Precision square - a bit of buyers remorse.

[marty shultz]

Do you ever find what you were looking for after you settled for something else?

A couple of years ago I needed a precision straight edge and triangle to setup a Felder combination machine. I wanted a triangle more than a framing square for a couple of reasons: 1) It's much more likely that a triangle will stay square if it gets bumped or dropped and 2) Triangles have a built in 45 degree reference which I would use.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a large triangle. I ended up getting Woodpeckers one-time-tool 16" x 26" framing square. The framing square isn't bad; it's just not as useful as a triangle.

This is the triangle (http://www.lambtoolworks.com/products.html) I really wanted. I didn't find it on my original search.

The dilemma: should I sell my square and get the triangle?

[Denis Kenzior]

Marty,

I have Brian's triangle. It is explicitly designed to set up sliders. So if this is your primary use case, I'd say go buy the triangle and don't look back.

I also own a smaller version of the Woodpecker's square. It does come in handy in many situations as well. 16x26 might be a bit too large for those though.

[Matt Day]

I've been looking for a large square, and I think the Woodpeckers is the one I tried to get but it wasn't available. Thanks

[Craig Behnke]

I have the Lamb triangle and I really like it for dialing in my slider. I constantly swap out tools when I find something I believe will be better suited to my task...I sell what I don't need/want and buy the better one. Rarely do I regret the dollars lost when I do that, but,...everyone is different.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Buyers' remorse after buying a tool? What's that? :D

Buy the triangle. Keep the square. Because 3 days AFTER you sell the square, you'll need it.

[Greg R Bradley]

Buyers' remorse after buying a tool? What's that? :D

Buy the triangle. Keep the square. Because 3 days AFTER you sell the square, you'll need it.
Sell at tool? How do you do that unless you have two of something?

I can't believe he doesn't need it at least once every 3 days. One of my most used tools.

[Chris Padilla]

Buyers' remorse after buying a tool? What's that? :D

Buy the triangle. Keep the square. Because 3 days AFTER you sell the square, you'll need it.
This one right smack here. :D Having high quality (i.e. $$$$!!) setup tools is money well spent. You want that piece of woodworking equipment dialed in to the 9s as best you can and you'll smile every time you work with it. Well worth it.

[Jon Endres]

Dunno about the square, but a high-quality drafting triangle (ALVIN, STAEDTLER-MARS) is about all I ever use for setup. You can get them as big as 24" I believe.

[lowell holmes]

Dunno about the square, but a high-quality drafting triangle (ALVIN, STAEDTLER-MARS) is about all I ever use for setup. You can get them as big as 24" I believe.

I agree with Jon. As a matter of fact I have large triangles.

http://www.engineersupply.com/Alvin-Fluorescent-Professional-Acrylic-Triangle-30-60-90.aspx

[johnny means]

I say ditch the squares for setting up a slider. Using the five cut method with large sheets of plywood will allow for much tighter tolerances to be achieved. Especially, since you have no real reference surface to square to on a slider.

But still keep your old square and buy the new. You can never have too many ways to measure or square.

[Sam Murdoch]

That big Woodpecker square is an excellent tool for use with a track saw guide rail. I use mine all the time and would be frustrated without it.
I'm inclined to agree with this suggestion - "Buy the triangle. Keep the square. Because 3 days AFTER you sell the square, you'll need it."
Good advice :)

[Jim Dwight]

I use drafting triangles too. Inexpensive and accurate. But recently I bought one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Tools-Rafter-Square-12-Inch-1794467/dp/B005XUHIA2/ref=pd_sim_469_12?ie=UTF8&dpID=51%2BNnqObDuL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR159%2C160_&refRID=0AYYY6520QVPZNT8Q0WK

It's just a 12 inch speed square. But I find it very handy. Much better for squaring a workpiece than the drafting trangles due to the thickness. I also use smaller engineers squares when they are big enough for the task at hand as well as smaller speed squares.

[Frederick Skelly]

Do you ever find what you were looking for after you settled for something else?

This is the triangle (http://www.lambtoolworks.com/products.html) I really wanted. I didn't find it on my original search. The dilemma: should I sell my square and get the triangle?

If you can afford the triangle that you truly want, then yes - sell the square and buy the triangle. Don't feel bad about any money you might lose there - you bought the square because you couldn't find what you wanted and needed a tool. You should get most of your money outtavthat square, Marty.

[Martin Wasner]

I say ditch the squares for setting up a slider. Using the five cut method with large sheets of plywood will allow for much tighter tolerances to be achieved. Especially, since you have no real reference surface to square to on a slider.

This is the only way to square a panel saw, vertical or otherwise. Though I would recommend using melamine over plywood. Plywood is never as flat, and particle board doesn't carry any tension that can be relaxed by cutting it. My panel saw was originally dialed in at within .002" in almost a 48" cut. Borderline impossible to get better results than that.

[Denis Kenzior]

While the 5-cut method is pretty accurate due to 4x error magnification, it is a bit wasteful on time and material. Especially if you need to tweak the cross cut fence multiple times chasing that 'perfect' setting. With that triangle and a good indicator you can get to within .001 / 20" in minutes.

[peter gagliardi]

The 5 cut method is every bit , and more accurate than a 16" square. I say 16", because it is only really as big as the shortest side. Most people that use the 5 cut method have plenty of full sheet, and partial sheet stock hanging around.
Being able to measure to .002" over 48" is more than plenty accurate for wood based cabinet work.
Either way, you lose time checking and setting for square- with sheet stock, its usually at arms length from saw. With a metal square, its usually further away in the bench area. In both instances, you have to put the medium- square or sheet on the saw, check, make cuts, check, adjust, etc.....
But hey, i am not arguing about not getting a tool, by all means, if you can justify it, you can have it.

[lowell holmes]

Showing my ignorance . . . . . .

What is the five cut method and what is a slider??:confused:

[Cary Falk]

I used to use the 5 cut method(or 4 cut method for some people). It was a bit tedious. I bought the Woodpecker 26" square and it is easy peasy to cut and measure. I have the Jessem slider so square at 26" is close enough for me. I also have the large Woodpecker carpenter/speed square so I say keep both.

[Martin Wasner]

Showing my ignorance . . . . . .

What is the five cut method and what is a slider??:confused:

Take half a sheet of material, set it on the rack, (I don't know what you'd call it on a slider, fence? I think in vertical panel saw). Make a cut, rotate and set the cut on the rack/fence. Repeat until you cut off the first cut. Measure that drop with a caliper on the ends. On a slider you adjust the fence on the sliding portion, on a vertical panel saw you adjust the gantry so that the last drop is the same width top to bottom. When is same or close enough your saw is cutting square.

Dennis is blowing the waste out of proportion. You need to drop a full kerf and that's it up to your last cut, then you want to drop about half an inch. I've spent less on melamine squaring the Striebig than any square costs. It allows for a much finer adjustment, and there's no doubt when it's on, it's on.

I should try it with a 5x5 of mdf when I have to move it next summer, but as Peter said, it's well within tolerance for anything wood. A sheet of plywood will spring more than that just ripping it in half.

[Al Launier]

Would this interest you?
eBay item# 301683535982

[peter gagliardi]

One thing i failed to mention about the .002" over 48" is that that needs to be divided by 5 to see the true accuracy these are capable of.
That is metalworking tolerance for a medium that takes on and gives off moisture thus changing more than the tolerance of the cut with humidity swings.

[Denis Kenzior]

Don't get me wrong, the 5 cut method is very accurate and I've used it for years. But its a pain in the ass. You have to have a suitable piece of junk MDF / melamine on hand, run the 5 cuts. Measure. Get out your dial indicator to bump the cross-cut fence by a certain amount. Make another 5 cuts. Realize you moved the fence in the wrong direction. Move it again, run 5 cuts. Measure. Run 5 cuts. You get my point.

With the triangle you get instant gratification. Put an indicator on it. Move slider forward, move backward. Adjust until the reading is the same. Gets you within a good tolerance very quickly. You can still chase unicorns with the 5-cut method afterwards if you want. The light industrial type sliders like Hammer, Felder, Minimax, Knapp tend to get out of alignment fairly easily. So you adjust often. The triangle can be used to set the miter stops as well, so it is not a one-trick pony.

More than one way of doing things is all I'm saying. To each his own.

[Martin Wasner]

How often does a slider go out of square? After the initial setup of my panel saw, I had to adjust it twice in five years. It's bolted down on an exterior wall and we had a year with psychotic frost and it was pushing the building around. Even then, I adjusted the frame, but didn't touch the gantry. I had to readjust after the frost went out and things settled back into place. I'm sure after five years and a couple thousand sheets it's not within the original tolerance, but it's not off enough that I notice. The new shop it's getting placed well inside the wall.

[Howard Acheson]

What are the uses for the triangle? This may be a much less costly alternative.

No matter how much you spend for a device, you still don't know if it is square. I ran a large tool and die shop and we purchased a number of Brown & Sharp and Starrett devices and some of them were not "square". We had "standards" that our quality department periodically had validated by an outside service that we then used to verify the worker's tools.

One day, one of our designers brought in two plastic drawing triangles he had purchased at a local art supply store. He had them compared to our standards and they were as accurate as the tools could measure. The triangle cost a couple of dollars each. They would certainly serve very well as the "standard" in any woodworking shop to validate and/or adjust other devices.

An excellent way to validate the accuracy of the plastic squares is to use two squares on a flat surface. Get a $10-12 plastic 30-60-90 drafting square. To prove it's exactly 90°, take two to a glass counter, put the shorter legs on the counter and face the longer legs away from each other and butt them together (like a teepee). If the legs exactly butt, you can assume you have two perfect 90° angles. Using one of the plastic squares, do the same thing using your other tools. Any that mismatch, means that the tool is not square. You can also take the plastic square with you whenever you go to purchase another tool. Keep your "standard" somewhere where it doesn't get banged up.

Finally, remember that the wood you are using will expand and contract a couple of thousands from one day to the other. Does't pay to get too uptight.

While we are at it, I also only purchase the cheapest of adjustable squares. I square them with a drafting triangle and an auger file until they are square across 10". And I own a Bridge City square that isn't that accurate. Stainless steel machinist's squares are only square until you drop them. I have had several over the years and each has found a away to drop to the floor.

The key is to NEVER use your best square on for day to day measuring. Use it only as a reference tool to verify your other day to day tools.

In a comparison test reported in Fine Woodworking Magazine a couple of years ago, the Stanley 46-123 square was awarded the best value. It's much less expensive than a Starrett and just as accurate.

[John TenEyck]

What are the uses for the triangle? This may be a much less costly alternative.

An excellent way to validate the accuracy of the plastic squares is to use two squares on a flat surface. Get a $10-12 plastic 30-60-90 drafting square. To prove it's exactly 90°, take two to a glass counter, put the shorter legs on the counter and face the longer legs away from each other and butt them together (like a teepee). If the legs exactly butt, you can assume you have two perfect 90° angles.



That's the same approach I use to do a quick check to see if my saws are cutting square. I cut two piece on one side of the blade, flop one over to be the book match of the other, and push the cut faces together with their bases against a common straight edge. Any gap is obvious. Same thing for checking 45's. Make two cuts on the same side of the blade, flip one face down and push the cut faces back together. Plastic drafting triangles are all I've needed along with some simple verification cuts for the furniture and cabinets I make. I can see how a higher level of sophistication would be nice if your business is cutting really long or wide panels, however. But you still need to verify the setup by cutting test parts.

John

[Denis Kenzior]

Sounds like you're running a whole different level of machinery. This is not meant for industrial panel saws which you can set once and expect them to take the abuse. It is meant for lighter duty sliders, like Hammer, Felder 5 & 7 series, Minimax, Knapp, etc.

My Hammer K3 would go out of square if I looked at it funny. Its a nice saw but a bit lightweight. The Knapp I have now holds its settings pretty well if I'm careful. But the way it is designed, it will get out of square if you give it a good bump in the right place. I get the triangle out pretty often, like weekly, if I'm in the middle of a project. I know guys who start their day with the triangle and sanity check their settings.

[George Bokros]

That's the same approach I use to do a quick check to see if my saws are cutting square. I cut two piece on one side of the blade, flop one over to be the book match of the other, and push the cut faces together with their bases against a common straight edge. Any gap is obvious. Same thing for checking 45's. Make two cuts on the same side of the blade, flip one face down and push the cut faces back together. Plastic drafting triangles are all I've needed along with some simple verification cuts for the furniture and cabinets I make. I can see how a higher level of sophistication would be nice if your business is cutting really long or wide panels, however. But you still need to verify the setup by cutting test parts.

John


This is an easy peasey way of checking. Thanks for sharing John. I will use it.

[Max Neu]

I am also a 5 cut method believer,theres no need to waste material when doing it,just use a full sheet.I also don't use calipers.I use a 4x8 sheet,skim the edges,make my last cut on the long edge (8'),then break it in half and compare the 2 ends by feel,you can feel .002".Every once in a great while I will check to see if the slider is still square,and after about 13 years,it has never needed adjusted.

[Rod Sheridan]

Sounds like you're running a whole different level of machinery. This is not meant for industrial panel saws which you can set once and expect them to take the abuse. It is meant for lighter duty sliders, like Hammer, Felder 5 & 7 series, Minimax, Knapp, etc.

My Hammer K3 would go out of square if I looked at it funny. Its a nice saw but a bit lightweight. The Knapp I have now holds its settings pretty well if I'm careful. But the way it is designed, it will get out of square if you give it a good bump in the right place. I get the triangle out pretty often, like weekly, if I'm in the middle of a project. I know guys who start their day with the triangle and sanity check their settings.

Wow.

I set up my Hammer B3 5 years ago, checked it last year it hadn't moved.

Are you indicating that the fence on the outrigger is coming out of adjustment or the fence on the sliding table?

regards, Rod.

[Denis Kenzior]

The short cross cut fence was the worst offender. The eccentric stop is not far enough out, so even a minor tweak due to a bump would make it go out of square by quite a bit.

Taking the outrigger off and back on would result in small deviations in the outrigger cross cut fence as well. Not a lot, but enough that 0.001 per foot was not repeatable.

Again, my personal experience. My standards for machine setup are pretty high, so that might be part of the issue.

[Brian Lamb]

First post, I'll start with an introduction, my name is Brian Lamb and we make the Lamb Tool work items, the square you have been talking about in particular. I have been in woodworking for 35 years or so now, also a retired aerospace machine shop owner/operator/programmer. I have had Felder machinery since 2001 and Robland before that for maybe 5 years, I also moderate the Felder Owners Group on Yahoo, I see a few familiar names in this post.

Why I'm responding.... there seem to be some questions about accuracy. I have had the squares double checked on a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) and they check within approximately .001" of square between the 16" and 24" legs, we guarantee .002" as a general rule just in case we are a few tenths of a thousandth over the .001" value. When we first started making these, I also did what one poster above mentioned, butt them back to back and run an indicator along the straight edge formed by two of them together. This is a distance of just under 48" and I have a youtube video I posted (forgive me for the lack of focus and poor video skills) and you can see the results for yourselves, that is an Interapid indicator with .0005" graduations:

https://youtu.be/kLaKDMFVmRo

In regards to the 5 sided cut, while it works pretty well and can be amazingly accurate, it is also dependent upon the operators ability to get the board located 5 times exactly correct, otherwise your final result is ruined. I used to use it and found too many times I could run the whole process 3 times in a row without moving anything and get different answers each time. That is when the idea of a large square and an indicator base became a lot easier and quicker to calibrate the fences.

If anyone has any question, feel free to ask and we will be happy to answer, or you can see the items we make, and most have PDF files on how to adjust and use them also on the website.

[marty shultz]

Wow.

I set up my Hammer B3 5 years ago, checked it last year it hadn't moved.

Are you indicating that the fence on the outrigger is coming out of adjustment or the fence on the sliding table?

regards, Rod.

No, the outrigger stays in adjustment while I keep it on the machine. However, when I take it off and replace it I like to recheck the adjustment.

[marty shultz]

What are the uses for the triangle? This may be a much less costly alternative.

No matter how much you spend for a device, you still don't know if it is square. I ran a large tool and die shop and we purchased a number of Brown & Sharp and Starrett devices and some of them were not "square". We had "standards" that our quality department periodically had validated by an outside service that we then used to verify the worker's tools.

One day, one of our designers brought in two plastic drawing triangles he had purchased at a local art supply store. He had them compared to our standards and they were as accurate as the tools could measure. The triangle cost a couple of dollars each. They would certainly serve very well as the "standard" in any woodworking shop to validate and/or adjust other devices.

An excellent way to validate the accuracy of the plastic squares is to use two squares on a flat surface. Get a $10-12 plastic 30-60-90 drafting square. To prove it's exactly 90°, take two to a glass counter, put the shorter legs on the counter and face the longer legs away from each other and butt them together (like a teepee). If the legs exactly butt, you can assume you have two perfect 90° angles. Using one of the plastic squares, do the same thing using your other tools. Any that mismatch, means that the tool is not square. You can also take the plastic square with you whenever you go to purchase another tool. Keep your "standard" somewhere where it doesn't get banged up.

Finally, remember that the wood you are using will expand and contract a couple of thousands from one day to the other. Does't pay to get too uptight.

While we are at it, I also only purchase the cheapest of adjustable squares. I square them with a drafting triangle and an auger file until they are square across 10". And I own a Bridge City square that isn't that accurate. Stainless steel machinist's squares are only square until you drop them. I have had several over the years and each has found a away to drop to the floor.

The key is to NEVER use your best square on for day to day measuring. Use it only as a reference tool to verify your other day to day tools.

In a comparison test reported in Fine Woodworking Magazine a couple of years ago, the Stanley 46-123 square was awarded the best value. It's much less expensive than a Starrett and just as accurate.

Howard, I've had similar experiences as you've had. And it upset me when I contacted Starrett to calibrate my combination square and they wanted $100!

[marty shultz]

Marty,

I have Brian's triangle. It is explicitly designed to set up sliders. So if this is your primary use case, I'd say go buy the triangle and don't look back.

I also own a smaller version of the Woodpecker's square. It does come in handy in many situations as well. 16x26 might be a bit too large for those though.

Hey Dennis, glad to hear from someone who can give first hand comments on the triangle.

I didn't say it in the original post but I want a triangle for more than just checking for perpendicularity. I also like a long straight edge to check surfaces (both flatness and co-planar). The hypotenuse of Lamb's triangle is almost 29" (if my math is right). Every extra inch is helpful when checking surfaces on the combination machines like the jointer beds and the gaps between the surfaces.



I've tried plastic before and it doesn't work as well as I'd like for situation where I need some mass when checking flatness using feeler gages.