how to make this joint

[Scott Schwake]

I'm working on building a gate for church, what's the best way to make this joint? I never have that great of luck getting good 45s with my SCMS, I want this joint to be nice & tight. Gate dimension are 33x24, cross pieces will be 2.5" wide, all out of 3/4" oak.

330291

Thank you.

[David Eisenhauer]

Without going to hand tools to clean up the cuts, it can be done with a crisp cutting blade on a TS and careful setup of the miter gauge. I have an Incra miter gauge that can be dialed in to cut exact angles, but another key point is to prevent any movement (or "creep") of the piece being cut in the miter gauge during the cut. Looks like you would need to make two cuts per each mitered end, with careful setup to ensure that the two cuts meet at the exact centerpoint of the cut end.

[Tom Ewell]

I'm more interested in how to tie it all together for a viable joint, dowels, loose tenons, modified M&T, half lap mullion, saddle, plain lap no miters. etc.

[Jerry Miner]

In general (IME) a table saw and miter gauge or sled will give better results than a SCMS.

But perhaps more importantly, is this an exterior installation? Does it need to be done with miter joints? Miters in exterior applications are problematic as the humidity swings will change the miter angles (wood will shrink/expand in width, but not appreciably in length)

You don't say anything about the structure itself. I hope the 3/4 x 2 1/2 material is trim applied to a substantial structure, not the structure itself?

[paul cottingham]

Make the mullion a single piece. Join the rails to the mullion with joints that incorporate a 45 degree corner top and bottom. Much stronger.

i hope my explanation makes sense.

[John T Barker]

I wouldn't cut them with the scms. I would make the internal portion of the frame from six pieces. The first two are notched to make the crucifix and will be tenoned into the outer frame. The mitred pieces are grooved on one surface and then glued down on the crucifix. The double mitre is cut first. Leave the pieces long, angle the blade to 45° and crosscut them on edge at 90° using the mitre gauge. Flip the stock and do it again and the cut has to be perfect. It takes some care to fit all the pieces but not a lot.

[Michael Dye]

I've made several gates that have just the look you have described. Depending on thickness of the gate (mine have been done using 8/4 and 12/4 stock), bandsaw the top 1/4" from the inner frame, half-lap the main sections together, then do the final veneering, having to do the trim fitting on 1/4" stock instead of 3" stock. Much easier to achieve the tight fits.

[glenn bradley]

Will there be a support structure or just the miter joints? I have concerns on longevity of that joinery over time at that scale. Are those floating panels or opening?

[Patrick Walsh]

I would also do as Paul sugested.

Or i would rip off the face detail and use some kind of motise and tennon construction or half lap of sorts then glue the face details back on.

Pictures when you are done.

Some kind of Japanes style joint done with hand tools could be very nice.

[Bob Lang]

These are in process photos from a piece I made for PopWood a few years ago. I did it as a mitered lap joint; the vertical piece goes from top to bottom and there are two short cross rails. I suppose you could also double miter the ends of all four pieces and cut slots to reinforce it with splines. To make a "nice & tight" joint you need to be extremely fussy; the widths need to be exactly the same and the 45s dead on. I tried to make a router jig to cut the recessed parts (except for the inner corner) but couldn't get it quite close enough. I ended up cutting the corners with a back saw and used the router and jig to waste the recesses.

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There is a blog post of the process on the PopWood Editor's blog (search for "Why This Detail Was Abandoned") and a close up of the finished joint on my website, ReadWatchDo.

Bob Lang

[Peter Quinn]

Miters are inherently weak, gates need a lot of strength in just a few joints. My best advice, lose the miters...all the miters....that is a job for mortise and tenons, not miters, particularly in the outer frame. A half lap would also be a good joint at the center point...inherently strong!

[Martin Wasner]

I'd do a half lap joint, if you gotta have the miters do a shallow inlay. Pain in the rear, but Peter is right, miters are weak.

[Jim Becker]

I would do this as a half-lap for strength if at all possible.

[ed vitanovec]

I would do this as a half lap, you could criss cross purely decorative.

[Mel Fulks]

Scott, there is at least one response referring to the design as a crucifix and I've been wondering if that is the intent of the
design. Your question is straight forward, but we don't have context. I think we need to know if your project is a gate to blend in with some existing divider,or an allusion to the cross. As a cross it is too distorted to be an effective design and unless it has to match an existing barrior ,I too,would avoid the miters.

[Scott Schwake]

Thanks for the replies. It will be an interior gate, pastor said a plain plywood gate would be fine, I was just trying to dress it up and push my woodworking skills a bit. I was hoping it would be crucifix-like, but the proportions of the gate are not helping in that regard. I was planning on having the whole thing mounted on 1/2" oak plywood, so the gate would be 1-1/4" +/- in depth. I've been reading about miter sleds here on the Creek and elsewhere, thinking that might be the way to go. Seems like getting perfect 45s centered perfectly on the 4 pieces will be the challenging part, most sled plans talk about getting a perfect 90 between two cuts, and less about having a perfect 45 on each cut.

[Mel Fulks]

That is the information we need. Since the gate structure would be plywood ,you don't have to worry about sagging .
Consider improving the proportions of the cross and using easier and more appropriate butt joints. Good luck!

[Eric Schatz]

If it doesn't have to be too fancy then just do a plywood slab with mitered trim on top of it. You don't need floating panels or anything like that. Just put it on like you would trim and forget about it. Cut the 90's in the center pieces and then trim the length to fit the outside frame. You could rabbet the outside frame so it hides the plywood edge. Seems simple to me.


Thanks for the replies. It will be an interior gate, pastor said a plain plywood gate would be fine, I was just trying to dress it up and push my woodworking skills a bit. I was hoping it would be crucifix-like, but the proportions of the gate are not helping in that regard. I was planning on having the whole thing mounted on 1/2" oak plywood, so the gate would be 1-1/4" +/- in depth. I've been reading about miter sleds here on the Creek and elsewhere, thinking that might be the way to go. Seems like getting perfect 45s centered perfectly on the 4 pieces will be the challenging part, most sled plans talk about getting a perfect 90 between two cuts, and less about having a perfect 45 on each cut.

[Jim Becker]

I was planning on having the whole thing mounted on 1/2" oak plywood, so the gate would be 1-1/4" +/- in depth.

Ok, then...you'll want to be really careful putting solid stock on top of plywood. I actually do this a lot for my tack trunk projects, but the solid stock overlay is only 1/4" thick, uses minimal glue with 23 gage pins to anchor it. Using an overlay technique like that gives a nice look when you don't need the solid stock for structure, albeit with a thinner reveal.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Roy Underhill has an episode on miters ("mind over mitre") that is available online now. He briefly shows a method of doing that joint, which looks pretty strong. He is using it to join window mullions, but I think it would work for what you want as well.

http://www.pbs.org/video/1771726651/