

[David Kumm]

I've only seen them at shows but they are well made, usually at the same factory as Cantek. I think Taiwan rather than China. Dave

[Gregory Stahl]

Talk to a Stiles rep and see what they can do for a Butfering. The Butfering 37" was not much more than SCMI machines. I bought a Butfering 43" a year and a half ago from Stiles. They included on site setup and training for the same price I was quoted with SCMI for just the machine. The Butfering is built much heavier than my former SCMI widebelt.

I have an Ironwood SLRS that I picked up at a great price, just a few years old. It is like many other asian rip saws, just painted Ironwood. Most of the Ironwood line is this way. Stiles has great support and parts availability though.

I still like SCMI for classic woodworking machines.

Greg Stahl

[Martin Wasner]

I'll sell you a 43" dual head widebelt cheap. It's got almost no hours on it.

[Peter Kelly]

Stiles is a bit more B2B sales oriented so you might post the same question to the Woodweb Cabinetmaking or Architectural Woodwork forums.


http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/cabinetmaking.pl

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/aw.pl

If you can wait a few months to buy, you'd likely be able to see the machine and others in-person at IWF 2016. http://www.iwfatlanta.com

[Mike Waddell]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. Martin, sent you a private message.

I will definitely be attending IWF, so maybe you are right, Peter. Would be good to see all the options at the same time.

Best,

Mike

[Gregory Stahl]

I would sill contact Stiles--they can show you the Ironwood and the Butfering. I'll post some pics of my Butfering later this week when I have some time.

My Stiles rep said they don't take many smaller machines to IWF since the economic downturn. At a show like IWF, they are really pushing for the big sales. You will probably see a wide belt, but it will likely be multiple heads and a $60k or better machine from Butfering, in addition to a $200k or better machine from their premium brand. My rep said he focuses on the small guy--they often develop into great repeat customers.

You may be surprised how well they treat you--I certainly was!

[Erik Loza]

There were a number of Ironwood machines in the Stiles booth in Vegas last year. Knowing that, I'd be surprised if they didn't bring them to Atlanta this year.

Erik

[Peter Kelly]

Think I need to schedule a meeting at one of my exhibit vendor's shops in Atlanta sometime between August 24th - 27th. :cool:

[Mike Waddell]

Thank you Greg, Erik and Peter.

Greg if you can post pics that would be great. What thoughts do you have on the Butfering? Anything you DON'T like about it? What would make it better?

Mike

[Gregory Stahl]

I'll be home in a couple days and will post a review with pictures.

I knew as soon as I opened the doors the Butfering was my machine. It is very heavily built and the build quality is very nice. The components used are top-notch. Siemens motor, high end electronics, etc. Made in Germany. Parts are easily available and can be had overnight if needed. Stiles even offers 24/7 tech support, granted there is a small charge for calling in at odd hours. I have two German machines now. The manuals for both are superb--nothing like any other manuals I have ever received! They are binders with good pictures, diagrams and explanations. They include cds with digital copies too!

I am not saying the SCMI is a bad sander. I just think the Butfering is a great sander for the price and I am extremely happy with mine. SCMI does not have a good presence in my area, so I am a bit concerned buying a machine that may need service someday.

Another brand to check out is Biesse. They are getting very popular in commercial shops for their great service and good prices. Some of the shops around here swear by them for their CNC machines. I have not seen their wide belts, but I see shops are buying them. I expect the pricing to be lower than Butfering. Some of their machines are built around the globe, like India, but they are an Italian company.

Greg

[Martin Wasner]

Thank you Greg, Erik and Peter.

Greg if you can post pics that would be great. What thoughts do you have on the Butfering? Anything you DON'T like about it? What would make it better?

Mike


I will say that the shop next door has a Butfering, and it seems to be in a constant state of repair. I will also say that I think they abuse it.

[Erik Loza]

Honestly, you can't go wrong with any of the legit European-made WB's. I can only speak to SCM, of course, but most of the shops I know that have them, have no issues. Gregory is correct: It boils down to the service. It could be the best sander in the world but if it goes down and you don't have anyone to call, then it's not the best sander in the world, anymore, right? I don't sell widebelts (or larger edgebanders, as another example) because they really need a tech to set them up properly and if there is a parts or service needs, a local dealer should be available to handle that. With Classical machinery, the guy can usually repair it or troubleshoot on site, himself.

Erik

[peter gagliardi]

Well, I have an SCM machine, and have for about 18 years now, it is the 37" Uno single head with platen. It has been an ok machine. I have experienced random tracking issues, and failure to start issues, but the biggest issue, and reason i will not look to them again is the belt feed issues i started having about a year and a half after buying it new in '97 i think.
The feedbelt they use/d is junk. It hardened up, and lost consistent grip. No amount of checking, roller pressure adjusting, or feedbelt sanding would fix it. I tried EVERYTHING i could think of, or others suggested. I looked into getting a new Timesaver style/brand of belt, but with a machine worth only $6-7000 on the street, it wouldnt pay to put the +/-$2500 into it for a new one.

I FINALLY am getting satisfactory feed from it, thanks to getting desparate, and a can of 3M 77 spray contact adhesive. I ran the belt, and sprayed it with a reasonably uniform coat of the contact adhesive, and VOILA! Works like a charm. If i hadnt done that, i was ready to push it out the door, and off the dock!

Other than that it has only needed one bearing in all that time, it was just a fight constantly to get good results without stalling mid piece.

I know several shops who have the Butfering, and they all love the machine, so, someday, that will be our upgrade.
I hope to get to IWF this year, maybe.

[Peter Kelly]

Timesavers USA-made widebelts are worth a look too. http://www.timesaversinc.com/content/wide-belt

[Mike Waddell]

Greg,

What size Butfering do you have? Which SCM machine were you comparing it to?

[Gregory Stahl]

I looked at the Sandya 1 and the Sandya 300. The Butfering 37" was less than $1000 more than the Sandya 1, and it is a significant upgrade with electronics and heavier mass.

I purchased the Butfering 43", I believe the model is 114C. I paid about $5000 more than the Sandya 1 quote I have ( I get good fairly good prices having purchased about a half dozen SCMI machines already), but this included a larger machine, shipping and on-site setup, so the cost difference was less.

The 43" Butfering weighs in over 3000-lbs vs the 1500-lbs of the Sandya 1. I don't know what the Sandya 300 comes in at as it is not included on the spec sheet I have.




Greg,

What size Butfering do you have? Which SCM machine were you comparing it to?

[Martin Wasner]

How many HP? The first head on my Apex is a 25hp head, and it seems adequate for most things. The second head is 20hp, and it pulls harder than I'd like on bigger things. Full width passes need some care in how much material I'm removing.

My Apex is 5000# as a point of reference as well. I looked at a dual head SCM, went with the Apex because they are based an hour from the shop. As was mentioned before, parts and tech availability are huge factors when purchasing any tool. The internet has made that stuff so much easier, but the closer the better.

[David Kumm]

I have an early 2000s Sandya 5 which is a closer comparable. The Sandya 1 is a lighter duty machine. There used to be a WB service guy who posted here, Chris Peterson, comprehensiverepair.com if I'm remembering right. He gave me some advice on machines. It's not bad to contact a few service companies and get their take. There are some things that aren't difficult to deal with, but also lots can go wrong where you need a service tech. Some machines are easier to work on than others. I'd talk to a couple, also to find out what bells and whistles are important, and which just complicate life. Dave

[Gregory Stahl]

I know it has been a while for this thread, but I made it down to Stiles Manufacturing Seminar this past week and had a quick minute to grab pictures of the Ironwood wide belt they had onsite--it was not part of the seminar.

The feed belt is very thin, similar to Grizzly, Timesaver or other asian imports. Didn't really look in more detail than that or what you see in the pictures.

No matter what I do I cannot get the pics to stay rotated, sorry for making you turn your head.

Greg


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[Rick Fisher]

I have an older SCM Sandya Win.. I get that problem where the feed belt had gone hard and product slips on it . I might try that 3M-77 idea.. or look for something that will soften it.

Looking at that Ironwood picture ( Sideways :) ) .. I would want to see the feed belt in person.

Having owned one, the biggest issues to me in buying a wide belt sander would be;

How hard is it to change belts.
Feed Belt quality and softness. Will it stay soft long term, how long will it last. ( Mine is the grey waffle )
Rollers for long goods. Mine is really a cabinet door sander and has no support in the way of nylon rollers. I would want those ..

[Gregory Stahl]

I have an older SCM Sandya Win.. I get that problem where the feed belt had gone hard and product slips on it .

This happens often in production environments. We call it "dressing the belt" We do this by slowly raising the feed belt into the sanding head. Run the feed belt as fast as it will go. Use a coarse grit and take a light pass off the belt. This can be messy, but it is common. You will have to disable any limit switches you have. I would not try this with the asian thin belts.

Greg

[Rick Fisher]

Awesome, glad to know that ..