Outboard capability for new turner

[Lorne Collicutt]

I'm looking at buying my first lathe and know next to nothing about turning. I'm hoping you guys can give me some guidance. I'm in Canada and we don't seem to have very good access to some popular brands like Jet and Delta.

Our local Lee Valley carries the Rikon 70-220VSR and it looks like a reasonable first lathe but the headstock doesn't swivel so you can't do outboard turning. The other option is a General International 25-200 which can do outboard turning. My question is: how important is outboard turning capability and is a small lathe likely to do it well enough to bother with it? I realize that question probably depends on what I would be turning but I'm not really sure at this point never having done it. From watching youtube bowls and vases look interesting and I'd certainly like to try those.

[Bob Mezzatesta]

What part of Canada? My best advice is to find a woodturning club and join. They most often offer basic courses and/or mentoring. You will find the members eager to help you get started. You will experience different lathes, tools, spindles and bowls. It will pay for itself very quickly by avoiding bad purchases. It will also teach you how to keep safe. As the saying goes "you can't know what you don't know"
Cheers and good luck.

[John Keeton]

Bob has given good advice, and I would add this. Outboard turning is usually done to exceed the swing capacity of the lathe. Having a pivoting headstock is one way, along with turning off the end of the lathe with some sort of toolrest arrangement. There are also lathes that permit turning off the hand wheel side of the headstock. But, the lathe must have sufficient power to support the increased capacity or you risk injury and/or damage to the lathe.

In the end, it is as you said - what do you intend to turn?

[Dan Masshardt]

My thought is that those lathes are too small to give any worry to outboard turning.

You should either have fun turning within their capacity and upgrade later or buy a bigger lathe to start with.

Others may disagree...

[Lorne Collicutt]

Thanks. Yes I'm looking into local clubs. You can only learn so much on youtube.

Any thoughts or experiences with the Rikon vs the General?

[Prashun Patel]

Outboard turning is for large work. Large work requires a large motor and a lot of mass to counter the weight of the cantilevered blank hanging off the outboard side.

It's IMHO not appropriate for a 1hp lathe (I have one). You can turn a lot of things with a 12" lathe (12" bowls are quite substantial). I think it's a great size to start with.

Outboard turning is a niche segment and it'd be a shame for you to spend several $$$$ on one just to find out it's not your bag.

I am certain joining a club is the best advice. I never did - just couldn't find the time - and just jumped into a midi lathe. My experience has been that my midi has served well for creating bowls, some toys for my kids, and chair/table legs. If you want to make legs for furniture, then you may want to get a lathe with an extension. But, that can be purchased later if you want to dip your toes in.

Also, be warned that the lathe is probable 1/3-1/2 of your overall expense. Count on spending roughly the same amount on sharpening and tools and wood.

[Justin Stephen]

Thanks. Yes I'm looking into local clubs. You can only learn so much on youtube.

Any thoughts or experiences with the Rikon vs the General?

I don't know anyone who owns the General lathe nor have I ever seen one. I will say that it seems rather (or very) overpriced and gimmicky for what is in essence a midi lathe. It has the one added feature of a reversible headstock and the ability to turn 19" outboard, but its motor is also small (only 3/4 hp) for a lathe of that size, something that would be exacerbated if you tried to turn anything heavy outboard. A larger platter blank using dry wood would probably be ok.

I would recommend either the Rikon or the Delta 46-460. Both are a little cheaper, give you an additional 1/2" of swing over the ways, have a larger 1 hp motor, and can also rotate 50 rpm slower on the low end. The Delta in particular is a proven performer that many people here own or have owned. It did have some rather notorious power switch issues (I had the problem as well with mine) but I am hopeful that this has been addressed with newer models. The Rikon is a newer lathe that I have not personally used but it seems to get good reviews and Rikon, in general, makes good stuff.

[Robert Henrickson]

Looking into local clubs, and perhaps visiting local turners met through a club, ought to give you some ideas as to what you might be interested in. You have to start somewhere. That said, most of the things I took classes on when I began, I no longer turn (e.g., lidded boxes) or seldom (bowls). After I had the basic skills, I followed ideas that interested me. I never had a lesson on spindle turning, but that is what I have done most in the last year or two.

Outboard turning -- with the larger mass being worked -- not only requires power but enough mass to sustain (relative) stability. It is better to learn the basics of turning before thinking about doing oversize turning, which presents greater problems (and potential dangers).

[Lorne Collicutt]

Thanks. I wasn't thinking of heading directly into turning large items outboard but I didn't want to limit myself down the road if that's where the journey took me. Sounds like that capability is of more use on a heavier duty lathe. General is a Canadian brand out of Quebec. I've read good things about that Delta and that's what I would go with if I could get it but my local tool shop says that Delta has stopped selling in Canada so getting their tools or parts later is hard. I may have to go with the Rikon.

[Robert Willing]

Since you are from Canada look here http://www.general.ca/products/1_general/25_lathe/25-200.html I had the 114 version. The hp may be a little light for boring, but you have enough belt selections to get the torque you need. the 114 I had had issues with the variable speed but they rectified the problem. I no longer have the lathe since I have now had my 2nd upgrade in lathes. The General Int. lathes are good lathes so don't undersell your home brews.

[ron david]

Thanks. I wasn't thinking of heading directly into turning large items outboard but I didn't want to limit myself down the road if that's where the journey took me. Sounds like that capability is of more use on a heavier duty lathe. General is a Canadian brand out of Quebec. I've read good things about that Delta and that's what I would go with if I could get it but my local tool shop says that Delta has stopped selling in Canada so getting their tools or parts later is hard. I may have to go with the Rikon.
where abouts are you?
ron

[Justin Stephen]

Since you are from Canada look here http://www.general.ca/products/1_general/25_lathe/25-200.html I had the 114 version. The hp may be a little light for boring, but you have enough belt selections to get the torque you need. the 114 I had had issues with the variable speed but they rectified the problem. I no longer have the lathe since I have now had my 2nd upgrade in lathes. The General Int. lathes are good lathes so don't undersell your home brews.

I will say that having reviewed the specs for both (and assuming equal quality), I tend to agree. I'd rather own the 114 than the 25-200 first mentioned.

[John K Jordan]

Large work requires a large motor and a lot of mass to counter the weight of the cantilevered blank

I certainly agree with this and with the advice of others. A big, strong lathe is best for big things, the bigger and stronger the better!

But where there is a will there is a way. A close friend of mine turned a bunch of 16"+ bowls outboard on a small Delta lathe maybe 30 years ago. There was no way the lathe could handle the blanks without walking all over the shop and destroying itself and probably hurting him. His solution: pipe clamps to fasten the lathe to the wall of his little garage. He made himself a free-standing tool rest from some pipe and a truck wheel, and made his own turning tools. The bowls he kept are incredible.

You would think the mass and imbalance of a large blank would at least destroy the bearings in the lathe. But the same lathe is still working fine decades later.

BTW, this guy is over 60 and still has more energy than most people have at 25. He made furniture with hand tools and still makes the largest raku fired pots in the world. He also has about 15 patents to his name. I feel a little soft and lazy when I hang out with him.

I'm not saying anyone else should even try what he did, especially if other options are available. But it is possible.

JKJ

[Lorne Collicutt]

I'm on Vancouver Island (BC)

[Lorne Collicutt]

is it a safe assumption that you would rather have the 114 because of its larger motor and swing? Or did I miss something?

[Justin Stephen]

is it a safe assumption that you would rather have the 114 because of its larger motor and swing? Or did I miss something?

Larger motor, 2" of extra swing and a lower bottom speed to boot. It's also cheaper, at least in the U.S. That said, the only advantage this has in basic specs over the Delta or Rikon is 1 1/2" of swing. This extra swing will cost you about $200 USD. For me, it might have been worth it, but I'd want to read every review of the 25-114 I could find just to make sure. From the couple I glanced at, people seemed happy with it.

That extra swing may very well be enough to delay what ends up being an inevitability for many of us, buying a larger lathe down the road. But hardly everyone does.

[ron david]

I'm on Vancouver Island (BC)
that is still pretty vague
ron

[Geoff Whaling]

Lorne,
The Rikon is a Woodfast in Aust and the Rikon 70-220VSR equivalent is a very popular small/midi late BUT we have 240v versions which may perform differently to the 110v models. They are a quite capable lathe for their class however turning bowls to their max capacity requires some finesse - not heavy handed cuts.

I would recommend attending a local wood turning club to get at least some of the basics on tool skills & safety. It will also give you the opportunity to experience turning a range of projects first hand so that you get an appreciation of what you want in a lathe and what sort of projects you prefer to do. The Rikon 70-220VSR can do a lot, bowls up to 8", pens, bottle stoppers, lidded boxes etc. However if bigger bowls & platters take your fancy look for a larger lathe, not trying to turn outboard on a small lathe.

FWIW we still own a Nova Mercury which is about the same capacity as the Rikon 70-220VSR it also has OB turning accessories. We used the OB quite a bit and the 220v 0.5hp motor could handle it IF you took your time and took lighter cuts. Big power is not all its cracked up to be, it is not essential, in fact not having raw power forces a turner to learn tool control. For decades all turners had available were a 1 hp lathes unless they custom made a lathe or modified one.

[Lorne Collicutt]

I'm in Nanaimo

[Olaf Vogel]

I don't know anyone who owns the General lathe nor have I ever seen one. I will say that it seems rather (or very) overpriced and gimmicky for what is in essence a midi lathe. It has the one added feature of a reversible headstock and the ability to turn 19" outboard, but its motor is also small (only 3/4 hp) for a lathe of that size, something that would be exacerbated if you tried to turn anything heavy outboard. A larger platter blank using dry wood would probably be ok.


I learned on a General, about 30 years ago, in high school. And have used quite a few Generals since, again in High schools.
The schools must have had a good contract to support Canadian industry. Basically all schools, municipal and provincial shops were General. And they're being sold off now.

And as much as I'd like to support our industry, I have to say, I've been consistently unimpressed.

1 - the design hasn't changed in decades. There's been almost no R&D. Thats ok if the original design was great - its not.
2 - VERY pricey for what you get.

Basically, they're OK quality, mediocre design, very expensive.
Canada did make some great lathes (back around 1880 - 1940) and I use one of those old ones.

Oneway still makes great lathes. I have used those a few times and always been impressed.
They will cost a lot more that the Rikon and are worth it.

BTW - many of the old Delta / Rockwell come up for sale on Kijiji. You can get them for a steal. A good way to go if you are starting out.
Minimize your investment, see if you like this, then upgrade. you'll be able to sell the old Delta for about the same price you bought it. They're fully depreciated at this point! :)

If you really want to pay >$1000 for a General, then check Kijiji, there's a Wadkin listed right now in Kitchener, for $1200. That would be a massive upgrade from either of the above.
(and no, I'm not associated with the seller, just drooling over the pics. But crap, I don't have any more room in the shop...)

And for a first lathe, I'd skip the outboard turning until you get a better feel for the hobby and what you want to do. The Wadkin has outboard. hint, hint...
:)

[ron david]

also "used victoria" and craigslist.
I am going to send you a PM
ron

[Olaf Vogel]

I learned on a General, about 30 years ago, in high school. And have used quite a few Generals since, again in High schools.
The schools must have had a good contract to support Canadian industry. Basically all schools, municipal and provincial shops were General. And they're being sold off now.

And as much as I'd like to support our industry, I have to say, I've been consistently unimpressed.

1 - the design hasn't changed in decades. There's been almost no R&D. Thats ok if the original design was great - its not.
2 - VERY pricey for what you get.

Basically, they're OK quality, mediocre design, very expensive.
Canada did make some great lathes (back around 1880 - 1940) and I use one of those old ones.

Oneway still makes great lathes. I have used those a few times and always been impressed.
They will cost a lot more that the Rikon and are worth it.

BTW - many of the old Delta / Rockwell come up for sale on Kijiji. You can get them for a steal. A good way to go if you are starting out.
Minimize your investment, see if you like this, then upgrade. you'll be able to sell the old Delta for about the same price you bought it. They're fully depreciated at this point! :)

If you really want to pay >$1000 for a General, then check Kijiji, there's a Wadkin listed right now in Kitchener, for $1200. That would be a massive upgrade from either of the above.
(and no, I'm not associated with the seller, just drooling over the pics. But crap, I don't have any more room in the shop...)

And for a first lathe, I'd skip the outboard turning until you get a better feel for the hobby and what you want to do. The Wadkin has outboard. hint, hint...
:)

[Lorne Collicutt]

thanks. I have been checking for used lathes on various sites but I'm not seeing much of interest locally so far. I'm afraid it might be a bit expensive to get a heavy lathe from Ontario to BC.

[Robert Willing]

I originally said the 25-200 because outboard turning was a requirement. Yes the 114 has more swing, and hp. As I said I really like mine but I wanted more size and hp that is why I have gone thru two up grades and finally the Grizzly G0766.

This grizzly is almost an exact clone for a starter lathe, but the swing and hp are lower.http://grizzly.com/products/12-x-18-Variable-Speed-Wood-Lathe/T25920

[Frank Drew]

I disagree with the ideal that outboard turning is best reserved for large work; getting the bed out of your way so that you can work all around the piece is a major plus, IMO. I turned bowls ranging from 2" diameter to 19" (on a 12" lathe I packed up to just under 20"), and always found the bed a PIA. Certainly not a deal breaker, but an annoyance.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

The small lathes that were referred to are NOT General lathes, but General International, Chinese produced and using the good name of the old General lathe

Ruth Niles of bottle stopper fame, has turned for years on a General.

Lorne there is a full size General 26020 EVS for sale in Abbotsford BC, has outboard capabilities if required, has a 2HP Baldor motor.

Those Generals were build like a tank, school abuse was withstood with no problem, there are all kinds of them around, but people tend to hang on to them, some parts if you are able to break the heavy cast iron are very hard to find, short of buying another lathe, as they aren’t build anymore, and the warehouse has few parts left at skyhigh prices.
330003

Bigger lathe bigger price, he is selling it because he bought a bigger lathe, a Vicmark VL300 long bed.
If you go to the Canadian Woodworking forum you can look for John in Abbotsford and find pictures and other information if needed, HTH

[Frank Drew]

Back in the mid-Nineties, I looked at the Canadian-made General but, as good as they were in so many ways, they didn't have variable speed or reversing, which meant that they had different threading on the outboard spindle so the user couldn't use the same tooling inboard and out-. I don't know if they've added those features yet (but if not, what the heck?)

[Frank Drew]

Does General Canada still even make lathes? Is the 260 discontinued?

[Lorne Collicutt]

thanks Leo. I actually saw that one online but my shop is pretty full of tools and I don't think I'd have anywhere to put that size of floor model. That's why (in addition to just getting into woodturning) I was leaning towards a benchtop model.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Back in the mid-Nineties, I looked at the Canadian-made General but, as good as they were in so many ways, they didn't have variable speed or reversing, which meant that they had different threading on the outboard spindle so the user couldn't use the same tooling inboard and out-. I don't know if they've added those features yet (but if not, what the heck?)

General had a high quality reeves drive, and true no reverse, and neither did other wood lathes in those days, but for whatever reason, they had a different size thread on the outboard spindle end, it was LH threading as was used on all lathes in the earlier models, so the outboard side could be used without reverse, many lathes didn’t even have outboard capabilities.

The Co. did not keep up with changes and the lathes were only a small part of their woodworking machineries, the Sawstop introduction was the last straw into their demise, and all production of the old General products stopped in Canada.

The far east products are similar to a lot of the new smaller lathes, quality and QC is as good or better than most all products coming from there, price point is too high IMO

[Frank Drew]

Thanks for the information, Leo; I was also surprised to learn, well after the fact, that Oliver had gone out of business. Saddened, as well, although I couldn't have afforded them new.

My older 12" Rockwell 1460 (46-305) came with a dual-threaded, LH-RH outboard spindle (which probably loosened the thread grip somewhat); in addition to packing up both head- and tailstocks, I replaced the motor with a DC motor and a variable speed/reversing switch.