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Judson Green
01-27-2016, 4:12 PM
Was wondering how many of you lift the plane when your pulling it back. I'll do it most of the time when I'm working an edge, but when I'm doing a larger surface like a table top I seem not to.



Thoughts?

Jim Koepke
01-27-2016, 4:27 PM
Hogging off wood with a scrub plane there isn't a need to pick up the plane. It is faster to not lift the plane.

When working with something like a Stanley 45, it is sometimes best to lift the plane before the end of the stroke. This is due to the planing starting at one end and working back. The starting point gets to shape before the rest of the work. Lifting the plane toward the end of the stroke prevents over cutting the shape. I speculated that this might be why planes like the Stanley 45 have rounded toes.

If you look at a lot of old planes you will notice worn toes. My guess is workers would lift the back of the plane on the back stroke but drag the toe.

jtk

glenn bradley
01-27-2016, 5:20 PM
I release the pressure on the return so there is a slight raising but, unless you were a hand tool user I don't know that you'd notice while watching me.

Tom M King
01-27-2016, 5:43 PM
I lighten up, but don't lift up.

Glen Canaday
01-27-2016, 6:49 PM
What Tom said.

I lift up a little, but I don't inhale. Heh.

It really depends. On a flat surface I'm bad at lifting. I just relax on the pressure. On an edge the plane comes completely off. I am guessing I am subconsciously more aware of the precision on the edge, mostly because I'm jointing. Which ties back to the inhale quip above, even though it wasn't intended...

Patrick Chase
01-27-2016, 9:20 PM
Was wondering how many of you lift the plane when your pulling it back. I'll do it most of the time when I'm working an edge, but when I'm doing a larger surface like a table top I seem not to.

Thoughts?

I minimally lift the heel as Jim described.

Brian Henderson
01-27-2016, 9:38 PM
I don't put any pressure on the sole on the return stroke but I certainly don't pick the plane up.

Bill Houghton
01-27-2016, 10:36 PM
I doubt it makes much difference, and the lift is measurable in 32nds of an inch, but there's less friction if the plane's in the air.

Jim Davis
01-27-2016, 10:59 PM
I do about like the average of the above comments. Certainly a lot less pressure.

It does seem to me that, since the plane iron edge is lower than the sole, dragging it backward would wear the back/bottom of the edge.

Nick Stokes
01-27-2016, 11:04 PM
I may be in the minority. But I sometimes find that by dragging the blade back across the work, I can hear/feel when the blade has gotten past the front edge of the workpiece... Such that, I have pulled the plane back far enough that the return stroke is over, and I can make another pass forward.

Robert Engel
01-28-2016, 7:41 AM
Only with a smoothing plane when going for final finish. I totally lift plane off wood and do next stroke.

Bigger planes I just drag it back. I don't think it affects the blade much.

You'll see tilting the plane on return stroke advocated by many, but IME this can leave marks on wood.

Brian Holcombe
01-28-2016, 8:23 AM
I lift the plane and remove the shaving.

Patrick Chase
01-28-2016, 12:25 PM
I lift the plane and remove the shaving.

Don't forget to measure it... :-)

mike holden
01-28-2016, 12:35 PM
I don't lift up, but I don't press down either. When pulling back, I am not pressing down. Does that count as lifting? I am lifting pressure but not lifting the plane up.
In any case, I don't think it makes a difference.

Zach Dillinger
01-28-2016, 1:18 PM
I don't lift up, but I don't press down either. When pulling back, I am not pressing down. Does that count as lifting? I am lifting pressure but not lifting the plane up.
In any case, I don't think it makes a difference.

+1 on all accounts.

Prashun Patel
01-28-2016, 1:29 PM
Depends. I try to lift the heel and drag back, but on heavy flattening/scrubbing, I don't think about it.

Daniel Rode
01-28-2016, 2:30 PM
I drag the plane back almost all the time. No downward pressure. Sometimes I remove the shaving at the end of the stroke, some times not.

Brian Henderson
01-28-2016, 3:29 PM
I drag the plane back almost all the time. No downward pressure. Sometimes I remove the shaving at the end of the stroke, some times not.

I do only when they either start to clog the plane or get in the way, otherwise I never clear the shavings.

Michael Ray Smith
02-01-2016, 1:51 PM
If you look at a lot of old planes you will notice worn toes. My guess is workers would lift the back of the plane on the back stroke but drag the toe.

jtk

That's an interesting thought, Jim. In flattening the soles of old planes, I've often noticed that the toe was higher than the rest of the sole. I assumed they made that way intentionally, but maybe they were just worn. Or both.

Warren Mickley
02-01-2016, 2:44 PM
I made a jack plane in 1978, the only jack plane I have used since that time. I use the Jack plane on rough lumber. The front part of the plane naturally gets more wear because the wood is rougher before it hits the iron than after. The front of the plane is now 1/8 less in height than the back. In these 38 years it has always been completely lifted between strokes, never dragged. I have always lifted planes since 1962

I did an experiment last week with a smoothing plane. I set the plane to take about a .001 shaving and dragged it backwards on a 18" piece of hard maple 130 times. I used minimal pressure. Afterward the plane was so dull that it had trouble getting a bite, just would skid across the wood. Once the iron was sharpened again I took 130 shavings in the normal way and it was still sharp after the 130 passes on the same wood. I have long thought that dragging the iron was more dulling than planing. It is very painful to watch someone abusing the iron in this way.

Curt Putnam
02-01-2016, 2:50 PM
That dragging the iron dulls seems logical, I think. Brings up the question of why, more or less precisely?

Judson Green
02-01-2016, 3:11 PM
I made a jack plane in 1978, the only jack plane I have used since that time. I use the Jack plane on rough lumber. The front part of the plane naturally gets more wear because the wood is rougher before it hits the iron than after. The front of the plane is now 1/8 less in height than the back. In these 38 years it has always been completely lifted between strokes, never dragged. I have always lifted planes since 1962

I did an experiment last week with a smoothing plane. I set the plane to take about a .001 shaving and dragged it backwards on a 18" piece of hard maple 130 times. I used minimal pressure. Afterward the plane was so dull that it had trouble getting a bite, just would skid across the wood. Once the iron was sharpened again I took 130 shavings in the normal way and it was still sharp after the 130 passes on the same wood. I have long thought that dragging the iron was more dulling than planing. It is very painful to watch someone abusing the iron in this way.


Warren, thanks for doing and sharing this experiment with us. I for one will try and correct my technique.

Matt Knights
02-01-2016, 3:17 PM
Only time I ever lift off is when taking really fine shavings, I have found that if I don't lift off then the shavings get pulled back through the mouth of the plane and then jam under the plane. I really don't see how pulling the plane back across the wood will blunt the blade as claimed by some, if it does it cant be that noticeable.

Matt

Jim Koepke
02-01-2016, 3:59 PM
Warren, thanks for doing and sharing this experiment with us. I for one will try and correct my technique.

+1 on this Warren.


That dragging the iron dulls seems logical, I think. Brings up the question of why, more or less precisely?

It is likely somewhat like over stropping having the effect of dubbing a blade. With stropping one is trying to keep the flat of the back or bevel on the surface. With dragging a plane backwards it is mostly the edge of the blade in friction with the surface.

jtk

Daniel Rode
02-01-2016, 4:51 PM
I have heard the claim that dragging the plane backward did not dull the iron and may, in fact, sharpen the iron slightly. The person who said it, was a respected woodworking teacher. It sounded off to me at the time, but I didn't give it much thought. Other information I've picked up from this person has been great.

Warren's experiment is, IMO, pretty clear and it matches what I thought intuitively. I usually find decades of practical experience particularly convincing.

As a result, I'm also going to try to improve my technique and lift the plane on the return stroke.

Thanks again, Warren!

Pat Barry
02-01-2016, 5:51 PM
I did an experiment last week with a smoothing plane. I set the plane to take about a .001 shaving and dragged it backwards on a 18" piece of hard maple 130 times. I used minimal pressure. Afterward the plane was so dull that it had trouble getting a bite, just would skid across the wood. Once the iron was sharpened again I took 130 shavings in the normal way and it was still sharp after the 130 passes on the same wood. I have long thought that dragging the iron was more dulling than planing. It is very painful to watch someone abusing the iron in this way.
Warren, please clarify the first statement regarding your 130 pass experiment for the record. Was that 130 return passes only, or 130 bi-directional passes? I could see that the return passes ended up causing the plane edge to roll over and dull after that much abuse. I wonder if the back and forth would realize the same result?

Mel Fulks
02-01-2016, 6:04 PM
My thanks to Warren,too .Knowing the expiriment was done by someone highly skilled is a real convincer. If I did the expiriment I would not trust result because of unintended variables.

Warren Mickley
02-01-2016, 6:34 PM
About the experiment- I actually turned the plane around and pushed it backwards with less than normal pressure and lifted it on the return stroke; it did not cut normally at all during the experiment. So it showed that just dragging in the reverse direction dulled the iron. It is possible that the iron would have fared better if it was held constantly on the wood going back and forth. At the end it acted like plane where there was not enough clearance angle, so I presume there was a pretty good wear bevel parallel to the sole.

I would have experimented more with different numbers of strokes or different woods, but I found it very painful to carry out the experiment, against all instincts. It also seemed that the iron had to be sharpened several times before it was returned to its normal feel.

Pat Barry
02-01-2016, 7:39 PM
About the experiment- I actually turned the plane around and pushed it backwards with less than normal pressure and lifted it on the return stroke; it did not cut normally at all during the experiment. So it showed that just dragging in the reverse direction dulled the iron. It is possible that the iron would have fared better if it was held constantly on the wood going back and forth. At the end it acted like plane where there was not enough clearance angle, so I presume there was a pretty good wear bevel parallel to the sole.

I would have experimented more with different numbers of strokes or different woods, but I found it very painful to carry out the experiment, against all instincts. It also seemed that the iron had to be sharpened several times before it was returned to its normal feel.
Thanks for clarifying Warren. Dragging the plane back certainly accelerates the blade wear and I bet that it wears at least twice as fast as compared to lifting on the return stroke as you and others have noted as a best practice.

Patrick Chase
02-01-2016, 11:52 PM
I have heard the claim that dragging the plane backward did not dull the iron and in fact may, in fact, sharpen the iron slightly. The person who said it, was a respected woodworking teacher. It sounded off to me at the time, but I didn't give it much thought. Other information I've picked up from this person has been great.

Woodworking is full of creative, virtuoso-level practitioners who succeed despite the fact that they have some exceedingly strange ideas about how the world works.

I think Warren hit the nail on the head here. I'd never bothered to try the experiment he did, but that's exactly what I would expect to happen and why I've always lifted my blades between strokes (though being lazy I allow the nose of the plane to lightly drag). Thanks, Warren!

Patrick Chase
02-01-2016, 11:54 PM
I would have experimented more with different numbers of strokes or different woods, but I found it very painful to carry out the experiment, against all instincts.

Yeah, the sensation of dragging a blade like that is right up there with "fingernails on a chalkboard" for me.

Kyle Iwamoto
02-01-2016, 11:59 PM
Another big THANKS to Warren! I'm far from a Neander, but I do suffer from that dreaded plane collecting disease. I try to take care of my planes even if I don't know how to use them. I do always try to take the plane off the surface...... Never seem to do it all the time.

Jim Koepke
02-04-2016, 7:38 PM
Today it came to me why I lift a plane on the back stroke.

While planing against a stop on the bench, on one back stroke with the plane on the work. It moved the work back from the stop.

Good reason to lift it off the work.

jtk

Daniel Rode
02-04-2016, 9:14 PM
As soon as I read this I realized that I use a planing stop often and when I do, I always lift the plane completely. I had been thinking only of planing when the board is secured but at least 1/2 the time I use a stop.

Today it came to me why I lift a plane on the back stroke.

While planing against a stop on the bench, on one back stroke with the plane on the work. It moved the work back from the stop.

Good reason to lift it off the work.

jtk