Full width shavings (or not)

[Paul Fisicaro]

I have a Fulton / Sargent 409C that I brought back to life. I sharpened the blade to arm hair cutting status. Its very sharp although I dont think the bevel is right because I cant seem to get it polished throught out. Ive tried for a while.
THe edge is pretty straight (no camber), the frog is tight to the base but I cant seem to get a full width shaving. It seems to be cutting right in the middle of the blade. I'm fairly new to the plane thing so I was wondering if someone
could tell me where Im going wrong.


Thanks!

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[Brian Holcombe]

Paul, if the blade is truly flat then the board is not flat, but convex.

[Mike Brady]

I see what appears to be a gap under the front of the chip breaker. You can fix that by lapping the mating surface of that breaker on a stone (rest the back end of the breaker on the same stone so that you achieve a very slight undercut on the front mating edge. This will keep the shavings from getting caught in the the assembly. Move the breaker closer to the edge of the iron. Try to get the entire bevel lapped evenly. I recommend a sharpening jig to assure this. From this, you can hone just the barest front portion to a mirror finish. Your shaving is in the middle of the iron, so your lateral adjusting seems to be on the money. You don't necessarily need a full shaving but yours is only about 50%. Good luck and listen to what the others say.

[Derek Cohen]

There are three possible reasons (that I can think of) why the blade js cutting as it is:

1. The blade has camber.

2. The board is not flat but had a high point, as Brian also suggested.

3. The sole of the plane is not flat and is higher at the centre than the sides.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Eisenhauer]

Your last photo looks like it is showing your iron to have a high spot in the center (that is getting reduced during sharpening), low on the outer edges, resulting in the center of the blade cutting only. Brian and Mike also have good advice as usual. I would grind/hone away until I had an even hone line across the iron.

[Jim Koepke]

Paul,

Have you checked the blade for square?

Putting a square on the side of the blade and checking the blade will tell if there might be a camber or not. A square can also indicate if the sole of the plane is out of flat.

With a shaving as thin as you have, a camber of a few thousandths of an inch would make a difference.

Have you tried advancing the blade to obtain a full width shaving?

What happens when you run the plane along the edge of the board with just half of the plane on the board. Try this one both sides of the plane.

I usually set my lateral adjusters this way on the edge of a board.

Here is a bit more about getting started with hand planes:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148076-Getting-Started-With-Hand-Planes

Here is another post to show you how a very small amount of camber can affect the width of a shaving:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373-My-Camber-Blade-Round-Tuit-Finally-Came

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

THank guys. I will check all these things in the morning and give a full report. Thank you so much!

[Lenore Epstein]

I don't know whether this is relevant to anything, but in the course of sharpening, did you flatten the back of the iron? Put a straight edge across the width of the iron on either the front or back?

[Paul Fisicaro]

I flattened the back.. I did check for a camber with a straight edge and it was minimal. but from what was said above it can make a huge difference.

[Jim Koepke]

I flattened the back.. I did check for a camber with a straight edge and it was minimal. but from what was said above it can make a huge difference.

Correct, if you have 0.0015" of camber and you are taking a 0.001" shaving, it will not be full width.

I do not know how small of an item your eyes can resolve, but if I can see light at the edges of a blade when using a square, it is at least 0.002".

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

if it is cambered, do I apply pressure in the middle of the blade to remove it?

[Lenore Epstein]

I'm a newbie, so my only experience with cambered irons is having gotten a little too enthusiastic and putting way too much curve into a smoothing plane blade (DOH!). My thought is that if you just press on the middle you might have trouble keeping the edge from rolling left and right. I don't have a grinder (my shop=my living room), but there isn't really that much material to take off, so I'll use my King Deluxe 300 and my 1st generation Veritas guide with its wide flat roller to 'grind' the bevel back until the edge is straight. If you have one a grinder is probably the fastest way to reshape the edge and quickly restore the bevel.

My approach would be to keep even pressure (not a ton of pressure, either) on both corners so the middle of the curve comes off and the blade ends up as square as possible.

Hope that's a bit helpful!

[Jim Koepke]

if it is cambered, do I apply pressure in the middle of the blade to remove it?

If you have mentioned your sharpening set up I have missed it or forgotten?

Do you use a guide?

What kind of stones?

Do you have a way to measure your shavings?

If you can adjust your plane to take a full width shaving you could measure the outside versus the inside to see how much camber you have.

Water stones with a little dish to them may produce a cambered blade no matter how hard you try for straight.

Then there are those who insist that some camber is desirable to help avoid plane tracks. They do have a good point.

jtk

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Do you use a eclipse jig ? if so, have you tuned it ? If not, the jig can actually warp the blade during shapening because of low tolerances in the pins.

[don wilwol]

Keep in mind, we see a lot of full width shavings shown, but in practice, they are not necessarily and often impractical.

[Paul Fisicaro]

I sharpen everything free hand. I sharpen all my chisels free hand as well and usually don't have a problem with getting a flat back and arm hair removal. I use 1000 / 8000 water stones. I flatten them on glass and sand paper before every sharpening. I put a straight edge on the stone before sharpening to check if its flat. Also, dont have a way of measuring the shavings

[Paul Fisicaro]

I have not yet achieved a full width shaving ever so I think it would be great for my well being if I can at least get the result. At least then Ill know that I can tune a plane properly.

[bill howes]

Paul,
If you are still having problems after exploring the suggestions already offered , another possibility is that the blade is being deformed into being concave by - uneven pressure from the lever cap, lack of flatness of the back of the leading edge of the chipbreaker or the lever cap. One way to check this would be to try the blade in another plane if that's possible. Alternatively ,with the blade set quite proud or extended view this sharp edge for any curvature

Good luck

[Paul Fisicaro]

Ok Bill Thanks, Heading down to the shop to try all these suggestions. Will report back..

[Warren Mickley]

Paul, from the pattern on your bevel, it appears that the previous owner sharpened with more curvature and a lower angle than you. That is why the present pattern is polished so much more in the middle of the bevel. It sounds like you are gradually reducing the curve as you sharpen, but it is difficult to hold it steady when there is so much curve already.

You can get a better idea of the actual geometry by trying two things. One is increase the depth of cut. If you iron has a nice curve on it, this should gradually widen the shaving. The other is to use the lateral adjustment lever, which should move the shaving from side to side. The results will indicate what kind of curve is on your iron.

A traditional method for reducing the curve of the iron is to sharpen with the iron hanging over the edge of the stone on alternate sides. You still want the bevel flat on the stone but the overhang allows you to concentrate on the center portion of the bevel and gradually reduce the curve. This method also allows you to manage the wear on the stone so the stone does not get dished. Traditional stones were two inches wide or a little less. Today's wide stones were designed for the honing jig crowd.

[Pat Barry]

The blade not being straight across the sharpened edge is the leading theory. In fact I think its almost inevitable given a totally freehand sharpening method as any variability in pressure, wrist position, arm angle, etc, etc will cause the blade edge to become cambered. If you get a dead straight edge with the manual process then you have achieved sharpening nirvana.

Re: arm hair shaving indicates a sharp edge I suppose but all arm hair is not equal. Ie red, black, blonde, etc all cut differently. I seriously don't see arm hair shaving as a measure of success.

[Paul Fisicaro]

So... I re-sharpened manually after flattening the stones again. Hair test, good. it was really sharp to my knowledge. (i dont know any other way to test sharpness) Im a fishing guide and sharpen knives all day everyday and if a knife isnt sharp, you know it. You could hurt yourself really bad if its not . Everyone knows a dull tool is a dangerous tool. And By all means, Im not expert on sharpening hand tools quite the oppsoite but I tried honing guides and I just dont like them. Id rather learn to do it free hand.

I ran a straight edge across no light, maybe a FRACTION.There was a slight camber when i checked before starting over but looked heavy on the right side of the blade.

Boom:

Pine and Polar.

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[Warren Mickley]

The blade not being straight across the sharpened edge is the leading theory. In fact I think its almost inevitable given a totally freehand sharpening method as any variability in pressure, wrist position, arm angle, etc, etc will cause the blade edge to become cambered. If you get a dead straight edge with the manual process then you have achieved sharpening nirvana.
.

It is certainly possible to get a straight or even concave edge using a flat stone and hand sharpening. The idea is to have control of the shape of the edge so you get just what you want. A few years ago a friend brought me a plane that wasn't cutting well; the problem was a concave edge, with an easy remedy.

[Paul Fisicaro]

Warren, there is definitely a curve to the bevel. I cannot get that flat no matter what I do. Perhaps I would need a honing guide for that aspect. I could run it over course sand paper I guess but Im afraid Ill mess up the bevel

Ill definitely try putting the blade on the edge in the future. that sounds like a helluva an idea. Thank you for the tip!

My stone is the exact width of my 2 inch iron like you said. I just make sure I start at the bottom and make it all the way to the top. I do get a slight dish if I dont flatten after every use but a quick hit on some 220 sand paper and it flattens right out.

[Jim Koepke]

I could run it over course sand paper I guess but Im afraid Ill mess up the bevel

Running a blade over course sand paper can be useful to reestablish a bevel on a blade.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Check the video below out. You will be able to free hand sharpen and I promise you that you will be able to get full width shavings. I have the video. It came witha set of Norton Water stones.
You sharpen with cross body movement. It enables you to lock your arms and hold the iron or chisel steady for sharpening.


https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/NO-SVIDEO-WAT

[Kees Heiden]

Looks like a succes Paul. Only the very thin shavings still is narrow, whcih indicates a slightly camber. Doesn't look like much of a problem, you'll deal with it on later sharpening sessions. Do you have a nick in the edge? It looks like your shavings are torn in two pieces on the left hand side.

[Paul Fisicaro]

Kees, I cant see a nick but it doesn't mean there isn't one there. If that's what happens when there's a nick, then there's probably a nick .. LOL!

[Jim Koepke]

I cant see a nick but it doesn't mean there isn't one there.

That is part of reading the shaving. If the shaving is on the order of 0.001", the nick could be the same size to cause a split (place where the blade isn't cutting) to appear.

Voids in a shaving indicate parts of the surface that are below where the blade is cutting.

Crinkled shavings indicate either a chip breaker too close to the edge or particles of the shaving getting caught underneath.

Shavings can tell a lot about what is taking place where the blade meets the wood.

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

The chip breaker is about 1/16 from the blade. Everything I've read says to keep it as close as possible for thin shavings but im not really sure. Im a noob. It was getting clogged up a bit. When planing, it seems I have to push hard as well. I see all these videos when people just push the plane across a board with no effort. I dunno, maybe my blades aren't as sharp as I think or maybe something still isn't right. And that wood was pine and poplar too. SHouldnt it be easy to plane?

Also, that board I was planing had a big dip in it just from planing the same spot over and over testing a few planes. Im not sure if that has anything to do with it.

[Kees Heiden]

Planing is quite hard work, no way around that. Put a dab of wax on the sole of your plane, makes pushing it a lot easier. When you get clogging at the tip of the chipbreaker you should pay attention to how it mates to the blade. Hold it up to a light and have a peek under the chipbreaker towards that edge, you shouldn't see light shining through.

[Jim Koepke]

Having the chip breaker set close does help with difficult woods. A sharp blade is more important in all woods.

As Kees mentioned, put a bit of wax on the sole and you will be surprised how much easier it is.


It was getting clogged up a bit. When planing, it seems I have to push hard as well.

Also as Kees mentioned check how well the chip breaker is seating on the blade. If you see splinters stuck between the chip breaker and the blade there is work to be done.

Here is what now seems like a woefully incomplete write up on chip breakers from a much longer thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer&p=1158886#post1158886

It is amazing how much more one can learn/encounter in just a few years. Yesterday a plane was hard to push. So the blade was removed to sharpen. When reassembling the blade and chip breaker it is a habit to check the mating. This one was a little off. There was a little bump in the middle of the chip breaker. Instead of trying to work the full area, a small stone was used to remove metal just at the high spot.

At times I have had chip breakers that seemed to touch on only one side of the blade back. These get mounted in my vise and my largest Crescent wrench will be used very carefully to give them a bit of torsional adjustment.

It is also important the front of the chip breaker where it meets the blade is a smooth fit. There should be no place for a small splinter to get lodged to cause trouble. I tend to hone this part of the chip breaker and will then give it a few swipes on a strop. I will even rub a little furniture wax to help the shavings along.

With your plane set up, hold it up and see if there is any light between the blade and the frog. This could be an indication the frog is too far back.

It sure seems like a lot to do, but once you get used to it, it only takes a moment to check and correct when needed.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

The big dip will have an effect on the shaving, but I would wax the sole of the plane to see if that relieved some of the effort required to push it. Waxing the sole, going with the grain and a sharp blade all work together to make for easier/better planning.

[Jim Koepke]

Also, that board I was planing had a big dip in it just from planing the same spot over and over testing a few planes.

Forgot to reply to this.

The solution is to plane on either side of the dip to bring the board back to flat. Then plane starting on one side working toward the other to keep it flat.

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

Jim, to the eye, it did seem the chip breaker was flush to the blade, well at first it wasnt. Someone mentioned they saw a gap so I filed it, sanded it and made sure it was flush. I didn't see any light at the time but Ill check again. Other than that or the frog being to far back, could anything else be at fault besides the user, me?

Thanks.

Its unbelievable how much help I have gotten on this forum. Its very, very awesome. Thank you everyone. You guys are legends.

If you have any questions about fly fishing in saltwater, Ill be glad to answer all and every question since that is my expertise! LOL.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, to the eye, it did seem the chip breaker was flush to the blade, well at first it wasnt. Someone mentioned they saw a gap so I filed it, sanded it and made sure it was flush. I didn't see any light at the time but Ill check again. Other than that or the frog being to far back, could anything else be at fault besides the user, me?

Thanks.

Its unbelievable how much help I have gotten on this forum. Its very, very awesome. Thank you everyone. You guys are legends.

If you have any questions about fly fishing in saltwater, Ill be glad to answer all and every question since that is my expertise! LOL.

It is possible something else is causing a problem. Trouble shooting from afar can be a challenge.

An overly tight mouth can cause shavings to jam and the plane will be hard to push.

Starting with the chip breaker back at 1/32" or 1/16" is fine for starting out. The first order of business is getting the plane to work. Once you become a planing ninja, then you can play with seeing how close you can get to the edge or how tight you can set the mouth.

If you have an old candle, other wax, paste wax or even some furniture polish with wax apply some of that to the sole of the plane. Apply starting at the heel and work toward the toe. This is safer than going the other way. You will be surprised how much difference it can make.

Try retracting the blade until it stops cutting. Then advance it until it just starts cutting. Make a few passes on the high sides of you practice board. If there are still problems, take some pictures, remove the blade and look for wood shavings caught between the blade and the chip breaker. Take some pictures of that. You shouldn't have to push down on the plane for it to cut. If you do have to push down on the plane it may be concave from front to back.

I just went out and took some shots of the chip breaker I tuned up yesterday:

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The top view looks like there is a gap, but that is just some oxidation on the cap iron. Heck, we should look so good when we are that old. It has an 1867 patent date stamped on it.

If there is any gap, there will be a lot of splinters inside the opening. There may be a few from the dust coming in from the sides. If there is a lot, then there may be a gap.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

The chip breaker is about 1/16 from the blade. Everything I've read says to keep it as close as possible for thin shavings but im not really sure. Im a noob. It was getting clogged up a bit.

That bit of info suggests you need to back off the frog to gain some extra clearance with the mouth opening.

[steven c newman]

One other "trick" to try. When i first set up a plane after a rehab, I use a thin ruler. It runs the length of the frog's face, and out the mouth opening. On 99% of these planes, there is a "ramp" where the frog will rest on. I go for coplanar between the frog's face and the surface of that ramp. This serves as a "base line" to start to set things up to make a shaving.

With the frog off, look at the base casting. Right on the mouth opening, on the frog's side, there should be that ramp. I can even just use a fingertip when setting the frog in place. Frog too far back....the ramp will make the cutter bend towards the front of the plane. Too far forward, and there is nothing behind the frog where it comes out of the mouth. Sometimes that will result in chatter. Most times, it means shavings don't have enough room to curl up out of there.

try the coplanar trick once, and see how the plane does..

[Paul Fisicaro]

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This is my Trustworthy #3. You see the ramp? or the casting.. It looks proud on the left side by a lot. She wont cut for crap. She skips and bumps around like 3 legged camel walking across a frozen lake. Its hard to get a file in there to fix it.. The frog doesn't mate up well with the base either. The bottom of the frog looks way too round. I filed it down some and almost have it flat. These are the things I've started to learn to look for.

Steve, Im a little confused on what you mean by coplanar? I usually make sure there is no lip when the frog sits on the base. Other than that, Ive never moved a frog forward or backwards.

[Stewie Simpson]

Paul. You may find this of interest.

Stewie;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZn9oVP2wps

[Paul Fisicaro]

Paul. You may find this of interest.

Stewie;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZn9oVP2wps

THis makes a lot of sense. I was using my plane on soft pine and it was clogging because I think my mouth gap is too small but I wasnt getting as much clogging in the poplar. Thanks for the information!

[steven c newman]

Per Pictures 2 and 4: Yes that is the ramp. Yes the frog is too far back. "Coplanar" would be when the face of the frog is in line with the angled part of the ramp Without that little step showing.

[Paul Fisicaro]

The problem is that this frog is aligned with the ramp but it's not sitting flush

[Jim Koepke]

The problem is that this frog is aligned with the ramp but it's not sitting flush

It is difficult for me to imagine this.

With the frog installed, can a flat rule be set on the frog and then pushed down the frog and through the mouth without catching?

jtk

[steven c newman]

Went down to the shop, and looked at two frogs. The first one didn't count, as it is a York Pitch Dunlap from West Germany..
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The frog is set in line with the ramp.
The second frog was on a Stanley Made in England #4
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Except these did not have a "ramp" cast into them. I set it up in-line with the rear edge of the opening
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How the iron and chipbreaker are set up..
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fully assembled. Test run was on some nasty Yellow Pine, still a bit wet, even..
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Mainly to get the entire surface flat. Had a few waves in it.

[Patrick Chase]

It is difficult for me to imagine this.

With the frog installed, can a flat rule be set on the frog and then pushed down the frog and through the mouth without catching?

jtk

When you do what Jim suggests, make sure that you check both sides. If the frog is twisted then the blade may clear down the center but not on one side or the other.

Also, the test Jim suggests isn't strictly necessary for clearance. With the blade at realistic extension the sole corner will be at the same height as the bevel (as opposed to the blade front), so it's possible to fail the "ruler test" but still have adequate clearance for the blade.

What I would do in your shoes is to advance the frog until you can just barely slide a piece of thin shim stock all the way across the blade's bevel (alternatively you could check for interference with something like Prussian Blue - either way works). That will let you rule out sole interference as an issue, and hopefully let you get to the next layer of the fettling onion.

[Paul Fisicaro]

It is difficult for me to imagine this.

With the frog installed, can a flat rule be set on the frog and then pushed down the frog and through the mouth without catching?

jtk


You can clearly seee it in this photo.. If I do the ruler trick like you suggested it doesnt catch.
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[Paul Fisicaro]

Per Pictures 2 and 4: Yes that is the ramp. Yes the frog is too far back. "Coplanar" would be when the face of the frog is in line with the angled part of the ramp Without that little step showing.

Steve, its actually aligned with the ramp but it sits up above it. It just doesnt seem like it fits properly or seats in there properly.

[Patrick Chase]

Steve, its actually aligned with the ramp but it sits up above it. It just doesnt seem like it fits properly or seats in there properly.

As any machinist or mechanical engineer will tell you, there is a simple and 100% reliable diagnostic tool that will show you exactly where you are and aren't seating: Prussian Blue marking grease (http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80038-Prussian-Blue-Tube/dp/B000HBM86Q/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453865580&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=prussian+blue+marking+grease).

Get some, apply it *thinly* to either the blade or the mating on frog+sole. Seat the blade with as little clamping pressure as possible. Remove it, and look to see where the grease has been transferred. Those are your contact points. If you find high points then file them down a little bit and do it again. Repeat until fixed. There are less messy options as well, but marking grease is the gold standard for this sort of thing.

As a bonus, if you want to prank somebody who still uses a landline phone then you can smear the stuff all over their receiver and leave them a voicemail. That was once a common form of hazing in some engineering subcultures...

[Paul Fisicaro]

As any machinist or mechanical engineer will tell you, there is a simple and 100% reliable diagnostic tool that will show you exactly where you are and aren't seating: Prussian Blue marking grease (http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80038-Prussian-Blue-Tube/dp/B000HBM86Q/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453865580&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=prussian+blue+marking+grease).

Get some, apply it *thinly* to either the blade or the mating on frog+sole. Seat the blade with as little clamping pressure as possible. Remove it, and look to see where the grease has been transferred. Those are your contact points. If you find high points then file them down a little bit and do it again. Repeat until fixed. There are less messy options as well, but marking grease is the gold standard for this sort of thing.

As a bonus, if you want to prank somebody who still uses a landline phone then you can smear the stuff all over their receiver and leave them a voicemail. That was once a common form of hazing in some engineering subcultures...

Ill give that a go tomorrow. I think they sell that at Napa. Ill definitely smear some on home phone and call my wife. She would LOVE that....

[Jim Koepke]

Steve, its actually aligned with the ramp but it sits up above it. It just doesnt seem like it fits properly or seats in there properly.

There may lie the problem. You may have the wrong frog for the plane's base.

This image of the plane's base shows a machined surface for the front of the frog seating:

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This is similar to what Stanley did as an improvement in 1902 with what is commonly referred to as a type 9. This manufacture didn't add a rib.

This image shows the front of frog sitting above the machined surface. We do not see the large gap due to the angle at which the picture is taken:

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This gap and the frog to base mismatch may be levering the frog. This makes trouble for the plane working properly.

If this is the case, this may be a candidate for conversion to a scrub plane if you have use for one.

I have boxes full of parts that may be useful someday, just not today.

Another option is if you know a machinist or are willing to do a lot of work yourself with files, there may be enough metal to allow you to work the frog seat down to where the front of the frog can mate with the machined surface.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Jim brings up a terrific point - you should check the bedding of the frog itself on the sole before you do any more analysis of the frog<->blade interface.

You can use the same approaches there as for blade bedding - you want to confirm good contact across the bearing surfaces as opposed to getting hung up on a single feature like a rib.

[Jim Koepke]

you want to confirm good contact across the bearing surfaces as opposed to getting hung up on a single feature like a rib.

My point was the base looks to be designed for a two level bearing surface similar to what Stanley used after 1902. It appears the frog was made for a single bearing surface as was used on Stanley planes before 1902.

Of course this is not a Stanley plane. The mention of the rib on the Stanley plane was only to point out a difference. I do not think a manufacturer would machine a surface if it didn't serve a purpose.

This may be just another example of the things that can go wrong when someone without knowledge of planes makes a Frankenplane.

For those who do not know, a Frankenplane is a plane made up of parts from different planes. In many cases it can make a good plane if one is careful about where the parts originated. In many cases parts from different designs or even different manufactures were assembled to have something to sell on eBay, yard sale or where ever.

I am pretty good at spotting things on Stanley/Bailey planes and Bedrocks that will make me pass. I can still make mistakes. My approach these days is to mostly look for inexpensive parts planes. Little disappointment big joy when it turns out to be a fine plane.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Ill give that a go tomorrow. I think they sell that at Napa. Ill definitely smear some on home phone and call my wife. She would LOVE that....

I would only do that if I wanted my wife to use me to test the sharpness of our kitchen knives.

Many years ago I did pull a trick on someone at work. I unscrewed the ear piece cover on a standard, at the time, desk phone and placed a piece of tape over the holes. Then the ear piece cover was reinstalled. When the phone rang and someone answered they heard nothing.

When I was being "evaluated" by a new manager, he read that on one of the many pieces of paper in my file, "placed tape on telephone receiver." He said that sounded so petty and ridiculous he was going to get rid of it and dropped it in the trash. The union rep looked at me and kind of shook his head and held back his laughter.

The fun part of the story... I was working for the phone company at the time. The managers who didn't come up through the ranks knew very little about how things actually worked there.

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

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Picture one: Notice the 408.. Sargent frog, I think but that really doesnt mean anything unless sargent didnt make planes for trustworthy... The points seem to match up..

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Picture 2 and 3: Do you notice that the frog seems to be sitting a bit too far to the left? No matter what I do, there seems to be less space on the left than on the right..

I really, really like this little plane and Im trying to collect all the sizes too. I just wish it worked well.

EDIT: it also seems like the screws that are in the frog are very far back. I almost cant turn them. I did move the frog slightly forward though but it was like that before I moved the frog.

[Jim Koepke]

Picture 2 and 3: Do you notice that the frog seems to be sitting a bit too far to the left? No matter what I do, there seems to be less space on the left than on the right..

I really, really like this little plane and Im trying to collect all the sizes too. I just wish it worked well.

EDIT: it also seems like the screws that are in the frog are very far back. I almost cant turn them. I did move the frog slightly forward though but it was like that before I moved the frog.

I wouldn't worry as much about the frog sitting to one side as much as if the frog and the base were meant to go together.

When the frog is sitting on the base without the screws, does it mate to the solidly?

jtk

[Jerry Olexa]

Another great thread..Much knowledge and experience here...Thanks

[Paul Fisicaro]

When the frog is sitting on the base without the screws, does it mate to the solidly?

jtk

I dont think it does.. It slides around a lo but mostly it just seems like it sitting up way too high..

[Jim Koepke]

When the frog is sitting on the base without the screws, does it mate to the solidly?


I dont think it does.. It slides around a lo but mostly it just seems like it sitting up way too high..

Again, this indicates to me the frog and the base are not a match.

From:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer&p=1156032#post1156032


Before installing the frog, place it on the base and make sure it seats firmly without screws. It should not wiggle.

If it the frog is incorrect for the base, it doesn't matter how solid it may seat. It is sure to cause some problems.

Looking around on the internet it seems there isn't much about these planes. There are a few pictures but nothing that shows a base and a frog to tell if yours is the same.

jtk

[Tom Vanzant]

Paul, I am in agreement with Jim...the frog is wrong for the base. When you hold the frog firmly against the three flats, does the front edge of the frog contact the machined flat behind the mouth? If not, you either have the wrong frog or the frog has been altered, as appears to be the case. If there is a gap...you mention it sits high...tightening the frog screws will draw the front edge down to contact the bed, but none of the frog mating surfaces will be in full contact with the bed. Nothing good will come of that. FWIW, I have never seen a mixture of blue and black in the same plane. Hint...

[Paul Fisicaro]

All my trustworthy planes have Sargent frogs and I have 3 of them so it looks to be the right frog. My No. 4 and my No. 5's frog match up way better than the No. 3 though and all three frogs are painted the identical blue trustworthy colored paint.

[Jim Koepke]

All my trustworthy planes have Sargent frogs and I have 3 of them so it looks to be the right frog. My No. 4 and my No. 5's frog match up way better than the No. 3 though and all three frogs are painted the identical blue trustworthy colored paint.

Do the other frogs mate to the base near the mouth? Are the other Sargent frogs of the same design? Are the bases the same?

If so all that is left is to it back together and see if you can figure out what is preventing it from making shavings like the others. It is usually the shaving is catching somewhere and they pile up causing it hard to push the plane.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Ok, I do have a standing offer here and at other sites:

Mail any plane to me, I will rehab it back to as like-new status as I can. A return postage label in the box the plane(s) came in will be used to send the rehabbed plane(s) back to their home. Only money charged for this? round trip postage. I even use the box to return the items with. I have been known to include the shavings it makes when I am done with it.

Normal turn around at my place? Day after the box arrives, it is ready to go back into the mail. Unless the box arrives on a Saturday......then Monday it will be shipped back.

PM for mailing address.

[Paul Fisicaro]

Ill keep that in mind, Steve. Thank you! I really like to fix this thing myself or at least learn and trouble shoot....Here are the pics of the 3 planes. I just got the first one so I havent cleaned it up yet...

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