Which Japanese saw is appropriate?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys,
Yesterday, I found myself cutting 14 very small tenons - the shoulders were only 3/32" deep. I tried multiple ways to shape those and they all stunk. I finally used my Veritas dovetail and crosscut saws to cut all of them, but it was "challenging" and required a fair bit of chisel work to get them right.

In one of my failed attempts, I used my Japanese pull saw - I don't know the proper Japanese name but it's extremely thin and flexible. I use it for flush cutting plugs, etc. It would have worked for this job if the saw had a back that kept it from flexing. Which leads to my question: I see Dozuki saws that appear to have a rigid back. Does anyone know if those really are pretty rigid - enough to cut a tenon that's 3/32" deep at the shoulder and 1/2" long? Or do those saws have alot of flex in them too?

Thanks for your help!
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

Hi guys,
Yesterday, I found myself cutting 14 very small tenons - the shoulders were only 3/32" deep. I tried multiple ways to shape those and they all stunk. I finally used my Veritas dovetail and crosscut saws to cut all of them, but it was "challenging" and required a fair bit of chisel work to get them right.

In one of my failed attempts, I used my Japanese pull saw - I don't know the proper Japanese name but it's extremely thin and flexible. I use it for flush cutting plugs, etc. It would have worked for this job if the saw had a back that kept it from flexing. Which leads to my question: I see Dozuki saws that appear to have a rigid back. Does anyone know those really are pretty rigid - enough to cut a tenon that's 3/32" deep at the shoulder and 1/2" long? Or do those saws have alot of flex in them too?

Thanks for your help!
Fred

The spines on dozuki are rigid, but the sawplates are very flexible (that's sort of the point to such saws), as they are often on the order of 10-12 mils thick. Bending stiffness goes as thickness cubed, so the plate on such a saw is about 1/8th as stiff as that of a typical western dovetail saw. I think that if you continue to do that sort of work you might be best served by built-for-purpose detail saws (a.k.a. "craft saws") instead. Back-to-edge height also strongly drives stiffness, so a dedicated low-clearance saw helps a lot.

A couple options to consider:

- The Zona craft saws, available very cheaply on Amazon etc. Paul Sellars has a few relevant blog entries that might be worth a quick read: https://paulsellers.com/2013/11/saws-can-costly-inexpensive-two-extreme-saws/, https://paulsellers.com/2015/08/zona-push-power/, https://paulsellers.com/2015/08/zona-modellers-saw-pulling-a-few-strokes-for-different-folks/

- The Japanese detail saws that LV sells here (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=58686&cat=1,42884,58686) and here (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=50663&cat=1,42884,50663).

In an example of flagrant tool misuse, I use the smaller kugihiki (set-less, back-less saw, nominally for flush-cutting) that LV sells to kerf out the occasional gappy dovetail so that I can do a veneer fix...

[Brian Holcombe]

A dozuki would do well for that work. I tend to avoid dovetail saws for tenons because a bigger tooth works better in heavier material.

I tend to prefer the larger tooth dozukis, but made with a hardwood pattern.

[Patrick Chase]

Hi guys,
Yesterday, I found myself cutting 14 very small tenons - the shoulders were only 3/32" deep. I tried multiple ways to shape those and they all stunk. I finally used my Veritas dovetail and crosscut saws to cut all of them, but it was "challenging" and required a fair bit of chisel work to get them right.

In one of my failed attempts, I used my Japanese pull saw - I don't know the proper Japanese name but it's extremely thin and flexible. I use it for flush cutting plugs, etc. It would have worked for this job if the saw had a back that kept it from flexing. Which leads to my question: I see Dozuki saws that appear to have a rigid back. Does anyone know if those really are pretty rigid - enough to cut a tenon that's 3/32" deep at the shoulder and 1/2" long? Or do those saws have alot of flex in them too?

Thanks for your help!
Fred

One other remark: Because they cut on the pull, Japanese saws don't depend on stiffness (either blade or back) to achieve a straight cut, so in that sense you posed and I answered the wrong question. A good sawyer can make perfectly good dovetail cuts with a backless Ryoba (not me though - I use Western saws 99% of the time).

[Stanley Covington]

I see Dozuki saws that appear to have a rigid back. Does anyone know if those really are pretty rigid - enough to cut a tenon that's 3/32" deep at the shoulder and 1/2" long? Or do those saws have alot of flex in them too?
Fred

Japanese dozuki saws are intended exactly for the crosscut application you described, and do that one limited job better than any other saw, if I understand your explanation correctly.

The rigid back only stabilizes the blade; It will not correct for a user's failure to saw to the line. I suggest you use a marking knife or a marking gage with a sharp cutter to do layout. The saw can more easily follow this line. Some people like to pare to the layout line from the waste side creating a shallow "V" groove to help the saw get started. This can become a time-consuming crutch, but is indeed helpful.

Use proper stance, place the eye directly over and behind the blade, keep the wrist, elbow, and shoulder pivot in a single vertical plane with the joints loose (especially the wrist), place the index finger along the saw handle pointing in the direction of the cut, and pay attention to the movement of your hand to keep each stroke as straight (vs curved which is natural) as possible. Think "machine."

A 90 degree handheld wooden jig that indexes off the face of the workpiece can be helpful and speed up the job. Just index the jig in the layout line with a marking knife, press the blade lightly against the jig, and saw while following the guidelines I mentioned above.

Good hunting.

[Patrick Chase]

A dozuki would do well for that work. I tend to avoid dovetail saws for tenons because a bigger tooth works better in heavier material.

I tend to prefer the larger tooth dozukis, but made with a hardwood pattern.

Out of curiosity, when you say "hardwood pattern" do you mean the traditional triple-bevel crosscut toothing or something different?

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you guys! I'll go get a Dozuki then.
I appreciate your help!
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

Thank you guys! I'll go get a Dozuki then.
I appreciate your help!
Fred

Not to dissuade you from buying what will be a terrific tool, but... the Zonas are dirt cheap and basically made for exactly what you're trying to do...

[Brian Holcombe]

I goofed on this one, I thought we were talking about both the rip and crosscut operations.

A crosscut carcass should do fine, did you mark the shoulder with a knife as Stanley mentions?

[Frederick Skelly]

I goofed on this one, I thought we were talking about both the rip and crosscut operations.

A crosscut carcass should do fine, did you mark the shoulder with a knife as Stanley mentions?

Hi Brian,
I probably didn't explain well enough - see if this helps clarify..... I'm cutting small tenons, so I do have both rip and crosscut operations. But I'm not making very long cuts. I did most of what Stan said - I used a marking knife and gauge. I chiselled a slight "V" to help guide the shoulder crosscut. When I tried using my Japanese flushcut saw, there was just too much flex for me to manage - though I was probably not positioned correctly and will have to try it again Stan's way. So I resorted to using my small Veritas rip and crosscut backsaws. This was successful but challenging because the waste was only slightly thicker than the saw. So, I'm thinking that I'd have an easier time of it with a thin Japanese saw or a craft saw as Patrick suggested. Does this make more sense?

I saw two nice Dozuki on Tools From Japan's site, a rip with 19tpi and a crosscut with 25 tpi. Together they cost about $70 plus shipping. I've been interested in trying out more Japanese saws and if they'll work in this application I'll order them to try them out. (The Zona craft saws are no more than $12 each. So I think I will also drop by a local hobby shop to buy a Zona too.)

Thanks for your advice!
Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

Fred. Just use a hand router plane. You only need to work a small area down to a depth of 3/32" (2.38mm).

[Pat Barry]

For what its worth I use one of the Zona saws Patrick recommended. It works great for me for detail work such as what you needed to do although, I confess, I would have used my crosscut sled and table saw combo to do as many parts as you needed. I feel, for me anyway, I would get much less cut variability using that method. If it was only a few tenons then no doubt I would have reached for my Zona saw.

[Brian Holcombe]

How long are these cuts Fred?

The dozukis should work fine, but I might just chop them.

[Stanley Covington]

How long are these cuts Fred?

The dozukis should work fine, but I might just chop them.

Brian has a very valid point, Fred. However, you will thank us for procuring and learning to use a kaeba dozuki for cutting tenon shoulders of any size. They really can't be beat.

The downside is that when crosscutting in very hard wood, one must cut very precisely or the dozuki's small teeth can break off. Not a lot of meat at the tooth base and the teeth can be delicate. If one tooth breaks off in the cut, Murphy will ensure several of the following teeth strike that tooth badly dulling them.

Interestingly, when cutting this sort of wood, a backed Japanese saw in rip-tooth configuration but with small teeth (still larger than a dozuki) will work better than a crosscut saw. I have always found this phenomenon curious, and someday will analyze why. My point is that it is worthwhile having a rip saw in a dozuki style too.

Stan

[John Kananis]

Sounds like a job for a chisel and router plane.

[Frederick Skelly]

How long are these cuts Fred?

The dozukis should work fine, but I might just chop them.

The cheeks are only 1/2" long Brian. The shoulders are 3/32".

Yeah, chopping them was my first attempt. It seemed like the most obvious approach. But I just wasn't happy with the result.

Thanks man!
Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred. Just use a hand router plane. You only need to work a small area down to a depth of 3/32" (2.38mm).

Dang. That's the one approach I didn't try Stewie. That's a good idea and I'll try it. Thanks.

[Frederick Skelly]

For what its worth I use one of the Zona saws Patrick recommended. It works great for me for detail work such as what you needed to do although, I confess, I would have used my crosscut sled and table saw combo to do as many parts as you needed. I feel, for me anyway, I would get much less cut variability using that method. If it was only a few tenons then no doubt I would have reached for my Zona saw.

Thanks Pat!

[Frederick Skelly]

However, you will thank us for procuring and learning to use a kaeba dozuki for cutting tenon shoulders of any size. They really can't be beat.

Thanks Stan. I'm definitely interested in obtaining and learning to use a dozuki sometime soon. It sounds like it will be a good addition to my skills.

My ignorance of Japanese is showing, but can you please explain what you mean by "kaeba dozuki"? Is kaeba a type of dozuki, a brand of dozuki or something else?

Thank much!
Fred

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks Stan. I'm definitely interested in obtaining and learning to use a dozuki sometime soon. It sounds like it will be a good addition to my skills.

My ignorance of Japanese is showing, but can you please explain what you mean by "kaeba dozuki"? Is kaeba a type of dozuki, a brand of dozuki or something else?

Thank much!
Fred

Fred:

Sorry. Kaeba means "replaceable blade."

You may be tempted to buy a standard dozuki with a normal blade, but unless you live in Japan, or can sharpen the tiny little teeth on a dozuki yourself, the replaceable blade units are the way to go. Not romantic, I know, but se la vie.

There are a lot of brands. My favorite is by Okada, which sells under the name "Z Saw." http://z-saw.co.jp/en/02b_07029_dotuki240.html. There are no bad brands made in Japan I am aware of, but there are some Chinese companies that bought used Japanese sawmaking machinary and are selling them cheaply. The Japanese saws are made using very high-quality Swedish steel from rolls. The Chinese use melted rebar.

Rockler sells the Z saws.

I see that Lee Valley sells a rip dozuki. Don't know how good it is. Technically, only crosscut saws are called dozuki.

Stan

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Stan!