Are Japanese Instruments Really Superior?

[Steve H Graham]

I'm wondering if there is any consensus here on the quality of Japanese instruments.

I have 4 Gibson instruments. The years of manufacture are 1966, 1977 (roughly), 1996, and 2013. The first two are very nice. The second two...the lacquer looks like I put it on with a spray can. One has an extra piece of mother of pearl next to an inlay. They play just fine, but the Chinese Epiphone I bought in 2010 seems to have better QC.

I have three Japanese electrics. One is an old Matsumoku Burny Les Paul. The other two are History (Fujigen) guitars. Everything is perfect, except, oddly, the hole for the end peg on the Burny is slightly off. The electronics the History guitars came with are nothing to write home about, but that stuff is easy to replace.

I really want to get a top-quality semihollow, but I am tired of disappointing Gibsons. I am thinking about ordering a Seventy Seven (made in Nagano) instead.

People say the Japanese are as good as any woodworkers anywhere. Is it really true?

[Allan Speers]

Dunno about superior, but Gibsons are ridiculously overpriced. You are clearly paying for the name.


Historically, a lot of Jap guitars were made out of Poplar. (esp Ibanez.) Poplar is considered junk wood by most major US manufacturers, yet most small builders say it's one of the best tonewoods available, so there's that.

The wood & the finish are pretty much everything, since anything else can be changed.

One big deal is to look at both the bridge and the screws that hold it into the body. Quality cast steel, and deep screws made of stainless or titanium help transfer more vibration into the body, which results in a more responsive instrument. - But these can easily be retrofitted.


Semi-hollow guitars are a strange category, though. If you get too MUCH vibration, then there's a feedback issue. Some of the best SH guitars were made with plywood tops, (ES 335) so go figure.... You should also realize that a semi-hollow guitar will never sound like a solid, no matter what, as the body has a significantly lower resonant frequency. (A Hollow-T is most definitely NOT a Telecsater!) As a professional engineer & producer, I mostly stay away from them as I don't like where they sit in the mix. However, there are definitely exceptions to that rule. Blues, jazz-rock, etc.

Just be sure you know what you want. Gibson currently makes a small-bodied semi-hollow, sort of a Les Paul sized 335, which sounds pretty good. You might want to check that out.

[Steve H Graham]

I just bought a Gibson, and the finish would get a B in a high school shop class.

I guess I'm just trying to confirm my own observations. I paid something like $700, including shipping, for a used Japanese ES335 clone, and it's a considerably nicer guitar than the ES195 I just bought. The ES195 has a great fretboard, because Gibson uses a Plek machine, but it's not actually better than a good neck made by human beings.

The Japanese guitar I bought runs for something like $900 new. It's just hard for me to believe the Japanese can make a superior instrument at that price point without cutting corners somewhere. The wood is perfect. The finish is perfect. I don't see any cheap materials or shortcuts anywhere. But the same instrument from Gibson, with finish flaws and glue drips, would cost $3000.

[Halgeir Wold]

Not trying to stir things up here, but are there any logical reason that japanese craftsmen should be inferior to US ones ??? :rolleyes:
From what I've seen of japanese arts and crafts, the answer is NO. They sure are the masters of lacquer work.....

[Steve H Graham]

Not at all. Seems like people have much higher regard for Japanese woodworking than American and European woodworking.

[Halgeir Wold]

I was not trying to diminish one for the other, - not at all. There are solid traditions of high quality work in all camps, although somehow it seems like the respect for quality crafts have diminished conciderably in our western world. Occationally one might even hear the comment " Hand made ?? Yuk! ".. guess it says most or all.......

Reminds me of the story of a little boy who wanted dairy milk, not cows milk....

[george wilson]

Since Gibson moved to Nashville,which was some time ago,they have suffered several problems with the plant and with personnel. They lost many of the old time craftsmen,who stayed in kalamazoo. Not wanting to leave extended families and old friends. Quite understandable. Even back in the 60's,I saw a Humming Bird in a store,with thickness planer marks all over its back! Lacquered over with a thick piano finish,but quite clearly visible. And,that guitar got out of the factory like that! I found a source for pre glued,extremely fine grained Sitka spruce tops. But,they were made of 1/8" thick SLICED veneer,so that the integrity of the wood was shattered by being sliced across the grain. The wood was really crushed between the grains,though it was not visible to the eye. You could bend those tops into a cylinder shape!! They were crap! They cost $1.25 each. Many times cheaper than the usual SAWN top wood I was used to buying. I mean,those tops were CHEAP as DIRT! I also found out that they were the SAME TOPS that KAY was using. Kay was about at the Harmony brand level,WAY below what Gibson had been!

The new factory in Nashville was not air conditioned and humidity controlled. That caused major problems. The new owner was in it for the money,and just about ran the name into the ground. The 70's was a low spot in Gibson's history. I think the 60's was also. And,people are paying a premium for 60's VINTAGE instruments!! If they only knew what I'd found out!!:)

Then,a new owner bought Gibson,and set about trying to rebuild the quality of the instruments. They may still be having problems,though.

As far as Japanese Gibsons are concerned,I have a repro of the 18 1/2" wide Epiphone Emperor,made in Japan for Gibson. I think they only ever made about 50 of these. Gibson apparently could not find wood wide enough to build them. My Epiphone is of immaculate craftsmanship,and is of the highest quality.

The Japanese have a totally different society than ours,and a different work ethic. The way their system is set up,I think the Japanese live to do their work(like I have done all my life. But,I WON'T eat SUSHI!!!). But,in America,it is hard to find people oriented like that,period.

Look at us today: The hamburger flippers want $15.00 an hour. They never bothered to learn salable skills. I have to tell them up to 6 times that I don't want CHEESE on my hamburger. They are trying to make SUMMER jobs into CAREERS. So are the ticket punchers in Williamsburg. They DON'T WANT any responsibility.(They have told me that many times). I never tried to make big money,nor never really cared about it that much. The work was what counted. I don't have expensive habits,or take big vacations(or,vacations at all). I think the Japanese must sort of be this way. Rant over.

[Steve H Graham]

I truly understand your frustration with the burger kids. I order the same McDonald's breakfast over and over, from the same people, and I would say they get it right about 25% of the time. They want us to reward them for failure, so they can be losers their entire lives instead of learning from their mistakes. I am really looking forward to the robot cashiers companies are using to ward off the $15 commandos.

Here in Miami, "bilingual" means "fluent Spanish and four words of English," so they have a tendency to put non-English-speakers at the registers, meaning they are totally unable to communicate with the 25% of the customer base that doesn't speak Spanish. The funniest question I ever got from one of them: "who sandwich?" I still don't know what that meant.

Sometimes the register person is friendly and gets the order right with no repetition. It's kind of sad, because you know those people will be gone in a month. They always move on fast. No competent person has to work at McDonald's very long.

One nice thing about American instruments is that they hold value and appreciate. You really have to buy Japanese guitars right. I think I'm going to blow off my quest for an ES355 and look into getting a Japanese clone with dogear P90s. I still haven't seen a Japanese acoustic I really liked, but the electrics have proven their worth to me.

[Mark Greenbaum]

I have had old Gibbies (63 SG Std; 59 GT-LP std. (both stolen many years ago), and a 2001 GT-LP std (anchor weight)), and I own a Yamaha SG-1000 from early 80's the craftsmanship on the Yamaha is exquisite, and the playability is top notch. New Ibanez are also very well made, though probably in China. New Gibsons - NAH - Oldies before they moved to Nashville, even Norlin made are a better investment. The Heritage guitars (mad e in the old Gibson K'zoo factory by former gibson employees and their children) are also top notch. Get a Japanese lawsuit guitar and be farther ahead of the new deal game. Gibsons have priced themselves out of the contention for most folks. But I can say now that the PLEK every guitar off the line, there's no one better than the next. But they still miss the mark in my books.

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Folks,

It is interesting the connection between guitarists and woodworkers. There seems to be an inordinate number of woodworkers who are guitarists. That is the case here.

I have been playing guitar for close to 50 years. I have been collecting instruments for very near that long. I have owned almost every manufacturer, and certainly my very fair share of Gibsons and of Fenders. I currently own an absolutely gorgeous 1981 Blond ES335 DOT that is one of the nicest guitars you will ever play. I have done my own pant load of work on it to get it there, but it wouldn't have been possible if it hadn't been a very nice instrument to start. I put on a Tonepro's bridge and stop tail, and a Graphtec nut in it. I also changed out he pups to Tom Holmes pickups. Now it is a stunning guitar. I also own a 2003 Les Paul Class 5 Custom Shop that is a great example of a classic Les Paul. Again I outfitted it with TonePros and a new nut and in this case WCR pickups, but the core guitar is tremendous. On the other hand I recently sold a 2012 ES-175 that while very well made, I found lifeless. I had bought it new. I think Gibson is hit or miss in the last 30 years or so.

To the contrary - many of the Japanese Strats I have owned were or lower quality than the American made. This was intentional, but the case regardless. There is no doubt that the Fender company was and is doing some very good work in Corona CA and US made instruments are their top of the line. I have four US Strats that are all the best Strats I have owned and I have owned good Strats all my life. Clapton plays a US current Strat - so does my #1 guitar hero - Jeff Beck. They are playing current models because they are very good guitars. With the possible exception of mass produced Gibsons, I really believe we are in the glory days of guitar manufacture. Makers are producing the highest quality instruments ever made. CNC is a great benefit, as is Plek. Their instruments are consistent and we have some of the best pickup builders ever in guys like Jason Lollar and Lindy Fralin, among many. I own guitars from some of the elite makers today - Suhr and Collings to name a couple. I can tell you the acoustic Collings are incredibly well made guitars. I would challenge you to find a flaw with a magnifying glass and calipers. The Suhr electric I own is equally exceptional. It plays like butter, sounds outrageous, and is one of the best built guitars I have ever owned. And both makers support is outstanding.

So don't despair - while Gibson may be really struggling (they were voted the #1 worst place to work in the United States by some magazine not to long ago...) I think the balance of makers are doing tremendous work. We are seeing the best guitars ever right now. Japanese included, no doubt, but the Americans are doing very very well. My $.02.

JB

[Shawn Pixley]

I think the question you're trying to ask is about Japanese Gibson only. I have two Les Pauls (HB& P90) but for each of these, I must have played a hundred each. Gibson is very inconsistant at best. Both of mine were from the custom shop in the end (and no, I didn't pay list). I did play manyJapanese Gibsons, both here and in Japan. They are more consistent, and generally better. I don't remember the older japanese label for them.

The japanese Gibson made repros of the '50's LP Specials that were very good. Much better than the american version. I don't know as much about the more exotic models.

if your question is more general, "are Japanese instruments more superior?" Then, no. There is no one country that makes the best guitars. Heritage, Paul Reed Smith, and many boutiques in the USA make great instruments. Ibanez has many fine instruments. Lowden, Goodall, Collings, Froggy Bottom, Martin, etc... All make great guitars.

[Steve H Graham]

I have two American Fenders. One--a 1997 Strat--is just about perfect. The other, a fairly recent American Special Telecaster, is also very nice, but I had to go to three stores to find one without major paint defects. I mean MAJOR, like ruts you can actually feel, parallel to the grain.

My favorite guitar is a Chinese Epiphone! It's a P93 Riviera, which is like a cheap ES355 with three dogear pickups and a Bigsby. The pickups were not very good, so I replaced them with Lollars. Now the sound is excellent. The fretboard is a joy to work with. The quality control is very good, too, although you would never mistake it for an expensive guitar. I like it so much I considered getting a Sheraton and putting new pickups in it.

I would recommend Chinese Epiphones to any beginner, with the understanding that the electronics might not be all that great.

[george wilson]

Re: the burger flingers- AFTER I tell them 6 times NO CHEESE,about 1/2 the time I still get cheese and ONIONS(which I REALLY hate,because the "cooks" don't bother to look a little more carefully at the order. $15.00? Bah,HUMBUG!!!!!!:)

A guy I have started teaching guitar to has a Mexican Telecaster. I can't tell that it is inferior in any observable way from a USA made one. I don't know how the pickups compare to a USA made one,but it sounds terrific through my Standel amp. But,what wouldn't?

[Steve H Graham]

I don't know if it's true, but I have read that the wood used for Mexican fingerboards is thinner. I read about some guy sanding through his.

The neck pocket on my "American" Telecaster has "Valdez" stamped on it. Not sure what that's all about.

[Alan Caro]

george wilson,

As I only ever played Classical, I've had limited contact with them new-fangled elctricitalistic ones. But, as a kid I was a quick convert, when bowled over by the first electric I ever played. This belonged to a second cousin in Lousiville, KY who I visited in 1966- age 10. This was a bright red hollow body Gibson with f-holes and all the hardware was gold-plated including what I remember as three pickups. My cousin said it had cost $950 which seemed like a fortune to me. Even though this was from the parallel guitar universe I tried it- some Bach Lute suite movements and I was amazed how easy it was to play. The neck of course is narrower than classical, but there was something about the geometry that gave it a fantastic, easy action. The sound was striking- I wish I'd paid attention tot he amplifier, but I couldn't take my eyes off the workmanship and finish. Ever since that time, I've taken electric guitar more seriously as craft exponents and visited Norms' Rare Guitars in Los Angeles quite a few times as I passed by often. The atmosphere there is fantastic- knowledgable maniac lining up to try Stairway on some $20,000 Tele that van Halen had seen from a distance. The only other electric guitar that glowed with this quality is the 1958 Gretsch copy you made- better than the originals I saw at Norm's.

Another interesting brush with the Fender realm was in Del Mar, CA. In about 1995, I designed a house overlooking the Del Mar racetrack and the next door neighbor was the head Fender designer- sorry forgot his name. He apparently did a lot of work at home but there was a Fender facility in Fullerton about 8 or 10 miles away He had a Silicon Graphics Unix workstation- $50,000 then and he showed me the 3D CAD model of a new Strat and 3D CAD was cutting edge then. He worked in a reclining chair with the keyboard and mouse on a slanted table and the monitor was across the room- a 32" CRT. He could click on a detail of a milled cut-out to let in the pickup or wiring and the designation and properties of each were annotated. After years of visiting the Musical Instrument Maker's shop in Colonial Williamsburg, this looked like NASA had stepped into instrument making.

On a different tack, you mentioned in your last post about the craft tradition and the kind of dissipation of motivation to actually make something. This has been a theme with me as well for many years considering that even in an automated CAD /CAM world where you can load an AutoCAD drawing into a Cad.Cam router /milling system and make some complicated stuff. And now, the world of 3D printing is going to take over. Here is a kind of touching lament "A Fraught Search for Succession in Craftsmanship" (Andrew Plotsky, "The Atlantic" 1.29.16.) from a fellow- George- who sort of accidentally learned hand boot-making and now envisions he is the end of a line and that all these painstakingly axquired skills will only evaporate into thin air when he quits. This touched a little cord for me as I spent those Summers at the boot shop in Colonial Williamsburg and that was a semi-accidental assignment for me too as my interest was instrument making. I had never touched a piece of uncut leather previously and before I left- even though my job was only talking to the fiends we had to refer to as "visitors", through osmosis I eventually made a pair of shoes entirely by hand that I still have. In my view, to learn anything real, you have to be there in the room. And most people will never even look for those rooms in the first place.

Warning: graphic scenes of melancholic boot-making: http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/421533/georges-boots

This is exactly on the themes you mentioned earlier. His would-be apprentices would rather deep fry extruded potato-style poly-emulsion from a 55-gallon drum into French Fries than think and take creative action.

Alan Caro

330985

[george wilson]

alan,I am having trouble figuring out what you are saying!!:)

[Alan Caro]

george wilson,

Yes, sorry, a bit of a ramble. Really, just a general account of watching the changes over fifty years to musical instrument making as a craft - mechanization, computerization, globalization and the enforced idea that the only measure of success or real value is how much money something is worth- Trumpification. Then, adding insult to the original insult, that the people who have spent decades learning how to make something - like the boot-making George, that the knowledge derived from experience will not be passed along. This is then a dissolution of subtlety- the "art" is lost and objects become sort of equalized imitations because machines can do it well enough for those who have never seen the alternative and the result is cheap enough. When a lot of people are never exposed to art and craft they won't be inspired to learn it, they're just as happy in their mind in mindless tasks- an office cubicle and fast food society.

Alan Caro

[george wilson]

I'm trying to pass on some knowledge here,Al.

You may not have found the right customers.:) Fortunately,I have found a few. Much of what I have posted here went to a customer. Wealthy,unfortunately,I suppose to some. But they at least have a real appreciation for good work. I am glad they did,because I can't afford to work for 50 cents an hour.

Like it or not,things have to be priced. That's just how the World is. And,quality costs money. I escaped the cubicle,but too often not the fast food!

Trump has his ideas what quality is. I have mine. We live in 2 different spheres. Room for both.

[george wilson]

Alan,it is not a great feat to make a Gretsch repro better than the originals that fetch ridiculous amounts of money. Gretsch bodies were apparently made in several different locations. Their quality varied wildly. More than any other commercial guitar I can think of. I have a 1964 Anniversary model which has a top that was glued on 1/2" off center! This is obvious when you look at the different distances to the edges that the lower part of the F holes make.

If you look into the body,crammed up under the neck block is a scrap of Gretsch body plywood about 4" square. No effort at all was made to plane this hunk of 1/8" plywood to a taper that remotely matched the curve of the arched back. somehow the neck block has avoided creeping outwards nevertheless !:) It was the first Gretsch I got back in the 80's,when I got the collecting bug.

It has the hi-lo trons,which have the same size shell as the more advanced Filtertrons. Except,instead of having 2 separate coils like the hum bucking Filtertrons,the insides of the pickup housings are half empty since the hi-lo trons have only one coil. And a very thin one at that. Another rather less than honest gimmick they visited upon the public.

However,I honed the frets down,and lowered the strings to within a few molecules' widths of buzzing on them,and it plays quite well. Better than the new Japanese copies being sold under the Gretsch badge today. They have necks that are just too narrow for my large hands.

On the other hand,I have a 1954(I think) Gretsch that is quite a nicely made instrument. Still plywood(but that is an advantage in an electric guitar). The F holes are very neatly bound. It has a decent finish,and rather than suffering from the more usual problem of the neck being set so that too low a bridge would be necessary(if Gretsch bridges came that low!),the neck is tilted back more than necessary,so that the bridge has to be elevated a bit. An advantage if the body ever starts to bend as some do,making the action too high.

I have a another Gretsch,a 1954 Gretsch Country Gentleman whose model number insists that it MUST be a Cadillac Green color(Gretsch COULD have at least selected a more ATTRACTIVE green!),but it is a brown sunburst. I have removed the pickups and checked every place Iavailable on this guitar for a SMIDGEN of green to have been left in a subsequent refinishing. There is none to be found. I am certain that the finish is original. The guitar itself is quite nicely made,though.

In one of my books is a picture of a Gretsch peghead that says "Gertsch". The slanted block letters can fit interchangeably into the spaces punched through the veneer peghead overlay.

Some Gretsch guitars are made of curly maple veneer. Most are plain. No rhyme or reason in it. Setzer's stolen 6120 was curly,I'm pretty sure. So is the Setzer model I have,made in Japan. They CALL it curly maple,but,believe me,I HAVE observed that it is curly ANIGRE. Maple does not have those little pores in the wood! Oh,well,most Gretsch experts fail to identify that the brown veneer strip up the center of the necks is WALNUE. Not whatever they say it is. I forget.

When I was a teenager,I was very pleased to get to play a 6120 Gretsch at a friend of a friend's house. At the time it was a new 1957! I noticed the round wood plug on the heel of the neck and was mystified. That COULDN'T be covering a SCREW ? NO WAY!! Ah yes,it WAS covering a screw ! They didn't trust their dovetail neck joint fitting jobs,did they? Well,it HAS to be there to be authentic,so my 1958 6120 repro,which is the one I made just before those Japanese repros started popping up,has the plug,complete with the screw underneath!!:)

Such are the vagaries of the Gretsch guitar in history. But Chet played one,even though Gretsch couldn't get it through their heads that he was a COUNTRY player,NOT A WESTERN player. So,they started cow branding their guitars,and scratching ill drawn,and OFF CENTER cacti on the mother of toilet seat fingerboards,and cow heads. Chet didn't like the orange color,either,but he was young and thrilled to have his name on ANY guitar at the time,he wrote. At least he got relief when the dark mahogany Country Gentleman came out,sans the Western motifs.(Or is that motives,as the English say)? As might be expected,in spite of all the hoopla that Gretsch heaped upon their guitars in every detail, that dark mahogany stain is nothing more than Mowhawk alcohol based stain. I have a gallon bottle of it,left over when I cut the neck down thinner for a man who is a marvelous player,but has short fingers. It matched perfectly,and blended seamlessly with the original color. Was I aggravated when he SOLD that guitar,which I had worked on for a low price,since we are friendly. I won't be cutting down any more necks for him! He's always trading guitars off. But,he'll never find another one with a neck to fit his hand. I just don't understand some people. I'm sure he didn't need the money.

[george wilson]

Re post #10: My Brian Setzer Gretsch came with a graphite nut. I got rid of it and made an aluminum one ala 1958 model 6120 Gretsch guitars. BECAUSE soft plastic graph tech nuts HURT THE TONE of the open notes.

Bone is acually harder than Ivory both for nuts and bridge saddles because it's harder than ivory. Guess we just have to put up with the down the road greasy,translucent,dirty appearance of the bone.

Gretsch used aluminum on their 1958 model 6120 Chet Atkins guitars because he had seen Selmer Macafferi(sp?) guitars like Django was playing, They had a zero fret. It took Gretsch a fair amount of time to respond to Chet's requests. Probably they had a bunch of non zero fret fingerboards to use up first. And,from what I've seen,Gretsch had their eye on the DOLLAR above everything else. So,to please Chet,they at least installed aluminum nuts instead of the zero fret.

However,when ANYONE else(including Gretsch) installs zero frets,they always use a BIG FAT,TALL ONE. instead of just using a fret the same as the other frets. This makes the string clearance at the 1st fret too high. I spend time filing that big fat zero fret down. It is a nuisance! There is no reason to use such a high fret. It may be,you say,to prevent buzzing. But WHY don't the strings buzz when pressed down on the FIRST fret,if that is true(or rather NECESSARY)? A regular fret would do just fine.

[george wilson]

O.K.,I have repeatedly complained about the quality of the original Gretsch guitars. WHY do I like them ? Well,I DO like the ones that made it out of the factory properly built. I like their shape. I'm particularly aware of the curves of the cut aways on guitars. Gretsches have a nice one. Old Epiphone shapes STINK. Gibson got it right. Particularly on certain models like the Tal Farlow. I like the F holes on Gretschs. But NOT the teeny,shrunk up one silk screened onto Country Gentlemen. (Or stenciled).

So,I'm saying I like the asthetics of Gretsch guitars. And,I also like the TONE of those Filtertron pickups. They are not as powerful as Gibson humbuckers(which have MUCH bigger coils). But,the more lightly wound coils of the Filtertrons give prettier,cleaner high notes,and good bass notes. Rockers like the more powerful Gibsons because it is easier to get them to distort. That is not important today. There are pedals which allow you to do whatever you want anyway. The proof of this is that many play Fender guitars,which,especially the Telecasters,have a VERY small coil,especially in the neck pickup. It's even smaller than those "lipstick tube" pickups that Danelectro used. Even Jimmy Hendricks used a Stratocaster.

Chet did not like the big F holes. He had a D'Angelico that his brother gave him. I never liked the little F holes on those. Chet made a RUBBING on a piece of paper and sent that to Gretsch,recommending they use THAT shape. Gretsch did. But then they had the shape of the D'Angelico F hole MINUS the binding. Which made them entirely too small. I think that no designer was consulted about this. Someone with a decent eye HAD to have made the original shapes for Gretsch guitars. But,he was NOT one of the executives,making decisions in later years,it seems.

I have noticed over the years that Gretsch shapes slightly changed. On LATER 6120's the bodies are "stretched" a bit. Earlier ones are a bit more squat. I prefer the earlier shapes. Why this happened,I have no idea. The stretched ones are still acceptable,but noticeably stretched if you have a god eye.

[Mike Cutler]

Steve

The market for musical instruments is always changing, so I don't think there will be a single answer to your question.
In the 70's, yes I go back that far, some of the guitars coming out of japan were incredible. For acoustics most notably the Suzuki series, with the W5025, being at he top of the pile. If you ever hear of a W5025 for sale, run to buy it!. The Tenada series guitars were also incredible. The D-149 was a beautiful instrument.
I used to own a late 60's Yamaha acoustic that was the equal of anything I've ever played for acoustic jazz. I've always regretted selling that Yamaha.:(
I lost my W5025 in a fire in '78, along with an Ibanez solid body and a Rickenbacker bass, and replaced it with a Martin D-35, in 79'( which I still have). The Suzuki was $250.00 new in '77, the Martin close to $900.00 new. The Martin never had the "punch", through the range, that the Suzuki did,and the Tenada, blew them both away.
I also owned the original Ibanezs', and still own a 1977 Artist 2619. ( It was supposedly owned by Mackey Feary at one time, but that could be a guitar shop tale, as it would have made Mackey and myself it's only owners, based on how long I've owned it. I bought it in '79-'80 in downtown Honolulu.) I've not seen a poplar Ibanez, mine have been maple.
The point being, that at one point in time the Japanese musical instrument had to be heavily subsidized to turn out the quality of some of the instruments that hit the US. Is the quality still dollar for dollar better in Japanese instruments? I doubt it is any longer because the markets have normalized themselves. Production run guitars seem pretty "junky" to me when I look at them, no matter where they're made.

[george wilson]

A correction to a typo I made in post #20,second line: I MEANT that bone was BETTER for tone than ivory because it is HARDER. The downside to bone is that it gets dirty and greasy looking from finger oil over the years.

[Brian Robison]

Gibson Nashville only builds SG's, Les Paul's and Firebirds.