Looking to get my first laser engraving machine - Help needed!

[Don Nguyen]

Recently, I have picked up some interest at possibly picking up a laser engraving machine. I initially looked at some used brands like Epilog, Trotec, etc. However, it seems like Thunder engravers are a fairly popular option on this forum and may fit my needs.

After doing some research, it seems like what I may want/need is a 100w laser engraver. I am looking at possibly engraving metal/plastic that are used on firearms.

Just basing on what I have found, I would be trying to engrave aluminum primarily to roughly a depth of .003" and greater.

Hopefully you guys can guide me with some additional information or things to look for that I could do some further research on.

Thanks!

[Chris DeGerolamo]

If you plan on engraving a whole lot of NFA items, you'll likely look into a fiber/yag laser vs. a CO2.

If you are wanting to be on the cosmetic side, then stick with a CO2. 100w is overkill for cosmetic engravings.

You'd be well off to call one of the big 3 and get some costs. I would recommend against any chinese machines...you get what you pay for...if you're stuck on chinese, get a Rabbit.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

PS: you pooch a customer's firearm, and they'll not be too happy. Take a lot of time to practice on scrap materials and your own firearms first.

[Gary Hair]

After doing some research... or things to look for that I could do some further research on.

Start at the first thread here and read up - all of your questions have been answered.

[Don Nguyen]

PS: you pooch a customer's firearm, and they'll not be too happy. Take a lot of time to practice on scrap materials and your own firearms first.

Definitely. I am probably heavily leaning more towards a Chinese machine, since I am looking at trying to do some basic engravings first and if things pan out, then at that point I may look more into higher end machines.

Can laser machines achieve a good stippling affect on plastic pieces as well as the traditional way/method of doing it with a soldering gun?

[Bill George]

Definitely. I am probably heavily leaning more towards a Chinese machine, since I am looking at trying to do some basic engravings first and if things pan out, then at that point I may look more into higher end machines.

Can laser machines achieve a good stippling affect on plastic pieces as well as the traditional way/method of doing it with a soldering gun?

All these questions and more have been covered here so much a simple search will keep you busy reading for hours. A simple low cost CO2 laser will not engrave metal. You will need to spend maybe $8000 on up for one that will.

[Don Nguyen]

All these questions and more have been covered here so much a simple search will keep you busy reading for hours. A simple low cost CO2 laser will not engrave metal. You will need to spend maybe $8000 on up for one that will.

I did quite a bit of reading/research before deciding to create this thread. I just felt like it would be somewhat productive for my continued searching/researching, to kind of help answer some questions or guide me further from what I have already read.

Kind of like my stippling plastics question, when I search stipple or stippling, it only returns back 4 previous threads regarding it.

[Bert Kemp]

I would do a google search on what type of laser will cut or engrave the materials you want to do. CO2 will do some fiber will yag will galovo will , none will do everything.what do you want to cut or engrave? how thick are the materials you want to work with. how big of a bed size do I need.

[Kev Williams]

You can't "engrave" metal with a low power (>400w?) C02 laser. You can only "mark" metal. For actually removing material, which is legally necessary for engraving firearms per ATF rules, you'll need a fiber or yag laser (as was already explained), or good old fashioned cutter tools... And if your intent is to make anything above 'hobby' money, plan on buying 2 machines. Second machine can be another like the first, or totally different, like a laser plus a CNC tool engraver. This comes to mind because of a few recent phone calls- I've had 3 people ask me about laser engraving so far this month, one is a customer, the other two were cold calls, but all 3 of them have broken down fiber lasers and are in a quandary as to how they're going to get their work done! I'd love to help them, but only one- my customer- has work I can replicate with my IS7000. The other 2 guys I had no answers for...

I will say this much about the four C02 lasers I own: As much use to me as they are, and as much money as they make me, they have a multitude of limitations. This is usually found out the hard way 'after the sale' in the form of materials not behaving as you'd expect. I love my lasers, but I have twice as many CNC tool machines for a reason: I need them. While fiber lasers are the bomb, I'll probably get by until I retire with my trusty carbide cutters... ;)

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[Gary Hair]

The other 2 guys I had no answers for...

The correct answer would have been: "Laser Image in Eugene, OR, can do that work for you. He's an amazing guy and shipping would be 1-2 days at the most."

Problem solved!

[Glen Monaghan]

I would do a google search on what type of laser will cut or engrave the materials you want to do. CO2 will do some fiber will yag will galovo will
FWIW, CO2 is a type of laser, fiber is a type of laser, and yag is a type of laser, and you can compare/contrast these various sources, but a galvo is not a type of laser that can be compared/contrasted with CO2/fiber/yag. Galvo is a type of motion system which can be used with any of the various laser sources, and most often is compared/contrasted with the more common gantry motion system (which also can be used with any of the various laser sources).

[Don Nguyen]

You can't "engrave" metal with a low power (>400w?) C02 laser. You can only "mark" metal. For actually removing material, which is legally necessary for engraving firearms per ATF rules, you'll need a fiber or yag laser (as was already explained), or good old fashioned cutter tools... And if your intent is to make anything above 'hobby' money, plan on buying 2 machines. Second machine can be another like the first, or totally different, like a laser plus a CNC tool engraver. This comes to mind because of a few recent phone calls- I've had 3 people ask me about laser engraving so far this month, one is a customer, the other two were cold calls, but all 3 of them have broken down fiber lasers and are in a quandary as to how they're going to get their work done! I'd love to help them, but only one- my customer- has work I can replicate with my IS7000. The other 2 guys I had no answers for...

I will say this much about the four C02 lasers I own: As much use to me as they are, and as much money as they make me, they have a multitude of limitations. This is usually found out the hard way 'after the sale' in the form of materials not behaving as you'd expect. I love my lasers, but I have twice as many CNC tool machines for a reason: I need them. While fiber lasers are the bomb, I'll probably get by until I retire with my trusty carbide cutters... ;)

.

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That's what further research seems to have pointed me towards. Seems like for my application, if I want to actually get past simply marking the metal is to look into fiber or yag type laser. I would like to get a CNC machine, but probably in the future, cause of the amount of space that their size requires.

Would a yag or fiber laser be too strong to do stippling on plastic like in the picture below or is something like that not even really practical/possible to do with lasers?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/25/29/54/25295462ac791f0dd2b572ba1f2be0e2.jpg

[Keith Winter]

Hi Don,

It sounds like you are looking to duplicate something you saw. I think what most people are trying to say is YOU need to figure out how it's done and the type of machine that does it, then come back to ask machine questions. The machines you are alternating between co2/fiber/jag/cnc are all very different. So it's very hard to provide you a good answer.

[Scott Shepherd]

Different wavelengths of lasers have different uses. The wavelength is a CO2 laser is in the 10,600nm range. That will not penetrate any metal at low wattage (wattages associated with "engraving" type machine. You'd be hard pressed to even make them cut aluminum foil. It's just a wavelength that doesn't penetrate into metal. A Fiber laser is in the 1,064nm range, and it will penetrate metal and lower powers. The two types seem to operate at the opposite end of the spectrum. What a CO2 will do, a Fiber won't, and what a Fiber will do, a CO2 won't. For instance, a Fiber won't engrave wood (for the most part), or even paper. You could put a piece of maple in it and run it at 100% power for an hour and still not have a mark on it. The material just absorbs that wavelength.

You are asking about engraving firearms .003" deep, and for that, laser wise, it takes a fiber laser. The photo of the mag you are showing is done with a CO2 laser more than likely. The only machines that will do both are machines that have the Fiber and CO2 in the same machine and those start in the $50-60,000 range last time I checked.

If you wanted to be able to do both, you'd need a Chinese Fiber and a Chinese CO2.

[Dee Gallo]

Welcome to the Creek, Don. To me, it looks like the sample you show is already textured and the engraving simply darkened an image on it. There is no "stippling effect", it's a visual effect from the engraving.

Dealing with engraving on other people's firearms is jumping into the deep end. You really need to know your laser skills well before you commit to doing a job for someone else.

Learning when to use Cermark, when to use a Fibermark, how to engrave plastics, and what the difference is should be your focus first. If you know how to design well, you could create a stippled appearance with whatever you use, but that is a whole set of lessons on its own.

[Don Nguyen]

Hi Don,

It sounds like you are looking to duplicate something you saw. I think what most people are trying to say is YOU need to figure out how it's done and the type of machine that does it, then come back to ask machine questions. The machines you are alternating between co2/fiber/jag/cnc are all very different. So it's very hard to provide you a good answer.

I was not really alternating between different machines. There were some other people who mentioned the options of co2, cnc, etc. The picture that I posted is done with a soldering iron and doing eventually individually/manually. Trying to see if it would be possible to achieve a similar effect with a laser machine or if it is not even possible at all.


Different wavelengths of lasers have different uses. The wavelength is a CO2 laser is in the 10,600nm range. That will not penetrate any metal at low wattage (wattages associated with "engraving" type machine. You'd be hard pressed to even make them cut aluminum foil. It's just a wavelength that doesn't penetrate into metal. A Fiber laser is in the 1,064nm range, and it will penetrate metal and lower powers. The two types seem to operate at the opposite end of the spectrum. What a CO2 will do, a Fiber won't, and what a Fiber will do, a CO2 won't. For instance, a Fiber won't engrave wood (for the most part), or even paper. You could put a piece of maple in it and run it at 100% power for an hour and still not have a mark on it. The material just absorbs that wavelength.

You are asking about engraving firearms .003" deep, and for that, laser wise, it takes a fiber laser. The photo of the mag you are showing is done with a CO2 laser more than likely. The only machines that will do both are machines that have the Fiber and CO2 in the same machine and those start in the $50-60,000 range last time I checked.

If you wanted to be able to do both, you'd need a Chinese Fiber and a Chinese CO2.

Thanks for the info. Looks like that'll be the case that I'll need two different type of machines if I was to want to engrave metal in that manner and also do plastic parts. I suppose I would have to decide which route I want to go with first, which would mean I would probably try to pick the lower cost option to get a feel of things before spending/investing more money in a more expensive machine.

[Don Nguyen]

Welcome to the Creek, Don. To me, it looks like the sample you show is already textured and the engraving simply darkened an image on it. There is no "stippling effect", it's a visual effect from the engraving.

Dealing with engraving on other people's firearms is jumping into the deep end. You really need to know your laser skills well before you commit to doing a job for someone else.

Learning when to use Cermark, when to use a Fibermark, how to engrave plastics, and what the difference is should be your focus first. If you know how to design well, you could create a stippled appearance with whatever you use, but that is a whole set of lessons on its own.

I would be working on cheaper firearm parts, like unfinished firearm receivers which cost around $30 - $50, so my potential cost of risk would be lower.

I should have been more clear with the effect that was created in the picture I posted.

This picture below may show a better before/after. The after is on the left side and the before is on the right side:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/14/3d/ae/143daed0f21a35984140cd3c5e2f5dbd.jpg

I would most likely not be trying to stipple something on a contoured surface as the piece posted above, but more on flat surfaces/planes.

[David Somers]

Don,

It almost seems like you might be well served by speaking with a modest number of gunsmiths if you haven't already. They may be able to talk to you about the methods being used for this kind of work and the pro's and cons. Seems like a laser, even a Chinese laser, might be a lot of $$ to shell out for what looks to me like a process well suited to a Fordom tool and an engraving bit. Unless of course you have other worthwhile uses for the laser scoped out. Most of the friends I have who are gunsmith's or gunsmith wannabe's do this kind of grip work by hand. Even the fancy work done on wooden grips for handguns and rifles. Not trying to talk you out of this approach. But with the information you have given us it seems like this may be a costly approach to a process that is easily done with less costly tools.

Also, I see that the pattern on the grip goes completely around the grip. Keep in mind that a laser is designed to work on a single plane and has a very limited depth of field. Forgive me if I am getting too basic for you....but think of a laser as being a magnifying lens that is engraving or cutting where the light going through the lens is focused. If you move the lens up or down the point of focus moves and the ability of the light to do any work for you is reduced. It is that focal point that is the key spot. A laser doesn't dynamically move that lens up and down to follow the contours of an object. You have to focus the lens on the object, do your engraving or cutting, and if you need to work in another plane on the object you have to refocus or move the object. So in order to do something like that grip you will need to reposition it a number of times for the whole surface to be covered. It can be done certainly, but again, a hand held rotary tool might server you better? Talk to some gunsmith's if you haven't already. Also....are you looking at a production line for this? If so perhaps expensive equipment is justified. But most gunsmiths don't do production work. Talk to them if you haven't already.

Dave

[Bryan Spiegel]

FYI, co2 wont touch pmags or emags. Ive tried up to 125w.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

I would not attempt stippling with the laser. First and foremost, you'd be relegated to doing only "pads" of stippling as that there is no way to wrap the engraving around the grip/ receiver.

I have engraved PMAGS with less than desirable results.

Are you trying to engrave fire controls on 80% lowers??

You've got a lot of goals per se....keep in mind one thing: lasers are tools. say it again: lasers are tools. You must know the limits of what you can do with one. You'd be hard pressed to hammer in a railroad spike with a tack hammer, know what I'm saying? Additionally, and somewhat inversely, if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. I'd be happy to give you more direction, but you gotta consolidate what you want to do.