face frame question

[Bob Cooper]

i'm building an entire row of upper cabinets in the shop. Normally i'd build the box. Then i'd build (using pocket hole screws) and finish the face frame. Then i'd attach the finished face frame to the box and hang the finished product. when i do this i usually have the ff hang over 1/4" so when i hang neighboring cabinets the sides are separated by roughly 1/2"

This time i just built each box -- they are 23.75x36 -- and hung them up without a face frame. I butted them side by side. So this time there's no space between adjacent cabinets.

My plan is to build and finish some face frames -- likely each one would span 2 cabinets so they be roughly 48x36 -- and then attach the ff to the cabinet. But i got to thinking...do folks normally build the ff like this or do folks ever just build the ff in place -- attach the pieces one by one directly onto the cabinet instead of constructing a face frame? I wouldn't mind trying this but i would think it would be tough to get really tight joints like i do when i'm using pocket hold screws.

here's a picture...envision the entire wall w/these cabinets... as you can see, part of my motivation was to start using them asap. Trying to finally get stuff off the floor and into drawers and cabinets.
330201

[Dick Mahany]

I've traditionally used face frames on every cabinet and spaced them accordingly after final assembly, and liked the finished look. I recently moved into a new space and need to make new cabinets, so I'm bending all of my past rules and going with the 32mm Euro system with frameless cabinets all hung on a french cleat for flexibility and a modern look. The cabinets will use soft close Euro cup hinges, so no face frames.

Since I have traditionally used face frames, this is taking me way out of my comfort zone, but I like the idea of the full cabinet access that one can't quite achieve with face frames. Your current installation looks like it would be a possibility for such a combination if you wanted to skip the frames and make full access doors.

BTW.....shop looks great !

[Tom Ewell]

Don't know how normal it is, but I don't see why you can't pre-make a FF any size you wish. Matter of material, space and handling I suppose.
I'd probably finish out the case run and make a single FF for the whole thing, unless there are expectations reconfigure the cabinets later.
Dick's Euro option is not bad either.

Do it however you want, that's the fun of this stuff and the learning part never stops.

[Mark W Pugh]

Don't know how normal it is, but I don't see why you can't pre-make a FF any size you wish. Matter of material, space and handling I suppose.
I'd probably finish out the case run and make a single FF for the whole thing, unless there are expectations reconfigure the cabinets later........


I agree with Tom. I recently completed a project in which I built a 10' X 6' FF. The cabinet was totally completed, then the FF was mounted to the cabinet. I used pocket screws for the FF. I like the one FF look vs multiple joined FF's, but that's just me.

http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/Pugsbrew/IMG_1684_zpsr4al4bti.jpg

http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/Pugsbrew/IMG_1685_zps6zhv9aoo.jpg

This is the first time I've done this. Huge learning curve.

Euro cabinets are great also, as previously stated.

I couldn't figure out how to post a picture, but the links should work.

[Sam Murdoch]

For face frame cabinets that I am installing I typically gang up the cabinets into as big a unit as I can maneuver through the doors of the destination. I could be adding a bench made face frame that will cover 4 to 6 cabinets. Height and width not a consideration. The cabinets are ganged up before they leave the shop floor. The FF is fully assembled on the bench using pocket screws and glue and attached to the cabinetry using biscuits. In your case - with the cabinets already on the wall I would assemble the face frame and pin it onto the cabinet or use finish GRK screws.

You could build the FF in pieces and attach each piece but this is more work in the end with none of the precision that is derived from careful measuring and assembling the FF unit on the bench.

As for full access to the cabinet interior - I nearly ALWAYS flush my face frames to the inside wall of the cabinets. Using 3/4" ply I end up with an 1-1/2" face frame - typically - or bigger. If the design warrants a wider FF I simply add spacers between the cabinets.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with full overlay doors mounted on Euro hinges either and that is another option for the OP especially as the cabinetry is already mounted to the wall.

[Robert Engel]

In the old days cabs were builtin place.
I've seen ff's nailed on with finishing nails and butt joints.

So, yes you can do it but you will get a better product doing a pre-assembly like someone mentioned.

[Jim Becker]

I have several instances of built-in upper cabinets in my home where I hung the boxes first and then applied the face frames.

[John Goodin]

I always thought the individual face frames was because people followed the method of Kraftmaid and the other big manufacturers who build independent units without regard to how they are arranged onsite. Seems like one large face frame or one frame for every couple of cabinets would look better since it would reduce the number of seams where they join.

[Mike Schuch]

The problem with large face frames is when you need to reconfigure something and move a cabinet. I agree that a single face frame looks nice but some day someone will need to make a change and they WILL be cussing you... the original builder. Guess how I know?

[Sam Murdoch]

The problem with large face frames is when you need to reconfigure something and move a cabinet. I agree that a single face frame looks nice but some day someone will need to make a change and they WILL be cussing you... the original builder. Guess how I know?

Though :) now that we have the "Multi- tool" Fein or otherwise (mine is a Harbor Freight version and I work it hard) cutting something like a FF precisely to take it apart is not such a challenge - "guess how I know".

Having said that - I don't build anything with the idea of some other person in the future needing to take it apart - unless it is a knock down piece.which is intended and engineered to be disassembled.

[Rick Lizek]

Any reason you don't want go frameless. I realize that frames are traditional and people like the look but hinge options were limited until the invention of the Euro hinge. Face frames waste space. For example with a bookcase you have to remove several extra books to get the first and last book from the shelf. Frameless cabinets are just as strong as framed cabinets if you make a few adjustments.

[Bob Cooper]

Thanks all that's what I wanted to hear. Now, on the frameless idea ... I'm not planning on adding any doors. So I'm counting on the ff to cover that ugly plywood edge. I may change my mind one day if saw dust becomes an issue but right now I'm liking the idea of seeing everything

[Mark W Pugh]

Thanks all that's what I wanted to hear. Now, on the frameless idea ... I'm not planning on adding any doors. So I'm counting on the ff to cover that ugly plywood edge. I may change my mind one day if saw dust becomes an issue but right now I'm liking the idea of seeing everything

Oh, saw dust will become a problem. IMHO, just saying.

[Tom Ewell]

Oh, saw dust will become a problem. IMHO, just saying.
Yeah it will, even with fairly good dust collection.