Tips on tails...

[Patrick Walsh]

I have set out to make about 15 drawers hand cutting the dovetails.

I have watched a number of YouTube videos on proper layout techniques and for the most part have that part down.

So the question is this, I imagine other than just plane old practice there has got to be a few tricks of the trade or secretes. For instance cutting to the waste side of your lines is pretty obvious.

My boxes are comprised of sapele sides backs and bottoms using through dovetails. For the first time i am finding this wood fairly dry and splintery. My only previous experiance with sapele is with power tools.

The faces are birdseye maple with half blind dovetails. I am inclinded to think it safer to cut not enough material off remembering that wood will compress. On the other hand with wood like this dry splintery sapele i am nervouse to just pound the tails home and inclind to think i have to nail my layout and cut both my tails and sockets perfectly. I will never be happy if my work requires fill and or tinted this or that to mask my mistakes.

One other problem i am having. I am using a 14% gauge to mark my tails. I am also trying to leave only 1/8" between the tops of the pins and tips of tails.The problem is like this. I cut my tails staying to waste sides of my tails. When i then go to clean my tails up or bring them to my layout lines i find my chisel cant fit to pair the sides down. I cant get in from the top and i cant get in from the faces. Well at least not without widening my 1/8 reveals. My only thought is in order to leave such a small reveal beteeen my tails i will need to just saw exactly to my layout lines. The other problem with this is i invitably end up tearing out a small chunk here and there on the tips of my tails being i cant pair from the top.

Anyway i could go on and on. Hopefully the above will get a conversation started? So far it seems whatever i do i get gaps or missed cuts or whatseems to be poor layout?

Oh i am using a single sided marking knife to do my layout. Again one of the problems i have is getting the knife to register tightly to the sides of my tail board when transfering the info to what will become my pin board. To date i put what will become my pin board in my vise and then lay my tailboard atop it and do my best to hold it steady while i transfer the info.

[Jim Koepke]

One of the things that has worked for me is to design my dovetails around the tools that will be used to make them. It is impossible to get a 1/4" chisel to pare an 1/8" gap.

I have also found it to be a help to use fine toothed saws with a light saw plate.

If tails are done first, get the tails to perfection before marking the pins. I have made my own marking knives out of old plane blades and an old saw blade. It works best if you have a bevel away from the piece being use to guide the knife.

The knife made from a piece of saw blade works best for marking in tight places like when cutting dovetails.

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It doesn't have to be elegant, it just needs to work.

Wood can compress, it can also split. Some folks like the idea of dovetails fitting right off the saw without any test fitting or paring. Bully for them. I have done it that way, but a little paring to fit works fine for me.

You might look at Derek Cohen's site > inthewoodshop.com < he has some good advice on cutting dovetails. I believe Mike Henderson also has a tutorial on cutting dovetails.

Prashun Patel started a post on a walnut cabinet build. He shows a technique of using blue tape, Derek first showed us this, for marking dovetails.

You would be amazed at how many different web sites I have looked at for the "magic silver bullet" of perfect dovetails. There is either some little piece of the puzzle exposed or reaffirmation of what you have already learned to be found at each one.

The best advice is to saw to the line, not through the line. Make sure you are cutting on the waste side of the line. When you mark from the first piece to the second, the line is in the area that is not waste. If a pencil is used, there is likely a little space between the pencil line and where the waste begins.

In all of the things done in woodworking dovetails seem to be the most important place to make sure things that need to be square are square.

In my building potting benches thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?227535-Building-Potting-Benches&p=2375994#post2375994

I show my method of making everything square when marking from the tail to the pin board. It is a single tail joint, but getting the pieces square to each other is of paramount importance.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Rabbet the inside of your tail boards. Like 1/16 inch or less. This makes resting it atop the pin board for marking much steadier.

blue tape is my silver bullet for the week. Ultimately its practice that makes it easier.

for tiny pins you may need to make or buy a smaller chisel. Make sure you get one with beveled sides.

[Don Jarvie]

Jim is right in trying to pare a 1/8 tail with a 1/4 inch chisel. Not going to work well.

Are you using a marking gauge? If not invest in one. The marking gauge will give you a consistent line to saw and pare to. I make the tails and pins the same width as close as I can. I use a bevel gauge to mark out the angles approx 13 degrees. Use a good saw, I have a LN carcuss saw. Saw to the inside of the line so the line just slightly shows. I pare our the waste and check the bottom with a square so it's flat across. I also take the combo sq apart and hold the ruler flat against the tail or pin and put the other part on top of the tail to make sure the pin is cut straight down. You can see if the sides aren't square when you put them together.

Since you you are in Boston look at the North Bennett st school and see if you can take fundamentals of fine WWing. They offer the class nights, weekends or 1 week courses. You learn sharpening, chisel work, using planes, HC dovetail and M&T. I could do none of these and can do all fairly well now. If you want more info PM me. I highly recommend this course.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have all the tools.

Two marking gauges, a proper marking knife a full set of ten LN bevel edge chisels, and a Japanese pull saw. I'm eager awaiting the delivery of a BadAxe dovetail saw.

I just did the other side of that drawer. I made some improvement but still there are two missed cuts. I dont know how i did this. I must not be paying attention closely enough. Out of ten cuts " five tails & five pins" i nailed eight cuts and missed two.

Hopefully tomorrow i can continue my progress and by the time I'm done with the half blinds on the front be mistake free. Being i have fifteen drawers to make i should be a pro by the time im done. I think part of the problem is this sapele. It is really really really brittle and dry.

My first attempt cutting dovetails was just a couple days ago using some small scraps of teak and hard currly maple. I was not having the same problems with splintering edges. I was missing a cut here and there but nothing major.

I am actually thinking of taking a hand tools workshop at the school up in Beverly. It starts next month and meet once a week for three months.

Thank you all.

FYI i misssed the other recent thread where asking about dovetail info till after i had posted.



Jim is right in trying to pare a 1/8 tail with a 1/4 inch chisel. Not going to work well.

Are you using a marking gauge? If not invest in one. The marking gauge will give you a consistent line to saw and pare to. I make the tails and pins the same width as close as I can. I use a bevel gauge to mark out the angles approx 13 degrees. Use a good saw, I have a LN carcuss saw. Saw to the inside of the line so the line just slightly shows. I pare our the waste and check the bottom with a square so it's flat across. I also take the combo sq apart and hold the ruler flat against the tail or pin and put the other part on top of the tail to make sure the pin is cut straight down. You can see if the sides aren't square when you put them together.

Since you you are in Boston look at the North Bennett st school and see if you can take fundamentals of fine WWing. They offer the class nights, weekends or 1 week courses. You learn sharpening, chisel work, using planes, HC dovetail and M&T. I could do none of these and can do all fairly well now. If you want more info PM me. I highly recommend this course.

[Patrick Walsh]

More progress.

Still not perfect but getting better. I cut these ones to my layout lines. What you see is just how they came off the saw.

I botched the layout someone with one tail being about 1/4" smaller.

Plenty of room for improvement but moving in the right direction.

I think part of my problem is my Japanese pull saws tooth. It seems to me it could be much more a fine cut resulting in a cleaner cut and even closer to the lines. Getting the saw started is not so much hard as rough. New saw is in the mail i hope?

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[Don Jarvie]

New saw should make a huge difference. Which ever you cut last, pins or tails you should be cutting on the waste side leaving the line slightly. If you cut on the line they'll be too loose. You can cut the line for whichever you do first since the fit will be due to the 2nd board.

[Prashun Patel]

Patrick. Your tails look fantastic. Each man's aspiration is his own, but I'd be plenty proud of those off the saw.

[Patrick Walsh]

I habe been cutting just to the line.

Another thinng i am thinking with regard to this dry slintery sapele. I am using a traditional marking knife. If i cut right to the line but leave a bit of line tow things happen. One im am left with many of my layout lines and its ugly. I figure when implane my sides to fit my drawer boxes i will take care most if not all of the layout lines. The second thing hese layout lines cut with a marking knife "but left & cut just to" is weaken the fibers of my already splintery wood.

I know the new saw is really going to help. I can tell what i want for working with this wood is a saw with a tiny kerf and very very fine tooth. My japanese pull saw although decent is neither of the above.


New saw should make a huge difference. Which ever you cut last, pins or tails you should be cutting on the waste side leaving the line slightly. If you cut on the line they'll be too loose. You can cut the line for whichever you do first since the fit will be due to the 2nd board.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks for saying so.

They still dont meet my expectations but im sure if i just keep at it in a very short time i will be happy with my abilities.

I have been home sick all week with a brutal cold. The workshop has been calling my name all week. I just gave in yesterday. Now these drawers have my attention like crack! I should be resting but the lure of the shop is winning at the moment.


Patrick. Your tails look fantastic. Each man's aspiration is his own, but I'd be plenty proud of those off the saw.

[Brian Holcombe]

Patrick, when you lay the tail board onto the pin board to mark, I'm sure that you line up the baseline with the inside face of the pin board. If you overlap that slightly it will make the pins slightly larger (just a tiny bit) and make for a compression fit. Don't over do-it with this, just a slight bit (i use the thickness of the line usually).

I also notch the start on the pin board so that I'm cutting next to the line and not cutting the line.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, when you lay the tail board onto the pin board to mark, I'm sure that you line up the baseline with the inside face of the pin board. If you overlap that slightly it will make the pins slightly larger (just a tiny bit) and make for a compression fit. Don't over do-it with this, just a slight bit (i use the thickness of the line usually).

I also notch the start on the pin board so that I'm cutting next to the line and not cutting the line.

In my experience this is a very individual thing - different people have ever-so-slightly-different definitions of "cutting along the waste side of the knife line", and therefore need to bias the baseline to varying degrees to get a good fit. I'm similar to Brian though - I cut right up to the line and therefore overlap a teeny bit when transferring from tails->pins.

[steven c newman]

Ok, for some reason, when I cut a few dovetails, I try to cut the pins first.....and I, out of habit, split the lines, usually on the waste half of the lines.. I use the pins to lay out the tails. I then cut on the waste side, and leave the entire pencil line. I can always pare away what I don't need...harder than#$#@ to replace what was sawn off. I do indeed have an 1/8" chisel, but prefer to use the 3/16" one instead, so that is the narrowest pin part I will use. I am getting better, though..
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And, Pine is a bit harder to do Dovetails in, anyway...

[Patrick Walsh]

Steady progress.

After i got the backs of this one box to a acceptable place i decided to tackly the half blinds for the fronts. I have to boxes cut at this point. Well one box backs only and one box backs and front. I am half considering redoing my first box.

When i cut the tails for my half blinds i decided to gange the two pieces and cut them together. This really worked out nice, i think this is how i will work in the future.

I still have a slight gap on one tail on the face of th tale and drawer. I may just need to clean the joint up a bit better as when i clamp the box this gap goes away. I must say i really enjoy cutting half blinds much better. Last week when i cut my first dovetails i was cutting half blinds and getting much better results than i was just yesterday with through dovetails. Seems weird to me. Ow well is what it is.

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[Patrick Walsh]

Im gonna give your suggestion bellow a try tomorrow.

What do you mean by notch the pin board?

Thank you all for the tips.


Patrick, when you lay the tail board onto the pin board to mark, I'm sure that you line up the baseline with the inside face of the pin board. If you overlap that slightly it will make the pins slightly larger (just a tiny bit) and make for a compression fit. Don't over do-it with this, just a slight bit (i use the thickness of the line usually).

I also notch the start on the pin board so that I'm cutting next to the line and not cutting the line.

[Jim Koepke]

Looking good so far.

My dovetails seem to get better as I go. This has me doing the ones no one will see first. It is also good to warm up by cutting a few first.

Derek Cohen has some good advice on his site about cutting half blind dovetails. One that I use all the time is driving a thin piece into the saw kerfs to finish the cut to the bottom of the pin. I also cut a kerf in the middle of the waste and drive the thin piece into that. It makes chopping out the waste easy.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

If you really want to try something different with your dovetails try this:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?95360-Lovetail-Experiment-amp-Practice

jtk

[Don Jarvie]

One way to have a clean line on the bottom of the pins or tails is once you have made the saw cuts take your chisel and make a small kerf by taking a small chuck of wood. By pushing the chisel into the marking line you create a slight groove for your chisel to sit in to begin chopping. This way you have sheared the initial fibers which allow a clean line. You would only see the marked line on the pins or tails.

they look great to me so keep going. You may be able to the mistakes but no one is going to pull out a draw and comment on the dovetails or the line. We're our own worst enemy!

[David Eisenhauer]

Looks very good from here. How close to the drawer face are you getting the tops of your tails? What is the smallest dimension (narrowest width) of the end pins on the drawer front? I think I can move my tails a little further out and need to give myself a little more beef on the end pins from looking at yours.

[Patrick Walsh]

3/16 to 1/4

End pins are about the same. Hard to say exactly as i used dividers to layout my tails.

I increased both the narrow end of my pins and space between my tails and front of drawer for two reasons.

I incresed the small dimension on my pins as my sepele is dry as can be and very splintery. The hope was adding a 1/8" would help combat the problem.

Then i increased the or went with a larger dimension for from the tips of the pins to the face of the drawer in hopes of not having a blow out. I wanted to get this grouping of four drawers out of the same board for grain matching reasons. I also figured these drawers will probably end up full of heavy tools and get banged around quite a bit so a little more added heft could not hurt.

I still have yet to decide is i should glue up some panels for the drawer bottoms out of the same sepele stock or just use 1/4 plywood. I am leaning toward the sapele. Really strength and longevity are the concern. It will be a real bummer if one of these drawers ever fails and needs repair being all the dovetails.


Looks very good from here. How close to the drawer face are you getting the tops of your tails? What is the smallest dimension (narrowest width) of the end pins on the drawer front? I think I can move my tails a little further out and need to give myself a little more beef on the end pins from looking at yours.

[Patrick Walsh]

One drawer done.

Many to go.

I have been wanting to build a Roubo but keep putting it off due to cost. Seems like i will have my hands full for a while anyhow. Plus i have a few projects i gotta do for the house. Namely 8-10 interior plantation shutters. I am going to build those on the shaper though so they should go quickly. Also a few interior/exterior passage doors also going to build them on machines.

Aywho these drawers have been a project i intended to get to for over a year. I'm not overwhelmed with joy as to how they are coming out but i am also not disapointed so i will call it a wash.

[Patrick Walsh]

Nailed the second drawer today.

Now i'm happy!

I was also able to get the bottom panels glued up. I almost got them in and finished then a router bit snapped. I wont get into that as this is the hand tools sub forum ;)

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[Brian Holcombe]

Very nice work!!

Btw, what's a router bit? :p

[Patrick Walsh]

I was just over reading your medicine cabinet thread. I love your post. The work is so clean as is your shop. I like a tidy shop myself. I think i vacume up at least on the hour when im working.

In response to the router bit comment.

It felt kinda dirty or at least lacking in satisfaction when i went to put the groove on my drawer sides and fronts after the amount of time and care spent with a pull saw, chisel and mallet on the dovetails.

I never tire of jointing and planing on my cmbo machine though. Man do I love that thing!

I still have a number of things i need to add to my power tool collection. Namely a drill press and some very expensive door tooling for my shaper. Once i am done with those purchases shoulder, rabbit and grooving planes in a variety of sizes are all high on the priority list. I think i will go with the ones made in Australia, i think something Gordon?

I also need to make a proper handtool workbench and expect that to cost a pretty penny. As you can see i like fancy wood and i dont do anything half way even if it is just a bench i will destroy.






Very nice work!!

Btw, what's a router bit? :p

[Jim Koepke]

Once i am done with those purchases shoulder, rabbit and grooving planes in a variety of sizes are all high on the priority list. I think i will go with the ones made in Australia, i think something Gordon?

There are a lot of plow planes you could pick up for less than what the likely shipping from Australia would cost.

My favorite plane for drawer and box bottom grooves is a Stanley #50 that set me back all of $25. It didn't have any blades, but that isn't a problem for me. The #50 uses shorter blades than the #45. I had a few blades for it, but for other sizes I have cut a blade from the #45.

BTW your work is looking good.

jtk

[Patrick Walsh]

Got a new router bit ;) and finished up my drawer bottoms.

I made my boxes all about 1/8-3/16 big tall and wide. I then spent way more time than i ever imagined planning one to fit the cabinet.

This is the first time i have ever made a drawer. It is also pretty much the first time i cut a dovetail by hand. I am ashamed to admit how many hours i have into these two drawers to date. I guess in all fairness the stock for the two small drawers is milled up and ready to go. The good news is i really enjoyed the process with the few hand tools i used.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Cheers! Thanks Patrick, sweeping/vacuuming on the hour sounds about right :D

I was only kidding about the router bit, they're handy to have on occasion. The dado planes from HNT Gordon are very handy, they do work best in cross grain work. I don't have everything I'd like for joinery planes, but the right ones can change one's perspective drastically, that HNT Gordon dado plane did it for me, it was eye opening to say the least.

In long grain work I think a router can be fine, even cut them slightly shallow and finish them up with a shoulder plane, but cross grain work is much better with planes, if for nothing else the fact that you will work with battens which will pull the panel flat while you cut the joinery. So you will not need to cut the joinery the second it comes off the jointer.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Your dovetails are looking very nice....

When I do smaller dovetails, I use these:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=46035&cat=1,41504

These detail chisels are of sizes 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, and then two different 1/2 chisels.

I also now own a full set of their PM-V11 bench chisels. The small one starts at 1/8. Before they offered this size, I found a Stanley sweet heart that is 1/8.

Lots of options if you want to do small dovetails.

[Bill McDermott]

Patrick, Beautiful drawer fronts. You did a great job on the joinery. Congrats. One thing that I did not see mentioned that helps me when cutting DTs (and other joints) is to know when and where it's cool to undercut. For example, when chopping to the baseline that you strike across the board to define the bottom of the sockets between the pins, you need some wood right at the line. However, you do not need it to be a straight line across the board. It can dip in and away from square - like a very shallow V. That concept allows me to work more quickly and to get tighter joints. The long grain stays for joint strength and glue surface, but the hidden end grain can frequently be undercut. Good luck on the shutters. That's an ambitious project.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Great looking "shop" drawers, I enjoy the thread.

[Jeffrey Martel]

The drawers/shop are looking good. Your dovetails are certainly better than mine are.

Also, nice tattoos.

[Patrick Walsh]

Jeffery thanks for saying so.

Im pretty happy myself. I have been wanting to build these drawers for many many moons. Originaly i was going to purchases a router jig for the project. I bocked at the cost of one being i could also purchase all the hand tools needed to hand cut tails for about the same amount. I was scrared to go the handcut route out of fear it could take me longer than this first project to figure it out. I also felt like i was cheating myself as a woodworker doing it with a jig.

For some reason when i log into my SMC account many of the responses in my thread all but disappear. A poster up thread mantioned putting a back cut on the end grain of the tails or sockets and that to date nobody had yet to throw this out as a suggestion to me.

I found this insight kinda funny as that is exactly what made my dovetails transition from slight gaps to tight with no gaps. I also had concerns with regard to the intgrity of the joint being compromised. I figured the backcut has to be a pretty comon tactic among those that hand cut dovetails? As a carpenter by trade it is a tactic that i use all the time for various reasons and tasks.

[Jim Koepke]

For some reason when i log into my SMC account many of the responses in my thread all but disappear.

It might have to do with you you have your viewing preferences listed. I do mine in 'hybrid view' that will only show the most recent posts if the little dot next to the title is clicked. Sometimes posts disappear with the "below current level of depth" in the list of posts. Not sure how it all works. Just know that sometimes I have to look around to find it all.


A poster up thread mantioned putting a back cut on the end grain of the tails or sockets and that to date nobody had yet to throw this out as a suggestion to me.

I am not sure what is meant by a 'back cut'. I sometimes notch the wood out for an easy start to the sawing. Sometimes I start across the top and then follow the line down one side and then follow the kerf down the other.

What ever you are doing, it looks like it is working.

jtk

[Matt Evans]

They look good so far! Sapele nearly always crumbles and tears out when I use it. REALLY sharp tools are my suggestion for that part. I keep a strop of the bench when I use Sapele for that reason.

In addition to the chisel "Notch" along the paring line, I knife mark all the lines deeply. I find that the deeper line helps a saw follow, and also helps the tear out problem.

My dovetail chisel is a used up small triangular file that I annealed, ground the teeth off, ground to shape, hardened and sharpened again. It is a little more brittle than I would like, but I only use it on dovetails, and it works perfectly for the more extreme corners on a small 14 degree dovetail.

Tons of good suggestions here though. Everyone finds a way that works for them with time.

[Patrick Walsh]

Not as much progress as i would like this weekend. I lost a full day Saturday to household chores. Another half day today to errands and football related preprations.

I did get my second door planed to fit and sanded out and ready for finish for the most part. I also finished roughing and cutting tomsize the stock for the two smaller drawers. I also got the bottoms glued up for the small drawers.

Hopefully next weekend i can finish the other two drawers. Go easy on ke on the cabinet. I built it out of scrap wood left over from various jobs. At the time i needed some kind of bench and chop saw station. I never envisioning i would build a full fledged shop with the intent of building furniture. The bench of scraps is still not done. To be honest it has a long way to go. Clearly the birdseye is not scrap but the rest is. Mostly its all ramdom off cuts from various mahogany decks i have built. Its probably a mix of maranti and mahogany with some baltic birch plywood and MDF.

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[Patrick Walsh]

Well i am done with round one of the drawer project i started a few weeks ago now. I have four more to go for this specific project. I appreciate thos whom took the time to pass along their advice. I learnt a lot building these drawers. I would say each one planed to fit the cabinet took about 1.5 days maybe more maybe less but not much either way. In the end it was clear. The more tails i cut the better they got. All and all i am vetr happy. To be honest i never thought they would come out as well as they did. They are not perfect and there is a small mistake here and there but nothing that most will ever notice myslef in included.

The ned to dvelop the skill to setup and sharpen my planes with ease may be the biggest lessson learnt. Being new to hand tools at times my biggest struggle was sharpening my #4 smoother and getting it to work as i needed it to.

The project overall has a long way to go still. I need to make a number of face frames, a couple end pannels and five doors. Much of that will have to wait as once i am done with these next four doors my plan is to build a 9' Roubo out of French Oak. When that is done the old bench that abuts this current project at the far end of the photos will be ripped out. That will become a 11' x 33" x 6" ash bench built again in Roubo style. The shelves at the far end will be replaced with a large cabinet to house my hand tools.

Big aspirations and maybe silly to some for a workshop but it keeps me stoked to get up and go to work hacking out custom homes everyday breaking my back so i can come home on the weekend and hone my hand tools skills.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Gorgeous work!

I don't mind shop furniture at all, it makes the time spent more enjoyable.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks for saying so.

I figure it this way.

As a carpenter by trade i have pretty high expectations of myself. Work does not always allow for me to meet those expectations but that is another thread. Building over the top or exuberant shop furniture not only aids in my shop time being more enjoyable but also provides me the opportunity to first hone my hand tool and furniture making skils before i embark on building a piece of furniture intended for my home that i end up wanting to throw out as i cant stand the sight of it.

This way i can say "eh its in my shop, chances are its gonna get beat to crap anyway so if it is not perfect what are tou gonna do"...


Gorgeous work!

I don't mind shop furniture at all, it makes the time spent more enjoyable.

[Jim Koepke]

I look at shop furniture in a few ways. Some reminds me of my mistakes and how they have become corrected. Others remind me of how far my skills have come over the years.

jtk

[Patrick Walsh]

Everywhere i look i see mistakes :)


I look at shop furniture in a few ways. Some reminds me of my mistakes and how they have become corrected. Others remind me of how far my skills have come over the years.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

Very nice drawers and what is wrong with making shop furniture? Beats sitting in front of the TV. It's your time, your shop, your tools. Go Patrick go.

[Patrick Walsh]

Can anyone tell me about working with ebony.

Specifically i want to laminate some teak and ebony together to make some drawer pulls or knobs. I'm not sure if i will turn them or fab them in some other manner. I dont have a lathe so if i turn them im gonna have to purchase a new toy.

Clearly i like toys however i only like really really nice toys so i am not inclined to purchase a lathe as of yet. OneWay is pretty much all that is on my radar and thats a big purchase. I suppose i could purchase a Jet mini lathe for the time being and sell the Jet later. That kinda feels wasteful though.

I also want to inlay the fence or maple scale to my miter saw with a fair amount of ebony also. I am thinking the full length so like 9' and at least a 1" strip and maybe 1/4" deep. Maybe the whole face 1/4" deep i dont really know yet?

Can i work ebony with a sharp plane or do i need to sand it?

[Shawn Pixley]

Can anyone tell me about working with ebony.

Can i work ebony with a sharp plane or do i need to sand it?

A nicely sharpened plane works well on Ebony. I use a Bailey#3 with a Hock aftermarket blade. But a good old Stanley plane blade should work as well (the blade that came with the plane was too pitted). Set the cap iron properly and ensure the blade is sharp!

[Patrick Walsh]

Shawn,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Should i be anymore concerned gluing ebony to teak than normal when working with teak. How does ebony deal with glue i guess is what i am asking.

[Don Dorn]

They look very good to me. The more you do it, the better they will be. I'm a pins first (ala Frank Klausz) guy which I'm seeing definitely puts me in the minority. Therefore, since the tails are last in my case, it is a 90 degree cut, so I cheat and use the bandsaw (free hand) simply for speed.

In truth, while we all certainly strive to make them as nice as possible, they don't have to be perfect in order to be functionally sound. We do it more for decorative reasons while the old boys did it for function and many times painted over them. In your case, I think you are certainly on top of it. In six months, you'll wonder how you ever struggled.

[Shawn Pixley]

With ebony or teak, I wipe with acetone before gluing. I use TB III (ocasionally epoxy) for glue.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have yet to try pins first. I have a couple pin boards that turned out great on another project and the tails ended up on the slim side with gaps in a couple places. I was considering cutting new tail boards if for nothing else practice. I figure i can also save a smalll all be it insignificant box project that i was at one time pretty happy with.

I can see how in a number of months i will look back and think what was the big deal this is so easy. On the other hand right now i still clearly have a few things to work out.

For instance when i chop the waste on through and half blind dovetails i at times can see where i cut past the line on the inside of my boxes. I use a square block placed right to my layout line as a guide for my chisel when i chop my waste and still i cut beyond the layout lines on the backs of my boards at times. It is obvious what is going on and a simple fix. Non the less as careful as i am this keeps happening from time to time. I would say 1 out of 6-7 tails i get this result.

Also little things or rather major things like your box sides, fronts or backs drying and twisting a little really screws things up. Clealry i start with very dry wood and let it acclimate yadda yadda yadda. Regardless out of these four drawers i had to re cut 2 backs as they had twisted over a period of days resulting in drawer boxes that did not sit flat.

Anywho its all good fun and rewarding seeing the fruits of ones labor when attempting to develop a new skill.




They look very good to me. The more you do it, the better they will be. I'm a pins first (ala Frank Klausz) guy which I'm seeing definitely puts me in the minority. Therefore, since the tails are last in my case, it is a 90 degree cut, so I cheat and use the bandsaw (free hand) simply for speed.

In truth, while we all certainly strive to make them as nice as possible, they don't have to be perfect in order to be functionally sound. We do it more for decorative reasons while the old boys did it for function and many times painted over them. In your case, I think you are certainly on top of it. In six months, you'll wonder how you ever struggled.

[Jim Koepke]

For instance when i chop the waste on through and half blind dovetails i at times can see where i cut past the line on the inside of my boxes. I use a square block placed right to my layout line as a guide for my chisel when i chop my waste and still i cut beyond the layout lines on the backs of my boards at times. It is obvious what is going on and a simple fix. Non the less as careful as i am this keeps happening from time to time. I would say 1 out of 6-7 tails i get this result.

The wedge action of the bevel tends to push the chisel toward the base line no matter how hard one tries to avoid it. Many woodworkers chop away from the line and then pare to the line.

Not sure about your "back of the board, beyond the layout" cause. My experience with this was mostly from trying to chop from one side. I saw a person chop the waste from one side without removing the full depth of the waste. They made a V-notch a hair away from the base line about halfway through the workpiece. Then it was flipped over and the same was done from the other side. The wood that was left on the tail or pin supported the waste as it was chopped from the other side. Then a quick paring half way from each side made for a good looking fit.

If this sounds confusing, let me know and I will take some pictures.

jtk

[Patrick Walsh]

That makes sense. I follow all of it.

Actually i have tried chopping a little from each side and all from one.

I was motivated to try the chop all from one side as i kept get hollow tear out in the middle of my tails. One time resulting in weakened wood grain so when i did my test fit i got some tearout or a large splinter along the base of my layout line.

With a sharp chisel and that guide black my success rate chopping all from one side is pretty good. I really like the nice smooth side to side finish vrs. torn fibers in the middle of my tales. I know you cant see them on e put together but i know ;)


The wedge action of the bevel tends to push the chisel toward the base line no matter how hard one tries to avoid it. Many woodworkers chop away from the line and then pare to the line.

Not sure about your "back of the board, beyond the layout" cause. My experience with this was mostly from trying to chop from one side. I saw a person chop the waste from one side without removing the full depth of the waste. They made a V-notch a hair away from the base line about halfway through the workpiece. Then it was flipped over and the same was done from the other side. The wood that was left on the tail or pin supported the waste as it was chopped from the other side. Then a quick paring half way from each side made for a good looking fit.

If this sounds confusing, let me know and I will take some pictures.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Patrick, you can probably ditch the guide block for half blinds. They really don't benefit from it, if anything slightly undercut is probably ideal.

On through dovetails I use the guide block, trick is not to use it except for that last little tiny smidgen before the line. To avoid the wedging effect that Jim points out.

I tend to use the technique he mentions as well, but generally on larger dovetails (3/4" thick and thicker).

[Patrick Walsh]

Good tips,

Through my trials and tribulations i have come to much the same conclusion. I tend to chop without the block then move the block into place for that last 1/16-32nd. Sometimes i chop from both sides other times only one side. I back cut the sockets of my half blinds always.

From time to time my tailed drawer sides will not pull tight to my socketed half blind drawer faces. I cant figure why being i know i backcut everything and made sure no small pieces got left behind in my sockets to hold things up.

I suppose the reality is i am missing something, or rather something is being left behind that need be paired away or i would not be having this problem.

The good news is i have four more alomst identical drawers to begin building this weekend hence plenty more opportunity to learn. I think as another poster suggested i am at about 1.5 days or likee 8-10 total per drawer milled, built, planed to fit the case and prepped for finish.






Patrick, you can probably ditch the guide block for half blinds. They really don't benefit from it, if anything slightly undercut is probably ideal.

On through dovetails I use the guide block, trick is not to use it except for that last little tiny smidgen before the line. To avoid the wedging effect that Jim points out.

I tend to use the technique he mentions as well, but generally on larger dovetails (3/4" thick and thicker).

[Brian Holcombe]

Take a look at the blade in your marking gauge, if it is beveled on the outside than your lines may be fooling you, so to speak. Meaning you may think your cutting your baseline, but in fact are cutting past the baseline if you are removing the line entirely.

Outside of that it's most likely that something is above the baseline.

You're turning out excellent results, four more drawers and you're going to be a machine.

Dont worry about the time involved, it speeds up rapidly.