Sharpening frustration - I need a one-size-fits-all method [Archive]

Mike Dowell

01-20-2016, 9:57 AM

Hey everyone! I need to sharpen my chisels and I'm frustrated. I keep putting it off because I believe I've over-thought sharpening, and now it has become some sort of a big shop obstacle, which it should not be. I've looked around, watched youtube videos, etc, and it seems like everywhere you go, folks say something different. You watch Paul Sellers, and he swears by diamond stones, but then you shop around, and find people in forums talking about how diamond stones aren't flat enough, or they wear too much, or any other number of negative things about that. The same information seems to be out there for water stones. Before this turns into a rant(did it already? sorry.), let me tell you what I have.

(4) chisels and a couple of planes. Easy right?

Here are a few things I own for sharpening:

-Veritas MKII honing guide
-Norton combo stone (1k/4k I think - it's the light brown and tan one)
-Granite reference block
-PSA 3M paper of multiple grades

now here are my experiences:

Scary sharp method - wears out paper *almost* immediately, and I made the mistake of sticking it down to the granite, and boy does it stick!

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

So, in closing, I don't need my tools to be sharper than a razor blade, but I do need them sharp. I really wish there was some fast, easy way to sharpen - at least for chisels. It would be nice if I could just take my 4 chisels at the end of the day, and just clean them all up in 20 minutes. Am I dreaming? Before I go and buy any other sharpening tool, I need you all clear-minded folks to smack me and put my in my place.

Thoughts?

Prashun Patel

01-20-2016, 10:01 AM

Sounds like the easiest path to completion for you would be to get some good stones. My Shaptons (I have a 1000 and an 8000) get and stay flat pretty well. They don't require soaking; just a spritz, so I find them convenient.

I use an MKII for critical blades that I don't want to sharpen often. But for chisels, I have found that free hand sharpening is quick, and pretty easy to master - even if you flat grind your bevels as I do. Free handing chisels will liberate you from worrying too much about bevel angles, and will get you to the stone and back to the bench more frequently and with less dread.

Sean Hughto

01-20-2016, 10:13 AM

It all works, and you'll get a variety of replies based on what an individual fortuitously got comfortable with. You need stones that are 3x8 or so to do chisels and hand plane blades with the guide easily. You have the Norton I guess for the shaping of the initial bevel, but you need another norton with something like 8k for finishing and maybe a leather strop charged with LV's green stick to polish and for in-between sharpening touch ups. There is nothing magical about sharpening a straight blade with a guide. Set the guide to obtain a burr and then let the wire edge off with working the back and bevel on a fine stone - polish with a stroke or two on the al-ox (green stuff) and you should have a nice edge.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=32984&cat=1,43072

Chris Hachet

01-20-2016, 10:18 AM

I find Diamond stones to work well. YMMV.

Nick Stokes

01-20-2016, 10:38 AM

*I will preface this by saying. I am new to all of this. I do not have a lot of $$ to spend.

You have already spent far more money than I did on sharpening. I have no idea if I am getting my irons/chisels as sharp as some of the dudes on here. But they are sharp enough to slice the hell out of my finger if I slip, and for some stupid reason I occasionally shave the hair off my arm... (What does this prove?)

Coarse, Fine, Extra Fine diamond plate. I have had em 6 months and I haven't touched them other than a spirtz of glasscleaner/water mix, and wipe off after. They sit out on a little shelf next to my bench. Walk over, spritz, slide that sucker around for 10 seconds or so per stone, wipe it off, go on with my life.

I will use a cheap eclipse style honing guide to remedy problems with restoration irons... but anything that is a daily user, I just roll with it.

Do I sometimes miss the "angle" well yea. Are they sometimes not as "sharp" as others due to variations in my free hand method... yea... But i'm going to hit it again at the end of the workday anyway, so, better luck next time. And, with a setup like this, there's no reason you can't head over to the stone halfway through a set of mortises if your not happy with how it's cuttin. Or hell, you get tired a swingin the mallet, take you a sip of coffee, and sharpen that sucker up before you go back to it.

* I just re-read your original Post... 20 MINUTES! Mike, you have to change that mindset imo... I'm talking about 30 seconds per chisel.

David Eisenhauer

01-20-2016, 10:59 AM

Sharpening is something that you just need to get used to making a routine part of the work and not a big-deal item that takes tons of thought and setup time. Create some type of "sharpening station" (however small and or temporary) that stays out in view during your hand tool working sessions and use it whenever you feel something is losing an edge sufficiently to affect your work. Going forward with what you have already, Sean says it above. Use a finer stone after using the 1K/4K combo stone to further refine the edge and use the sandpaper on the granite reference block to flatten the stones after/during use. Flattening a water stone should take maybe 30 sec ea, and is not a technical operation that requires lots of attention. Scribble a pencil mark over the surface of the stone, rub the stone on the paper and quit when the pencil marks have disappeared. I believe the main thing is to get started and soon enough sharpening will become a routine operation. I would say stick with what you have for now and make it effective, then, over time, you may wish to try something else. At that time, you should have a better feel for what change you would like to accomplish in your sharpening routine. I think that sharpening is one of those things that has way too many options for the "thinking" woodworker and is in danger of paralysis-by-analysis.

ken hatch

01-20-2016, 11:37 AM

lowell holmes

01-20-2016, 11:38 AM

I find Diamond stones to work well. YMMV.

I'm with Chris. I have oil stones, water stones, and diamond plates. Also, sandpaper on granite plate.

My fine diamond stone stays out on the bench for instant touch up sharpening. Don't forget hone to finish the edge.

bridger berdel

01-20-2016, 11:44 AM

Bench grinder, 2 stones and a strop. Water stones need constant maintenance, they are messy and the water promotes rust, but they cut fast and since you have them, stick with it. Ditch the sandpaper, make a strop from a scrap of hardwood or mdf with green compound. 4k to the chrome oxide strop will work fine. The bench grinder is for rehabbing after a chipped edge, resetting bevels after the microbevel gets too long or reshaping abused and vintage finds. You will need a way to true up the grinding wheels.

Also, try going without the angle jig.

Kees Heiden

01-20-2016, 11:50 AM

Cheapest and simplest is an India coarse/fine stone and a strop charged with green compound or Autosol. No honing guide. Set the bevel on the coarse stone and rub it back and forth until you can feel a burr on the other side. Set it on the fine stone and feel until you feel the bevel setting on the stone, raise it a little higher and rub on the fine stone. Do the back side on the fine stone and then work it front and back on the strop until the burr is gone. No need to worry about flatness for the first coupe of years.

But you allready have the Norton so I would use that. Maybe add the finest of these 3M papers. Forget about the honing guide, only makes things more complicated. You can use coarse sandpaper to keep the stone flat, but don't exaggerate, without the honing guide it doesn't need to be machine room flat all the time. Just try to keep it in reasonable margins.

Chris Hachet

01-20-2016, 11:56 AM

Mike,

First there is no one way that is best for all edge tools but they will all work on most tools. Each is a trade off of speed, ease of maintenance, and cost. For cheap, easy to maintain and will work on most tools it is hard to beat a three stone set of oil stones, Med India, Soft Ark, and Hard Black or Translucent Ark plus a strop. You can get the three stones from TFWW for about $130 USD, add a strop with maybe some green stuff and you are good for almost any sharping need except for maybe HSS.

ken

I used to use Oil Stones for sharpening, they do stay flat much better than water stones.

Robert Engel

01-20-2016, 12:03 PM

Here's my opinon FWIW:

Forget the sandpaper and go with stones.

Quality made diamond plates are flat don't let anyone tell you they aren't.
I use DMT I have both the mesh (coarse/xtra coarse & fine/xtra fine) and DiaSharp 8000 plate.
I like the Diasharp better and if I had to do over would not get the mesh plates.
I would recommend a fairly coarse and a fine, something like 300 and 1000. I would take a look at the Trend 2 sided diamond plate.
You need a decent sized stone, at least a 3X8 stone. I splurged on the DuoSharps and got the 4x10 I like the bigger size.

For polishing I use a 4000/8000 Norton water stone. I use the 300 grit diamond plate to keep them flat (do this after every session).
Most times I finish with a leather strop.

For typical on the fly sharpening I hit the 1250 then the 4000 then 8000 and a few strokes on the strop.

In summary:
300/1000 diamond (I like the Trend stones) + 4K/8K water + strop.
This combo will get you 90% of what you need to do.
Shaptons: I've used ceramic stones and personally I don't think they are worth the expense.
Eventually put the jig in a drawer and learn to sharpen freehand.

Wayne Taylor

01-20-2016, 12:16 PM

Jim Koepke

01-20-2016, 12:29 PM

Mike,

IMO, you may be working too hard thinking about your sharpening needs. One more stone in the 6-8000 range would likely serve you well. Take heed the numbers may mean a different particle size from different manufactures. If my memory is working my Norton 8000 has about a 2 micron particle size. That seems to meet my needs.

If you like the water stones, stick with them. I am a bit of an outlier with water stones. Mine only get flattened when they really need it. Using the full surface as much as possible helps to prolong times between flattening. This is easier when freehand sharpening. Turn the stone end for end so the wear is more evenly distributed. Also remember some water stones will dish more than others.

At one time oilstones didn't seem to work for me. It was amazing how much better they worked once I learned how to sharpen with water stones.

A lot of confusion is generated by different folks treating the different sharpening methods like a religion.

There is the church of Sellers and the rounded bevel. This can be a disaster on water stones as it is very easy to dig in to the surface.

The church of the hollow grind has some interesting features. It requires a bench grinder and removes more metal than I feel is necessary.

Some follow the teachings of the flat bevel. (that is the church of my choice)

Then there are the micro bevels, back bevels and a few I have likely missed.

The important thing is learning to get an edge sharp enough for your work. Remember sharp is a moving target and learning to sharpen doesn't happen in a day. I learned the basic idea of sharpening many years ago. My interest picked up a lot more about 15 years ago and I am still learning and improving. It is a long journey with many tempting plateaus.

My advice is to keep it simple. Once you can get a straight sharp edge consistently then if you like try some of the other variations or add on features.

The trick to freehand sharpening is to keep your hands straight so the bevel's contact with the stone doesn't change. Do not try for speed when first learning this. Once you get the accuracy, speed will come naturally.

There really isn't any 'magic' to the skill of sharpening. Using a guide can make it easier and faster. To me, it is like training wheels. Once you get the movement memory in your hands, arms and body, the training wheels can come off and you will find it is faster since there isn't any time spent setting up and cleaning the guide.

jtk

Patrick Chase

01-20-2016, 12:51 PM

Must... resist... temptation (take a long look at the subject line).

With that out of the way, I have a few thoughts:

"Scary sharp"
isn't a particularly economical way to sharpen, but the sandpaper shouldn't wear out as quickly as you describe. What paper are you using, and what sorts of steels are you sharpening? Is it possible you're using too much pressure?

Is your "3M PSA paper" actually paper or is it lapping film? Granite works well for sandpapers, but IMO it's a little too rough to use as a substrate for films. Float glass is better for those. FWIW I sometimes use 3M 661X diamond film on really difficult steels, and I stick it to the glass with a very thin film of mineral oil (very similar to fluid-mounting photographic film for scanning).

The "Stikit" line of 3M sandpapers have fairly weak PSA adhesives that might be easier to deal with.

You might want to get a glass plate, some SiC grit, and laminating sheets to flatten your Norton stone.

Finally, I think the main thing you need to do is practice. Cleaning up 4 chisels in 20 min should be easily achieved with the equipment you have, provided you don't have to do major material removal due to folding/chipping.

IMO the only thing "scary" about it is that Brent actually convinced people it was something new. P.T. Barnum had it about right...

glenn bradley

01-20-2016, 12:53 PM

You are caught in a twofold dilemma; firstly, people have almost as strong opinions about sharpening methods as they do about hand plane adjustments (read "endless") and secondly, you are seeking a one-size-fits-all which ALWAYS results in a thing that works great for something and is a compromise for everything else.

If your scary sharp paper wears out too soon it is either poor paper or you are using the scary sharp method for too much material removal; they make other things for that. I remember watching someone on a forum use a Worksharp 3000 to shape a new and different primary bevel on a chisel. You could perform this task on a Tormek with equal or even greater time consumption but, why would you? My point is that there are items and methods for different sharpening tasks and a set of stones is not the end-all, be-all.

I commiserate with your overthinking standstill, sharpening is certainly one of the places where that can happen. I use chisels, gouges, planes, scrapers, shaves, etc. While most flat irons have the same basic requirement, short or long/heavy irons can require "extras". I would focus on what you have the most of (most of your chisels and planes for example) and get a system for those that works for you. Once this baseline methodology is established you can add-on for cutters with more special needs.

If it makes you feel any better I have stones, slips, rods, diamond plates, discs and paddles, a Veritas guide, a Kell guide, a Larson-style guide, a Worksharp 3K, scary sharp system and bench grinders. None of these gather any moss ;-)

Patrick Chase

01-20-2016, 12:55 PM

The church of the hollow grind has some interesting features. It requires a bench grinder and removes more metal than I feel is necessary.

Some follow the teachings of the flat bevel. (that is the church of my choice)

Grinding removes a tiny bit "more metal" when you establish the hollow for the very first time (and the volume of the hollow is actually stunningly small). After that you only remove as much as you need to keep the secondary bevel thin, and that ends up being exactly the same amount as you remove to achieve the same thing with a flat bevel.

Nicholas Lawrence

01-20-2016, 12:56 PM

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

I don't need my tools to be sharper than a razor blade, but I do need them sharp.

I am not a sharpening guru, and I don't have every stone ever produced. Those guys will probably show up, and generally know what they are talking about, so don't mistake what follows as a suggestion they are completely full of it. I just don't know how helpful some of the extremely nuanced things they talk about are to a person learning to sharpen. If you find them helpful by all means, pull up a chair and start reading. You don't even have to wait for them to show up, you can just do a search and find 9000 threads that went 20 pages about the best way to sharpen anything with all kinds of (usually expensive) options. Then you can flip a coin and pick one side of the argument, and buy whatever that side uses, because you probably won't be able to tell which side is actually right.

Here's my opinion. If you are just starting out, and don't know what you are doing, you don't need to go out and buy a bunch of stuff. You have what you need, and need to focus on learning to use it. I have a Norton 1000/8000, which was the Lie Nielsen recommended stone two or three years ago. I am not sure what has happened that suddenly makes the Norton Stones unfit for use. If you go back in the archives, you will find posts telling people the King stones were the bees knees, and then all of a sudden they were crap and the Nortons were far superior. Wait a week, and people will be telling you the Shaptons are fit for nothing but doorstops, because somebody will invent something even better. Fact is the Kings probably used to be able to sharpen a chisel, the Nortons will sharpen a chisel, and so will the Shaptons, and so will diamond stones. If you had nothing and were buying new, that would be one thing, but to chuck perfectly good stones you already have when you don't really know what you want makes little sense to me.

It sounds like you probably have a 1000/4000. I have the 8000, and use it and like it, and it makes a good edge. Don't tell the guys that go up to 16000 before switching to a horse leather strop (only horse leather, only the correct part of the horse mind you, and only the correct side of the leather will do), but sometimes 1000 is all I need and I don't always bother to go to the 8000. It depends on what I am doing and the finish I need. I would think for someone learning to sharpen, you probably will be fine going from 1000 to 4000, and when you get more experience and want something better you can go out and get it.

I don't disagree with the people that say freehand is best, but without somebody to spend ten minutes showing you how to do things, it can be hard to learn freehand. A guide will get you a good edge, and there is nothing wrong with using it. Sandpaper wears too fast and is too expensive. For chisels Norton waterstones are fine. Don't lose sleep about them going out of flat. It happens, and you need to flatten occasionally. They don't go dramatically out of flat just sitting there. It takes a while, and you can get a lot of good edges off the stone before you have to flatten it. You can go longer if you move the chisel around on the stone so it wears more evenly. If you sharpen a few times and the edge seems fine, you start wondering why people need moon dust sprinkled on titanium, mixed with an eye of newt to get the stone flattened to .0000000001 before the chisel can be permitted in the same building with it.

If you don't know if your stones are flat enough, put a piece of 400 or 600 grit sandpaper on your granite block, mark the stone with a pencil, and rub it back and forth until the pencil marks are gone. That will be flat enough to get you a good edge. The sharpening gods will be able to get a flatter stone and a better edge, and their electron scanning microscopes will demonstrate the superior quality of the surface, but for normal guys trying to work normal wood, I think what I am describing will work. In any event it will get you some practical experience you can use to evaluate the product recommendations these threads often turn into. A lot of the trouble in sharpening advice is that people are arguing most passionately about it are trying to marginally improve very fine edges. To them it all makes a difference, but to normal people either edge, and either bag of gear and tricks would be more than adequate.

Bottom line is you can get a good edge with what you have. Not the sharpest edge humankind has ever seen. But a good edge. If you need some more advice, Lie Nielsen has a YouTube channel (free) that had good videos about sharpening the last time I looked. I would look at them and spend some time using what you have before you pull out the credit card.

paul cottingham

01-20-2016, 1:05 PM

Beltgrinder, 10,000 grit stone and a strop. I get good edges.

Jim Koepke

01-20-2016, 1:05 PM

Grinding removes a tiny bit "more metal" when you establish the hollow for the very first time (and the volume of the hollow is actually stunningly small). After that you only remove as much as you need to keep the secondary bevel thin, and that ends up being exactly the same amount as you remove to achieve the same thing with a flat bevel.

Yes Patrick, in skilled hands a bench grinder shouldn't remove much metal and with care will not overheat the metal.

Sadly, I have seen too many tools after meeting the bench grinder in unskilled hands.

I have never over heated a blade when hand sharpening a flat bevel. Unless I fall asleep and keep sharpening it isn't likely I'll remove too much metal while honing a flat bevel.

jtk

Patrick Chase

01-20-2016, 1:13 PM

Yes Patrick, in skilled hands a bench grinder shouldn't remove much metal and with care will not overheat the metal.

It doesn't take that much skill - the trick is simply to avoid grinding the edge.

It's pretty hard to burn a tool by grinding on the primary bevel face alone, because when doing so you have both high effective thermal mass and good conductivity. Where people get into trouble is when they grind a thin edge. Of course sometimes you do have to work the edge, for example to repair a chip, and in that case the trick is to grind the edge back at 90 deg and then work the primary bevel...

Kees Heiden

01-20-2016, 1:36 PM

Nicholas is absolutely right. You allready have all you need. No need to spend money now, you just need practice.

Stew Hagerty

01-20-2016, 2:29 PM

Nicholas is absolutely right. You allready have all you need. No need to spend money now, you just need practice.

I agree to a point. If you do not plan on continuing to use paper, then I would get a strop & some green compound to add to your combo-stone regimen. After you're done with the 4000 side, give it about 3 swipes on the strop and you should end up with a edge sharp enough for just about anything you could run into.

Oh... One more thing. A couple of guys have said to scrap your honing guide and go freehand. While you certainly can do this, I have found that my time is better spent using sharp tools that teaching my body some muscle memory. At least while you are learning, that would be my recommendation. You already have the guide so it's not an added expense.

For what it's worth, I use Oil Stones. I have Course, Medium, & Fine India Stones from Norton for rough work on damaged blades. For everyday sharpening & honing, I have a set of 3 Dan's Whetsones. I have a Soft Arkansas, a Hard Arkansas, and a Black Arkansas. And I still keep a strop hanging on a board for quicky touch-ups.

Jim Koepke

01-20-2016, 2:34 PM

Nicholas is absolutely right. You allready have all you need. No need to spend money now, you just need practice.

+1 on this good advice.

jtk

Christian Thompson

01-20-2016, 3:17 PM

+1 on this good advice.

jtk

Me too. I think I have the same 1K / 4K combo and it works fine (I do finish with a 8k stone, but a strop works too). The trick to getting stuff done quickly, like others have mentioned, is practice. Sometimes using the jig is fiddly and takes a lot of time. I used to have a really hard time with getting whatever I was sharpening square in the jig so I would end up with bevels that weren't parallel (edit - this really bothered me so I would spend a lot of time trying to fix it). Getting the "cambered" roller attachment helped, but soon after that I went to free hand which saves a bunch of time. In my opinion free hand is the way to go once you get a feeling for what your tools look and feel like when they are sharp or dull. At that point touching up 4 chisels at the end of the day shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

As far as flat with the water stones go, I might be in the minority, but I just don't worry that much about it. I definitely don't flatten every time I use a stone. If it gets bad I have a diamond stone I use to flatten the water stone. I used to try to use wet/dry sandpaper on glass and that was a huge PITA. But with the diamond stone it is really easy and quick. I agree with some of the criticism that water stones are messy, but it is manageable. As far as rust goes, I just wipe my tools a few times with an oily rag after sharpening and have never had an issue.

Andrew Pitonyak

01-20-2016, 3:29 PM

... it seems like everywhere you go, folks say something different. You watch Paul Sellers, and he swears by diamond stones, but then you shop around, and find people in forums talking about how diamond stones aren't flat enough, or they wear too much, or any other number of negative things about that. The same information seems to be out there for water stones. Before this turns into a rant(did it already? sorry.), let me tell you what I have.

My biggest complaint with diamond stones is that there is usually more uneveness to the grit size (or something), so it generally leaves more scratches. If you but metal to your diamond stones and you do not see this, well, then move on and use them if you desire.

-Veritas MKII honing guide
-Norton combo stone (1k/4k I think - it's the light brown and tan one)
-Granite reference block
-PSA 3M paper of multiple grades

I vaguely remember hearing people discussing gluing down sandpaper, but for really fine grits, this was a problem. Historically, I just used water to hold things down. Not as nice as as the other, but I am using wet/dry sand paper.

Scary sharp method - wears out paper *almost* immediately, and I made the mistake of sticking it down to the granite, and boy does it stick!

That concerns me (the wearing out almost immediately part).

When do you wear it out? Are you doing this wet or dry?

Historically, I have used wet/dry automotive sandpaper. Is it possible that your sandpaper is loading up with metal?

With sandpaper, I usually pull the blade with the sharp part not being pushed into the paper (since I have punctured / ripped the paper doing that).

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

So, in closing, I don't need my tools to be sharper than a razor blade, but I do need them sharp. I really wish there was some fast, easy way to sharpen - at least for chisels. It would be nice if I could just take my 4 chisels at the end of the day, and just clean them all up in 20 minutes. Am I dreaming? Before I go and buy any other sharpening tool, I need you all clear-minded folks to smack me and put my in my place.

Thoughts?

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

So initially it did not dish, but now it does? That sounds suspicious. Did you leave it soaking too long and break down the binder or something? I know that you should soak the Norton for about 10 minutes before use. And do not let them freeze, especially wet. Off hand, I think that Norton stones (like you have) can soak indefinitely, so that is likely not the problem.

http://www.nortonstones.com/uploadedFiles/SGnortonstones/Documents/Waterstone%20Users%20Guide.pdf

How do you flatten your stone?

So, you always use your honing guide? What is your regimen? Do you set one chisel, then work it all the way through so the angle remains consistent?

Have you ever tried to free-hand? This is easier if the front flat is concave from say a Tormek (or similar). If you want to try free handing, I can make this happen for you (as in I will send you some partially prepared chisels that you can practice on in various states of readiness). You live too far away to simply drop in to my shop. Alternatively, does anyone live near Mike that can help him out?

So, Mike, if you want me to do something, drop me a PM and I will make it happen.

Kees Heiden

01-20-2016, 3:38 PM

You were looking for a universal method. So, independent of the medium you want to:

- Create a burr. All the way across the edge.
- And remove it with finer media.

After that you have a sharp edge.

Tom Vanzant

01-20-2016, 3:43 PM

Exactly! (added characters to meet minimum)

david charlesworth

01-20-2016, 4:07 PM

\it seems that you already have all you need, it is just the method which is eluding you.

Not sure about your stone description. Brown is 1000grit suitable for raising a wire edge at say 30 or 33 degrees,

This then may be polished at 32 or 35 degrees with a polishing stone. Preferably Norton 8000 grit in your case, though 4000 would do. Wire edge taken off flat on the polishing stone.

Stones need constant flattening , and 240 or 180 wet and dry, used wet on your granite will do this job. No need to glue) Pencil lines show any wear.

My L-N DVD shows this process.

Water stones probably won't work for you unless you have a sink handy!

Best wishes,
David

Patrick Chase

01-20-2016, 4:36 PM

Water stones probably won't work for you unless you have a sink handy!

FWIW I use a couple of these when when I have limited access to running water : http://www.amazon.com/Norton-IM-83-Waterstone-Case/dp/B002BWOR54. It isn't very practical with combo stones though.

David, I could swear I once saw pictures of a Norton IM-83 in one of your FWW articles :-)

Curt Putnam

01-20-2016, 5:26 PM

All FWIW - When I first got serious about sharpening & honing some years ago, I bought a Worksharp 3000. With that I was able get my first workably sharp edges. Then, knowing what sharp was I read & experimented some. Managed to overheat some chisels before I had read enough. At the WIA in Pasadena I bought a set of PM-V11 chisels and some Blue Spruce paring chisels. That made me decide to buy a good set of stones so I went and bought the fabled 3 + the Atoma 400 from Stu. If you define sharpening as what happens up to 1000 grit and honing as grits higher >= 1000, then the set has me covered for honing. I have since purchased an 8K diamond, a 100 diamond and a 220 waterstone. Haven't had to grind my good chisels yet but I have used the stones on some real beaters. From all of this I conclude that I will use the WS3000 for grinding on all but the good chisels or plane blades but I mostly keep the leather disc in it coated with the LV green compound. Power stropping produces a great edge faster than any other method, IMO. I will use diamonds or oilstones for working carving tools.

I have a 1 x 42" belt sander that I keep loaded with a leather belt and green LV compound. It's great for knives and knife shaped objects. One of these days (yeah, right) I'm going to build a 2" slow speed, horizontal belt grinder/sander (< 1000 SFPM) and set it up to use Tormek jigs.

I have the Veritas MKII jig and the cambered roller. Bought a Kell jig before they came out with the narrow blade holder. I need to use a jig because I have what is called essential tremors in my hands (shaky hands) which is why I can't freehand nor use a bench grinder very well.

In your situation I would add an 8K stone and a strop. Use that setup for a while and then you will, sooner or later, decide that something else is better. We all do. I've described one man's continuing journey in the world of sharpening. I hope maybe it helps.

David Bassett

01-20-2016, 5:32 PM

... I think that sharpening is one of those things that has way too many options for the "thinking" woodworker and is in danger of paralysis-by-analysis.

+1 to that.

I think the single thing that helped my sharpening most was a comment by Mike Siemsen, on his Naked Woodworker DVD, where he said something like, "... poorly sharpened is a lot better than dull and you'll do better next time...." He was talking about saws, but the comment resonated with me and helped me get beyond the "analysis paralysis" I was fighting. You seem to be in the same boat. (Not that I claim to be a good sharpener. Yet!)

I think there is another real issue that may be affecting this discussion, touching up an edge is very different than the initial sharpening needed for a new or damaged tool. I think a lot of experienced sharpeners talk about the former and many beginners get frustrated because they, starting with new, damaged, or severely dull tools can't sharpen with the described ease. Once an edge is "right", laying the bevel on a stone free hand and making a few passes at each grit to touch up an edge is very little work. Maybe using a guide and expecting to take longer to get to that first good edge is where the OP is right now? Anyway, don't beat yourself up and just practice.

Trevor Goodwin

01-20-2016, 5:46 PM

As far as flat with the water stones go, I might be in the minority, but I just don't worry that much about it. I definitely don't flatten every time I use a stone. If it gets bad I have a diamond stone I use to flatten the water stone. I used to try to use wet/dry sandpaper on glass and that was a huge PITA. But with the diamond stone it is really easy and quick. I agree with some of the criticism that water stones are messy, but it is manageable. As far as rust goes, I just wipe my tools a few times with an oily rag after sharpening and have never had an issue.

Just about every vintage oil-stone I've seen is dished out, but craftsmen were still getting good results with them. I think Paul Sellers has a post on his blog about the modern overemphasis on stone flatness. In my experience a water stone that is out of flatness only causes problems when flattening the back of a chisel or plane iron. The bevel on a chisel has such a small surface area relative to the stone that undulations of a stone are still flat locally. The key is to sharpen free hand and use as much of the stone as possible, avoiding back-and-forth motions in the one line which creates a sharp trench. I have not found small gouges in a stone (usually caused by lack of concentration) to cause problems either, as the bevel will skip over these spots.

When it comes to flattening I have good results on my Naniwa plates using the Norton flattening stone, which is just a flat chunk of coarse silicon carbide. It is a lot cheaper than diamond plates and should last a very long time because it is friable, unlike diamond plates. I have used my DMT X-coarse diamond plate in the past for flattening and it works well too, but after doing a few stones I found that it lost its "edge" and takes longer to flatten now.

Jim Koepke

01-20-2016, 7:08 PM

Water stones probably won't work for you unless you have a sink handy!

There is not a sink or running water in my shop. There is a plastic storage tub approximately 6X8X10 for soaking, a spray bottle for spritzing and a 1 gallon milk jug for more water. Not sure I would want to pour slurry down my drain. We have a septic system and I know it would take time, but I wouldn't want to fill it up with grit and steel.

jtk

Christian Thompson

01-20-2016, 7:21 PM

When it comes to flattening I have good results on my Naniwa plates using the Norton flattening stone, which is just a flat chunk of coarse silicon carbide. It is a lot cheaper than diamond plates and should last a very long time because it is friable, unlike diamond plates. I have used my DMT X-coarse diamond plate in the past for flattening and it works well too, but after doing a few stones I found that it lost its "edge" and takes longer to flatten now.

I've noticed that my diamond plate has been losing some of its bite as well. But it's been going for a few years and still seems like it has a lot of life left in it. Good suggestion on the flattening stone. That looks like a good alternative once my diamond plate finally gives up.

Jim Koepke

01-20-2016, 7:24 PM

I think there is another real issue that may be affecting this discussion, touching up an edge is very different than the initial sharpening needed for a new or damaged tool.

This may be the point of confusion for many new to the realm sharpening.

In my shop there is a 4 foot hunk of granite with PSA backed abrasive paper at 360 grit for those blades that need to be restored. This is often done with my makeshift rolling blade holder. It is pretty quick and a blade can get pretty warm on this.

There are some coarser stones in my shop. For anything coarser than my 1000 stone abrasive paper seems to be less hassle for me. My Veritas Mk.II Power Sharpening Has 80 grit if something really needs a lot of material removed.

Most of the time my chisel blades are maintained on the 4000 & 8000 stones. Occasionally if an edge chips or hits a knot it is touched up on the 1000 stone.

My plane blades may go longer in the bigger planes. A smoother with a dull blade is more noticeable than a dull blade in a jointer or jack. They usually get cleaned up with the 1000 grit stone before finishing on the finer stones.

In my case this changes during the times when it is below freezing in my shop. Then it all happens on oil stones.

Since the OP already has water stones I do not want to bring more confusion into play.

jtk

Brian Holcombe

01-20-2016, 9:57 PM

Most often if I can't get a blade sharp it is due to a wear bevel on the back of the blade.

I would grind the primary bevel using your guide and the sandpaper, get something like 25 or 30 degrees. Grind it back to the point where you are past the wear bevel in the blade.

Remove the burr.

Micro bevel the blade at 5 more degrees using the 1k/4K stones.

Use guides, get the thing right, then worry about free handing when you know what looks right for an angle. If I'm totally lost on a blade, I use the guide to straighten things out then I go back to freehand.

Dave Parkis

01-20-2016, 10:00 PM

To the OP; I think you are absolutely correct in that there are myriad opinions as to what's the best way. IME, they all work. I started with scary sharp and it worked, but I was going through sandpaper at an unbelievable rate. From there, I went to a set of 1K/4K/8K Norton stones and they worked too. Based on the list of what you have, I think you have almost everything you need and I'd make the following suggestions to you: 1- Only use the sandpaper for creating bevels and only use the pull stroke on sandpaper. Also, I think you'll have much better luck using the wet/dry sandpaper from an automotive supply house. 2- if you don't have the new attachment for your MK II, I suspect you'll find the MK II less than stellar with chisels. I have the MK II and I use that for plane irons and an Eclipse style for chisels. 3- Add a finer stone for your final honing. If you don't want to make that investment without being sure you need it, maybe there's someone close enough to you that you could "demo" a finer grit stone. 4- Give it a go. The worst thing that can happen is that you don't get a good edge initially. If that happens, try to figure out why you aren't getting a burr. If you are getting a burr at each step, it has to be somewhat sharp and that's a relative term. Good Luck!!

david charlesworth

01-21-2016, 3:24 AM

Patrick,

Yes indeed. That was a few years ago !!

David

Stewie Simpson

01-21-2016, 3:55 AM

David. You are indeed full of surprises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Benedict

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Charlesworth

david charlesworth

01-21-2016, 6:40 AM

And the Abbey is not far away.

I think google gets to the woodworking career quite quickly.

Best wishes, David Charlesworth

Kees Heiden

01-21-2016, 7:32 AM

I think we managed to scare off a sharpening newby once again. Mike hasn't replied yet, probably because he is hiding somewhere. :D

Derek Cohen

01-21-2016, 7:43 AM

STOP with all the recommendations for more sharpening media!

\it seems that you already have all you need, it is just the method which is eluding you.

.................

Best wishes,
David

EXACTLY!!!

Mike, I suggest that you get hold of David Charlesworth's DVDs on sharpening. It may not be the method that you follow in a few years, however David has such a clear explanation of what you need to do to create a sharp edge, that you will understand how to use the sharpening tools you already have (which are sufficient).

You need to understand what constitutes a sharp edge; how to use your waterstones and honing guide; and how to maintain your equipment. You do not appear to know any of this.

I will repeat what David has stated - what you have is sufficient for sharp edges, sharp enough to do most woodworking tasks. You just need to know how to get there with it.

Regards from Perth (back home)

Derek

george wilson

01-21-2016, 8:21 AM

Someone said that "diamond stones are flat,don't let anyone tell you they aren't." Well,I'LL tell you that some of them AREN'T! At least,not flat enough to lap your block plane flat with!!:) They are certainly flat enough to sharpen your plane iron and chisels with.

HOWEVER,I wanted to get a REAL flat diamond stone that was a steel plate,blanchard ground(old table saws and jointers were Blanchard ground,leaving large,circular swirls in them: Blanchard grinding is the cheapest and fastest method of finishing cast iron surfaces,but it is NOT a really accurate grinding method. These days,your new machines will have smooth,perfectly straight and VERY FINE table surfaces on them. They use huge grinding wheels as wide as the surfaces they are grinding. The tables of those "Saw Stop" saws are beautiful to behold.)

Anyhow,if you got through that last paragraph, I bought a stone that I think must have been crudely milled rather than ground. The blasted thing was sold in vacuum sucked down plastic,so it was impossible to accurately get a steel rule onto it. Hard even with the plastic OFF,the diamonds hold the steel rule up off of the stone. So,It's still difficult to see if the "stone" is flat,unless you have a keen and practiced eye(Which I do). So,the stone I bought wasn't very flat after I got the wrapper off and examined it. SO,back it went. I finally got one of those steel plate stones that was REASONABLY flat. My PLASTIC stones with a THIN steel plate with diamonds on them are flatter than the solid steel ones. Though,I bought an ATOMA steel plate type diamond stone from a member here,and it seems better quality than the other steel plate stones as far as flatness is concerned. Though I don't see any advantage in arranging the diamonds in little "diamond(as in a deck of cards) shapes. It just cuts down on the number of diamonds present on the plate. I just use it in the kitchen,and it makes a knife more than sharp enough for cutting food. My craftsman wife nearly fully cut off 1/16" of one of her fingers with our LV Japanese knife thus sharpened to a micro serrated edge with the Atoma.

George Wall

01-21-2016, 8:38 AM

I'll start by saying I'm a rank beginner at this whole sharpening thing, as hand tool woodworking is a relatively new hobby for me. So I cannot offer advice, only my perspective instead. So my apologies in advance if you are well past the points I'm about to share. The good and bad news of the internet, YouTube, etc. is that there is a wealth of information on sharpening out there. Unfortunately, the information available is often conflicting, or is sometimes incomplete, which makes it difficult to figure out what works, etc. I found that part of the confusion is that there are 3 aspects to sharpening: flattening the back, establishing the primary bevel, and honing. And some of the various YouTube videos and internet articles tend to either gloss over one of these aspects, or worse, use the terms interchangeably. The authors of the videos and articles often describe what works best for them after so many years of woodworking. However, what works best for them may not be ideal for a beginner who's struggling to even learn what sharp really means. Finally, there are numerous debates on various open forums, many of which go into nuances of the finer points of sharpening that may not matter to us mortals. The result was that I would try various methods, often incorrectly applying the underlying technique, and found myself getting frustrated at various times (still do, but less so now).

I have similar set up as yours, except I have a DMT extra coarse and coarse diamond stones for flattening the waterstones. I also used the Diamond stones for flattening the backs of the blades and chisels, and for establishing a primary bevel. I also have an 8K grit Norton stone, and use an Eclipse honing guide. I briefly tried freehand, but I found I could not easily "lock my arms" into the right position without confusing myself, so I bought the guide.

What really helped me was that I purchased David Charlesworth's streaming video on plane blade sharpening on the Lie Nielsen website (LN also sells DVD's of the same). David goes through some great lengths of explaining the technique and the reasons behind each step. At the beginning, David shows the tools he uses for sharpening, but he also gives some alternatives to his setup in case you don't have his exact set of stones. Very straightforward to watch, review, and follow along, as his instructions are geared for the beginner. And it's helped me immensely. I plan to buy his video on chisel sharpening soon, as my first purchase was one of my better uses of $25.

The advantage is that by following the Charlesworth video, it gave me an initial approach that I could practice over and over, with repeatable and (hopefully) improving results. I know there are videos available from other authors others as well that many regard as excellent resources (Rob Cosman, for example). But for now I'm trying to stick with one approach to avoid confusing myself all over again, which many folks here will tell you is fairly critical. I may (or may not) tweak things as I get more experienced. I should also disclose that I learn much better from watching a video than by reading a book; other folks learn differently.

As for practice, I did find it helpful to buy a new, replacement blade for my old plane, and an inexpensive set of 4 chisels from Woodcraft. The advantage is that while the backs of these may need polishing, it's relatively small amount of work. In fact, I'm not sure the LV and LN plane blades even need that (I've heard conflicting reports). I did polish the backs of the chisels on the diamond stone and then the waterstone. I could then move right to the honing step.

I also bought some beat up old chisels on that auction site. That gave me practice on flattening the back and establishing the primary bevel. That took a while on some of the chisels I had (some had no bevel at all!!), even on the extra coarse diamond stone. But once that's done, reestablishing a new primary is needed only after multiple honings, and doesn't take nearly as long as creating a 25 degree bevel out of a 90 degree one. Practicing on the beat up chisels gave me more confidence; it's not like I could screw those up any further.

I'll add my $0.02 to the freehand vs honing jig debate. First, noone is going to look at your finished product and be able to tell if you used a jig to sharpen your blades and chisels. I briefly tried the Veritas jig, but found it cumbersome (other folks have the opposite experience). As I mentioned, I was not comfortable doing it freehand. So I spent the $8 on the Eclipse, which I really like. It does add a minute or two per blade to my sharpening session, which I'm OK with. I at least have something that gives me repeatable results and removes a source of doubt about whether I got a good honing bevel. I'm sure if I stuck with freehand I would have gotten better with more practice, and I may try it again in the future. But I'm still working on the basics, so for now the Eclipse is what I'll use. Your mileage may (will) vary.

Mike Dowell

01-21-2016, 8:47 AM

See? That's why I love this community... I needed a shoulder to cry on and complain to and as of right now, I got 44 of them!

OK, so I'm going to put the MKII in the drawer for now. That much I got. So many of you made the argument that I already have what I need to do a fair job. I'm going to re-read over all of these comments tonight and see if I can't put something together. I'll be back!

Thanks!

Pat Barry

01-21-2016, 9:03 AM

OK, so I'm going to put the MKII in the drawer for now. That much I got. So many of you made the argument that I already have what I need to do a fair job. I'm going to re-read over all of these comments tonight and see if I can't put something together. I'll be back!
I don't have a Mk II honing jig 1) because I've been too miserly to spend the $ on one, 2) because it seems I can do a 'fair' job of honing by feel (no doubt gets easier with experience). That said, I know I would have saved myself untold hours of frustration trying to learn the manual approach which I'm barely still adequate with. If I had the jig I would use it now because it takes variation out of the process to a large degree and virtually guarantees a straight true edge for a wide range of sharpening tasks. I guess I don't have the feel that some of the well practiced folks do around here but that's OK with me

Andrew Pitonyak

01-21-2016, 9:29 AM

I'll start by saying I'm a rank beginner at this whole sharpening thing...

Very well said George, and I think you provided useful information.... reminding me of all the things that I tried when I was first starting. The Charlesworth video is certainly worth watching. I have not watched it in a long time, but I have watched it a couple of times. I think that it provided my first successes.

I did not move on to powered sharpening until I had to "fix up" a bunch of abused chisels. After spending a few hours with sandpaper on a chisel that needed major work, I drove to Woodcraft and purchased a powered something or other and fixed it up in a few minutes. Then, when it was in shape, I was able to use the standard methods to finish.

lowell holmes

01-21-2016, 9:48 AM

[QUOTE=george wilson;2519498]Someone said that "diamond stones are flat,don't let anyone tell you they aren't." Well,I'LL tell you that some of them AREN'T! At least,not flat enough to lap your block plane flat with!!:) They are certainly flat enough to sharpen your plane iron and chisels with.

I have a granite plate and wet or dry sandpaper that is flat enough. I saw it at Woodcraft and bought it. It's good for sharpening lots of things including jointer knives and flattening about anything.

Nick Stokes

01-21-2016, 11:09 AM

Patrick Chase

01-21-2016, 12:29 PM

I've noticed that my diamond plate has been losing some of its bite as well. But it's been going for a few years and still seems like it has a lot of life left in it. Good suggestion on the flattening stone. That looks like a good alternative once my diamond plate finally gives up.

Every diamond plate I've ever used has come with at least some particles that stick out further than the rest, and those fall out or fracture during "break in". There are some good SEM shots of the process here (https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/09/10/diamond-plate-break-in/) and here (https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/09/28/diamond-plate-break-in-part-2/) (note also the "rogue particles' in the DMT 1200 plate). What you describe is therefore normal and even desirable to a certain extent.

With that said, the DMTs (unfortunately including the DiaFlat) seem to be more prone than Atomas to shed diamonds during waterstone flattening. As I've said in another thread, I once stripped a coarse DiaFlat by using it to flatten a Sigma S-II #240. I wasn't applying all that much pressure at the time. Although I personally don't risk my Atoma #140 with stones that coarse, I know others who do and who don't report significant degradation of the stone.

David Bassett

01-21-2016, 12:39 PM

Everyone probably agrees that "level of sharpness" attainability is higher now than ever before in history right?

But, for centuries beautiful furniture was hand crafted... Why do we feel the need to chase the technology? Why do my chisels need to be sharper than my grandfathers? His work would kick my works tail in overall quality.

No, I can't agree we have a higher level of sharpness now.

I think several things have changed though and together they make things more confusing, especially for beginners. First we have global commerce and instead of adopting your regional solution and mastering it we have to choose between each region's tools & techniques. Next quarries are being mined out and the traditional stones are less available, leaving us with manufactured replacements to complicate our choices. Also new high tech steels that hold an edge longer have been invented and they are harder to sharpen requiring new techniques and materials to be developed to sharpen them. So we undoubtedly have more choices in sharpening, perhaps have to sharpen less, but no I can't imagine our tools are any sharper in use.

Patrick Chase

01-21-2016, 12:46 PM

Everyone probably agrees that "level of sharpness" attainability is higher now than ever before in history right?

But, for centuries beautiful furniture was hand crafted... Why do we feel the need to chase the technology? Why do my chisels need to be sharper than my grandfathers? His work would kick my works tail in overall quality.

We (woodworkers) are not at the leading edge or "chasing the technology". Not even close. If you want to see what that looks like then go read a straight-razor forum and learn all about 0.025 micron diamond and CBN sprays. 0.025 um is somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million grit (seriously).

Japanese natural polishing stones range up to the equivalent of #30000 or so, and well-broken-in fine Arkansas stones are well up into the thousands, so what we're doing these days isn't even exceptional by historical woodworking standards. Anything much above O(#10000) has marginal benefit for woodworking, which is why the level of target sharpness hasn't moved much in literally centuries.

The main things that have changed are speed/productivity and the fact that we can now achieve good edges on more difficult steels. Silicon Dioxide (the abrasive in natural stones) has a Knoop hardness of about 820 (~Rc 64) so anything much harder than that was a lost cause until the advent of synthetic abrasives. For comparison, the Chromium carbides in D2 come in at a Knoop hardness of ~1700.

george wilson

01-21-2016, 12:53 PM

Just a thought to those who can't seem to get their tools sharp: I trained many people in the museum,some in other shops too, to sharpen their tools. The Book Binders needed truly razor sharp tools for skiving leather. I noticed that many do not bear down hard enough on their stones. I do NOT mean to bear down on DIAMOND stones!! So,check out if you are really bearing down enough.

To those who are using SOFT stones,of course you cannot. I can,with my Spyderco ceramic stones. On stropping,strop progressively lighter as you go,to produce a sharper and sharper edge. Change the angle that you present the tool to the strop also. That helps wear down the microscopic "mountains" on the edges. I use a MDF piece with LV green compound. I hate the feel of it compared to a leather strop. But,it doesn't "give" and round the edge over like leather can. When I did use a leather strop,I always used it HAIR side out. Everyone else seems to use the SUEDE side out. But,I felt that the hair side offered a more compacted surface that did not round the edge of the tool. But,it was easy to make a false move and cut the hair side,hurting it. But,strops aren't hard to make.

P.S.: I keep my MDF strop where dust from the shop cannot land on it. I don't want anything but the green compound on it.

About stropping: I HATE it when I see some stupid actor in a movie stropping his knife(or honing it),holding the blade's edge VERTICAL to the stone or strop. What do those people think? I realize they aren't craftsmen,but isn't a little COMMON SENSE in order? Another thing is they invariably throw their canteens away when they are empty. Trekking across the desert. O.K.,what are they going to use to CARRY more water,should they find it?

Nick Stokes

01-21-2016, 12:54 PM

We (woodworkers) are not at the leading edge or "chasing the technology". Not even close. If you want to see what that looks like then go read a straight-razor forum and learn all about 0.025 micron diamond and CBN sprays. 0.025 um is somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million grit (seriously).

Japanese natural polishing stones range up to the equivalent of #30000 or so, and well-broken-in fine Arkansas stones are well up into the thousands, so what we're doing these days isn't even exceptional by historical woodworking standards. Anything much above O(#10000) has marginal benefit for woodworking, which is why the level of target sharpness hasn't moved much in literally centuries.

The main things that have changed are speed/productivity and the fact that we can now achieve good edges on more difficult steels. Silicon Dioxide (the abrasive in natural stones) has a Knoop hardness of about 820 (~Rc 64) so anything much harder than that was a lost cause until the advent of synthetic abrasives. For comparison, the Chromium carbides in D2 come in at a Knoop hardness of ~1700.

Gotcha. This makes sense to me.

Also David, great points that also make a lot of sense. Thanks.

Jack Clark

01-21-2016, 1:13 PM

roger wiegand

01-21-2016, 1:43 PM

First, noone is going to look at your finished product and be able to tell if you used a jig to sharpen your blades and chisels.

If that were true I wouldn't need to mess with jigs. If you look at my finished products it is, unfortunately, immediately obvious which is which. Despite decades of attempts my hand sharpened blades have about eight different bevels on them. I seem to be completely unable to hold an angle steady despite knowing perfectly well what I'm supposed to be doing.

Patrick Chase

01-21-2016, 1:53 PM

About stropping: I HATE it when I see some stupid actor in a movie stropping his knife(or honing it),holding the blade's edge VERTICAL to the stone or strop. What do those people think? I realize they aren't craftsmen,but isn't a little COMMON SENSE in order? Another thing is they invariably throw their canteens away when they are empty. Trekking across the desert. O.K.,what are they going to use to CARRY more water,should they find it?

For some reason when I read this my initial mental image was of one of Jerry Seinfeld's high-pitched rants in his standup act...

Next up: Why do teenage victims-to-be make appalling decisions in horror flicks? :-)

Jim Koepke

01-21-2016, 1:54 PM

Everyone probably agrees that "level of sharpness" attainability is higher now than ever before in history right?

If you ever tried shaving with a dull straight razor you would know they had to have a way of getting those sharp for our forefathers to go without facial hair.

The "secrets" of sharpening were likely held close to home among the tradesmen of old. It was a tactical advantage in a competitive world to have an edge on your competition.

Dave Weaver mention a jasper hone at one time. I bummed a piece of jasper from my wife's rock hoard. It is very hard and can put a mirror on steel.

It is imaginable in the past young craftsmen tried every rock they could find to see what it could do to steel.

jtk

Jim Koepke

01-21-2016, 1:57 PM

Another thing is they invariably throw their canteens away when they are empty. Trekking across the desert. O.K.,what are they going to use to CARRY more water,should they find it?

They will just pick up one of the other canteens the people who came before them tossed. :eek::D

Watching the movies, one would think the deserts are littered with old, but empty, canteens.

jtk

Chris Hachet

01-21-2016, 2:01 PM

If that were true I wouldn't need to mess with jigs. If you look at my finished products it is, unfortunately, immediately obvious which is which. Despite decades of attempts my hand sharpened blades have about eight different bevels on them. I seem to be completely unable to hold an angle steady despite knowing perfectly well what I'm supposed to be doing.

What works for some will not work for others. I usually find it helpful to use a honing guide. There is no shame in that....

Jim Koepke

01-21-2016, 2:07 PM

What works for some will not work for others. I usually find it helpful to use a honing guide. There is no shame in that....

+1 on this.

Even me, an advocate of free hand sharpening, will use a shop made honing guide to speed things up at times.

jtk

Joe Beaulieu

01-21-2016, 2:53 PM

Hey Mike,

Not to change your world too much, but you might want to watch the sharpening videos by Paul Sellers on Youtube. Just search Paul Sellers Sharpening. Watch the one on chisels and the one on plane blades. He gives incredible info, and he makes it a very quick process. Here is the kicker though. He sharpens at least several times a day, and sometimes much more. Its not a daily mindset, its a several times a day mindset. And he is not a tool junky - in fact if you watch his videos, he is all about spending as little money as possible. He has three diamond plates mounted on a sheet of ply. It sits on a shelf just below his workbench. He pulls this little sharpening station out, puts it in his vice, and uses a little glass cleaner for lube. He runs his chisels and blades freehand, although he is not averse to honing guides and in fact uses them in some situations. He sharpens on his coarse (250 grit), fine (600 grit) and extra fine (1200 grit) stones very quickly - maybe 10 passes on each. Then he strops. That is a very quick thing as well - 30 or so passes on the strop and he is done. The whole process takes only a couple of minutes. His chisels and planes are incredible to watch work - they do what he wants them to. Watch the videos, you will see what I mean.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I have been through many of the methods, I have a LapSharp system. King stones, Shapton stones, a grinder, and finally the diamond stones. The diamond stones appear to be the best, certainly the fastest.

Joe

Brian Holcombe

01-21-2016, 5:02 PM

Patrick Chase

01-21-2016, 5:56 PM

I would imagine the use of natural stones dates back pretty far. If you can imagine how many years of mining have already occurred and still natural stones of a quality that can produce an extremely fine edge are still available. As has been mentioned stones such as those from Nakayama quarry can be in the range of 30,000 grit, which is fine enough for Katanas, razors and well fine enough for woodworking tools (unnecessarily fine).

Indeed. Either Hock or Lee (can't remember which) claimed in his sharpening book that use of natural abrasives dates back to the start of the Iron Age, so that would be a bit over 3000 years.

IIRC Bronze tools/weapons were sharpened by hammering the edge to shape.

Pat Barry

01-21-2016, 6:04 PM

Indeed. Either Hock or Lee (can't remember which) claimed in his sharpening book that use of natural abrasives dates back to the start of the Iron Age, so that would be a bit over 3000 years.

IIRC Bronze tools/weapons were sharpened by hammering the edge to shape.
It would be pretty darn surprising if some caveman didn't sharpen his spear or what not on a craggy looking rock (maybe even in his workshop inside the cave)! LOL

Nicholas Lawrence

01-21-2016, 6:08 PM

It would be pretty darn surprising if some caveman didn't sharpen his spear or what not on a craggy looking rock (maybe even in his workshop inside the cave)! LOL

Stone Age weapons often generally relied on a fractured edge, rather than an abraded one.

Pat Barry

01-21-2016, 6:17 PM

Stone Age weapons often generally relied on a fractured edge, rather than an abraded one.
OK - You get the point. LOL

Nicholas Lawrence

01-21-2016, 6:55 PM

I knew a fellow once who made stone projectile points as a hobby. I'm not trying to start a fight. I just thought it was interesting that they did not grind the edges on another rock (which is what I probably would have tried). Instead it was a process of putting pressure on the edge, with the edge coming from the resulting fracture.

Lenore Epstein

01-21-2016, 7:23 PM

Hey, Mike! I'm a little ahead of you in the sharpening curve, so I thought I'd share my experiences, and reiterate what others have said that resonate with what I've been learning.

First, the best advice I've read in this whole thread:

Originally Posted by David Bassett:

Anyway, don't beat yourself up and just practice.

Pick an approach, a method, whatever, and practice enough that you start to see some improvement--and then practice some more. Don't try to synthesize elements of five different techniques you saw in five different videos--pick one and give it a go.

I've noticed that the frustration and fatigue of grinding away at an edge for a long time makes mistakes more likely--dubbing (blunting) an edge by accidentally lifting a handle for one stroke, putting more pressure on one side of a blade than the other because one hand gets tired, or just spacing out because I'm bored or frustrated. Better to take breaks, even if it's just to rinse and examine the blade to judge my progress, than to make mistakes.

Honing guide: I saw that you're leaning towards shelving your honing guide. Only you can decide how much of a purist you want to be, but I'm just not comfortable enough yet with tools and bevels to freehand things reliably. I figure there must be a reason that even expert woodworkers admit to using a honing guide at least occasionally, and say that it takes about the same amount of time once you know how to use your guide. Remember that the goal of sharpening is to get back to woodworking, so whatever gives me repeatable and fast results makes me happy. So I don't think you should feel like a moral failure if you decide to try a guide again.

Waterstone mess: Even splash-and-go stones like my Shaptons are messy when you're repairing blades or changing angles, but once everything is the way you want it, the mess from a short resharpening/polishing session uses only your finest one or two stones, which only need flattening every once in a while. And the 12x18x1.5 box I slapped together from plywood and cheap 1x2's contains the water and slurry without having been waterproofed. Once everything dries off the box lives on a shelf with a microfiber cloth laid on top to keep dust off, so setting up consists of putting the box on some rubber shelf liner to keep it from sliding around on my bench and grabbing a few clean rags. Done and done.

Water supply: That 16oz spray bottle and a 2 1/2 gallon bucket from the Borg. I'm on a sewer system, so every once in a while I bring the bucket into the kitchen, fill it to the brim, stir up the sludge, and slowly pour it down the sink with the faucet turned on all the way so it won't clog the pipes. I wouldn't do this if I had a septic tank, though.

Flattening stones: I use iWood 140 and an Atoma 400 diamond plates I got from Tools From Japan (the 140 for a King Deluxe 300 used for material removal, and the 400 for the affordable 1000, 5000 & 8000 Shapton/Kuromaku stones I got on Amazon). They're very flat, but even a slightly out-of-flat DMT will get stones flat enough. I flatten frequently, so it takes maybe 15 seconds to remove my pencil scribbles, and finer stones don't need to be done that often because they wear slowly.

Grinding: a grinder is out of the question for me because my workshop is my apartment's living room, so I've settled on The Schwarz's 80 and 120 grit ceramic/alumina sanding belts stuck to a piece of miraculously dead-flat limestone I bought at Habitat for Humanity for $1 (using a LIGHT layer of spray adhesive on the belt, not the stone; alcohol softens the adhesive enough to take off with a razor blade or paper shop towel). Flattening and bevel re-setting takes less than 5 minutes on the 80 grit, and the 120 grit removes the 80 grit scratch pattern, letting me go right from the 120 grit paper to the Shapton/Kuromaku 1000. And so far the ceramic/alumina belts show almost no wear, nothing like the wet/dry paper I tried at first.

Good luck, and feel free to come back and vent some more--as you can tell, it's a common theme around here!

Jim Koepke

01-21-2016, 8:05 PM

Instead it was a process of putting pressure on the edge, with the edge coming from the resulting fracture.

The process is called knapping. It can produce an extremely sharp edge.

The damaged edge on a scythe is peened to move some metal into a nick from hitting a rock.

jtk

Pete Staehling

01-22-2016, 11:02 AM

Stone Age weapons often generally relied on a fractured edge, rather than an abraded one.
BTW, extremely sharp edges can be made in something like obsidian that way, but they are hard to use in your planes :)

Mike Dowell

01-24-2016, 8:14 PM

I think we managed to scare off a sharpening newby once again. Mike hasn't replied yet, probably because he is hiding somewhere. :D

That's funny - I mean I was really laughing at that. I'm not hiding. Actually, we got nailed here in MD with over 2' of snow, and to some of you that is probably small time, but it's pretty big in MD. So, we had a huge dig out. Actually, I've been trying to read through all these responses. I never thought this thread would get this much action! Either you all feel bad for me, or this is a ridiculously popular topic - I'll happily take it either way. I don't have much free time, being a family man, and also business owner(or does the business own me? sometimes it's hard to tell the difference). I'm here though. Please, please don't think I ran off! Sometimes I just take a while to do things. I haven't even written my Christmas thank you notes yet - not even to my sister who gave me a $200 gift card to Lee Valley!!!!!

OK. The wife wants to watch TV. I guess after shoveling what I did, I can justify that.

Here's a pic of the house across my court.

http://i.imgur.com/kdzuPQ8.jpg

lowell holmes

01-24-2016, 9:32 PM

If operating a bench grinder is out of your experience range, I have an alternative.

I have a variable speed bench grinder with white wheels. It will do a good job with careful use.

However, if I want to square up a chisel or plane iron, I might put a 120 grit belt on my belt sander, turn the sander upside down, clamp it in a vice. I will carefully sharpen a plane iron or chisel on it. Wear eye protection and leather gloves. I find that I can carefully reshape irons or chisels this way. Finish up with stones or scary sharp methods. Be careful and don't burn the steel. You can use a LV honing guide if you so desire.

My normal sharpening (no shaping) is done on a diamond plate and strop on mdf charged with honing compound.

Kees Heiden

01-25-2016, 3:24 AM

Wow, that's some snow shoveling! Overhere in The Netherlands snow is a rare occurence these days. Rain is our usual diaet.

A grinder is very very very usefull. My whole sharpening regime is in essence centered around the grinder. It keeps the work on the stones to a reasonable level. I use a high speed 6" dry grinder, a cheappy, but I invested in a Nortn 3X 46 grit stone and one of these diamond stone dressers. Keep a light touch when grinding, avoid grinding to a wire edge (that's the job of the honing stones) and keep a pail of water at hand to cool the steel. That way I never burn an iron.

Jerry Olexa

01-27-2016, 2:42 PM

That is an excellent and simple video.....Agree

Hey Mike,

Not to change your world too much, but you might want to watch the sharpening videos by Paul Sellers on Youtube. Just search Paul Sellers Sharpening. Watch the one on chisels and the one on plane blades. He gives incredible info, and he makes it a very quick process. Here is the kicker though. He sharpens at least several times a day, and sometimes much more. Its not a daily mindset, its a several times a day mindset. And he is not a tool junky - in fact if you watch his videos, he is all about spending as little money as possible. He has three diamond plates mounted on a sheet of ply. It sits on a shelf just below his workbench. He pulls this little sharpening station out, puts it in his vice, and uses a little glass cleaner for lube. He runs his chisels and blades freehand, although he is not averse to honing guides and in fact uses them in some situations. He sharpens on his coarse (250 grit), fine (600 grit) and extra fine (1200 grit) stones very quickly - maybe 10 passes on each. Then he strops. That is a very quick thing as well - 30 or so passes on the strop and he is done. The whole process takes only a couple of minutes. His chisels and planes are incredible to watch work - they do what he wants them to. Watch the videos, you will see what I mean.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I have been through many of the methods, I have a LapSharp system. King stones, Shapton stones, a grinder, and finally the diamond stones. The diamond stones appear to be the best, certainly the fastest.

Joe

lowell holmes

01-27-2016, 4:09 PM

I learned to sharpen tools in Paul Sellers classes at Elm Mott Texas (near Waco).
His system is simple and it works. That's where I saw my first diamond stone.
He has leather on wood for a strop. It was charged with honing compound.

Matthew Springer

01-27-2016, 6:08 PM

My own $0.02
I historically sucked at sharpening and kept chasing more and better stones thinking it was the gear. Also being a computer engineer, I have more money than sense. Also I wasn't married, so managed to acquire a tormek, a duosharp, a bunch of loose DMT stones before that, a trio of shaptons, a trio of nortons, flattening plates for the nortons, strops and one of every honing guide made including the two from Veritas and the Kell. Oh and a surface plate and some PSA sandpaper packs.

It's not the gear.

In retrospect, I did a couple things that made me suck:

For the backs I was trying to flatten the entire back, not just the bit up near the tip. Don't do this. And I wasn't sticking at it until the scratches actually were even up to the very tip of the blade. I'd get tired, look at the nice even scratch pattern over the rest of the blade back that _wasn't_ near the tip and stop thinking I'd totally flattened the back. The scratches need to go all the way to the tip. You can spend a ridiculous amount of time initially getting things the various backs flat, but after that it shouldn't be too bad.

Side note: For my two cherries/new blades, I also didn't actually remove the gunk that comes on them with mineral spirits, just ground it off, which of course gums up your stone. Don't do this.

For the bevel it seemed obvious I could sharpen it freehand since it's already got a nice plane angle to it. Besides I couldn't get the jigs on there repeatably and squarely. But it turns out I can't. Especially if you're going to be removing any amount of actual material you really really need to stay consistent. I sure can't without the jig. Sometimes not with the jig. It's one of those things like sword fighting or surfing than since i'm a man, I thought I would naturally be awesome at. Not so much, i use the jig.

What works for me:
I've found that for removing material off the back, I like the surface plate + 45u PSA sandpaper. I stick it on, run through EVERYTHING handy then go on to the next grit. I no longer use the Charlesworth/Schwartz ruler trick since I've found you need to remember to keep using it, which I never can. Once I get the back flat, I skip the diamond plate and head straight to the 1k shapton. Note that since you don't use a jig for the back, I run through everything I want to sharpen at a single grit size, then switch grits.

For the bevels, I go jig + angle gauge (using the LV2 mostly) onto the coarse DMT duosharp that I've had for a while -> shaptons. Then I use the fine side of the duosharp to reflatten the shaptons every other tool or so. Doesn't take much flattening but does make a huge mess. On subsequent sharpening the main thing is to keep getting steeper by a degree or two per pass so you're only attacking the very edge, then re-establish the bevel once you need to. Note that the technique here is the opposite since I use a jig. Get one tool through all the grits so you don't have to switch the jigs.

I find sharpening is mostly a "when you need it" thing. It's a PITA to get the blade out of the planes so those end up duller than the chisels. I will say learning to sharpen a very shallow curve consistently on the plane iron is AWESOME. These things work so much better with slight curves.

I can confirm what one poster here said, my DMT isn't so much un-flat as it is bumpy. It's got rogue grits that stick up and make deep scratches even after prolonged heavy use, but it's still pretty good for making things flattish afaict. I use it for redoing the initial bevel after 3-4 resharpenings and flattening the watestones. Which does make a mess.

If you do buy a DMT, get the 10x4 over the 11.5" x 2.5" I find I miss the extra width way more than I use the extra length. I don't know that I'd spend the extra 100$ to get the x-course over the just-plain course but I have a grinder if I really need to get something back to rough shape. For flatteing the waterstones, I just need it harder than the stones. Rinsing of the plate frequently actually speeds the cutting the most.

Brian Ashton

01-29-2016, 4:21 AM

I only had a look at all the responses and im betting youre more confused than before

Brian N Hall

02-02-2016, 1:00 AM

I've tried them all except a grinding wheel...Diamonds, waterstones, shapton ceramics, and arkansas stones. Here's my take:

They all work...pick a system and just do it. The process is the same regardless of the which stones you use. I started with waterstones. They work great, but they're messy and need to be flattened frequently. I added Shapton stones in 1200 and 8000 grit ceramics and that was an improvement...they stayed flat much longer and only needed a spritz of water to keep them cutting well. I still used a coarse waterstone to restore the initial bevel angle, but that stone wore faster than the other grits and I got tired of constantly flattening it.

Then I bought a DMT duosharp to use for flattening my waterstones and decided it worked better for establishing the initial bevel. Then I decided to try a 3-stone setup of the DMT Dia-sharp stones that Paul Sellers uses. They're pretty inexpensive for diamond stones and they cut better than the waterstones, stay flat, and you can use them dry, with water, or oil (I use window cleaner). The extra fine puts a good edge on, but It's not honed to a mirror finish. I could have just touched it up with my 8000 Shapton, but I came across a Black Arkansas stone cheap and decided to give it a try...it works great and since it uses honing oil, the blade gets a light coating of oil to prevent rust as the final step in the process...and it stays flat.

Sooo, my current system uses 3 DMT Dia-sharp stones (extra coarse, fine, and extra fine) and finishes with a final honing on a Black Arkansas stone. I have them setup at a "sharpening station" next to the bench and I can sharpen an edge in less than 5 minutes, and touch up an edge in less than two minutes. Knowing what I know now, I'd skip the waterstones entirely...the diamond stones cut better, stay flat, and are more versatile. They do "wear-in" a little and become slightly less aggressive once they're broken in, but have great tactile feedback if you enjoy freehand sharpening. It's great to see quality diamond stones at such reasonable prices.

Jim Koepke

02-02-2016, 1:13 AM

Howdy Brian and welcome to the Creek.

Thanks for a well elucidated reasoning on your choice of sharpening media.

Yes, they do all work. The tricky part is finding what works best for ones needs. The OP mention a few chisels and a few plane irons. When one advances to gouges, garden tools and a few other items the choice gets more involved.

I am alway curious as to where people call home, what part of this planet do you call home?

jtk

Brian N Hall

02-02-2016, 2:25 AM

Thanks. I currently reside in the Great Pacific Northwest...Vancouver, WA. I grew up in New Hampshire and transferred to the west coast to open a new office for the company I worked for back in 1995. This area offers everything I loved about New England, without the snow in the winter (you don't have to shovel rain) or the insects (black flies and mosquitos) in the summer. I can literally golf in the morning and ski in the afternoon...year-round. I'm an hour from Mt. Hood, an hour and a half from Mt. St. Helens or the coast, and about 20 minutes from the Columbia River Gorge. It's an outdoorsman's paradise.

I have a 20' X 40' free-standing shop at my home on 5 acres with all the power tools, an unfinished dust collection system, and a growing number of hand tools (I may just sell the dust collector...it's just collecting dust). I've discovered the joy of using hand tools and other than ripping or planing, my power tools stay under dust covers or in their cases. Lately, I've been building a collection of moulding planes and have already sold or given away about half of my router bits as a result. I have an autistic son and he is starting to show an interest in what Dad does in his shop. Right now we're starting to build the bookcase from the recently released David Schwarz DVD for his bedroom, and he and I cut all the rough lumber to size today. I have a 22" Disston D8 crosscut saw I just restored and it fits him perfectly.

Well that's enough ranting for now...thanks for the warm reception.