Water based poly over latex?

[Randy Denby]

I am in the process of painting bedside tables , I built for a girls room ,using white latex semi-gloss paint. I am using a brush to apply, since I dont have a tip big enough to spray latex. I used flotroel to help in leveling the paint and will sand flat when dry. Afterwards, I would like to spray on waterbased poly to help in protection of the tables. I am afraid of incompatability though.Latex paint will be kinda soft for quit awhile after application(sometimes weeks), while waterbased poly dries almost instantly. Has anyone successfully done this ? Is there a better way? Thanks, Randy

[Jim Becker]

You can do it, but you would be better served by using flat paint...it's not a thick or soft as you'll have with the semi-gloss. I actually did exactly this last weekend for my wall-hung bookshelf project (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=216195&postcount=18) for our soon-to-be-adoptive daughters' room. I did not have time to order the water bourne acrylic finish I would normally use for this kind of project, so used custom tinted latex flat paint from the 'borg and Minwax Polycrylic to top coat for sheen and "protection". The Polycrylic is merely a clear acrylic product with polyurethane resins added to it.

Using satin, semigloss or gloss latex paint on a table or bookshelves is inviting interesting "sticky" situations...as my best friend just found out when she painted a nice chest to use as a coffee table. Despite advise to use a different product, she went with the 'borg recommendation and yesterday, a magazine stuck to the table.

But to your original question, you will not have a "compatibility" issue with putting a water-based polyurethane product over your paint. But as you surmise, the tendancy of latex paint to stay soft for a very long time...sometimes "indefinately"...could be a challenge.

[Randy Denby]

Thanks for the info Jim. I shoud've ask first, huh. I have 2 coats of semi-gloss on now....dangit. :o I'll sand them down tonight and see if that will help dry them out more. Might have to strip them now. What is the paint you didnt have time to order? I would love to find paint that would be compatible with my gun (Apollo conversion), thats not automotive. (expensive) Thanks again! Randy

[Jim Becker]

Randy, I use Target Coatings USL (which can be clear or tinted any color of the rainbow at this point) and Fuhr International 9100, which can also be tinted similarly. You can buy Target direct or both are available from Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing. (Jeff is the noted author about finishing) Jeff (or similar third parties) may be the better source if you want tinting...I had him do the 9100 for my kitchen project in 2003 and he was bang-on to match the color chips that matched our plans.

[Michael Ballent]

Jim, could milk paint used in this application as well? Just curious :D

[Jim Becker]

Jim, could milk paint used in this application as well? Just curious

Yes, although traditionally, milk paint is often "top coated" with BLO... No harm in using varnish...but, since the milk paint is water based, it may be best to spray the top coating. I'm not sure if milk paint will re-disolve or not...I've only ever used it once and it was a long time ago.

[Michael Ballent]

Cool thanks for the answer... I have seen articles on using milk paint in FWW so I was not sure if it would apply to this application.

[Phil Phelps]

"Despite advise to use a different product, she went with the 'borg recommendation and yesterday, a magazine stuck to the table.", Mr. Becker

I never recommend latex enamel on any woodwork inside the house, period. Brush strokes never level. Heaven forbid you try to paint a slab door or cabinets :eek: I don't care how much Floetrol you use. And, it never dries hard enough. I'd use a clear coat over latex anytime you intend to use what you are finishing.

[Jason Roehl]

Still refusing to catch up with the times, eh, Phil? :D We've found a waterborne product (latex would be inaccurate here) that pretty much acts like an oil enamel except that it doesn't yellow. It flows/levels very well, dries hard quickly (sandable like an oil enamel in a day or so), is very durable, but is in a water clean-up vehicle. I sprayed about 75 doors and a couple thousand feet of trim with it this summer (two houses, average price of ~$750k), and all who saw it were pretty impressed.

The product? Sherwin-Williams' Pro-Classic Waterborne Enamel. It does say on the label that it contains some Mineral Spirits, though! Go figure.

While I'm sure a clear coat over paint can work, I don't see any real reason for it, unless you're going for that look--the extra depth you can get that way. Waterborne products have come a long way, baby!

[Gail O'Rourke]

A quick note....a nice clear coat water based that I have been using is called Ceramathane and I buy it Factory Paint (chain near here, it is a Murallo product). It is nice and works well over paint. Expensive, but worth it.

[Jim Becker]

Phil, I do think there is a lot of merit to using oil based paints for trim work, but it's unrealistic these days to expect the non-pro to accept that in most cases, both for availablity reasons (they all shop at the 'borg) and because of the smell and clean-up. And as Jason points out (he's a pro painter...), there are products available today that are water bourne that have some awesome properties. (I'm going to have to check out that SW product he mentions)

I tried really hard to get my friend to go to SW or some other "real" paint store and get an oil-based product to paint her chest. (Furniture!!) It didn't happen and what I told her would happen with the latex she actually bought did happen...stuff sticks. (A real happin'in' thing going on here... ;) )

[Steve Schoene]

Just a note--milk paint can be top coated with a waterborne product without redissolving. Unprotected it may waterspot, but ends up being very durable. Ordinary solvents and even methylene chloride stripper do not cut it after it has been well cured, for example.

[Phil Phelps]

"I sprayed about 75 doors and a couple thousand feet of trim with it this summer (two houses, average price of ~$750k), and all who saw it were pretty impressed." Jason Roehl

I love documentation. You sprayed them, ol' buddy. Any paint sprayed has a better look than brushing. My point has always been that oil enamel is far more durable than latex enamel. And, when you brush it on, there is no comparison. Oil levels out far better than latex when brushed. Few are willing to mask off their entire home to spray paint. For non yellowing, mainly with whites, latex is way out in front. But the average guy who will brush his base boards, door jambs, doors, and holy smokes, louvered doors and shutters, is better off with alkyd enamel. Exterior work is a completely different ball game.

[Jim Becker]

Just a note--milk paint can be top coated with a waterborne product without redissolving.

Thanks, Steve! I wasn't sure about that!

[Phil Phelps]

Phil, I do think there is a lot of merit to using oil based paints for trim work, but it's unrealistic these days to expect the non-pro to accept that in most cases, both for availablity reasons (they all shop at the 'borg) and because of the smell and clean-up. And as Jason points out (he's a pro painter...), there are products available today that are water bourne that have some awesome properties. (I'm going to have to check out that SW product he mentions)

I tried really hard to get my friend to go to SW or some other "real" paint store and get an oil-based product to paint her chest. (Furniture!!) It didn't happen and what I told her would happen with the latex she actually bought did happen...stuff sticks. (A real happin'in' thing going on here... ;) )
Jim, most folks shop for convenience. In my opinion, the borg carries a low line of paints. And, most want something fast and products that will dry fast. Fast doesn't translate to quality. I respect Jason's reasons for using latex. We have had this discussion years ago. Mostly, we are talking application here. Spraying or brushing. Most don't have an airless rig. If you're brushing woodwork, forget the latex enamel. Your results won't be as good as an alkyd enamel. I continually look for a better products or a better way because I use many kinds of paints in my 39 years in the exhibit business. I'll stay with alkyd for interior woodwork. Chemists have come a long way improving latex enamel, but they aren't there yet to suit my quality of work. And chemists have done a better job in toning down the odor of alkyd products.

[Jim Becker]

Phil, we are not in disagreement in the least. What you or I might use is predicated by the fact that we are more "educated consumers". What I was pointing out was that the vast majority are not and use whatever the store gives them...the paint counter where most folks shop doesn't even ask if you want oil based or latex anymore. They don't carry oil based, so why ask? ;)

[Phil Phelps]

Phil, we are not in disagreement in the least. What you or I might use is predicated by the fact that we are more "educated consumers". What I was pointing out was that the vast majority are not and use whatever the store gives them...the paint counter where most folks shop doesn't even ask if you want oil based or latex anymore. They don't carry oil based, so why ask? ;)
And, hopefully, that's why this board is so important....education. That's why I'm here. To learn and pass on techniques that work.

[Jason Roehl]

Phil,

True, I did spray out the doors and trim with this particular product this time, but I have also brushed it before, and that is why I suggested it. It basically has all the working and durability properties of an oil or alkyd enamel, but with waterborne dry time and oil cure time (that's why it's sandable the next day). Part of the trick is to brush on a "risky" coat, which really is true for any latex or acrylic product. Thin coats will dry before they level and leave awful brush marks. Most waterborne paints will level fine if you put on a heavy coat (borderline running, so you have to know or test the paint you're using), and don't overbrush. I still see plenty of pro painters working latex like they were using an oil. Get it on, spread it to where you want it, tip it off, then leave it alone. Brushing mainly in one direction helps a lot, too.

You do it your way, and I'll do it the right way! :p :D :cool: ;)

[Phil Phelps]

"You do it your way, and I'll do it the right way!" Jason R

Cute, but here is the main question. Can you use the product you are suggesting and, have equal or better results than alkyd enamel on a slab door, using a brush? Even on a hot summer day? Sober, standing on your head using your feet :eek: :D
:eek:

[Randy Denby]

"Can you use the product you are suggesting and, have equal or better results than alkyd enamel on a slab door, using a brush? Even on a hot summer day? Sober, standing on your head using your feet "


nyuk nyuk....Thats some good paint! But a terrible mental image! Especially the sober part :D
Phil, do you ever see or hear from Uncle Mike Tubbs anymore? Or has he jumped off into fishing full time? Randy

[Phil Phelps]

"Can you use the product you are suggesting and, have equal or better results than alkyd enamel on a slab door, using a brush? Even on a hot summer day? Sober, standing on your head using your feet "


nyuk nyuk....Thats some good paint! But a terrible mental image! Especially the sober part :D
Phil, do you ever see or hear from Uncle Mike Tubbs anymore? Or has he jumped off into fishing full time? Randy
I have spoken to Uncle Tubby on several occasions. He's still in the lumber business and still runs his shop "out back". I'm thinkin' the fishin' part has the best of him, if not the suds ;)

[Jason Roehl]

Cute, but here is the main question. Can you use the product you are suggesting and, have equal or better results than alkyd enamel on a slab door, using a brush? Even on a hot summer day? Sober, standing on your head using your feet :eek: :D
:eek:

The most difficult part of that proposition would be finding a sober painter on a hot summer day... :D