Electric 4-way switch - I'm stumped

[Mike Berrevoets]

I'm in the middle of a remodel job on our house. (Yes, I pulled permits) The main floor is nearly gutted and I took out the bulkhead in the old kitchen. in that bulkhead was a 14/2 wire that is hanging below the joists. I need to pull that wire, run it through the joists and reconnect it so we can drywall. The wire goes to the second floor hallway and I believe it goes to the switch for the hall light. I pulled the switch out and the wire in question has the white connected and the ground connected but the black wire is not connected to anything. Is this some kind of strange thing with a 4 way switch? I can't find where that cable terminates on the other end yet. It goes into the ceiling of the one room I haven't demolished and I'd rather not keep chasing this thing.

House was was built in 1975.

I'm stumped. Why would the black not be connected to anything?

[Lee Schierer]

A four way switch would have three or four wires plus a ground connected to it, if properly wired, depending on where it sits in the circuit. Your switch appears to be wired so the ground is being used for the neutral or hot which is dangerous. Get a voltage detector to see which wire is hot. You can also connect a circuit tracer that will help trace the circuit. When all else fails, hire an electrician (no offense intended) since you don't appear to know a lot about wiring.331100

[Mike Berrevoets]

A little clarification.

In the box with the mystery cable: (I'm going off memory from last night)
-One 14/2 with white and black connected to the travelers on the switch.
-One 14/3 with red and black connected to the other two terminals on the switch.
-One 14/2 (mystery cable) with the white connected to the white of the 14/3. Black not connected to anything.
-All grounds are wired together and pigtailed to the switch.

Everything functions as expected with the switches doing what they are supposed to do.

Lee - no offense taking at advice to call an electrician. I've done quite a bit of my own wiring that has been properly inspected on both this house and the last. I'm decent at running my own stuff, researching the codes and asking the inspector questions ahead of time so I get what they require. But, I admit that when I run into something unusual I can get stumped like I am now. There was some other unexpected stuff in this house. Strange, illogical cable routing, multibranch wire circuits, etc that caused some head scratching for me.

At this point im just looking for some ideas on what might be going on with this thing. Then I can do some more demo to expose wires and make it right. Half the house is torn up anyways. If I can't figure it out ill call in a pro.

[Gary Yoder]

I'm curious what is going one as well. Two scenarios come to my mind, #1 someone ran a wire somewhere for a "future" need (but why would you connect any wires at that point?), or #2 did somone pull power from one leg of a 220 circuit and need to connect a white somewhere? Sounds like wiring my dad would do! :D I guess you could unhook the white and see what stops working??

[Lee Schierer]

Can you post some photos of what you are seeing?? If that switch with only the ground and white connected actually controls something you have a problem. When part of my house was wired, instead of buying three conductor wire for a three way circuit, they used the ground wire as the runner. It might be that someone did a similar thing in your situation. In no case should the ground lead ever be used for a current carrying member of a circuit.

[Tom M King]

Sometimes the switch leg, and the leg to the light are in the same box. It's easiest, same as 3-way, when those come in opposite ends like the attachment in post #2. Draw a diagram to help figure it out. Google should find pictures of all variations.

[Jim Koepke]

To my way of thinking the easiest answer to this is the person who did the wiring in the past didn't know what they were doing and the OP may have a wiring mess on their hands.

Sometimes, to get it done right, it is easier to take it all out and start over.

jtk

[David L Morse]

My first guess would be that someone ran out of 14/3 and both of those 14/2 cables end up at one of the three way switches with black wire unconnected in that box too. Open both of the three ways and take a peek.

[paul cottingham]

When part of my house was wired, instead of buying three conductor wire for a three way circuit, they used the ground wire as the runner.

Seriously? Holy cow.

in our basement, we had two circuits joined together in a couple of ceiling boxes stacked together (on top of one another, i crap you not) and wired together, sharing neutrals and (gulp) hots. When we disconnected all the wires and reconnected them correctly, the stairway light stopped working. When we fixed that, the shop lights stopped working, and nothing we tried could make it work (one of the people who tried was an electrician.) My FIL plays rugby with a fellow who troubleshoots electrical for the Navy, and it took him 2 hours to figure it out.

Sometimes you just have to bring in the big boys.

[David L Morse]

My second guess is that during a previous remodel the 4way was originally a single pole. The 14/2 with both wires connected was a feed and the other 14/2 went to the load. The feed was difficult to replace with 14/3 so it was repurposed as travelers with the third wire taking a different route through the load to try to make as much use as possible out of already installed cable.

[Mike Berrevoets]

I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow when I can turn off the breaker and pull all 3 switches and the light fixture.

[John K Jordan]

Don't trust anything you don't do or check yourself! Even if done by a "professional" electrician. (Sorry, electricians) I have too many examples to even list.

When we moved into this house and the light wiring was all messed up in one room. One 4-gang box with three 3-way switches connected to other 3 and 4-way switches and two of them not working properly.

I mapped what was hot on each switch when flipped each way then I turned off the power, disconnected wires as needed and mapped EVERY wire with a continuity tester. Made a big truth table and figured out where the hungover electrician went wrong back in '88. I made a complete wiring diagram. Everything is right now. Also had to figure out another mystery switch that did nothing elsewhere in the house.

When the electricians finished wiring my sister's new house there was one short end of romex hanging out of a hole high on a wall. It was hot. My other sister had two hot wires from two separate breakers feeding the same 3-way lighting circuit. Cut the breaker and the circuit was still hot! I have even more horror stories, residential and industrial.

The bottom line: I would absolutely without a doubt unfailingly and precisely determine EXACTLY where each wire came from and went before I did anything. If your case was mine I would make a complete wiring diagram of what is there then analyze it to see if it makes sense.

JKJ

[Clint Baxter]

My first guess would be that someone ran out of 14/3 and both of those 14/2 cables end up at one of the three way switches with black wire unconnected in that box too. Open both of the three ways and take a peek.

This would be my first guess as well. Let us know if you find a box with a three way switch that has three 14/2 coming into it with a black wire unconnected. Hopefully that unused black wire has the ends capped off with wire nuts or tape.

Eager to see the rest of the story.

Clint

[Ole Anderson]

I had a similar problem with a 4 way switch and finally gave up and called in sparky. Another time I was stumped and called him in, he made some suggestions, at no charge. I finally traced that one to a neutral wire that had pulled out of a wire nut up in the attic (after tearing up drywall thinking we had punched a nail into a neutral while installing siding).

[Peter Stahl]

I redid some wiring in my daughters house and some of the stuff they did was strange. You never know what you'll find in a house new or old.

[Mike Berrevoets]

I've got pictures now and I'm more confused then ever....

First picture of the older 4 way switch shows the mystery black wire heading off to the right. 14/2 from top attached to the travelers. 14/3 from the top with black and red attached to the commons and white going to the white of the mystery cable.
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Second switch pic is top of the stairs. A 3 way switch. No mystery cable in the box.
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Third pic is the light fixture. Nothing unusual in this box.
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Fourth picture is the last switch. This is bottom of the stairs. The switch that controls the light is the middle of the three switches. The other two switches control other lights on the circuit. No mystery cable in this box.
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I guess i was expecting to see the mystery cable somewhere in one of the other boxes with the black just hanging in space. Thinking they used the white to complete the neutral.

I pulled the white wire off in the first box and now the light doesn't work so it is needed. It is heading towards another box with three switches in it but those are on a different circuit. Or, the wire is heading for the main panel but it is definately on the same circuit because it goes dead when I turn off the breaker. So it's not tied into a different circuit.

im stumped. I need to relocate this wire. I can cut in the wall, pull the wire, run it through the joists and reconnect the way it was for the last 40 years. But, it bothers me that I can't figure out what is going on.....

[Jim Koepke]

Do you have a volt meter?

Have you checked this wire for voltage or continuity to ground?

jtk

[Peter Stahl]

I'm not a electrician but here is my 2 cents.

First picture, 4-Way switch: The Black & White wires at the top of the 4-Way switch are attached to the travelers from the middle 3-Way switch in the last picture. The Red & Black are the travelers going to the other 3-Way. The bottom cables (14/3 or is it 12/3) is also tied to a neutral that was brought into this box from another source that’s why the black isn’t being used. There has to be a outlet or junction box somewhere with the white tied into and the black wire just hanging out.

Second picture, 3-Way switch: Top 2 wires on the 3-Way switch are the Travelers. The bottom black wire on the black screw is the hot wire going to the light. The black wire is a 14/2 (or 12/2) going to the light and the white from the 4-Way box that has the black in limbo are tired together for the neutral the light needs.

Third picture: Black & white wires are coming from the second picture 3-Way switch.

The Last picture with the 3 way switch in the middle has a red wire coming from a wire nut that ties the other switches and the main hot that feeds all three switches. The Black & White wires at the top of the 3-Way are the travelers going to the 4-Way switch.

If it were my house I would turn off the power then take the wire nut off the group of red wires and the one black that are twisted together and separate them. Next I would turn the power on and see if the Black is the main hot. If it is then there should not be any power at the other 2 switches. Looks like it was wired by a home owner not a licensed electrician.

[Peter Stahl]

On 3-Way switches the 2 gold color are usually the travelers and the Black screw is the hot (either the feed or going to the light or fan). 4-Way switches are the go between and all 4 screws are travelers and the 2 brass screws attach the travelers from one 3-Way and the other 2 screws attach the other 3-Way. See Lee's picture in his reply. You would normally run the neutral from the first 3-Way to the 4-Way then to the last 3-Way switch then to the light but it looks like they did something a little unorthodox. In the last picture the 3rd switch to the right which is a 3-Way, it looks like they did way you should wire it.

After all of this to simply answer your question the White was used just for the Neutral and they also used the ground. Black wire shouldn't be hot as the hot was brought in at the box with the 3 switches. Switches only disconnect the hot wire so a could have gone directly to the light/fan. Grounds need to be connected to all switches, lights and fans. There are a lot of YouTube videos on wiring switches.

[David L Morse]

I think Peter's description of the circuit connections is correct.

I do have a comment on his reply:

... Black wire shouldn't be hot as the hot was brought in at the box with the 3 switches. ...
I agree that the Black wire SHOULDN'T be hot but until you know the terminus of the cable you can't be sure that it won't be sometime. Even if you check it with a meter you don't know if it's connected to a switch that just happens to be off.

As Peter pointed out that cable is probably going to yet another box to pick up a neutral connection. You said:

... It is heading towards another box with three switches in it but those are on a different circuit. Or, the wire is heading for the main panel but it is definately on the same circuit because it goes dead when I turn off the breaker. So it's not tied into a different circuit. ...
Neutrals are not associated with any particular breaker. They are usually bundled in a cable with a hot wire but for a circuit to work any old neutral will do. They all connect to the same bus bar at the panel. If it looks like it's going to a particular box then by all means open that box and look. Of course you might not find a dangling Black there; it could be connected to something. You might have to open the neutral bundle in that box and see if your light goes out.

[Jim Koepke]

There has to be a outlet or junction box somewhere with the white tied into and the black wire just hanging out.

The bad part of this is it may be hidden inside of a wall or ceiling somewhere. I am not an electrician, but I am not sure if code allows this.

jtk

[David L Morse]

The bad part of this is it may be hidden inside of a wall or ceiling somewhere. I am not an electrician, but I am not sure if code allows this.

jtk


The extra wire isn't a problem. It's having one neutral carry the current for more than one circuit. You could exceed the ampacity of the common neutral wire.

Of course a junction box can never be hidden.

[Tom M King]

Shared neutrals are a problem with arc-fault breakers too.

[Mike Berrevoets]

Ok. Got my immediate problem solved at least.

The wire I had to relocate through the joists actually went to a junction box above the switch in question where it connected to another 14/2 that I think went down into the box with the odd wiring. Found this by disconnecting some things and tugging on cables. Pulled that wire out ran a new wire and made the junction in a junction box. Everything is up in the joists so it can be drywalled.

Still not entirely sure what is going on with the mystery black wire but I put a wire nut on it and closed everything back up for the time being. It all works correctly and has been for 40 years so a little while longer should be ok. I'll find an electrician to trouble shoot it when I have a chance. The parts of the house I've demoed have no hidden junctions so I'm not covering anything up that isn't too code. Maybe I'll ask the inspector at the rough in inspection. I'm guessing they have seen some odd things like this.

interesting find.... The last picture with the three switches has the original inspection sticker in it. Passed. :)

[Tony Zona]

Am I the only one who thinks troubleshooting puzzling and potentially dangerous wiring from a million miles away is extremely risky for both the forum poster and the homeowner?

Also, would any professional electrician who would jump into this thread be taking on a huge liability?

[Peter Stahl]

Am I the only one who thinks troubleshooting puzzling and potentially dangerous wiring from a million miles away is extremely risky for both the forum poster and the homeowner?

Also, would any professional electrician who would jump into this thread be taking on a huge liability?

I didn't see anyone here tell him how to rewire it, we gave our opinion what we thought was going on. He also mentioned he was doing legal local inspections. I doubt a licensed electrician tell him what he needs to do.

[Mike Berrevoets]

Am I the only one who thinks troubleshooting puzzling and potentially dangerous wiring from a million miles away is extremely risky for both the forum poster and the homeowner?

Also, would any professional electrician who would jump into this thread be taking on a huge liability?

Like Peter said, I was asking for opinions on what might be going on to give me some ideas of what to look for. Not necessarily what to do to fix the issue. I'm still responsible for making the changes as the permit is under my name and it is my house. Besides, I doubt the inspector will accept the excuse of "some random guys on the Internet told me to do it this way" :)

I appreciate the help given so far. I will fully disclose what work I have done to the inspector because it's my house and I want it to be right for the safety of my family. Granted, maybe some people wouldn't do that and then I could see your concern.

[Julie Moriarty]

As someone who learned the trade installing conduit systems (even in residential), this is an excellent example why those of us who do electrical installations with conduit think romex is a joke. Yet the majority of residences in the US are wired with what is essentially extension cords. I don't care what the NEC says, romex is a joke.

Had this installation been done in conduit, there would have been color-coded wires that would have been easily identified. With conduit, you don't see white wires used as current-carrying conductors. You don't see a white and a black and a red terminated together. And a whole bunch of other things that I, and pretty much every electrician I've ever worked with, consider flat out wrong and potentially dangerous.

Mike, I have said before here that a woodworker's forum is not the place to ask for electrical help. But even if you go to Mike Holt's website and get some good advice from the electricians who populate the forum, you still may not understand the little inner workings of how electricity does what it does and what actually works and what doesn't. Even inspectors don't take the time to check to make sure everything is done right, and some don't even know what to look for.

I suggest you hire a qualified electrician to give you and your family some peace of mind.

[Peter Stahl]

As someone who learned the trade installing conduit systems (even in residential), this is an excellent example why those of us who do electrical installations with conduit think romex is a joke. Yet the majority of residences in the US are wired with what is essentially extension cords. I don't care what the NEC says, romex is a joke.

Had this installation been done in conduit, there would have been color-coded wires that would have been easily identified. With conduit, you don't see white wires used as current-carrying conductors. You don't see a white and a black and a red terminated together. And a whole bunch of other things that I, and pretty much every electrician I've ever worked with, consider flat out wrong and potentially dangerous.

Mike, I have said before here that a woodworker's forum is not the place to ask for electrical help. But even if you go to Mike Holt's website and get some good advice from the electricians who populate the forum, you still may not understand the little inner workings of how electricity does what it does and what actually works and what doesn't. Even inspectors don't take the time to check to make sure everything is done right, and some don't even know what to look for.

I suggest you hire a qualified electrician to give you and your family some peace of mind.

Not trying to start a fight or debate but I don't ever see conduit being used in residential. I am surprised in most areas the home owner is allowed to do their own with a inspection & permits of course. I can do my own electric but not my plumbing work, go figure. If who ever did this mess that Mike has on his hands would have used the right wire (14/3 or 12/3 don't know the circuit amperage) then he wouldn't have a mystery wire. I have at least five of these 3 gang boxes like Mike but the electrician that did my house used the right cables and I think all of them the power comes into these boxes then goes out to lights and switches. I think I pulled most of these covers off to put a dimmer switch in. I don't have a problem with romex (poor mans extension cord. (sorry Julie I couldn't resist)) but I do with the push in holes in the back of receptacles & switches. I also prefer to use metal boxes than the plastic ones. Any doubt, call a professional is also great advise.

[Julie Moriarty]

The most common problem with romex systems, Peter, comes with conductor identification. With conduit, the electrician has a wide array of different colored wires to use to make that identification clear. I've been on jobs where we used pink and purple wires. With systems that require isolated neutrals, we will use a white wire with colored stripe. The whole idea is to avoid crossing wires. It is possible for a system to appear to work but electrically, it can be a mess.

I haven't done service work on many romex-wired houses but when I have, I never see any attempt to identify the conductors. If you have to use a white wire for a switch leg, mark each end with tape or a wire tag. It takes more time initially, but it's worth it, IMHO. I just bought a house in Florida and it's all romex. Outside of what I think of romex, I'd rate the installation about a 4 out of 10. It's obvious the intent was get it done as fast as possible, get your money and leave. And that's part of why romex came into being - it's cheap and easy to install. But after the installation, it's costly to troubleshoot or modify, if you do it right.

You could say I am spoiled only installing and working on conduit systems. It is far superior to romex, even if it's plastic conduit. Yet I know the vast majority of homes are wired with romex and if the homeowner never touches the wiring, chances are there will never be a problem. But how often do really you see that?

On another note, the problem with trying to trace out a problem online is anyone trying to help has to rely on a person who can't figure it out on their own and who you have to ask to do certain tests the questioner may not be qualified to do. Then you have to hope the test was done correctly and that the results of the test are properly conveyed. Someone who wants to run a circuit from their panel to their workshop is an easy thing to explain online. Someone who is tracing out a problem is a whole 'nother animal.

[John K Jordan]

...romex-wired houses... I never see any attempt to identify the conductors. If you have to use a white wire for a switch leg, mark each end with tape or a wire tag.

I like to use liquid tape for this, available in a variety of colors, black, red, etc.
http://www.amazon.com/Gardner-Bender-LTR-400-Liquid-Electrical/dp/B000M5PM0G/ref=sr_1_15