Ouch--Getting Saw Stop

[Ed Gibbons]

Spent some time in the ER and ended up seeing a hand surgeon. Just nicked the tip of my finger. Didn't look pretty but prognosis is good. Surgeon said that most table saw injuries happen after years of operation. Rookies are more focused but experienced woodworkers become too comfortable. I fit that profile. I was lucky this time but in the future I don't want depend on luck.

Any feedback you Saw Stop guys can give would be appreciated.

Ed

[Richard Shaefer]

Spent some time in the ER and ended up seeing a hand surgeon. Just nicked the tip of my finger. Didn't look pretty but prognosis is good. Surgeon said that most table saw injuries happen after years of operation. Rookies are more focused but experienced woodworkers become too comfortable. I fit that profile. I was lucky this time but in the future I don't want depend on luck.

Any feedback you Saw Stop guys can give would be appreciated.

Ed



boy, are you opening a can of worms on this forum.

I had an incident a few years back with a jointer. Been using one every day for 15 years, no worries. stupid me didn't think about the knot in the board I was jointing. the know exploded when it hit the blades, board jumped up, my knee-jerk reaction was to push the board back down and my fingers ended up right in the cutterhead. Minor injuries to three fingers, and some scaring for the memories, but three months of wiping my butt with the wrong hand and 'war stories' from the plastic surgeon who put my fingers back together pretty much ended any arguments for me. the insurance company paid many thousands of dollars to put me back together. I could have done far more damage on the table saw. easy argument for me.

Besides that, it's a great table saw. I don't think anyone has ever said much bad about it, and I love mine. And if you're married, a saw that can't chop off your fingers is an easy sell to the wife, regardless of the price.

[Dan Schmidt]

I went through this decision process recently, and decided on a sliding table saw instead of a SS ICS. Take a deep look before you decide.

Dan

[Larry Frank]

There will be the typical responses to your post. Some will say that if you are experienced and pay attention you do not need one. Or that it will make you careless. I do not believe those type comments.

I have a PCS and love it. The saw is a very high quality well built saw plus the safety stuff. Customer service is top notch.

You can not go wrong with it.

I had surgery on my wrist recently and asked my surgeon the same thing. He said he has had to repair some hand that were very bad due to table saw accidents.

Good Luck with your finger.

[Clay Fails]

Ed, I upgraded from a contractor style saw to the Saw Stop ICS saw 6 years ago or so, and have been very happy with the SS. Fortunately I have not had the opportunity to find out if the flesh sensing circuitry in fact works, and I treat the saw as if the safety feature was not there.

The main reason I selected the SS was because it was the best built saw I could find in my price range at the time, and the safety feature was secondary. That may not be typical of SS buyers. I narrowed my choices down to Delta, Powermatic and SS, and after looking at all 3 up close, I decided the SS was the superior machine.

I was a bit nervous about all the electronics on the machine, fearing that some day they might fail and I'd lose use of the saw. My theory is that if that were to happen, I could remove the electronics and convert it to a conventional table saw. Hopefully I will never have to deal with that.

I agree you might want to investigate a sliding saw before making a decision.

[Rod Sheridan]

Ed, sorry to hear of your injury, glad to hear that it was relatively minor and that you're treating this as a learning experience.

If I didn't own a small Euro slider the Saw Stop would be the saw I would own.

I just find that the slider with proper work practices for me, eliminates the need of the Saw Stop, while giving me the benefit of the sliding table saw.

I have a Hammer B3 Winner, it's a saw/shaper, suggest you lok at the Hammer K3, or a MiniMax or a Felder before you commit to a Saw Stop.

Otherwise the Saw Stop is the correct choice........Hope you have a complete recovery, regards, Rod.

[glenn bradley]

PCS 3HP owner here. Quality product. Adjustment and alignment features are designed in; not just present but, actually designed to be used. I haven't had to align a thing on the saw since day one but, its easy to do. Overarm dust collection is usable but, nothing that would make or break my decision. Bies-clone fence is solid and very adjustable . I would buy it even without the safety feature.

[Marty Schlosser]

So... the question to ask now is "when are other machines - such as jointers - going to have blade stopping technology introducted?"! (I'm not really serious about this issue, I'm only tryin' to stir the pot!!)


boy, are you opening a can of worms on this forum.

I had an incident a few years back with a jointer. Been using one every day for 15 years, no worries. stupid me didn't think about the knot in the board I was jointing. the know exploded when it hit the blades, board jumped up, my knee-jerk reaction was to push the board back down and my fingers ended up right in the cutterhead. Minor injuries to three fingers, and some scaring for the memories, but three months of wiping my butt with the wrong hand and 'war stories' from the plastic surgeon who put my fingers back together pretty much ended any arguments for me. the insurance company paid many thousands of dollars to put me back together. I could have done far more damage on the table saw. easy argument for me.

Besides that, it's a great table saw. I don't think anyone has ever said much bad about it, and I love mine. And if you're married, a saw that can't chop off your fingers is an easy sell to the wife, regardless of the price.

[Mike Henderson]

I have a PCS SS and love it. I bought it as insurance against the possibility that one day I'd make a mistake.

But I agree that a good slider is equally safe. Sliders are usually physically bigger and more expensive.

Mike

[Prashun Patel]

I own one: the PCS 3hp.

If you can afford it, it's a great saw. It is a great saw for the fit and finish and performance. The safety feature is nice for the loved ones around us. To be honest, in day to day usage, the safety feature can be a MINOR nuisance: power up is not instant, it can fire if you use a metal miter fence and get careless when changing the angle or bevel of the blade (mine fired twice!). Changeover between dado and regular work requires a brake change as well. If your brake fires, you'll require a new blade and brake.

Frankly, I have a prejudice that the program/electronics may not remain robust after years of use; but that is JUST prejudice. But it does make me as vigilant as if I had a regular saw.

Ironically, all these little things go around in my head every time I fire up that saw. I think THIS is the real safety benefit of it. It makes me more conscious of what I'm doing.

And now that I think about it, I am grateful for the two firings I had on my miter fence; they amounted to a fire drill for the saw, and a reminder about the stakes.

Regarding the performance of the saw, here's what I've really liked:

the riving knife/blade guard switch over is quick and tool-less.
The guard and knife and wrenches all have convenient slots for storage on the cabinet. The side of the cabinet has a hinged cover that makes it easy to get into for clean out.
The dust collection is very good with the guard in place for everything but trimming rip cuts.
The manual, technical support, and parts quality is top notch.

My saw has been easy to set up to make accurate cuts, and it has not required re-adjustment in about 4 years.


The only reason I would not consider it is if I were on a budget.

[Robert Engel]

I'm with Marty.

Bandsaw, miter saw, jointer, scroll saw can all cut a finger off.

Buying an expensive SS will only keep you from getting hurt on ONE machine.

It all about letting your guard down.....

[Steve Wilde]

I purchased a 3hp Pcs last year and have been very happy with the saw. I was looking at a powermatic, the delta wasn't really available at the time, and decided on the SS. It is a very robust and nicely made machine, regardless of the tech built in. I do wish I had sprung for the 5Hp ICS, as the 3Hp is a little weaker compared to the 5 HP unisaw that I was used to before. I would buy another though, it's a great saw. Hopefully I never have to use the brake, but it's nice knowing it's there if something happens.
Steve

[Tom Ewell]

Had a buddy denude the back of his fingers on a 24" disc sander, he's a pro in a machine shop.
Another buddy came in with a devastating paper cut, couldn't shuffle the deck on poker night, he's an accountant.
Took the flesh off the end of my thumb setting up a ladder a couple of weeks ago
Shot a nail threw my thumb knuckle over a decade ago
My hammer does not like any of my digits on the nail holding hand, or is that the other way around.... my hammer likes my digits.
Had a pipe clamp fall 16' on my head years ago


I do like the idea of the SS technology and have no dog in this fight, but the best way to avoid injury is not to take the risk at all, find a new hobby or profession.
If you decide to continue, minimize the risk by whatever manner you prefer, if SS is one of them have at it but just be aware the risk is always there.

Just think saftey first and foremost and don't let technology like the SS allow you to do otherwise.

[Joe Bradshaw]

I have had my 3 HP PCS for 4 years now. A brief moment of in-attention and I spent some quality time in my local er. One thing to note, don't tell jokes while your er doc. is sewing your finger up. They start to laugh and the stitches come out uneven. After this mishap, my girlfriend said to get rid of my Unisaw. I agree with Prashun about becoming more aware and thinking about what I am doing.
Joe

[Al Launier]

So, whatever happened to the use of push pads? :confused:

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I LOVE my sawstop. It contains the best instructions for saw assembly (I was told by a woodcraft store owner who had assembled many saws of many brands over the years).

I would also look at sliders to see if their space and cost worked for you. Some of them (I understand) can be purchased with some nice extras. I am not fully aware of what types of cuts can be done on one and not the other, so, evaluate the cut types to be sure that you can do what you want. For example, I understand that some European saws cannot use a Dado blade. And I have not heard good things about the SawStop Sliding table saw attachment, but, I am not really informed about this.

A friend came over and he wanted an angle cut on a small piece of wood (say 7"x1.5"x1.5"). It took me a while to figure out how to cut it safely. I don't care if it is a sawstop, I was still not going to purposely put my fingers that close to the blade. I ended up attaching it to a much larger board to make the cut (double sided sticky tape).

The SawStop is a nice saw, no question about it. They have great customer service, and, you can get parts if needed.

[Richard Shaefer]

Had a buddy denude the back of his fingers on a 24" disc sander, he's a pro in a machine shop.
Another buddy came in with a devastating paper cut, couldn't shuffle the deck on poker night, he's an accountant.
Took the flesh off the end of my thumb setting up a ladder a couple of weeks ago
Shot a nail threw my thumb knuckle over a decade ago
My hammer does not like any of my digits on the nail holding hand, or is that the other way around.... my hammer likes my digits.
Had a pipe clamp fall 16' on my head years ago


I do like the idea of the SS technology and have no dog in this fight, but the best way to avoid injury is not to take the risk at all, find a new hobby or profession.
If you decide to continue, minimize the risk by whatever manner you prefer, if SS is one of them have at it but just be aware the risk is always there.

Just think saftey first and foremost and don't let technology like the SS allow you to do otherwise.


you had a pipe clamp fall 16' on your head?
that's not helping support the logic of your arguments! ;)

[Rod Sheridan]

330977


A friend came over and he wanted an angle cut on a small piece of wood (say 7"x1.5"x1.5"). It took me a while to figure out how to cut it safely. I don't care if it is a sawstop, I was still not going to purposely put my fingers that close to the blade. I ended up attaching it to a much larger board to make the cut (double sided sticky tape).

.

Hi Andrew, yes cutting small pieces is a challenge, here's a common solution for sliding saws.

It's a jig called "Fritz and Franz"

Here's a photo of mine, and a link to a video explaining how to make and use one. With a slider there's never a need to have your fingers close to the blade....Rod.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqzVglze9Nk

[Peter Aeschliman]

Buying an expensive SS will only keep you from getting hurt on ONE machine.


Yes, but it's probably the most frequently used machine, and is also the one that injures people the most. So a SS reduces risk of serious injury in your shop. It may not eliminate risk of injury, but isn't a reduction of risk a good thing?



It all about letting your guard down.....


Absolutely. I have a big nasty scar on my forehead from kickback that happened on my sawstop TS, because I'm an idiot. :) It don't solve stupid, that's for sure.

[Mike Heidrick]

Bought a 5hp SS in 2006 - It saved my thumb a year ago December 2014 due to a stupid mistake I made.

I will prob own a nice euro slider someday too but for now its the only ts I need. The SS ICS is really well built. I break down plywood sheets with a tracksaw 90% of the time or the cnc cuts out the parts I want.

[Michael Yadfar]

I'm with Marty.

Bandsaw, miter saw, jointer, scroll saw can all cut a finger off.

Buying an expensive SS will only keep you from getting hurt on ONE machine.

It all about letting your guard down.....

I agree with this myself. Maybe it's just me, but out of those four machines, the table saw is probably the tool I take the most caution to. I always have a push stick by my side, pre plan my hand positions, and never get within two inches of the blade. Of course I'm not a full time woodworker, so my case may be different. I actually had a close call with my bandsaw yesterday, I wasn't thinking and went for a piece of wood I cut off only about a half inch long with the saw running, and came within 1/16 of the blade. I'm not against Saw Stop, I will probably buy one some day, but it wouldn't make me feel much more or less safe

[Jay Nossen]

So... the question to ask now is "when are other machines - such as jointers - going to have blade stopping technology introducted?"! (I'm not really serious about this issue, I'm only tryin' to stir the pot!!)

Probably when Saw Stop decides to stop suing anyone that tries to introduce similar technology: http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/table-saws/sawstop-sues-bosch-over-reaxx-table-saw_o.aspx

I love the Saw Stop idea because I like my fingers, but most of what I've read leads me to really hate the inventor of Saw Stop (also a lawyer) for trying to force his technology (and only his technology) on every other manufacturer.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Interesting... I like it

In my case, I had to cut an angle so that on the 7" long piece of wood, I had roughly 3/8" on one end and about 1" on the other. Do you think that you can do that kind of cut with this setup? My best guess is that you can create a push portion that is angled...

I really liked how it worked to cut a single straight edge. Also, it seemed to work well with a narrow piece end wise. I am impressed. Thanks for the link!

<EDIT>

Oh, see that he does exactly that kind of cut with that jig. Nice!

[Pat Barry]

The safety feature is nice for the loved ones around us. To be honest, in day to day usage, the safety feature can be a MINOR nuisance: power up is not instant, it can fire if you use a metal miter fence and get careless when changing the angle or bevel of the blade (mine fired twice!).

Frankly, I have a prejudice that the program/electronics may not remain robust after years of use; but that is JUST prejudice. But it does make me as vigilant as if I had a regular saw.
.

When the thing fires the blade and the brake are toast, right? Doesn't the machine have a way to safely test the stop circuit to make sure it is working where it doesn't destroy the blade and or brake? Something that the operator could do on a regular basis to make sure it works as its supposed to?

[Ben Rivel]

Another 3HP PCS SS owner here. Based on all my research on current models, to me there was just no question that the SawStop PCS was the best and smartest option available. The TS still gets the most respect regarding safety of any of the other tools in the shop, but Im glad to know there is at least a little extra security there just in case.

[Richard Shaefer]

When the thing fires the blade and the brake are toast, right? Doesn't the machine have a way to safely test the stop circuit to make sure it is working where it doesn't destroy the blade and or brake? Something that the operator could do on a regular basis to make sure it works as its supposed to?

It self-tests every time as a part of the start-up sequence. that's why it takes about 5 seconds to get it going once you flip the on/off switch. Keep in mind that this is different than the start/stop switch, which works as fast as any other saw.

[Chris Hachet]

I'm with Marty.

Bandsaw, miter saw, jointer, scroll saw can all cut a finger off.

Buying an expensive SS will only keep you from getting hurt on ONE machine.

It all about letting your guard down.....

Pretty much this, actually.

[mreza Salav]

Sorry to hear about your accident.
I have a SS ICS version for about 7 years and am very glad. Very well designed/built saw regardless of the safety feature (even without that it is probably among the best cabinet saws in its class). Ideally, I'd like to have both this saw (for ripping) and a Euro-slider for everything else, which again is a safe saw.

[Scott Brandstetter]

Okay, I will chime in with only MY thoughts.

I too got hurt a few months back with my lathe. It wasn't a huge issue and all is well now. My surgeon was awesome and got me back to almost normal. On my last visit, to get the pins pulled out, we had a discussion about woodworking and how often she sees guys and gals like me. Without prompting, she told me that the table saw was the #1 issue she sees. I was intrigued and continued to listen.

Her theory was that with most other tools, she said the woodworker could pull their hand back, minimizing injury and with the table saw, it pulls your hand in and down. It really got me thinking. My accident really scared me and I haven't got back on the lathe yet. I went through each tool, thinking about what she said and although I don't think it's the only tool like that (jointer, lathe), I think because it is used so much more than other tools, her thoughts from a medical standpoint are true.

I am going to get a sawstop as soon as I can afford it. I would also replace other tools if/when this technology is applied to them.

Again, just my thoughts, from a 50 year old with over 30 years of woodworking.

[Charles P. Wright]

I've had a 3HP PCS w/ 52" rails for a year. I upgraded from a RIDGID TS3650. My wife was very insistent that I make the upgrade. I am a computer programmer, so my hands are third only to my eyes and brain as far as making a living. I'm very happy with my purchase. The saw is a joy to use, and the assembly instructions are very clear. I have the overarm dust collector and industrial mobile base with the PCS conversion kit. The mobile base is great; it uses a hydraulic jack to lift the saw and you have full freedom of motion front-to-back and side-to-side.

Initially, I thought that the startup sequence was annoyingly long, but at this point I just leave the saw ON all the time. I do wish they would have less expensive ZCIs; I haven't purchased one (except for the dado one) yet. For my old saw, it was easy to make them, because a nail and the existing screw was enough to hold everything.

I have not had the brake fire, but it is relatively cheap insurance when compared to another similar cabinet saw. Whenever my wife tells people "It won't cut off your finger." I interject that it just "Reduces the risk of some kinds of injuries."

[Ben Rivel]

I've had a 3HP PCS w/ 52" rails for a year. I upgraded from a RIDGID TS3650. My wife was very insistent that I make the upgrade. I am a computer programmer, so my hands are third only to my eyes and brain as far as making a living. I'm very happy with my purchase. The saw is a joy to use, and the assembly instructions are very clear. I have the overarm dust collector and industrial mobile base with the PCS conversion kit. The mobile base is great; it uses a hydraulic jack to lift the saw and you have full freedom of motion front-to-back and side-to-side.

Initially, I thought that the startup sequence was annoyingly long, but at this point I just leave the saw ON all the time. I do wish they would have less expensive ZCIs; I haven't purchased one (except for the dado one) yet. For my old saw, it was easy to make them, because a nail and the existing screw was enough to hold everything.

I have not had the brake fire, but it is relatively cheap insurance when compared to another similar cabinet saw. Whenever my wife tells people "It won't cut off your finger." I interject that it just "Reduces the risk of some kinds of injuries."
Nice, got the same setup except the for the 36" rails. Regarding the inserts, do yourself a favor and pick up this guy and extra inserts for that: LINK (http://www.infinitytools.com/SawStop-Table-Saw-ZCIs/products/1820/)

[Ray Newman]

“When the thingfires the blade and the brake are toast, right?”
--Pat Barry

I have read ofreports that some blades can have the teeth replaced after firing. Do believe thatI saw a similar thread to this and one poster said that Forrest replaced two orthree teeth on his Forrest Woodworker blade for a nominal charge. The brake cartridge can not be re-used.

[Tom Ewell]

you had a pipe clamp fall 16' on your head?
that's not helping support the logic of your arguments! ;)
Guys on top were using the clamp to align some walls, while they were banging around the clamp went loose and fell, I just happened to be below doing my thing and heard a 'look out', as I looked up it hit.... had a nice crescent shaped cut on the forehead and saw a few stars.
Stuff happens and the hard hat didn't help.

[Erik Loza]

....I would also look at sliders to see if their space and cost worked for you...

I don't really compete with the SS, so don't take this as gospel, but a number of customers have told me that by the time they priced out the "industrial" version of that machine, it was in the same price range as a small slider and most folks think a slider takes up more space than it actually does. Perhaps some food for thought.

Erik

[Bill Space]

Feedback? Buy one!

I do not have a Sawstop and it is very unlikely that I ever will.

But if you can afford it and feel the need to have the protection that the sawstop offers, then there is absolutely no reason not to buy one.

False trips seem to be a potential issue, but so what? It's all part of maximizing your protection from injury. Those of us who have suffered injury for whatever reason realize that the cost of damaged hardware is much less than the pain and suffering experienced when injured.

I say go for it! The fact that you're even questioning the potential purchase is proof enough that you really should buy one.

Buy it! Hummmmm....seems like I keep repeating myself....

Buy one!

Edit: just an afterthought but it seems like the consensus is that a slider is just as safe as the sawstop technology. I do not feel the need personally for a Sawstop. So I have no reason to promote that brand. But one thing I am pretty certain of is that if the worst case happens, your finger will be removed by the blade of the slider, whereas it would likely be saved by the Sawstop technology.

[Eric Anderson]

I have had the 3 hp PCS for about 4 years now. Never a single fire of the safety brake. I think true false positives are very rare. I think it fires when it is supposed to and occurs when the blade hits metal or some conductive material. I have tested very wet treated lumber and had to bypass the safety brake to keep it from firing, but it can be used in this mode and has a test mode to show if the material is too wet to cut with the safety features engaged. You do have to be aware of what you are cutting and test if in doubt, but in four years I have never tripped the brake and think the false trigger are not really false, but due to trips as designed.

[Rod Sheridan]

Edit: just an afterthought but it seems like the consensus is that a slider is just as safe as the sawstop technology. I do not feel the need personally for a Sawstop. So I have no reason to promote that brand. But one thing I am pretty certain of is that if the worst case happens, your finger will be removed by the blade of the slider, whereas it would likely be saved by the Sawstop technology.

Bill, you are correct that you can saw your finger off with a slider.

The issue however in my opinion is that we have so many injuries in North America because we don't operate table saws correctly.

The guard should never be removed from the saw, if you can't use a guard you either have the wrong guard, or are performing an operation the machine isn't designed for. Same for riving knives and splitters, they're required on all through cuts, and riving knives can be used on non through cuts often.

I like a slider because my fingers aren't near the blade, and the support and clamping for large pieces increases operator safety.

Regards, Rod.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Sawstop owner here. Love it. Great saw. I have never looked back and said "I wish I hadn't spent the money."

That said, since my purchase, I started learning more about sliders. I've written a few posts about this, but long story short, as long as you don't hand-feed your rip cuts on the slider (meaning, you use the sliding table with a jig like the Fritz and Franz one Rod posted, and your sliding table has enough stroke to do long rip cuts), I do think the slider is safer than the sawstop. Neither will cut off your fingers in this case since you either have a brake, or your hands are nowhere near the blade.

But kickback can happen on any saw. With the slider, you're standing out of the line of fire.

Even if you don't buy the kickback argument, and you call it a wash on safety, the sliding table makes the saw far more useful than a cabinet saw because it can do squaring cuts.

That said, good quality sliders are quite a bit more money.

I just raise the point to make sure you think through your decision and don't end up having the regret that I have. :) I'm happy with my PCS, don't get me wrong. But my excalibur sliding table attachment just isn't the same as a true slider.

[ken carroll]

I would not spend $3.5K on a Chinese made table saw myself BUT if it makes YOU feel more safe and keeps you in the shop then why the heck not? One will never remove the danger in physical hobbies - I've been bitten by angle grinders with strip and clean disks more times than I care to recall so it's about what makes YOU happy.
My 1946 Oliver has a riving knife and a shorty style fence, as do most old iron machines of that era,I feel quite safe on this machine despite the helicopter like growl of a 14" blade.... :-). I've always felt that kickback is a bigger danger than sliding a finger into the blade.

[Chris Padilla]

I don't really compete with the SS, so don't take this as gospel, but a number of customers have told me that by the time they priced out the "industrial" version of that machine, it was in the same price range as a small slider and most folks think a slider takes up more space than it actually does. Perhaps some food for thought.

ErikYep, this is what I found. I really hadn't considered a slider until I started digging into my ultimate SS set-up and then realized that I was in slider territory for cost! I really took a step back and a fresh look at sliders at that point. I'm not ready for a slider but if I do get another table saw, I'm almost certain it'll be a slider unless a really good SS deal falls in my lap. Until then, my 1023Z Grizzly 3 hp saw keeps on going and doing just fine.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Bill, you are correct that you can saw your finger off with a slider.

The issue however in my opinion is that we have so many injuries in North America because we don't operate table saws correctly.

The guard should never be removed from the saw, if you can't use a guard you either have the wrong guard, or are performing an operation the machine isn't designed for. Same for riving knives and splitters, they're required on all through cuts, and riving knives can be used on non through cuts often.

I like a slider because my fingers aren't near the blade, and the support and clamping for large pieces increases operator safety.

Regards, Rod.

Hmmmm?
Ron,
In high school shop I learned to properly use a tablesaw. Can you imagine a 14 year old using a huge old Rockwell 3 ph table saw that had no blade guard, no splitter, no riving knife, no instant stop technology? I've owned and operated various table saws for 40 years now and NEVER have used the accessories you claim are "required".

[Tom Ewell]

I also 'grew up' without all of these safety devices but now I like them. Don't have a SS but I have added various hold downs, a Shark Guard a new fence and dust collection to my saw.
I didn't particularly get them just for safety, more for convenience and accuracy as much as anything. I hate having to cleanup the shop, the dust collection helps with that. The hold downs help keep the stock aligned so my rips are more consistent and the Shark helps with dust collection and kickback (something I have experienced).

[Patrick Walsh]

I really really want a slider.

On the other hand i have one of the original ICS SawStop's it is wonderful machine and i have used a few very nice new and old machines.

Nice enough i dont have room for both the SawStop and a slider and i am having a hard time letting go of it.

I work with a bunch of guys that grew up in another time when a tool was just a tool. These are guys that have cut off fingers and still think a riving knife is a waste.

This is a crazy but stupid story and kinda unrealated but here i go. Recently our Bosch contractor table saw bit the dust, well 5 months ago. This saw was bad in of itself, the base was all cracked so when you hoged down a 2x4 or ripped a full sheet on it the saw would want to kick off the base. Jamimg it up against a outfeed table was the half assed answer to this probelm. So if that was not bad enough we ended up using the boss or foreman's 20 year old Makita. Now nothing wrong with this saw other than the fence sucks and again it has no riving knife and like a 10"x10" table and 6" blade.

So anyway i come in last Monday after taking the week off because im sick. First order of business is to rip some 2X4's down to pack out some walls. I ask do we have a table saw. Im told yeah but the cord broke, " no big deal just hot wire it"? I think hot wire it you gotta be kidding me just go get a new saw. Anyway the end of the cord gets cut off jamed into a extension cord and held in place with the plug of a sawzall.

Anyway i have digressed get the SawStop dont be a meat head like my co-workers!

[Tom Ewell]

Yeah, I find ripping 2x4 is best done with a circular saw and rip guide on horses, use my job site saw come trim out. Agree there are some boneheads out there.

[jack duren]

Okay, I will chime in with only MY thoughts.

I too got hurt a few months back with my lathe. It wasn't a huge issue and all is well now. My surgeon was awesome and got me back to almost normal. On my last visit, to get the pins pulled out, we had a discussion about woodworking and how often she sees guys and gals like me. Without prompting, she told me that the table saw was the #1 issue she sees. I was intrigued and continued to listen.

Her theory was that with most other tools, she said the woodworker could pull their hand back, minimizing injury and with the table saw, it pulls your hand in and down. It really got me thinking. My accident really scared me and I haven't got back on the lathe yet. I went through each tool, thinking about what she said and although I don't think it's the only tool like that (jointer, lathe), I think because it is used so much more than other tools, her thoughts from a medical standpoint are true.

I am going to get a sawstop as soon as I can afford it. I would also replace other tools if/when this technology is applied to them.

Again, just my thoughts, from a 50 year old with over 30 years of woodworking.

"Her theory was that with most other tools, she said the woodworker could pull their hand back, minimizing injury and with the table saw, it pulls your hand in and down."

Her theory is incorrect with the table saw...

[Keith Pleas]

Anyway i have digressed get the SawStop dont be a meat head like my co-workers!
I would suggest the real takeaway is upgrade your co-workers.

[Wade Lippman]

Okay, I will chime in with only MY thoughts.

I too got hurt a few months back with my lathe. It wasn't a huge issue and all is well now. My surgeon was awesome and got me back to almost normal. On my last visit, to get the pins pulled out, we had a discussion about woodworking and how often she sees guys and gals like me. Without prompting, she told me that the table saw was the #1 issue she sees. I was intrigued and continued to listen.

Her theory was that with most other tools, she said the woodworker could pull their hand back, minimizing injury and with the table saw, it pulls your hand in and down. It really got me thinking. My accident really scared me and I haven't got back on the lathe yet. I went through each tool, thinking about what she said and although I don't think it's the only tool like that (jointer, lathe), I think because it is used so much more than other tools, her thoughts from a medical standpoint are true.

I am going to get a sawstop as soon as I can afford it. I would also replace other tools if/when this technology is applied to them.

Again, just my thoughts, from a 50 year old with over 30 years of woodworking.

10 years ago I using a BS. The wood suddenly split in half and my had jumped forward 3" into the blade. Although they said I had an even chance of losing the finger tip, they were surprised at how clean the cut was; usually it is mangled. I said it was a BS, not a TS. They said that explained it.

I started using pushblocks whether the need was obvious or not; who would have expected the wood to suddenly split? And... I got a SS.
Only time I live on the edge is with a scroll saw, which I use to cut pills in half. I don't think I can get more than a superficial cut with it. Any scroll amputation stories to share?

The finger still feels funny, but I have it.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah i know simple answer really.

Sadly i stay as its a consistant reliable 52 weeks of work a year, 7-3:30 for the most part all on the books, two weeks payed vacation, a decent wage in the high 20's, 401K matching decent health insurance. And i only ever work 15 minites from home to boot. Its kinda a trap, the co-workers are a real problem. Replicating all these other factors as a tradesman is not so easy!

Hopefully at some point something better will surface with more rational and profesional co-workers...

Get the SawStop keep your fingers!

40-50 hours a week behind a death trap on a job sight and i still am willing to pay the premium for a SawStop in my own shop for mostly weekend hobby use.


I would suggest the real takeaway is upgrade your co-workers.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Wade,

thank you for sharing the story.
I'll use a push stick for all BS applications from today....

[sebastian phillips]

So, whatever happened to the use of push pads? :confused:

Exactly, simply don't put your hand near the blade. I use a push stick for anything 6" & under. I have had guys on the job rib me in some mis-guided macho fashion. A few of them have been bit...

The main thing I see in-experienced guys do is send junk (twisted, bowed, etc.) through the table saw. That is asking for, and usually results in trouble.

Also, get good side and outfeed support. I know of two guys that have been maimed reaching over the blade to grab the keeper piece as it exits the blade, and keeping it from falling to the floor....Amazingly stupid

No saw (or device) is going to replace common sense, forethought, and experience.
That said, if I had employees working in my shop, a Sawstop is the only saw I would have. A no-brainer.
I could care less about the inventor or his politics.

[BOB OLINGER]

Ed, I had a similar experience about 3 yrs. ago. I nicked my left thumb while ripping a narrow board, using a push stick with my right hand. I made the mistake of reaching too close for the ripping and my left thumb touch the blade. My experience in wood working as a hobbyest goes back about 45 yrs with minimal accidents. I was fortunate, got a few stitches but lost some feeling in my left thumb. I had the support from my wife ( she loves that I have the wood working talent) so purchased the 3 HP professional model. Bottom line, it was a simple decision aimed at eliminating potential future accidents. I can't comment on the sliders. I'm very happy with the SS and am not looking back.

[Danny Hamsley]

You could not pry my fully intact fingers away from my sawstop.

[Patrick Curry]

I had a nasty accident with my jointer in December (1st accident after years of shop work) and so I've reconsidered everything from strict use of push sticks up to a Sawstop. I've been working with an underpowered, 40 yr old hybrid TS now for a number of years and am ready for an upgrade.

Woodworking is just a hobby, and not one shared with my friends so what I've learned comes through personal experience and the Internet. There's YouTube channel (mtmwood) I enjoy from time to time and I believe the owner is Eastern European. Anyway, he uses a slider and I've found the motion/mechanics of the design to be appealing (and safe).

It sure would be nice if there were a greater selection of sliders here in the US, and I'm referring to pricing. Hammer and Minimax both look great but are a bit too rich for me. Grizzly has one closer to my price point but I don't see many reviews from users.

Seems like there would be market demand for sliders in the $2500-3500 range.

[Keith Hankins]

Glad it was not a lot worse. I Live about 45 min west of PHilly. I've had mine for a few years and love it. Never had a fire but its like an air bag its just nice to know its there if you need it. I've got the 5hp ICS. Such a great saw!

Good luck and a speedy recovery.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, look at used for sliders. Good well built ones are expensive because a slider that isn't stout doesn't hold settings. You will learn the definition of frustration if your slider doesn't keep a square cut. Used sliders are really cheap and generally all you need is a vfd to power the three phase. Dave

[Gary Cunningham]

I have the 3hp pcs. A great saw. Just be sure to put the miter gauge in the correct slot.

I goofed and ruined a Forest blade.

[keith micinski]

I would like to chime in and say that about 8 months ago I went to wipe away a piece of scrap from the table saw as the blade was still spinning down and somehow managed to stick the tip of my finger in it and ripped the end of the finger off pretty good. Never once in the following seconds did I think that I need to get a saw stop now. I thought well that was a really stupid thing to do and you probably shouldn't do that anymore.

I would also like to point out that anyone that thinks that if you have a saw stop its a guarantee that your finger won't cut off or injured you are wrong. Saw stop technology is great but that saw represents less then 1 percent of active table saws in the world. To assume there will never be a malfunction is hubris and there is something to the theory "well this saw can't ever hurt me so I don't need to practice safe saw technique." I guess my biggest gripe with saw stop guy is I have never once heard why a simple free push stick made from scrap wood won't work and to be honest with is actually a safer bet to keep all of your limbs attached.

[Keith Weber]

The best way to not cut your fingers off is to not put them near a spinning blade. A properly used and fitted slider excels at keeping your fingers away from the blade. As a bonus, it brings a lot of extra capabilities to your shop (straight line ripping, sheet goods handling, crosscut capabilities, etc...)

A number of people that have posted that they've sold their SS and switched to a slider, and many more that have stated that they settled on a SS (usually stated cost or small shop as their reasoning), but really wanted a slider. But, I have yet to read about anyone who's sold their euro slider and bought a SS. I'm just sayin'!

[Patrick Curry]

Just speaking from my own experience, the shop accident caused lost revenue since I couldnt work my self -employed desk job effectively, plus medical expenses...and it hurt.

Not all of us are as meticulous as we could be with the push sticks, safety glasses, DC, and so forth. The sawtop technology is just one of those measures. But of course everyone is free to pick and choose.

I'm keeping my eyes open for used sliders but I has some apprehension about repairing these larger pieces of equipment if it became necessary. Cabinet saws to me seem pretty simple but an industrial slider might be above my capabilities, and parts could be cost prohibitive. just a concern .

[Mike Henderson]

The best way to not cut your fingers off is to not put them near a spinning blade. A properly used and fitted slider excels at keeping your fingers away from the blade. As a bonus, it brings a lot of extra capabilities to your shop (straight line ripping, sheet goods handling, crosscut capabilities, etc...)

A number of people that have posted that they've sold their SS and switched to a slider, and many more that have stated that they settled on a SS (usually stated cost or small shop as their reasoning), but really wanted a slider. But, I have yet to read about anyone who's sold their euro slider and bought a SS.
If I had the money and the space, I'd have both a SawStop and a slider. But space is a real problem (well, money is also a problem) so I stick with my PCS SS and a track saw.

Mike

[Roy Harding]

I worked on a SS when I was in trade school. If I were in the market for a cabinet saw, it would be high on my list of probables, less for the safety feature than for the fine workmanship evident in the rest of the saw. I found it to be a solid, robust, and capable saw - comparable to any saw in its class.

As things worked out when I set up my shop, I went with a Felder combo machine, slider/shape/jointer/planer and don't have a cabinet saw, nor a need for one. BUT, should a need for one ever arise, SS would definitely get a close look (to clarify - it would be in ADDITION to my existing slider, not a replacement for it.)

[William C Rogers]

I bought the PCS SawStop. No injury or anything, just wanted to replace my 1980s Jet cabinet saw. I thought about a slider, however I have never seen one and was unsure if I would really like it. Also a slider was more money than the PCS. I made my decision because the consequences are enormous compared to the cost. I hope I never have to test the feature, but know even doing everything right something unexpected could happen. I have no second thoughts buying the SawStop.

[mreza Salav]

The best way to not cut your fingers off is to not put them near a spinning blade. A properly used and fitted slider excels at keeping your fingers away from the blade. As a bonus, it brings a lot of extra capabilities to your shop (straight line ripping, sheet goods handling, crosscut capabilities, etc...)

A number of people that have posted that they've sold their SS and switched to a slider, and many more that have stated that they settled on a SS (usually stated cost or small shop as their reasoning), but really wanted a slider. But, I have yet to read about anyone who's sold their euro slider and bought a SS. I'm just sayin'!

There are some peoople on this board that sold their SS and got a slider and now they regret. Sliders are very good in many aspects but if you still want to do traditional ripping (say narrow stock) from what I have learned they are not any safer than a cabinet saw. Yes, you can do straight line rips or make all sorts of jigs but there are situations that you simply have to do a traditional rip.
If I had the space and money I would have both.

[Nicholas Carey]

When the thing fires the blade and the brake are toast, right? Doesn't the machine have a way to safely test the stop circuit to make sure it is working where it doesn't destroy the blade and or brake? Something that the operator could do on a regular basis to make sure it works as its supposed to?

the brake is toast because it suicides as it stops the saw blade. The spinning saw blade has a LOT of kinetic energy. Stopping the blade involves absorbing that kinetic energy and converting it into something else. Sawstop accomplishes that by, doing the following:

- triggering a strong spring mechanism to retract the blade below the table.
- firing an aluminum block into the blade to stop its rotation.

All this happens in a few thousandths of a second.

the blade is usually toast because the heat produced in stopping the blade that quickly usually welds the blade to the aluminum block. Here's a video from a high-speed tracking camera to demonstrate:


http://youtu.be/dQ0GXXAYF3s

[Erik Loza]

There are some peoople on this board that sold their SS and got a slider and now they regret. Sliders are very good in many aspects but if you still want to do traditional ripping (say narrow stock) from what I have learned they are not any safer than a cabinet saw. Yes, you can do straight line rips or make all sorts of jigs but there are situations that you simply have to do a traditional rip.
If I had the space and money I would have both.

I sell as many sliders as anyone and have never personally spoken to a customer who told me that they regretted moving up from a cabinet saw to a slider but I have had a number of shops hang onto their cabinet saw once the slider arrived, and continue to use both. For dados, for example. Even though most Minimax sliders will dado, a lot of shops don't want to reset the ccrosscut fence each time they need to do that, so they just keep the slider set up for case work and the cabinet saw, for dados. This may be a non-issue for hobbyists, though.

When a customer calls me to inquire about a sliding table saw, the very first question I ask them is, "How much sheet goods do you do?". If the answer is that they are just a hobby guy who wants to mostly build furniture and solid wood projects, I would prefer to have them buy a bigger bandsaw than spend the money on a slider. Or, the cabinet saw would be fine for him. If the guy, however, says, "I want to build a kitchen", then we continue to talk about the slider.

A common scenario is that the customer hears about a slider but perhaps is new to ww'ing and doesn't really have a clear picture of which machines will handle their particular work most efficiently. Just doing research, that type of thing. My personal opinion is that unless you plan to do any significant amount of sheet goods, you don't need a slider. You're better off with a regular cabinet saw, good bandsaw, and jointer/planer combo. That being said, I personally wouldn't spend anywhere near $5K for a regular cabinet saw, regardless of what safety features it had. If I was going to spend close to $5K, I would just get a slider instead. There's no compromise in going "up" to slider. In other words, why spend 90% of the price of a 3/4-ton truck just to get a half-ton truck? If I need a half-ton truck, there are plenty of good options at the half-ton price point. Or, if I'm going to spend 3/4-ton money, I might as well get the 3/4 ton after all, right? Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Erik, I'll agree with your take, except to say that a good quality short stroke slider is ideal for a furniture maker. They are not common anymore but a short stroke does everything a fixed table saw does and much more. I wish someone built a good quality 36-40" stroke true slider. It might take some time, but I think the market would find it. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

I
When a customer calls me to inquire about a sliding table saw, the very first question I ask them is, "How much sheet goods do you do?". If the answer is that they are just a hobby guy who wants to mostly build furniture and solid wood projects, I would prefer to have them buy a bigger bandsaw than spend the money on a slider. Or, the cabinet saw would be fine for him. If the guy, however, says, "I want to build a kitchen", then we continue to talk about the slider.

Erik

Hi Erik, I would disagree with that.

I am a hobby user who makes solid wood furniture, very little sheet goods.

I have a small slider with a scoring saw.

My daughter recently completed a dining room table for herself, in red oak. Michelle doesn't weigh 120 pounds with a brick in each hand, yet she was able to crosscut the top for her table with 2 fingers type of effort.

I find the same thing, cutting a top or gable out of solid wood, the outrigger holds it up and it's perfectly square. I'm nearing retirement and aren't as strong or agile as I was, the slider really improves my safety when working with solid wood, no more trying to juggle a heavy panel or long timber.

If I need infeed and outfeed tables the clip on tables do that for me, then I put them back on the wall where they don't get in my way, just like the outrigger.

My small saw (49") with outrigger is the ideal machine for solid wood, far better than any cabinet saw, I know, that's why my General 650 has a new home and I have a slider.......Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

Guys, it's all about "if's" for me. My feeling is that "if" someone wants a slider, it must at least be able to square a 48" panel. Otherwise, you just have a cabinet saw all over again, except that you spent slider $$$, not cabinet saw $$$. Assuming we are talking about buying new, not used. Or, maybe you already have a cabinet saw and read about sliders, but maybe only have a cabinet saw budget, not a slider budget. So, one option would be to buy a new slider with some short table, like 36", but for slider prices and which really does the same thing that your cabinet saw with a sled already does. "If" that is the case, then my advice is going to be to upgrade the bandsaw, first. Because every person I seem to have this conversation with (and it's the same conversation, over and over again...) never has a big bandsaw. It's always some 14" unit that they are fighting with.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that small (>48") sliders have their value for furniture making: When I worked for Felder, Yeung Chan was a customer of ours. He had a CF741 combo with a 48" slider (the only customer for either company I've worked for who vulontarily chose the shortest slider possible on a 16" combo machine; practically unheard-of...) and used that thing exclusively for making drawers, chair legs, and small boxes. Again, virtually unheard-of. But, Yeung didn't pay "small sliding table saw price" to be able to do that. He paid "16-inch combo price". So, the point I am getting at is that "if" someone wants to make an upgrade to their solid wood machining ability and "if" they only want the best machine to do that with, are they better off spending slider prices for a regular cabinet saw or regular cabinet saw prices for regulkar cabinet saw? And, "if" they already have a cabinet saw (as often is the case), would they get better results by upgrading to a slider or by upgrading from that 14" bandsaw to a bigger, sturdier unit? This is the scenario customers seem to come to me most commonly with.

Erik

[mreza Salav]

Erik, just to be clear I am not saying a cabinet saw is better, not at all. Slider is better than a cabinet saw in many aspects. And I do agree that if you are doing a lot of sheet goods slider is the way to go. All I am saying is that a slider is not an upgrade in "every" aspect. It is an upgrade in "many" aspects but is the same in some aspects in that you do the operation (in this case ripping) the same. Now if safety is the factor to look at then for that very operation slider is not any safer than a traditional cabinet saw. This was rehashed in a very lengthy thread I think not too long ago.
There was a time I would have had swapped out my SS with a slider without hesitation but now I am not sure about that especially that I do have a track saw. As I said, ideally situation is to have both.

[Erik Loza]

Mreza, I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. There is no perfect answer for every ww'wer, just generalities and trends.

Erik

[David Kumm]

I think it is a mistake to believe a slider needs to crosscut a sheet of ply to be useful. I've got sliders ranging from an 18" Hammond to a 120" SCMI with most everything in between. The 36-40" sliders and the Hammond get by far the most use. The big SCMI is next, and the 78" Knapp is run the least. The problem is when needed, the length is really needed but most of the time, the short strokes are the go to machines. The easiest slider to deal with are either the 10' or the 3'. The in between sizes are the biggest compromises. I understand I'm a cult of one in thinking that. Dave

[johnny means]

the brake is toast because it suicides as it stops the saw blade. The spinning saw blade has a LOT of kinetic energy. Stopping the blade involves absorbing that kinetic energy and converting it into something else. Sawstop accomplishes that by, doing the following:

- triggering a strong spring mechanism to retract the blade below the table.
- firing an aluminum block into the blade to stop its rotation.

All this happens in a few thousandths of a second.

the blade is usually toast because the heat produced in stopping the blade that quickly usually welds the blade to the aluminum block.

There is no welding involved and not much heat. The blade simply digs into the soft, honeycombed aluminum. A little wiggled will separate the two. IME, you're usually left with a serviceable blade, though it won't be your "fine cut" blade.

[Marty Schlosser]

To my way of thinking, the jointer's got to be the most scary machine when it comes to the potential for "pulling your hand in and down". Just the thought of such an accident gives me the willies!

I know this thread isn't about jointer safety, but because I felt the porkchop-style guard that's so common here in North America wasn't giving me the margin of safety I was looking for, I elected to go with a European-style bridge guard when I had to add one to my vintage 16" jointer which was made in 1950. Here's the small video I had a machinist make for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DPdTNGxVMY




Her theory was that with most other tools, she said the woodworker could pull their hand back, minimizing injury and with the table saw, it pulls your hand in and down.

[Patrick Curry]

David or anyone else with slider experience, would you mind mentioning a few makes and models of some shorter sliders that would be worth keeping an eye out for - used ones?

SCMI, Felder/Hammer are familiar names to me, as well as Minimax. The Hammer and Minimax seem to be the two more popular makes for small shops and hobbyists. I understand they're both very well made, and also seem to retain their value. I need to be searching for lesser well known small sliders. $2-3k budget.

[David Kumm]

I'm not the best guy to ask about newer stuff as I like old industrial. Felder used to make a short K7 slider and still makes some lighter ones, mainly the Hammer series. Minimax makes some and SCMI used to make an/SI 12 with a short table. There are a few other Euro models that are similar. I'm more into old cast iron sliders. The sliding table isn't as mooth or refined, but the builds were so good that after 50 years they can still spin an 18" blade with virtually no runout.331370331371331372331373 I'd like to see some new choices. I realize they would cost more than a traditional saw but hopefully there would be enough market to justify them. Dave

[glenn bradley]

the brake is toast because . . .


There is no welding involved and not much heat. The blade simply digs into the soft, honeycombed aluminum. A little wiggled will separate the two. IME, you're usually left with a serviceable blade, though it won't be your "fine cut" blade.

Yes, sorry, not trying to be pedantic or argumentative but, Nicholas' description of the process is incorrect. Not that anyone wants to be "experienced" with a Saw Stop firing but, the cartridge pops up into the blade path stopping rotation and the inertia shift causes the blade to drop. The whole thing is very anti-climactic and makes almost no noise other than a 'thunk' when heard through hearing protection with your saw and DC running. Re-use of the blade is not recommended (for the same reasons sharpeners have stopped repairing blades damaged, in almost any way, as discussed in a different thread) although it is removed from the cartridge without much fuss.

I had one firing (my fault) when I failed to notice a piece of foil tape on a piece of stock. A second firing was due to cutting some HDPE plastic that was anti-static treated and therefor conductive. In both cases the override function for a test cut would have saved the day but, I was unaware of the potential at the time. I have used the override function to test for any questionable cuts but, have never found a condition that would have caused a firing (of course when I check, I'm OK :rolleyes:). The first firing changed my attentiveness to foreign materials, the HDPE was just my fault for not realizing what I was cutting . . . I sure didn't save any money by scrounging that scrap HDPE to use for jig material ;-)

[Erik Loza]

...I need to be searching for lesser well known small sliders. $2-3k budget.

The Minimax/SCMi SC3 has been around forever and seems to pop up on the used market pretty frequently. Another option would be a Robland. Out of curiosity, I just went onto Ebay and there's a used Robland E300 for >$3K.

For your budget, I would expect a 15-20-year old machine that will probably need some spare parts (always budget for that) and probably is 3-phase, so you will also want to budget for an inverter, as well. In my experience, "small, single-phase sliders that are turn-key ready" at budget prices (assuming we are talking European built machines, not Chaiwanese) are very hard to come by. This is not to discourage you but I talk to guys all the time who are in the same boat and the conversation goes either one of two ways: Either they come to the realization that by the time they put enough money and work into that "auction gem" to get it back into shape, the new machine is not so much of a stretch after all. Or they just don't have the money, period, and will wait for years for that perfect scenario to show up ("lightly used, single-phase, all the accessories, within 1-hour drive, and half the price of new...").

Anyhow, I'm not trying to characterize owners and certainly, there are exceptions to this, but I see the same patterns over and over again. Guys fall into two categories. Ones who want a "project" and then ones who want a "turn-key machine". In my experience, you can have some overlap there in the pro market, where shops already have three-phase power, a commercial freight dock, etc. but when it comes to home ww'ers, rarely do those two paths seem to meet. At least among the folks I talk to.

Best of luck in your search. I hope you find something that meets your needs.

Erik

[sebastian phillips]

Hi EriK, this is a question for you:
"Wouldn't a machine like your SC2 Classic be a direct competitor and alternative to an ICS Sawstop?"
It seems like the cost of an SC2 would be very close to an ICS with their "sliding table", but the buyer would be getting a true short stroke slider.
I guess a negative could be the right tilt argument for rips off the fence, but otherwise seems like these two saws should be in direct competition..

[Erik Loza]

Hi EriK, this is a question for you:
"Wouldn't a machine like your SC2 Classic be a direct competitor and alternative to an ICS Sawstop?"
It seems like the cost of an SC2 would be very close to an ICS with their "sliding table", but the buyer would be getting a true short stroke slider.
I guess a negative could be the right tilt argument for rips off the fence, but otherwise seems like these two saws should be in direct competition..

Sebastian, you are correct on the pricing. That machine might be a direct competitor to the SC2 Classic but I never seem to have the converation with customers. Most of the guys I talk to already are sort of "sold on the slider concept", if that makes sense. I think you sort of have to be, to have that conversation, because it's work to get info on any Minimax product, whereas info on the various brands of cabinet saws is abundant on the web. In other words, guys can make their own decision beforfe even talking to a rep like me. And maybe they do. I'm sure that I'd sell more sliders if SCM did a better job with marketing here in the States.

To answer your question, though, my response to anyone is that no matter how great a cabinet saw is, it's strength is cutting parallel, not cutting a square. Plus, never really having your hands near the blade for anything aside from ripping thin stock. I've sold hundreds of sliding table saws over the years and have yet to hear about a customer having an accident on one. Sure, it's possible but it just hasn't happened to of my owners. Also, I have never personally had a customer tell me they regretted getting rid of their cabinet saw and moving up to a slider. Some folks might but it's not a comment I've gotten from one of my owners.

Erik

[Keith Pleas]

FWIW there's a KS-3000 in the Seattle Craigslist for $2750:

Search on: 14" Sliding Table Saw KS-3000

[Scott Brandstetter]

Marty
I can't disagree with you on the jointer. I appreciate the video of the upgrade to your jointer. I am going to give it serious consideration for my Grizzly jointer. Not sure (not in front of the jointer now) how I can adapt mine but would sure like to.



To my way of thinking, the jointer's got to be the most scary machine when it comes to the potential for "pulling your hand in and down". Just the thought of such an accident gives me the willies!

I know this thread isn't about jointer safety, but because I felt the porkchop-style guard that's so common here in North America wasn't giving me the margin of safety I was looking for, I elected to go with a European-style bridge guard when I had to add one to my vintage 16" jointer which was made in 1950. Here's the small video I had a machinist make for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DPdTNGxVMY

[Patrick Curry]

David, you're like a collector of fine antique autos! Those are all beautiful. Thanks for sharing

[Patrick Curry]

This kind of takes me back to the point I was trying to make earlier. The market for sliders in the US has been in industry, and so my $2-3k budget is maybe 20-25% of the original cost of a slider- a saw in need of repair with expensive parts.

Eric, what you can do to help is either start selling more $4-6k sliders to dentists looking for a new hobby (within a one hour drive from Louisville, Ky), or convince SCM to make and sell $3k sliders for hobbyist. I'd like to think there could be some trickle down design and manufacturing advantages that could make lower price points possible if the unit sales were high enough?...well here's to hoping anyway.

[eugene thomas]

Well know lot of people like to pile on grizzly but my replacement for my new in 1994 1023 grizzly saw will probably be the G0623x grizzly slider and it's around 3 grand...

[Erik Loza]

This kind of takes me back to the point I was trying to make earlier. The market for sliders in the US has been in industry, and so my $2-3k budget is maybe 20-25% of the original cost of a slider- a saw in need of repair with expensive parts.

Eric, what you can do to help is either start selling more $4-6k sliders to dentists looking for a new hobby (within a one hour drive from Louisville, Ky), or convince SCM to make and sell $3k sliders for hobbyist. I'd like to think there could be some trickle down design and manufacturing advantages that could make lower price points possible if the unit sales were high enough?...well here's to hoping anyway.

Patrick, you're preaching to the choir. Lack of marketing and exposure why Euro machinery in general struggles to gain traction here in the US. Minimax in particular. Amazing to believe that SCM Group is the largest (and not "sort of" the largest, by far and away the largest mfr. of industrial ww'ing machinery in the world) and still, is not that easy to find info about. I tell guys all the time: By the time you add up a decent cabinet saw, jointer, planer, and shaper, you can have a full combo machine with slidiing table saw, Tersa head, etc. But, until I talk to them, the perception I hear from many folks is that it's too expensive, too exotic, etc. It's a challenge.

Erik

[Joe Calhoon]

David, you're like a collector of fine antique autos! Those are all beautiful. Thanks for sharing
I think he has some of those also.:)
I would like to see some inside pictures of the big warehouse his machines are in.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

David or anyone else with slider experience, would you mind mentioning a few makes and models of some shorter sliders that would be worth keeping an eye out for - used ones? SCMI, Felder/Hammer are familiar names to me, as well as Minimax. The Hammer and Minimax seem to be the two more popular makes for small shops and hobbyists. I understand they're both very well made, and also seem to retain their value. I need to be searching for lesser well known small sliders. $2-3k budget.

In your price range, note that Grizzly makes a slider for about $3k which has favorable reviews.

[David Kumm]

I think he has some of those also.:)
I would like to see some inside pictures of the big warehouse his machines are in.

I don't really do the car thing anymore, Joe. That is really a way to dissipate net worth. Still have a modified XKR but mainly play with old machines now. I'll never get paid for my time, but the cash outlay can at least be recovered- most of the time. Storage building has infloor radiant and a bathroom I keep dirty enough that my wife won't enter the building so life is good. Dave

[David Tolsky]

It's amazing how many of us have had cuts, even after years of woodworking. My first cut came about a month ago on my table saw with a slice across my left thumb. A real bleeder did include an ER visit and I got lucky that it didn't hit the bone. The thumb is actually on the way to regenerating. Until I can find my blade guard for the saw I've been half-ripping boards, that is, ripping halfway, stopping the saw, flipping the board and finishing the cut. I like my fingers too so I'm keeping them away from the blade. I'm also considering a Grippppr push block, which I will probably do instead of a blade guard. I can't afford the Saw Stop.

[Erik Loza]

Some rep gave me a Gripper at one of the trade shows, years and years ago. Used it for a number of demos and remember liking it.

Erik

[David Kumm]

I leave about 4 Grrippers on my old saw. I tend to be too impatient to adjust something for one cut so I just pick the one that will work and use it. The tradeoff is the removal of the overhead guard but having the Grripper between me and the 16" blade is worth it. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

It's amazing how many of us have had cuts, even after years of woodworking. My first cut came about a month ago on my table saw with a slice across my left thumb. A real bleeder did include an ER visit and I got lucky that it didn't hit the bone. The thumb is actually on the way to regenerating. Until I can find my blade guard for the saw I've been half-ripping boards, that is, ripping halfway, stopping the saw, flipping the board and finishing the cut. I like my fingers too so I'm keeping them away from the blade. I'm also considering a Grippppr push block, which I will probably do instead of a blade guard. I can't afford the Saw Stop.

Glad to hear your injury isn't severe David.

A Gripper is no substitute for a riving knife/splitter and blade guard, please reconsider your choice.............Regards, Rod.

[mreza Salav]

I think he has some of those also.:)
I would like to see some inside pictures of the big warehouse his machines are in.

I second that Joe. I love seeing the pictures of your shop and after that I think the second are the well restored machines Dave has and based on what I hear he has quite a few.
I'd love to have one of those short sliders.

[Joe Calhoon]

I don't really do the car thing anymore, Joe. That is really a way to dissipate net worth. Still have a modified XKR but mainly play with old machines now. I'll never get paid for my time, but the cash outlay can at least be recovered- most of the time. Storage building has infloor radiant and a bathroom I keep dirty enough that my wife won't enter the building so life is good. Dave

I am finding out how costly the vintage machines are Dave. Most of mine have been pretty much plug and play but still the time spent cleaning, taking apart and adjusting is surprising. Getting read to paint a couple and can see a week or two of labor for that.
Oh well, never seen a U Haul following a Hearse. Or as I always told my wife about the woodworking business. When you are on the Titanic you might as well be first class.

[David Kumm]

Glad to hear your injury isn't severe David.

A Gripper is no substitute for a riving knife/splitter and blade guard, please reconsider your choice.............Regards, Rod.

I agree for most of the time. The riving knife never leaves the saw, and a sharkguard with dust collection is on for most cuts, but when the rip starts to narrow, I much prefer the Grripper with no guard to the guard and a push stick. Dave

[Chris Padilla]

Grrripers are AWESOME. I love mine and feel very confident using them. I also use a Microjig splitter.

[Patrick Curry]

Yes, that entry level Grizzly slider is a possibility. Haven't been able to find many review though.
I've been mostly happy with my Grizzly jointer. Great price for an 8" with carbide cutters. Besides making meatloaf of my finger tip it's been a real joy. (the injury was my own fault)

[Patrick Curry]

I appreciate your comments Erik. I'm also kind of curious about SCM's approach to the US market.

SCM makes and sells sliders in the Euro markets for both industry and hobbyists/small shops, right? Similar to how Delta, Powermatic, Jet, etc. sell to industry and hobbyists here in the US.

So if sliders are commonly found in garages across Europe and SCM has a foothold in that market, do we have access to the same line of lower priced sliders? I'm guessing no, and that's puzzling.

I would think a manufacturer of sliders would look at what Sawstop has accomplished in unit sales here in the US and think, "there's a growing market for safer table saws and we have a proven solution".

From what I can see, sliders are a proven design and so putting some promotional money behind a 'new' style of saws in a market as big as the US wouldn't be that big of a risk.

[Ben Rivel]

I appreciate your comments Erik. I'm also kind of curious about SCM's approach to the US market.

SCM makes and sells sliders in the Euro markets for both industry and hobbyists/small shops, right? Similar to how Delta, Powermatic, Jet, etc. sell to industry and hobbyists here in the US.

So if sliders are commonly found in garages across Europe and SCM has a foothold in that market, do we have access to the same line of lower priced sliders? I'm guessing no, and that's puzzling.

I would think a manufacturer of sliders would look at what Sawstop has accomplished in unit sales here in the US and think, "there's a growing market for safer table saws and we have a proven solution".

From what I can see, sliders are a proven design and so putting some promotional money behind a 'new' style of saws in a market as big as the US wouldn't be that big of a risk.
Ha, so in other words youre saying why arent they putting their money where their mouth is? I like it!

[David Kumm]

I'm not sure the Europeans have access to cheaper sliders. Given the strength of the dollar, we may have the best deal on them. The Europeans have a different buying philosophy. Not so much big houses, but other stuff, like cars, are bought more for performance and quality. There are some pretty nice machines there. SCM and others should educate buyers on the quality and build differences that make the extra cost worthwhile. I don't think they can build cheaper without sourcing overseas and many Euro machines do consist of Chinese parts. Some Euro machines may be more Chinese than what the buyer thinks. Doesn't make them bad, just means there won't be cheaper stuff in the future because the cost reductions have all ready been made. Dave

[Patrick Curry]

Yeah, I guess that that's true. Why they aren't doing just that really escapes me.
I'm of the impression sliders are quite common in small Euro workshops, so it's a proven and established design. The US is a big market with little slider penetration in the small shop/hobby market. Spells "opportunity".
For a large company that can afford the distribution and 'educational' costs, it would seem like a logical opportunity and I can't figure out why it hasn't been taken?
There must be some market research pointing towards the US ww'ers reluctance to step away from the traditional design of a cabinet saw and our beloved jigs.

[Keith Weber]

One big problem that I see is that it's ridiculously difficult to get information on pricing on sliding table saws, with Grizzly possibly being the only exception. We live in the age of the Internet and easy information. I swear they would sell a lot more saws if they would make ALL the information readily available. Specs, pictures, videos, AND prices of not only the saws, but also the parts and options.

If I go to a website looking to buy an item or research something, and I'm confronted with "Request a quote", "Call for information", or "Please leave your contact information and a representative will contact you", I just go elsewhere and buy the item from someone else. I want to know it now. I want to buy it now. I don't want to have to sit by the phone waiting for somebody to call me back. Most of the time I'm out of the country and/or trying to sleep for a night shift during business hours.

I'd be willing to bet that Grizzly wouldn't sell nearly as many tools as they do if you had to call and ask somebody for a price on every little thing that you were considering. I personally spend a lot of money on tools, parts, and supplies, and absolutely none of it goes to companies that make it difficult for me to "Buy it now", online, around the clock.

Are these companies just stuck in a time capsule w.r.t. marketing strategies, or is there a reason they feel the need to control information? It's like Corporate Communism!

[Joe Calhoon]

I don't know anything about the home- hobby shops in Europe. At the machinery shows there are a lot of small sliding table saws in the 1200 to 1500mm length. Brands like Holzmann and even Jet have these type saw. Mafell and Festool have small push pull saws that are a little different and safer than a standard table saw.

The industrial saw companies like Martin, Panhans and Altendorf used to sell table saws without a sliding table but don't think any of those offer that anymore. I don't know about SCM Invincable. In the small and medium pro shops it is rare to see a standard saw. The above companies do make a short stroke slider usually in the 2 meter range with a robust outrigger. That is what I would have if no room for a large format slider.

The slider is not the first choice for sheet goods in Euro shops either. Small cabinet shops will have a vertical for breaking down sheets (their sheet sizes are larger) and the slider for odd & angle cuts and solid wood sawing and joinery. Bigger shops will have a beam saw for sheet goods.

Most of the sellers here do not realize the potential for solid wood with these saws.
Typically the smaller- medium shops use a power fed bandsaw for ripping and have a large format slider for precision saw cuts in solid wood. All the pro shops there usually have a small S4S machine also.

We don't use a table saw in our shop anymore. I have a old unisaw on wheels that has only been turned on a few times in the last several years. The European approach to woodworking is quite a bit different. They don't think the hands should ever be close to the blade and do not want to depend on technology to stop the blade. But you can cut off fingers on any machine no matter how safe...
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[Chris Padilla]

Wow, some very nice tools in that shop, Joe!

[Martin Wasner]

If euros are building euro style cabinets, I'm not even sure why you'd bother owning a tablesaw. All you really need is a cnc, an edge bander, a case clamp, and an impact to mount hardware. Literally everything else can be cut and drilled on the CNC. If you need to build something other than slab fronts, that's a different story.

[Erik Loza]

Regarding, "why are sliders not more popular in the states", several reasons.

First, it's been a cabinet saw culture here in the US forever. My dad, who was a contractor and industrial arts teacher for many years, would not know what to do with a slider if I gave him one. All he wants is a Unisaw or '66. I go into shops all the time who still have a cabinet saw that they modified to look like an aircraft carrier, with all sorts of extensions and outfeeds or even another cabinet saw siamesed in there and they still think a slider takes up too much space. Which is silly.

Second, the price point. It's not that sliders are getting cheaper (they aren't. Unless they're not really made in the EU...)but that cabinet saws are getting more expensive. Ten years ago, it would be unheard of to charge upwards of $5K for a regular cabinet saw.

Third, especially in regards to the hobby market, the level of exposure. How big is Europe compared to the EU? In the EU, you can most likely drive to a dealer within 3-4 hours and put your hands on something like this. For 99% of Americans, that's impossible. And with the demise of the trade shows during the recession, the other major channel for exposure (aside from the dealerships) dried up. So now, you have to rely on the internet or if you're lucky, a local referral to get to actually see one.

I agree with whoever said this a few posts back. It is hard to get sold on sliders when you can't see one. It's the single biggest challenge I face as a sales rep. Trying to explain over the phone, how something like this benefits you. And to that point, remember that if we're talking hobbyists, a good number don't have much ww'ing experience in the first place. In other words, their first machine possibly is the slider. So, not only do they not know what a slider does but perhaps, don't know what the cabinet saw won't do for them. Just like bandsaws. It's a tougher sell to get a guy who has never used a 14" bandsaw to spend $4K on an Italian machine than the guy who has owned a 14" machine and been trying to resaw with it for a few years. If that makes sense.

Erik

[Ted Phillips]

After many years of usage, I had a really bad scare with my TS a couple of years ago. I stopped using the saw, quite honestly I was afraid of it - and the table started to collect shop junk... It sat unused in the corner gathering dust for over two years. Last month, I decided that I would never be able to "get back in the saddle." I called up a buddy and traded the saw to him for a case of Guinness. (I know, I know...)

I haven't gone "full Troglodyte," but I'm enjoying my shop time more than ever. Here's how I have compensated:

1. I bought several nice backsaws and panel saws (LN, Disston) and really learned how to be a better sawyer. I also built a sawbench using one of Schwarz' plans. I can do clean accurate crosscuts and long rips consistently.

2. Upgraded to a Lenox Tri-Master carbide blade on my bandsaw. It really makes a difference...

3. I finally invested in a solid #7 Jointer Plane and learned how to use it. I can get edges and faces dead true.

In the bottom line, I always say that if you aren't smiling while you are woodworking, then you are "doing it wrong." My personal journey has led me away from the table saw. And I'm still smiling!

TedP

[Roy Turbett]

I've had my 5 hp SawStop ICS for over a year and find its made as well as the Unisaw it replaced. I bought my saw used and it didn't come with the blade guard but did have the riving knife. I had to grind a little off the top of the riving knife to get it to clear some non-though cuts but it works well with both thin kerf and standard kerf blades. You need to use a different safety cartridge for dado sets which makes setups take a little longer and I still use my radial arm saw for dado cuts when practical.

All things considered, I would still buy the SawStop ICS if I were in the market for a cabinet saw. However, from what I've seen and read, I would buy the new Bosch if I were in the market for a job site saw. I like that the new Bosch captures the blade from the side and doesn't destroy it like the SawStop and that the same cartridge can be used for standard and dado blades. I also like that Bosch has a history of licensing the technology they develop and that, if they are successful in defending against the SawStop lawsuit the technology, it will likely show up in table saws and other machines made by other manufacturers.

[Patrick Curry]

I agree. Withholding information needed to make a purchase decision frustrates the buyer. It also insinuates prices are negotiable. True or not, that will turn some people away.

[Jim Andrew]

Couple of years ago, I convinced myself that I needed a slider. Had to rearrange the shop, change the dust collection system around, and decided I had room to keep my old unisaw. So, now I am the proud owner of a Hammer 79x48, and a unisaw with the long rails. Find I use them both, but really like the Hammer for straight line ripping solid lumber. Don't use near the amount of sheet goods I used to when I did contracting, more solid wood. And the slider is great for putting together panels, and squaring them up. The nice thing about the Hammer is that there are no posts to support the sliding table, so I can move it around without throwing it out of adjustment. I do move it out a bit when cutting 4x8 sheets.

[Mike P Turner]

I'd like to have a Saw Stop but can't afford the misfires. After spending all that cash on the saw, I can't afford a new brake and saw blade if the saw were to come in contact with a stray staple in the wood. Waiting for Bosch as well.

[Erik Loza]

The Bosch jobsite saw I saw in Vegas was nice. Beefier than the SS jobsite saw. I do hope Bosch comes out with a direct competitor for the SS. Nothing against the SS (many of my owners have it and seem to be very happy with it...) but the Bosch technology does seem to offer an advantage that way.

Erik

[Harvey Miller]

I use a 'little wizard" metal detector to check questionable wood before cutting (Paul Marcel's youtube video turned me on to them). Lot's of guys haven't ever had a misfire.

I'd like to have a Saw Stop but can't afford the misfires. After spending all that cash on the saw, I can't afford a new brake and saw blade if the saw were to come in contact with a stray staple in the wood. Waiting for Bosch as well.

[chase standifer]

I'd like to have a Saw Stop but can't afford the misfires. After spending all that cash on the saw, I can't afford a new brake and saw blade if the saw were to come in contact with a stray staple in the wood. Waiting for Bosch as well.

Misfires are much rarer than SS's detractors would lead you to believe. A staple wouldn't trigger the safety anyway unless you were touching it. The whole system is based on a change in conductivity that the blade senses. If the staple isn't grounded there will be no trip. If you look into the triggers that people report you will find 99.9% of the time it was user error. Forgetting to change the setting on the miter gauge is the most common I have heard of. I tripped mine by screwing up putting it into bypass mode when cutting aluminum. The one thing I can promise you is that these things aren't popping off willy nilly.

[glenn bradley]

One of these days I am going to start a thread where I just say "Saw Stop" and see how much conversation it stirs up :).

I have a Saw Stop and I find it interesting how polarizing and passionate the feelings are over this product. Like many others I can say that I would buy it even without the safety feature as it compares favorably with competition that lacks it in quality and price. The safety feature for me is just a bonus. fortunately there are a lot of choices out there so anyone should be able to find something that fits their needs in a saw.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

I have a Saw Stop and I find it interesting how polarizing and passionate the feelings are over this product.

It's not the product that's polarizing.