New Engraver - Old Epilog or New Chinese?

[Adam Less]

I've been reading everything I can on this and other forums for a few weeks now, trying to learn everything I can and take in all the opinions, views and recommendations.

Quick background. I'm a designer, have owned several businesses and have been in the marketing/advertising industry for 30 years. I am also fairly tech savvy and have done more than my fair share of sales (including media sales) so I have no issues with selling. My wife is an administrator and experienced business manager. Today, I run a consultancy but have been looking for a few years for something new to do. Ideally a sideline that allows me to roll up my sleeves and do something more tactile. I also want to do something that allows me to 'make' and 'sell' things other than just service.

I want something that utilizes my skills and my wife's (as she'll likely join me to some extent in this). We're not looking at running a storefront gift engraving business. What we are considering is (starting off small - ie. basement) running a small engraving b2b engraving business. I have MANY relationships (current and former businesses) that range from small local retailers to national chains. I am also heavily involved in the sports industry and have many connections to organizations from youth sports to the pro leagues.

My initial idea has been to purchase something small; something we can play around with, do some small jobs on (R & I) and maybe create a few of our own creations. Basically, test market the idea. I have some opportunity, given a lack of competition in my particular town, to secure a few small jobs. I DO NOT want to finance anything and I also don't want to wind up with a $20k-$30k investment only to find it's something that doesn't fit for us. I'm pretty sure it will, but who knows. I would like a machine that I can get into under $10k and if a year from now, I need to expand or change my capacity/quality, I can always either sell the machine or keep it and purchase (or maybe at that time finance) a newer, bigger machine.

I am not looking engrave long excerpts fro the Constitution in 1pt type on precious diamonds - In other words, right now, I don't need a Rolls Royce just to get me to the grocery store and back.

With all that said, I have explored and studied up on every laser company I can find from the Redsails, Weike's, Thunderlasers, etc to the US companies like Rabbit and FSL. I've looked into Epilog, Trotec, Universal, etc, even Xenetech and Gravograph. I've even checked out the Glowforge. I obviously don't know nearly as much as you guys, but I'd like to think in these initial stages I've at least done a fairly good amount of research.

I'm fairly certain I need a 40w-60w unit, 18" - 24" up to 20" x 30". I have to get it through doorways so I can only go so big on the actual machine size anyway at this stage. I know I need the standard air assist, chiller (if I'm going water cooled), auto focus (don't need it but want it) and I will likely get a 1.5" lens as well for some finer work. Vacuum tabel and stuff like that is great but not absolutely necessary in my book for what I'll be doing. I am ok with 32 bit as I have a dedicated PC that I can happily run an older version of Windows on. I'm hoping to be creating everything in Illustrator on Mac (or CorelDraw), saving as an *.ai file and exporting over to the PC and whatever software the laser requires me to use for prepping and send to 'print'.

So, all this brings me to my question. I have the option to purchase an Epilog 32EX, Epilog 24tt or a Weike 6040N. the 6040N would be landed half the price of the Epilogs and new and warrantied. Both Epilogs will have been professionally gone through and brought up to spec. What I want to know is opinions as to which is better. My thoughts are:

Weike
PROS
I like a) the idea of getting a 'new' machine b) getting a machine with the most recent tech (albeit it cheaper Chinese tech) and c) saving about $5k. For what I can land the machine for, I can always sell it and get most of my money back on. And frankly, even if I can't, for how cheaply I can get it here, it can be a hobby tool for myself, my wife and our kids if all else fails.

CONS
I could face damage in shipping, though I've heard good things about Weike and so far have really liked their customer support. I am getting a chinese system (stepper vs servo motors to start) and therefore lower quality right off the bat. Then again, I don't plan on any super high end work anyway, at least not initially and don't plan on doing much raster 'photos on wood/glass' type stuff.

Epilog 24tt
PROS
I like it's an Epilog. It's cheaper than the 32. I like that it's air cooled (less headache), better laser (from what I've read), servo motor and out-of-thebox compatible with Illustrator (PC not Mac of course). I can pick it up locally and get trained on it if needed (though frankly it doesn't seem like rocket science)

CONS
Old model (12 years), only 32 bit older Windows compatible. Smaller work area. Basically I'd be sacrificing size getting the 24tt over the Weike 6040N and paying twice the price. No real warranty (6 mos)

Epilog 32EX

PROS
All the above with the 24tt (though it would be about $1,500 more). It has a 20" x 30" work area. The machine itself is as large as I can go to actually get it into my basement.

CONS
Same as above, plus an additional $1,500.

So, what are your thoughts, alternative suggestions, etc.? ALL help is appreciated!

[Rich Harman]

I wouldn't like the idea of getting a 12 year old Epilog. It may be just fine, but I'd be uncomfortable. Since it sounds like you want to primarily do engraving I would get a Trotec. Probably double what you want to spend but if it does not work out you can resell it just like the others and be no worse off. If it does work out you will have the Ferrari of laser engravers and it will last you a long time, while making you more money than any of the others - and outputting the best possible quality. Not that an Epilog could not match the quality, but it can't match the speed. A new Epilog would be my second choice.

If I had to choose between an old Epilog and a new Chinese machine that was half the price, I'd choose the Chinese machine.

[Adam Less]

Thanks Rich. I totally get it, and yes, had I the cash to buy a new Speedy 300, I certainly would. And I won't finance.

My goal is not really to ask what everyone would suggest getting, as I know I'll have lots of different Universal, Trotec and Universal cases made.

I need to make a decision on the basis of my reality which I described.

I should also add that I don't intend to have a lot of 'volume' jobs and I'm not in need of making a certain income from this. It's really a sideline and something I'm hoping we can build over time, starting small.

My concern, and you've touched on it is, is it a fair trade off to go with an older machine of it means getting the quality of Epilog even if it's not ideal. I guess maybe a better question is what do I lose if I go with a Weike ? How much lower is the quality of the end product? Is the quality so bad the end product is unusable? Or is the quality difference tolerable?

[Mike Null]

I can't think of any circumstances where i would buy a Chinese made co2 machine. Especially if it's the machine that's going to produce my living. I've been using a Trotec for 9 years and it's incredible. One of the things you may be overlooking is the residual value of such a machine. If things don't work out you'll get a much higher percentage of your purchase price on a Trotec than on a Chinese machine. In other words, the risk isn't as high as you might think.

It's well known that Chinese machines cut rather well but their engraving is generally not up to the standard you'll need to pursue the work that I believe you're targeting.

I would also have a hard time justifying the purchase of a 12 year old Epilog.

There is a very important trade show coming up in early March in Las Vegas. This is an engraver's show and you could learn a lot about the business by attending. http://awardspersonalization.org/default.aspx

[Matt McCoy]

What do you mean by "professionally gone through and brought up to spec"?

Does Epilog still support these machines?

[Adam Less]

Thank you again for the responses and again, I get it. A new Trotec is the way to go. Got it. I'm really hoping (and why I came on here) is not to get more advice on the 'best' machine to buy. I've read all the various threads and heard all the pitches for Trotec, Universal and Epilog and their NEW machines.

What I'm looking ingredients for are opinions re the choice I posed - 12 year old 32ex vs new Weike 6040.

And again, I am NOT making my 'living' on this. I have a successful consultancy. I'm merely looking at dipping my toe in the pool to see if this is something we might want to build on the side.

Eventually, maybe it does turn into something I transition into. For now, my livelihood isn't relying on it.

So. I really appreciate all the knowledge on here, but I'm looking for specific input to help me make a decision between the two choices I've narrowed it down to. Or, conversely, an alternative, but only if it fits my criteria. I know spending $15k+ on a new US machine is the best choice. That's not feasible for me. So....

One question I will ask us why do you think an older Epilog is no good? Assuming it has a new laser, let's say. Why not go with an older model?

[Scott Shepherd]

Thank you again for the responses and again, I get it. A new Trotec is the way to go. Got it. I'm really hoping (and why I came on here) is not to get more advice on the 'best' machine to buy. I've read all the various threads and heard all the pitches for Trotec, Universal and Epilog and their NEW machines.

What I'm looking ingredients for are opinions re the choice I posed - 12 year old 32ex vs new Weike 6040.

And again, I am NOT making my 'living' on this. I have a successful consultancy. I'm merely looking at dipping my toe in the pool to see if this is something we might want to build on the side.

Eventually, maybe it does turn into something I transition into. For now, my livelihood isn't relying on it.

So. I really appreciate all the knowledge on here, but I'm looking for specific input to help me make a decision between the two choices I've narrowed it down to. Or, conversely, an alternative, but only if it fits my criteria. I know spending $15k+ on a new US machine is the best choice. That's not feasible for me. So....

One question I will ask us why do you think an older Epilog is no good? Assuming it has a new laser, let's say. Why not go with an older model?

No one said you had to buy a $30,000 new Trotec. Trotec, Universal, and Epilog all offer entry level models in your budget area.

People say to stay away from the 12 year old laser because technology changes and you can't update some of it. Often times you can end up with a machine that is stuck in legacy software or that might have bugs in the driver and they don't support it any more, so you are forced to live with a buggy driver, etc. When the electronics go (and do some searching on the forum for Epilog motherboard), you'll have a doorstop instead of a laser because you might not be able to buy parts for it. With all the brand name machines, I'd say you'll find the most electronic failures to reside in Epilog's based on the number of times people ask for help and have that diagnoses.

It's not my money, so I don't care what you do, but if it were my money, I'd be looking at the entry level machines from the big 3. You'll find superior support (and you WILL need it at some point), and superior machines compared to what you've listed as the option.

Just my opinion.

I've seen many lasers, brand name, sell for $10,000 or less that were fantastic bargains. Every so often, someone posts one in the classified section here.

[Glen Monaghan]

The problem with your thread is that no one but you can really assess for you the importance and value of the various factors. We can all give our opinions but they likely aren't right for you and your situation. One person will say he's uncomfortable buying an older Epilog, but another will tell you that most of those Epilogs are incredibly rugged/long-lasting and offer incredible value for the quality and convenience (same thing if you ask someone about buying a used car... some people are scared witless that they'll overpay and get someone else's lemon or, at best, a once-decent vehicle that's about to need possibly expensive maintenance, while other people carefully research and buy quality pre-owned vehicles for bargain prices, laughing themselves silly at the tools who throw a lot of good money away on new cars that lose $$$ the moment they're driven off the lot). Another person will say she wouldn't touch a water-cooled Chinese laser with poorly translated documentation, inferior software, and questionable support, but another will tell you that it's crazy to pay the huge premium for a Western machine because the Western machines don't offer enough in return and the Chinese machines are simple enough that any reasonably intelligent person can figure them out. There are pretty vocal members of every camp here, so you'll get all the angles, and then you'll still just have to decide based on your own criteria and gut feeling...

[Adam Less]

Thanks Glen.

You're right of course. I guess I'm just looking for insights re those two options. Again, I read the reply above yours and I have contacted the 'big' 3 and haven't found any in my price range, unless I want to go down to a lower wattage laser and a 12x18 work area, which simply won't be sufficient. Hence the two choices available.

I agree with your analogy and yes, I knew coming on here there would be both camps - the never buy Chinese at any cost and the never waste your money buying the Cadillac just to get features you don't really 'need', buy Chinese! - that's where I thought the used Epilog may be a compromise. It is a unit coning from Epilog itself, so they will have gone through it thoroughly.

That said, I am starting to sway away from the old model option and more towards the Chinese option. Weike does seem to get more positive reviews on here that many other Chinese alternatives.

[Nicolas Silva]

I have a 15 year old ULS which has performed flawlessly in a 6-8 hour per day schedule. You say you've researched the different lasers - have you taken note of which ones are constantly here under the "my xyz laser is broke and ....." category? I love my ULS (it ain't chinese) but I have always thought well of Epilog (it ain't chinese either) so you can guess where my vote would go. cheers!

[Kev Williams]

When I bought my first laser I had zero experience. In fact, I didn't know about DC 'glass' lasers until a few years ago...

So, when I bought my first laser in 2002, I just wanted a laser. Which of course I bought from my NH rep as I had every other machine. What I bought was his 5 year old demo machine, a 25 watt New Hermes "Optima", which is a Universal machine. He dragged this machine all over the country for 5 years before I bought it. I've used it daily for 13 years, and just last week my BIL finally took it home, where it spends 5 hours a night engraving wood boxes.

It has worked nearly flawlessly. I've replaced 3 items on it: the X belt, the X stepper, and the tube. The tube didn't even need changing, I was able to get a replacement at a good price, so I changed it out. That was about 6 years ago. The stepper didn't need changing either, turns out I had it mounted crooked when changing the belt and it put stress on shaft and made a noise. So now I have a spare...

I've since bought my LS900 in 2004, my chinese Triumph in 2014, and last year I bought Gary's 10 year old GCC Explorer.

I've had great service from all of them.

NOW- as for a first machine, I would heartily recommend ANY RF "metal" (aka "Western") laser machine over any DC "glass" machine. A few reasons: First, the learning curve, and this is a biggie IMO. Learning to run a metal laser is like learning to drive a BMW, while learning to run a glass laser is like learning to drive a 1965 Peterbilt. It took me a couple of days to get comfortable with my first laser. But after 2+ years with the Triumph I'm still trying to figure out things like what numbers to enter in "curve discrete" and the best backlash settings for running at 200mm/sec, etc etc... All that stuff is pretty much automatic with a metal laser, and that results in much less stress and frustration.

Second, the way a DC laser fires (Sheldrake can explain better than me!) compared to an RF laser can create issues with certain jobs. In short, I've found there are certain jobs not suitable for a glass laser, but a metal laser can do anything a glass laser can do, at least in my experience.

And then there's longevity. While my Triumph has been dependable and has already paid for itself several times over, I'm not expecting to get anywhere near the service life out of it. But who knows, it may surprise me! My 3 metal lasers are 19, 12 and 11 years old, still make me a living, and show no signs of stopping. Fixing them is more spendy, but still a bargain. However, one con to old machines is available parts...

Buy a used metal machine, learn to use it, then consider a glass machine as a second.
That's my http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/2cents.gif

[Gary Hair]

I agree wholeheartedly with Kev. Metal anything is better than any glass tube machine. The main reason I bought a Speedy 400 was because I needed the deduction, otherwise I would have kept using the GCC til it died - which might have been quite a while. The mechanics of the machine were almost as good as new and the driver, although 11 years old, works perfectly! There are features in newer drivers that are really useful but there isn't really much that the GCC couldn't do for me. So, would I buy an older machine vs a glass tube? Absolutely! Make sure you check out the buyer, there are a few "shady" used machine sellers out there and you are taking a big risk. Find someone who wanted to "test the waters" like you do and are selling a fairly new, mostly unused, machine - there are lots out there...

[Brian Leavitt]

I'd go with the older Epilog machine. My oldest machine (X2-600) is still my best as far as reliability and engraving quality. Just because it's "old" doesn't mean it's bad. Heck, the newest car I own is a 1987 model and all my cars (1966, 1986, & 1987) have always been more reliable than the last car my wife bought (2007) before her current car! Not that that translates directly to lasers, but I'm just saying new is not always better...

[Scott Shepherd]

Well, you started off by saying you wanted something small. That's why I mentioned the Trotec Rayjet, Universal Versa, or the Epilog Zing. I see that later in your thread, you mentioned a much larger dimension that the smaller units. All 3 of the lasers I listed are less than $10,000. However, none are 60W and none have a table as large as you want.

Here's an example of a reasonable thing to consider...

Go to ebay and enter :

X-660-Universal-Laser-Engraver-50-Watt-with-Air-Assist

[John Noell]

Having started on an Epilog (for business) and now using a Chinese machine (mostly as a hobby), I would NOT suggest starting with Chinese if you want to dive right in and get a feel for making it a business. Once you learn the "Chinese process" they are quite usable. But the Epilog made it easy to concentrate on the designs and products, instead of tracking down weird issues. Any of them should do what you want, and the fact that many people here use each type should tell you that you really cannot go wrong (unless you get a lemon and that can happen with any brand).

[Bert Kemp]

OP has stated he's wants a co2 glass tube to start in a budget range under 10 ,.
Looking at what your looking to do and future an old Epilog is not the way to go. IMHO a new decent Chinese machine will server you well. You can get a Rabbit Laser in an 60 watt tube 600x400 mm table 9 in z axis with USA support and training . for well under 10 K the machine comes apart to fit thru doorways ect ect . Also Thunder Laser, Boss Laser and Automation Tech have similar machines in your price range, But Rabbit is proabaly the better.

[Keith Winter]

From the options you've presented a 12 year old Epilog or a G Weike machine there doesn't appear to be much different, one is not clearly better than the other for a new engraver. If you are only willing to consider those two options it's a dice roll one over the other. In my opinion having US support is key for a new laser engraver. Either one if they break you will be up the creek. G Weike will warranty for a year, but good luck getting tech support beyond the basics or someone to help you while you learn the machine. The old laser won't have any warranty or any tech support. So in either case you will be without a company to help you when you have all of those new user questions that arise.

For what you're wanting to do, you might listen to the others and consider what they are saying. Spending $20k on a new Trotec might be worth it. That money you spend on the G Weike won't have any residual value. If you want to "upgrade" a year later as you said, you'll be selling it for pennies on the dollar. Another thing is it sounds like you're space constrained. Chinese lasers are rather massive compared to US lasers. If space really is that big of concern then you might have to rethink your whole plan if you go Chinese and go with a Chinese with a smaller bed than you anticipated.


Thanks Glen.

You're right of course. I guess I'm just looking for insights re those two options. Again, I read the reply above yours and I have contacted the 'big' 3 and haven't found any in my price range, unless I want to go down to a lower wattage laser and a 12x18 work area, which simply won't be sufficient. Hence the two choices available.

I agree with your analogy and yes, I knew coming on here there would be both camps - the never buy Chinese at any cost and the never waste your money buying the Cadillac just to get features you don't really 'need', buy Chinese! - that's where I thought the used Epilog may be a compromise. It is a unit coning from Epilog itself, so they will have gone through it thoroughly.

That said, I am starting to sway away from the old model option and more towards the Chinese option. Weike does seem to get more positive reviews on here that many other Chinese alternatives.

[Bill George]

I have an older ULS machine that was rebuilt by the dealer and it had a warranty. Cost was a little less than 1/2 the cost of a new machine. No issues other than learning curve, the one question I did have that was handled. My GWeike machine had a few issues, but I am experanced enough to do my own repairs. It needed the tube replaced at only 4 months.
If your Eplilog dealer will help you get started and if the software you need will work on a XP computer I would consider it. Sure it's nice to have a new $30,000 Trotec machine, but I did what you will do, pay cash. I owe nothing as its paid for. Taking out a 2nd mortgage on your house to finance a start up is scary.

[Adam Less]

I have an older ULS machine that was rebuilt by the dealer and it had a warranty. Cost was a little less than 1/2 the cost of a new machine. No issues other than learning curve, the one question I did have that was handled. My GWeike machine had a few issues, but I am experanced enough to do my own repairs. It needed the tube replaced at only 4 months.
If your Eplilog dealer will help you get started and if the software you need will work on a XP computer I would consider it. Sure it's nice to have a new $30,000 Trotec machine, but I did what you will do, pay cash. I owe nothing as its paid for. Taking out a 2nd mortgage on your house to finance a start up is scary.

Here here.

Exactly my point. If after a few months it turns out I enjoy working on it. Maybe I've done a few little jobs and can see the opportunity to take on a few more, maybe I keep going, if the machine I have will work for me, or I get out of it (even if I lose $2k selling it, whatever entry level machine I buy will lose $2k) and then maybe, if it looks like I can make the revenue to support it, and I've cut my teeth for a few months gaining some experience, then I would consider financing a new machine and diving in more fully. Maybe I even keep my original machine as a hobby unit for my kids or as a back up.

I'm pretty tech savvy and handy with tools. I'm not scared off by a little skunkworks adventuring here and there, especially if it saves me a few thousand dollars, gets me in and is not something I'm relying on for my livelihood.

I tend to still be leaning towards the weike which will come in at about $5k less than the old Epilog. That's a wide buffer for fixing... Even if I need a new glass tube or even two... Still way less $$$.

[Clark Pace]

I figure I must be the only one who thinks you can run a business on a Chinese Laser as I do, and have for a few years. I must stress I have owned two ULS machines in my life and so I'm aware of how good a machine they are, but 25k can be a little steep for some people. So I would say a chinese machine would be fine to start out. But if you have any worries get a chinese machine supported by a USA company. There are few that have been recommended here.

The plus is you may owe less or even perhaps own a machine out-right and not have any debt.

One other option that would be to lease a US machine if you want to get your feet wet, have support, and see if laser engraving is really for you.

Good Luck

[Scott Marquez]

Buying a $20,00-$30,000 machine is a heck of a bite for someone that is just getting into the industry. There are other expenses beside just the machine, air scrubber, design software, and a computer to name a few.
If you start with a Chinese machine your engraving might be slower but it may not be important since you won't be doing long production runs, if you happen to land a huge job you can always sub out the laser time, using the art that you provide. At this point you are so new that you really don't know what you want, a year down the road you will know what jobs make you money and what machine you will "need" to do the job most efficiently.
I have no regrets with the machine that I purchased for the work I need it to do.
Scott

[Robert Tepper]

You are getting great advice and opinions from many knowledgeable people.

You can get a Trotec Rayjet for 19K and if you mention you are a member of SMC, they will knock off an additional 2K.

My Rayjet 300 has a 17 x 29" table with 80 watts of power. It is an entry level machine, does not have Job Pro software. Mine has been running for almost 4 years and I can honestly say that it has paid for itself 8 times over.

Whatever you purchase, the best of luck to you in your new adventure. I would not purchase a 12 year old machine because technology has changed and I don't know how much longer you will be able to get parts or support for it.

Robert

[Scott Shepherd]

I tend to still be leaning towards the weike which will come in at about $5k less than the old Epilog. That's a wide buffer for fixing... Even if I need a new glass tube or even two... Still way less $$$.

You seem to be stuck on 2 options, a 12 year old Epilog and a new Weike. There are MANY other options that you SHOULD be considering.

Clark, you aren't the only person that thinks you can run a business from a Chinese laser. It's all relative to the work you do. Can you do it? With the right work, certainly. I've told the story for years, but I'll repeat the heart of the story, a Chinese machine will not do what we need it to do for 2 of our largest customers. It simply won't. The limitations of the Chinese machine fit right into the specifications of our customers items. If you had these customers, then you wouldn't be able to do their work with the Chinese machines. That's not an opinion, that's a fact and has been supported by a number of tries by us to have them replicated on Chinese equipment over the years.

Does that mean it won't work for you? Absolutely not. However, it's something that is overlooked when people say "I'd never spend $25,000 when I could spend $5,000 and do the same thing". That's just not an accurate statement. I'm not suggesting you feel that way, but it is repeated by some, often. It might fit your work all day, but that doesn't mean it fits everyone's work.

If we replaced our brand name lasers with Chinese lasers, we would have lost over $100,000 in revenue, easily.

There are many options out there for less than $10,000. If I had to chose between a 12 year old Epilog and a new Weike, I think I'd keep looking until I found a better fit. I've seen like new machines with less than 100 hours on them sell for less than $10,000 many times.

[Jerome Stanek]

You seem to be stuck on 2 options, a 12 year old Epilog and a new Weike. There are MANY other options that you SHOULD be considering.

Clark, you aren't the only person that thinks you can run a business from a Chinese laser. It's all relative to the work you do. Can you do it? With the right work, certainly. I've told the story for years, but I'll repeat the heart of the story, a Chinese machine will not do what we need it to do for 2 of our largest customers. It simply won't. The limitations of the Chinese machine fit right into the specifications of our customers items. If you had these customers, then you wouldn't be able to do their work with the Chinese machines. That's not an opinion, that's a fact and has been supported by a number of tries by us to have them replicated on Chinese equipment over the years.

Does that mean it won't work for you? Absolutely not. However, it's something that is overlooked when people say "I'd never spend $25,000 when I could spend $5,000 and do the same thing". That's just not an accurate statement. I'm not suggesting you feel that way, but it is repeated by some, often. It might fit your work all day, but that doesn't mean it fits everyone's work.

If we replaced our brand name lasers with Chinese lasers, we would have lost over $100,000 in revenue, easily.

There are many options out there for less than $10,000. If I had to chose between a 12 year old Epilog and a new Weike, I think I'd keep looking until I found a better fit. I've seen like new machines with less than 100 hours on them sell for less than $10,000 many times.

My 2 major customers only need cutting so I opted for a Chinese laser over a Trotec. I went to a show and had each cut a sample of my material and the Chinese did the job as good as any other one.

[Bill Cunningham]

Been running my Epilog 24TT since 2004. Replaced 1 Tube, 1 Mirror, 1 ribbon cable and a X-motor. All the rest including the 2" lens is original. I do have a spare lens, x-motor, on hand just in case.. The machine has worked well, and I have no idea how many hours are on, it but it's lots. If the TT is cheap enough, Epilog still supports them, as far as parts. However they are a 32 bit driver. I just upgraded my 10 year old computer with a new i7 running Win7Pro (horrible compared to XP) and had to get the 32 bit op system to satisfy the TT driver. I don't know how much longer I will stay in business (I'm 69 now) so I will cross the bridge on a new machine if and when this one goes down, and can't be fixed.. Like I said, if it's cheap enough, it will get you in the door with a reliable machine that can be replaced at a later date if business warrants it. Also, I'm not sure what you intend to do with it, but I can probably count (without taking off my socks) the number of jobs I had to turn down because the table wasn't big enough. On the left side of the TT you can cut a 5.5" hole, fit it with a door to seal the hole and do longer items like baseball bats and paddles... It's old, but don't sell it short..

[Scott Shepherd]

My 2 major customers only need cutting so I opted for a Chinese laser over a Trotec. I went to a show and had each cut a sample of my material and the Chinese did the job as good as any other one.

That's exactly my point! What works for you, doesn't work for me, what works for me, doesn't work for you, and that's all based on what your product/customer requirements are, and none of us know that information in this case, so it's impossible to say one is right and one is wrong.

If all I did was cut, I'd own multiple Chinese machines. In fact, we have one customer's products that are only cutting and we've repeatedly talked about moving it over to Chinese machines, however, we're out of space at this location, so it's no need to pursue it.

[Clark Pace]

That's exactly my point! What works for you, doesn't work for me, what works for me, doesn't work for you, and that's all based on what your product/customer requirements are, and none of us know that information in this case, so it's impossible to say one is right and one is wrong.

If all I did was cut, I'd own multiple Chinese machines. In fact, we have one customer's products that are only cutting and we've repeatedly talked about moving it over to Chinese machines, however, we're out of space at this location, so it's no need to pursue it.

I understand the limitations of Chinese lasers. Believe me. That is not my point. My point is when someone here says you can't run a business on a USA alternative laser it is not correct. Making a blatant statement like that is silly. Or course there are projects that can't be done on certain laser, but can be done on others.

That is all I am saying.

[Scott Shepherd]

I understand the limitations of Chinese lasers. Believe me. That is not my point. My point is when someone here says you can't run a business on a USA alternative laser it is not correct. Making a blatant statement like that is silly. Or course there are projects that can't be done on certain laser, but can be done on others.

That is all I am saying.

I agree with you 100%! Several times over the years we have bought Chinese equipment, used it to enter a market, then used the money made from it to upgrade to nicer machines down the road. Most everything we have bought has paid for itself in months.

[Rich Harman]

When I first got my laser I put a post up here showing the results of engraving the Aztec calendar - the same one that Epilog sends out as samples. It is clear to me that a Chinese machine can match the quality of a western machine. However, out-of-the-box, I'd bet that a western machine will be better. It's the tweaking, the attention to detail that is lacking at the Chinese factories that makes the difference.

I never aspired to be an "engraver", I was looking to cut. The western machines have very little advantage over Chinese when it comes to cutting. But if I were to pursue engraving I'd be looking at a Trotec.

If you are mechanically inclined, don't mind tweaking things, then you shouldn't have much problem with a Chinese machine.

Here are the pictures. The Epilog one is done on red alder, mine was on MDF.

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[Adam Less]

I agree with you 100%! Several times over the years we have bought Chinese equipment, used it to enter a market, then used the money made from it to upgrade to nicer machines down the road. Most everything we have bought has paid for itself in months.

This was exactly my point and really where I was going. I hear others say "hey, just sucks it up, get a more expensive, newer machine and it will pay for itself with no headache.". I get that but I don't have the cash available to buy a machine like that. I also don't plan on having any volume jobs or a large number of jobs.

I'd like to start, tinkering a bit, take on a few little jobs through my own network of clients and organizations with which I work, and feel things out.

If after a few months to a year this little side business seems like a great fit (in other words, I enjoy it, it fits my skills and I can see real opportunities to generate business) then yes, of course, I put my little Chinese laser over to the side, use it as a back up or hobby machine and then maybe bite the bullet and buy a more expensive, newer Trotec or Epilog, or maybe even, if the revenue looks potentially positive enough, I even finance a new one.

Again, I already have a successful consultancy which I'll continue. I'm not life or death reliant on the jobs I'll get in. If I have to pass on a job or two, fine. Over time I'll figure out what work is out there, what jobs I WANT to take on, and I'll respond by upgrading as I need to.

Having read everything here, my sense is the used Epilog tt would work fine though be older tech and maybe not quite up to snuff. I worry about suddenly being hit with an expensive part to replace. And I hate having close to $10k tied up in the machine, still needing to pay money for other stuff, supplies, etc.

While I don't doubt a Weike machine will come with some headaches, it doesn't sound like their duds. I've read more than a few reviews from people who are happy with them and are able to function with small businesses using them. For less than half the cost, it sounds more like the risk I'm willing to take.

Thanks for all the input.

[Glen Monaghan]

my sense is the used Epilog tt would work fine though be older tech and maybe not quite up to snuff. I worry about suddenly being hit with an expensive part to replace. And I hate having close to $10k tied up in the machine, still needing to pay money for other stuff, supplies, etc.


A good Epilog TT won't be as fast as a Trotec and you won't be able to get it with as big a bed or source as you could get with a Chinese machine, but its older tech isn't much of a detraction against either of those alternatives. IIRC you said it was 12 years old, in which case close to $10K seems way too high a price even with new tube and optics. Depending on condition and recent history, I'd be negotiating to a price more in the $5-6K range, 7 tops, or I'd be looking elsewhere.