Ionizers

[Reed Gray]

I was just down at a local Good Earth Home and Garden show and was talking to some one who was selling ionizers. The sales pitch was cleans up to 3,000 sq. ft. house, removing ALL particulate matter down to 1/2 micron. Particles fall to the floor and sit till cleaned up. So, I am wondering if any one uses one of these in the shop, or if any one has ever thought about doing this...

robo hippy

[Lee Watermann]

I had one for the house and didn't like the smell. I did some research on the net and found your not suppose to breathes too much of it. There's a lot of talk about it.
Took it back.
Lee

[Allan Speers]

There's one small downside to ionizers:

They cause cancer.



Other than THAT .......

[Brian Kent]

We tried one to clean up odors in a large public space. The smell was worse than what we were trying to clean up.

[Art Mann]

The best solution for dust control in a shop is to capture and remove dust at the source. Using any kind of room air filter is like shutting the barn door after the horse has escaped. I doubt if any filter that is designed for a house will do anything useful in a wood shop.

[Hayes Rutherford]

Reed, I have an ozone generator that is a heavy duty version of what car detailers use to deodorize cars. It has been useful for several things like curing new finish on wood, accelerating the oxidation of freshly cut wood, de-oderizing rental homes, de oderizing vehicles, and I strongly believe it makes particles drop out of the air at an accelerated rate. It is really noticable how fast walnut oil hardens when exposed.

I also used it last summer when we were at level 2 evacuation because of close by forest fires. Running it indoors made a noticable improvement in the air quality.

Im not sure if this is the same as an "ionizer" but after using what I have, the air smells fresh like after a lightening storm.

[Reed Gray]

An old room mate had one years ago, and there was a black film on the wall where it sat. Same film as I would find on the TV screen. I don't know if I will try it or not. Does any one know if they are used in hospitals? I had heard a few years back that some hospitals used a water bath for their filtered air, which would of course remove any particulate matter. Also makes me wonder about having a 1/2 micron filter for the house air....

robo hippy

[Charles Randal Smith]

Reed,

I wonder if it was an ion cluster generator. They are in use in countries like Korea and Japan and in scattered places in Europe, but have not cracked the North American market yet.

They generate clusters of ions (H+ and OH-) adherent to water molecules, and turn VOCs (volatile organic compounds) into CO2 and H2O. They are great for cleaning up things like formaldehyde (and in funeral homes they kill the smells of decomposition). They do not generate potentially harmful levels of ozone. But they do kill bacteria on surfaces or airborne (99.9% kill rate) and also many types of viruses. They also extend the shelf life of fresh fruit and vegetables.

I have been in a room with a cigarette smoker several feet away from me and could not smell the smoke. Indeed, the smell they generate is that of the air following a rain shower, which is because it is also laden with ion clusters.

In the far east, hospitals and casinos use them to kill the smells and to reduce the likelihood of disease transmission by airborne bacteria and viruses. Smaller units are being developed for personal spaces. A friend of mine has patented one that plugs into a USB port and keeps the air fresh in your local space — perfect for riding on crowded airplanes. He has installed them in garbage rooms in apartment buildings and condominium buildings, and you can’t tell you are in a garbage room. A friend installed one in a nursing home he owns, and the staff wondered where the bad smells went.

Charles

[Bill Boehme]

Reed,

It's pure Snake Oil malarkey. Far up north where the climate is cold and dry, everything develops a static charge. On the Gulf coast, the high humidity prevents any static charges from occurring. Dust floats around in the air in both places. The funniest part of their pitch is that the dust just drops to the floor ... no doubt like a meteorite from space.

Since semiconductor devices are somewhat sensitive to ESD (electrostatic discharge), workstations take all sorts of precautions such as grounding the worker and all tools, using conductive plastic floor mats and table tops. Sometimes you will even see de-ionizers used within a few inches of the work -- the idea being that it will neutralize any static charges in the air. Their use has been hotly debated. The aren't any definitive studies that show any benefit. There's plenty of reason to believe that actually create a problem.

In any event, the effect of trying to create an ionized charge in the air would have a very short range (as in a few inches) and a longevity of a few seconds, at best.

When I was a gullible teenager I bought one of those static charge zappers recommended by Stereo Review magazine. You point it at a vinyl LP and pulled the trigger a couple times and it supposedly squirted out some ions that somehow was supposed to remove static charge from the LP. It HAD to work because all the stereo gurus said that it would.

Sure, Reed, go ahead and buy one.

[Bill Boehme]

Reed, I have an ozone generator that is a heavy duty version of what car detailers use to deodorize cars. It has been useful for several things like curing new finish on wood, accelerating the oxidation of freshly cut wood, de-oderizing rental homes, de oderizing vehicles, and I strongly believe it makes particles drop out of the air at an accelerated rate. It is really noticable how fast walnut oil hardens when exposed.

I also used it last summer when we were at level 2 evacuation because of close by forest fires. Running it indoors made a noticable improvement in the air quality.

Im not sure if this is the same as an "ionizer" but after using what I have, the air smells fresh like after a lightening storm.

Ozone and ionized charges are two different things. The oxygen gas molecule in its normal state consists of two atoms of the element oxygen bonded into a molecule sometimes also called dioxygen, O2. Ozone is a molecule that has three oxygen atoms, O3. Diatomic oxygen and ozone are known as allotropes of oxygen.

In the atmosphere, ozone is mainly found at two different levels -- the upper atmosphere and ground level. Ozone in the upper atmosphere serves a critical function of blocking harmful UV radiation. Ground level ozone is a product of smog and is very toxic because it is such a strong oxidizer. It has a number of industrial uses due to its strong oxidizing property. It's toxic properties make it useful for sterilizing equipment without leaving a residue behind. In the early 1900s some new office buildings were equipped with ozone generators because of the perceived health benefits. When people started getting severely ill, it took a while before it was figured out that the ozone was the problem ... illness that they thought ozone would prevent and not be the cause. Ozone is the cause of numerous respiratory ailments and one of the reasons why breathing smog is unhealthy. Workers doing arc welding work outdoors or in very well ventilated areas with adequate airflow because of the amount of ozone generated.

I am extremely concerned that you would use an ozone generator in your home. While it may be good for deodorizing, you shouldn't be breathing ozone. But, if you think that I am overreacting, just tell your family doctor what you are doing to see what he says.

Ozone doesn't have a static charge ... it's just an allotrope of oxygen and for sure dust particles aren't going to fall out of the air because of it -- smog being a case in point.

EDIT: Here is a link to the EPA on the effects of ozone: http://www3.epa.gov/ozonepollution/health.html
Here is information specifically addressing ozone generators: http://allergyclean.com/article-ozonegenerators.htm
American Lung Association: http://www.stateoftheair.org/2013/health-risks/health-risks-ozone.html
NASA: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OzoneWeBreathe/ozone_we_breathe2.php
Finally, here is one more from the California EPA: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/ozone_gen_fact_sheet-a.pdf

[Hayes Rutherford]

Don't worry Bill, I try not to breathe too much.

Shouldn't welders worry about other toxic fumes besides ozone? Burning flux is pretty nasty. Aren't there other components of smog like VOC's, nitric oxide, nitrogen dioxide, suffer dioxide, and various other particulate matter associated with tailpipe emissions, volcanoes, dust from overly tilled farm land- laden with chemical fertilizers, refineries, factories, incinerators, etc. that are also bad for us??

[Matt Schrum]

It's been a while since I brushed up on the subject, but I believe ozone is a byproduct of the ionizer and is not generated to assist in dust removal.

The ionizers I am familiar with use very large voltages across alternating plates (or mesh screens) spaced close together. One plate is a few thousand volts positive, the other negative, the next positive and so forth. Now, while it is a few thousand volts, it is relatively low current and safe.

As air and particles flow past the plates, the voltage field imposes a charge on the particles, which subsequently stick to one of the plates (either positive or negative depending on the particle charge). You come through and wipe off the plates every now and again and that's it. I understand that they are incredibly effective at removing particles and don't have a filter you have to replace.

That being said, unless they are using a different design, these things generally generate ozone. The highly charged plates will cause some O2 molecules (normal, diatomic oxygen) to split/bond and form O3 (ozone). While ozone is fairly reactive and great at eliminating strong odors, it can also aggravate asthma and just isn't that good to breathe. Those ionic breezes that were all the rage a decade ago cleaned the air great, but people were putting them at their bedside and breathing ozone all night.

Finally, I do believe many commercial systems use ionizers and they are fairly commonplace. I do not know how they cope with any ozone issues, but there must be someway around it or the concentration of ozone is small enough that it's fairly diluted once you get a ways away from the unit (which I am guessing is the case). I have thought about installing one in my shop, but I haven't been able to justify it yet. I'd be curious to see what other's experiences are.

[Wes Ramsey]

As bad as it is to breathe, ozone also melts rubber or at least causes it to lose elasticity - socks, undies, and that sort of thing will lose their stretch quickly when exposed to ozone.

[Bill Boehme]

There are several different types of devices. I believe that for the type using charged plates O3 is just a low level byproduct, but they really aren't very effective in cleaning the air unless used in conjunction with a filter. I'm not familiar with the design of ionizers, but a pair of charged plates doesn't sound like it would accomplish much since there would be an equal number of positive and negative charged molecules and particles that would quickly recombine charges because of close proximity and become neutralized. Now, a hair-raising device like a Van de Graaff generator would be interesting.

Ozone doesn't melt rubber, but it does cause rubber to lose its elasticity and become hard. That's known as ozone cracking or sometimes called dry rotting when referring to tires. There are so many different products today that we call rubber and many are not susceptible to ozone cracking, but rubber bandsaw tires are generally susceptible.

[John Donhowe]

I'm pretty sure the reason these electrostatic cleaners work is that one set of charged plates (or often wires) is upstream of the oppositely charged plates. The air flow carries the charged particles along to the other plates, where they are attracted and stick. What the particles are doing, in essence, is completing an electrical circuit, and creating a small current flow.

BTW, your earlier comments about snake oil were spot on.
I wonder if it was an ion cluster generator...They generate clusters of ions (H+ and OH-) adherent to water molecules, and turn VOCs (volatile organic compounds) into CO2 and H2O. As a chemist, this is bogus. If this "cluster generator" were indeed able to create "clusters" of H+ and OH- from water, they would indeed recombine almost immediately to reform water. In any case, they will not turn VOC's into CO2 and H2O. I tried without success to find online some solid scientific basis for the cluster generator. As best I can tell, it's a marketing name for a standard electrostatic cleaner. The units also contain HEPA and charcoal filters, which probably do more than the "generator". I think the developers are involved in another form of "cluster" ;). The "smell of a rain shower" is probably ozone!