First mortise

[Casey Carr]

How long should it take to cut a mortise?

I'm building a base for a friend's butcher block top that he wants to use as a work bench. In order to try new things, I'm building it like a real work bench, just scaled down. Double mortise and tenon for the legs in the shoes. It took me two hours to cut the first one. Still have three more to go in this shoe, four in the other shoe and then more in the top and legs.

Full disclosure, I can't trust my drill press as far as I can throw it so I drilled 1/4" holes for the 3/8" mortise. I'm also using regular bench chisels and not mortise chisels.

Also have never fully finished sharpening my chisels. Need to find a better method of sharpening, or it could be I'm too anal, which I think I'm starting to lean towards. I look at every surface with a 10x loupe and just got bored with flattening the backs of a dozen chisels or so. I've never touched the faces with a stone and these things are still cutting through wood pretty easily, so I'm guessing they're sharp enough. And they are cutting and not just ripping fibers.

I also noticed I'm coming in at a very shallow angle and compressing the edges of the mortise.

Would a mortise chisel help that much? If so, do I just go at it with a 3/8" chisel or start out smaller? I was at least happy the edges met up in the middle so I didn't go crooked. Or do I need to bite the bullet and get a better drill press? I've looked at two the last two weekends and they've both had more runout than mine currently does, and mine is about .030", but still hard enough to hit an accurate starting point with it.

I wasn't frustrated with it, kind of relaxing actually, but would like to speed things up since I like this joint. My time is limited enough and I would like to actually get some furniture built someday for myself rather than just hammer out mortises.

[lowell holmes]

Download this article. You are overthinking the process.:)


http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/MORTISE_BY_HAND.pdf

The article shows mortise chisels. They are desirable, but bevel edge chisels will do just fine.
Check Paul Sellers articles on line.

[Daniel O'Neill]

This video (https://youtu.be/q_NXq7_TILA)helped me a lot.

Paul Sellers hand cut mortise.

[Jake Elkins]

How long should it take to cut a mortise?

I'm building a base for a friend's butcher block top that he wants to use as a work bench. In order to try new things, I'm building it like a real work bench, just scaled down. Double mortise and tenon for the legs in the shoes. It took me two hours to cut the first one. Still have three more to go in this shoe, four in the other shoe and then more in the top and legs.

Full disclosure, I can't trust my drill press as far as I can throw it so I drilled 1/4" holes for the 3/8" mortise. I'm also using regular bench chisels and not mortise chisels.

Also have never fully finished sharpening my chisels. Need to find a better method of sharpening, or it could be I'm too anal, which I think I'm starting to lean towards. I look at every surface with a 10x loupe and just got bored with flattening the backs of a dozen chisels or so. I've never touched the faces with a stone and these things are still cutting through wood pretty easily, so I'm guessing they're sharp enough. And they are cutting and not just ripping fibers.

I also noticed I'm coming in at a very shallow angle and compressing the edges of the mortise.

Would a mortise chisel help that much? If so, do I just go at it with a 3/8" chisel or start out smaller? I was at least happy the edges met up in the middle so I didn't go crooked. Or do I need to bite the bullet and get a better drill press? I've looked at two the last two weekends and they've both had more runout than mine currently does, and mine is about .030", but still hard enough to hit an accurate starting point with it.

I wasn't frustrated with it, kind of relaxing actually, but would like to speed things up since I like this joint. My time is limited enough and I would like to actually get some furniture built someday for myself rather than just hammer out mortises.

I now cut the majority of my mortises by hand, and typically get good results, however I am still struggling with through mortises. My most commonly used chisels are Narex 3/8 inch and Narex 5/16 mortise chisels from Lee Valley. Good deal at only like 15 bucks apiece. I used to just use sandpaper on granite, but bought a WorkSharp (3000?) a couple years ago, and it has been a great investment. About 5 minutes to get a new chisel truly sharp. I'll chop a mortise (5 minutes or less), then spend 10 seconds on the WorkSharp, and chop the next. I have previously used a cheap benchtop mortiser and a drill press, but I grew tired of inaccuracies and limitations once the stock gets longer then a few feet or wider than a few inches, or needing a mortise deeper than two inches, etc. I like power tools, and if I had the coin for a large mortiser or a Festool domino I would probably be doing that. However, I am content with doing all by hand for now. I also like the visceral motion of swinging a medieval-looking wooden mallet. However, the neander way is much louder than with electrons, so no more frame building at 10 PM.

Bottom line, get a mortise chisel or two and a repeatable and fast method for sharpening.

[David Eisenhauer]

+3 on having a look at some Paul Sellers quickie How-To You Tube videos for some basic mortise chopping instruction if you want to go the hand mortising direction. As to sharpening, it does not sound like you are really set up to fully sharpen a chisel in a fairly quick and painless manner. One can sharpen without the use of a 10X loupe and working on 10 chisels at a time will definitely wear you out. If you are chopping out 3/8" mortises, then fully sharpen a 3/8" chisel (the size to use for a 3/8" mortise) and drop back to re hone it as required during the mortising session. From your comments above, it may be possible that (at this stage) you are not familiar of how much better and easier it is to work with a truly sharp chisel. You will need to sharpen the bevel side of the chisel and you can use either a bench or mortise chisel. Both work, especially for smaller mortises in the 1/4" and 3/8" sizes. Again, have a look at Paul Sellers on You Tube.

[Casey Carr]

Thank you guys! Ten minutes sounds a whole lot better than 2 hours. I'll have to look at the video tonight.

I took 3 of the chisels I have and run them on my 4000 and 8000 grit stones last night, the faces really don't take any time, just trying to get a mirror finish on the backs had me a little frustrated and I don't think I need to be that anal. I might try and find a waterstone somewhere between the 800 and 4000, seemed to be more work than it should have been to get the scratch marks out between the two grits. I was probably going for optical quality, and on ten chisels all at once I got burned out. I'll try the next mortise and see how it goes with the next one having sharpened the faces also. I'll also try to sharpen a couple chisels a night and just be done with them.

I do have a worksharp 3000, but I've never plugged it in. I worry about using it to flatten the backs, I'm afraid of rounding the edges over. Just me personally, but I think I'll have a better chance of getting the backs truly flat with stones, but I can see how touching up the faces with the worksharp would be easier than having to get the bucket of water out and deal with that mess. It's amazing how quickly a 220 grit piece of sandpaper wears out flattening stones.

I'll try another one this weekend and let you know how it goes!

[John TenEyck]

Think power tools. A router will cut a perfect mortise in less time than it takes to sharpen one chisel. Cutting mortises by hand may be therapeutic and provide a sense of accomplishment to some - but I'm not one of them.

John

[Charles Lent]

I agree with John. A fixed base router with a collar, a spiral bit, and a pattern cut from 1/4" plywood or MDF and attached where you want the mortise with screws or double sided tape will make your mortise in just a few minutes. You will only need to chisel the corners to square them if you want them square. I never chop mortises any more.

Charley

[Casey Carr]

I may eventually do them with a router, but the mortise I'm cutting is 1.75" deep. Plus I'd have to order an spiral router bit. I still may do that with some of the more shallow ones I have to do.

[Zech Wicker]

Using bench chisels is fine, but I would suggest honing them to a 35 degree angle as opposed to the 25 degree that most bench chisels are. Depending on the quality of steel athe 25 degrees the edge can actually even start to roll if you are doing a lot of chopping. I would second the ease of of use of the Worksharp 3000, but if you are doing a lot of sharpening then it can get a little costly and tedious having to replace the disks and change them out. There are a ton of sharpening methods out there and I think you are best if you just pick one and stick with it. This saves you time on new equipment, and learning new techniques. It also allows you to become proficient more quickly without overwhelming yourself. I really The Woodwhisperer video on sharpening with Shapton stones. I use them in conjunction with an old Eclipse honing guide and board setup with stop blocksmoking so I can quickly set my honing angle. As far as frequency of sharpening, I think so much of that depends on the quality of steel. After a good honing on good steel, I will often just strop the edge if it seems like it is getting dull. Hope this info helps. Oh and to answer your original question, there are to many variables for a specific answer. (How experienced are you? How sharp are tools, and of what quality are they? How big or small is the mortise itself?) More often then not I do use my drill press, and then hog out the rest with a mortise chisel. Don't worry so much about getting the bottom super cleaned out and square as it is not where the strength of the mortise and tenon joint is at.

[John TenEyck]

If you buy carbide bits they will last for hundreds and hundreds of mortises. After you cut them with a router your chisels will be lonely - and your hands won't hurt.

John

[Casey Carr]

I think I'll get some mortise chisels before I change the angle on my chisels. They are quality chisels, was hoping this wouldn't come up. Asked a question on sharpening a few years ago on some forum and felt berated that my starter chisels were what they are. That aside, I've pretty much settled on water stones and was planning on using the worksharp for touching up the faces quickly.

I did go over the backs of all of them tonight with my 800 stone and I think they're all fine. I'll go over them with the 4000/8000 stones tomorrow and see where they're at. The three I was using on this mortise are all sharp now, my arm is pretty bald where I dry shaved with them! I took them thru the whole process. I'll give it another go this weekend on the next hole.

And these are through mortises, how do you deal with the bottom on a non-thru mortise anyways. I know it's not where the strength lies, but how ugly can it be?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

You keep talking about working on the backs. You only need to do that once, when you first sharpen them. After that, just hone the bevel and go.

[David Eisenhauer]

The bottoms of mortises can be as ugly as they end up being as long as they are deep enough to accept the full-depth insertion of the tenon. That being said, they actually do not usually end up too bad if you are consistent with the depth of your chisel insertion (for lack of a better way to explain) when chopping the mortise. For the deeper mortise you are working on, it may be beneficial to add on a depth limiting masking tape strip to your chisel to help you see when you have achieved final depth. As you make successive "chops" with waste removal leverage moving along the length of the mortise, all down to the tape marker, the bottom ends up being fairly consistent in depth. A good way to sharpen chisels (either bench or mortise) for mortising is to flatten the back, then use your initial stones (or diamond, sand paper, whatever) to grind the bevel face to an approximate 25 deg angle, then use your finest grit stone to hone in a small (short length, say 1/16" long or so) 30 or 35 deg bevel to the very tip (cutting end) of the chisel. This is called a secondary or micro bevel. That final, steeper bevel should not fail as quickly as the shallower 25 deg primary bevel and you need only re hone that micro bevel from time to time as you are working. The re honing takes very little time at all. The micro bevel is easily added to any existing primary bevel and is used on all types of chisels as required. Usually, only fine hand-paring only (no hammer striking used) chisels are used at shallower primary bevel angles like 20 - 25 deg.

[John TenEyck]

A router leaves a perfectly smooth, flat bottomed mortise.

And your hands won't hurt.

John

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I think I'll get some mortise chisels before I change the angle on my chisels.

Let us know what you choose to purchase for mortise chisels..... even if they are not "real" mortise chisels (if you know what I mean).


Asked a question on sharpening a few years ago on some forum and felt berated that my starter chisels were what they are.

Do you mean because you had such nice chisels they thought that you should not start with such a nice set :D

This was my first set of chisels (yeah, $9 delivered, even today).

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-16-150-Series-3-Piece-Chisel/dp/B00002X1YO

Well, my first set was purchased by my Father, probably in the 70's or 80's. I will keep them just because of that. I can use them well, even if the steel does not hold up as well as my "nicer" chisels. I purchased a newer set just to practice sharpening (discount bin for $3 at target one year). I bought a third set as my beater / loaner set. I will probably let my oldest daughter practice sharpening this set right from the package, I have simply not done it yet.

The edge on my cheap chisels does not hold up well as I have them sharpened, but they pair really well if you can deal with the handles.

Will also be interested in how your time improves as you go. I remember when I first started cutting dovetails by hand. It took me a couple of days to cut the dovetails on a single drawer. Now, depending on the wood, I might cut a couple a night. Oh, and I am not an expert.

So, just because some expert can cut a mortise in 10 minutes does not mean that you can now. But you will be able to later if you practice now.

I keep thinking that I should create something that uses mortises. I two very small through mortises (about 1/2") some years ago. I seem to remember that it was neither fast nor perfect.I expect that it would be faster for me now that I have more experience in general.

[Casey Carr]

Thus will be fun recording the time improvements over the course of these mortises. I will keep everyone posted. Might even get around to ordering a mortise chisel or two before I'm done. I was originally thinking March before getting done with this, now I'm just hoping I can get it done before summer is over. I'll stick with the lie Nielsen brand if/when I order any. I like the socket style chisels.

I'm aware I only have to do the backs once, but every time I switch from the 800 to 4000 grit, the very tips of the corners don't ever polish out. As I sharpen the faces it'll eventually go away, but I wanted them gone before I started on the faces. And I have to work 99.9% of the chisel back just to get to those corners, too much work. I am an engineer, anality comes with the trade I guess!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Be sure to read this thread

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?48495-Mortise-Chisel-Choices-Help!

[Casey Carr]

So I chopped another mortise this weekend. I watched Paul Seller's video and that was a bit of a revelation, I was doing it all wrong to start with. I probably cut my time in half, but it's hard to gauge since I had my two monsters interrupting me every couple minutes while I was trying to do it. I may have messed up by pre-drilling holes in the mortises first. I couldn't keep the chisel from twisting. And I was surprised how easy it is to get off of perpendicular. Particularly in the corners. Found out my vise kind of sucks too, couldn't keep the piece I have from being pushed down. It's a Sjoberg workbench, never really had to use the vises on it before. I think I will order a mortise chisel though, maybe that'll help keep it from twisting. Now Lie Nielsen or Ray Isles...

[lowell holmes]

So I chopped another mortise this weekend. I watched Paul Seller's video and that was a bit of a revelation, I was doing it all wrong to start with. I probably cut my time in half, but it's hard to gauge since I had my two monsters interrupting me every couple minutes while I was trying to do it. I may have messed up by pre-drilling holes in the mortises first. I couldn't keep the chisel from twisting. And I was surprised how easy it is to get off of perpendicular. Particularly in the corners. Found out my vise kind of sucks too, couldn't keep the piece I have from being pushed down. It's a Sjoberg workbench, never really had to use the vises on it before. I think I will order a mortise chisel though, maybe that'll help keep it from twisting. Now Lie Nielsen or Ray Isles...
Actually, you need both LN and Ray Iles. Any tool junkie can tell you that. Check the article I referenced earlier, it will save you a lot of confusion. A bevel edged chisel that is sharp will make short work of it. There is no reason to whack away at it.:)

[David Eisenhauer]

I would not chop the mortises in a vise. I believe it is better to chop with the wood secure on the bench top surface. Some folks advocate locating the piece being chopped on (the "choppee"?) over a leg for further stability. Try one without pre drilling just to see the difference. There is no need to "pound" on the chisel with the hammer, just solid taps to drive the chisel down to whatever depth it will easily drive to without seriously sticking the chisel in the wood. I find that if you start the chisel square to the intended mortise outline, it tends to stay square as you knock it down. Drive it, re position an 1/8", 1/4", or a little more (the distance between "chops" is not critical) and do it again. It goes fairly fast and easy when you get into the rhythm.

[roger wiegand]

Unlike some here I've always found mortising with a router to be a pain. Lots of jigs to make, trying to balance a big router on a narrow board or guess accurately where you were on a router table, having to either square the mortise or round the tenon, etc. I don't get the allure. I now have the bigger General mortising machine with the indexing table that makes short work of cutting mortises very reproducibly and very quickly, but before that I either chopped them fully by hand or drilled out the bulk of the wood with a forstner bit and then squared it up with a mortising chisel. Each way took 10-15 minutes each and was relatively pleasing work to do.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Actually, you need both LN and Ray Iles. Any tool junkie can tell you that. Check the article I referenced earlier, it will save you a lot of confusion. A bevel edged chisel that is sharp will make short work of it. There is no reason to whack away at it.:)

Hey, you wack away at it because it is fun.... Buy one of the 8 lb brass sledge hammers. The brass won't damage the chisel, right?

http://www.wiltontools.com/us/en/view-series/b-a-s-h-brass-sledge-hammers/BrassSldgHmr :D

I own the Ray Iles chisels.

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-MORT.XX/English_Mortise_Chisels_by_Ray_Iles

Note that it says:


The sides of the chisel form a slight trapezoid, so that if your chisel isn't perfectly aligned with the cut you won't damage the sides of the mortise, and more importantly, there is a lot less of a chance for the chisel to get stuck. You just push the chisel in the mortise a little and it loosens up. Lighter sash mortise chisels are ground parallel but that's because they are designed for shallower mortises in window sashes which are usually in soft wood. Some manufacturers say that that parallel sides make it easier to guide and align the chisel with the mortise but in fact the alignment of the mortise is determined by the first stroke of the blade into the wood, long before the sides of the chisel can have any effect.

The Lie Nielsen versions claim to be parallel. Anyone have any particular opinions on this? Or should I have just opened a new thread.... but I figured that it did provide justification on why you should own both! :p

Oh, and I really want to know. If there are no particular answers, then I will post another thread specifically. Please reduce my ignorance.

[lowell holmes]

"The Lie Nielsen versions claim to be parallel. Anyone have any particular opinions on this? Or should I have just opened a new thread.... but I figured that it did provide justification on why you should own both! :p"
Oh, and I really want to know. If there are no particular answers, then I will post another thread specifically. Please reduce my ignorance."[/QUOTE]

The Lie Nielsen chisels are parallel. I have Lie Nielsen, Ray Iles, and Narex mortise chisels. The Ray Iles and Narex are pig stickers (different sizes). I will use any of them according to the whim I have at the time of mortise. Actually, the pig stickers get used more, but there are occasions I'm happy to have the choice.

[Casey Carr]

Thanks Andrew, there's another revelation! I was originally going Lie Nielsen, then I read the thread you linked on the differences and it sold me on the Ray Iles. Then after chopping this one and my bevel edge chisels started twisting, I was back to the Lie Nielsen's because of the parallel sides. Now I'm learning the sides make no difference. Wonderful, guess I'm going to have to try both. I wish I knew what wood ol' Paul was chopping on, because the maple I'm working on doesn't chop near as easily. And my chisel was pretty well beat when I was done. And that was with fairly light taps, wasn't trying to beat it into submission. I did give it a couple good whacks a time or two, but found my chisel was too hard to get unstuck so I quit. I'm probably going to have to give it a quick hone after the first half. The twisting really bothers me though. I had to do a lot more cleanup on the sides with this second mortise, walls weren't flat because of the twisting.

And I stuck it in a vise because that's what Paul did in his video. He was probably doing it there to hold the piece of plexiglass in place so he could visually show what was going on in the wood. I did the first one on my drill press table and figured it might be easier with it clamped down. At a minimum, I never felt like my fingers were in any danger with it in the vise. I nicked one while doing it on the drill press table. So far there hasn't been any sweat or tears, but there has been blood. The tears will come when I find my mortises aren't cut perpendicular and I can't get the tenons in...

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Sadly, you do not live close, but, I could drop one of my chisels in the mail for you to test.... You just need to send it back after you have tested it. I only have the Ray Iles chisels, however.

[David Eisenhauer]

You will get there. How many have you done now? It will get easier as you get more familiar with (in no particular order): sharpening, holding the chisel, marking out the mortise, moving the chisel in the mortise, striking the chisel, clamping or holding the work down, etc. It is all intertwined and each step feeds into the others. I have one friend that was striking too hard when he first started and that caused him to very slightly move the chisel out of square when he struck the chisel. He was striking too hard because his chisels were not sharp enough from the get-go, plus he was not stopping work to re hone them soon enough. His chisels were not very good steel, but buying better chisels did not really solve the issue as much as finding out what "sharp" was and setting up an easy-to-use sharpening station for quick re honing. How each chisel handle fits of "feels" in my hand is a whole lot of the equation for me when it comes to creating perpendicular chops.

[lowell holmes]

Casey,

Download the article I mentioned in my earlier post. It will help you with most of the questions you have.

Pay particular attention to the Maynard method.

[John TenEyck]

If you want to chop mortises by hand more power to you. I was surprised to read you are an engineer, though. I thought engineers recognized that other engineers had invented all those nice power tools to make wood working faster, easier, and more accurate. I did. Mortises are dead easy to make with a router and jig and they come out with perpendicular, perfectly parallel sides of precise width, with flat bottoms, time after time. Quickly.

John

[Casey Carr]

Call me old fashioned John, just want to learn how to do it by hand, fascinated by the people that can do it so well and from what I saw of Seller's video, it can actually be quicker than power tools, especially considering the time spent with jigs. Granted, a router won't care how hard the wood is like a chisel does, but I'd still like to get moderately proficient with it.

Still only done done with two, will get more done this weekend. Nice four day weekend for me.

Do have a question on the worksharp though. What does everyone use for touching up? Sandpaper or the leather stropping wheel? Or something else even?

[Frank Martin]

Call me old fashioned John, just want to learn how to do it by hand, fascinated by the people that can do it so well and from what I saw of Seller's video, it can actually be quicker than power tools, especially considering the time spent with jigs. Granted, a router won't care how hard the wood is like a chisel does, but I'd still like to get moderately proficient with it.


No problem doing it with chisels as you clearly want to learn the process and seem to enjoy hand tools more than power tools. However, don't fall for the chisel is faster argument. I do lose tenon joinery for the most part. Now it is with Festool Domino, before it was with a Wood Rat or Router Boss. I am doing this as a hobby and there is no way Paul Sellers (I really like him for other reasons), or any other pro can cut 20 mortises faster with a chisel than I can do 40 of them with the power tools I have. I use hand tools too, just not for mortising.

[Chris Hachet]

Unlike some here I've always found mortising with a router to be a pain. Lots of jigs to make, trying to balance a big router on a narrow board or guess accurately where you were on a router table, having to either square the mortise or round the tenon, etc. I don't get the allure. I now have the bigger General mortising machine with the indexing table that makes short work of cutting mortises very reproducibly and very quickly, but before that I either chopped them fully by hand or drilled out the bulk of the wood with a forstner bit and then squared it up with a mortising chisel. Each way took 10-15 minutes each and was relatively pleasing work to do.

I have Jet morticing machine and mortice Chisels. Either are prefferred in my shop as they are quieter, make less of a mess, and are more enjoyable. YMMV.

Regards,

Chris

[Chris Hachet]

Sadly, you do not live close, but, I could drop one of my chisels in the mail for you to test.... You just need to send it back after you have tested it. I only have the Ray Iles chisels, however.

Good to know you like the Ray isles, I have Sorby, vintage pig stickers, and another German mortice chisel (pig sticker) I picked up. Thinking of getting the Isles just because I would like a matched set.

[Chris Hachet]

You will get there. How many have you done now? It will get easier as you get more familiar with (in no particular order): sharpening, holding the chisel, marking out the mortise, moving the chisel in the mortise, striking the chisel, clamping or holding the work down, etc. It is all intertwined and each step feeds into the others. I have one friend that was striking too hard when he first started and that caused him to very slightly move the chisel out of square when he struck the chisel. He was striking too hard because his chisels were not sharp enough from the get-go, plus he was not stopping work to re hone them soon enough. His chisels were not very good steel, but buying better chisels did not really solve the issue as much as finding out what "sharp" was and setting up an easy-to-use sharpening station for quick re honing. How each chisel handle fits of "feels" in my hand is a whole lot of the equation for me when it comes to creating perpendicular chops.

I also sharpen frequently when working. it is really quick to go to my finest stone and polish up a bit as opposed to starting out coarse and going through teh whole process. When it starts feeling slightly dull.....it needs to hit the stone IMHO.

[Brian Holcombe]

I chop mortises with the work clamped to my saw bench, using a mortise chisel a mortise gauge and a square.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/8358A025-F078-4179-99F7-561C8D5DD71C_zpsdwunuy04.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/AD3F3441-66AB-4C37-8308-ECF82D199D51_zpsiwfzttvy.jpg

I also use a bottom scraping chisel because I use Japanese mortise chisels, if you are using Ray isles you won't need that.

In rock maple it may take about 10-15 minutes once you get som practice under your belt.

[lowell holmes]

Paul Sellers (I really like him for other reasons), or any other pro can cut 20 mortises faster with a chisel than I can do 40 of them with the power tools I have. I use hand tools too, just not for mortising.[/QUOTE]

Paul can chop one or two mortises before you can get your machine set up. I've seen him work. I have mortise pal and like it, but for one or two mortises, it gets done with a chisel.