Dadoes with Hand Tools

[Don Emmerling]

I am having a rough time of making a 3/4" dado in soft maple. The dado is to be 7.5 inches and 3/4" deep, cross grain. I have a vintage dado molding plane (3/4") that is plenty sharp, but it just seems to skip over and then dig in and then skip, then dig etc. I had taken a chisel and outlined the length of the dado on each side to minimize tearout. I then tried using a Stanley 45 with a 1/2" blade and experienced pretty much what I described for the molding plane. I was able to achieve some success using a Stanley 71 to clean the bottom of the dado, but all in all it looked a little chewed up. I have these handtools but have no long term experience in using them. In the DVD's I have the process looks much easier than what I am experiencing. Is there something I am doing wrong or not doing at all. I really want to learn how to use handtools but the experience is less rewarding than I thought it would be. Any thoughts out there?

[Bryan Robinson]

I usually make crosscuts with a backsaw to outline the width of the dado. Then start the dado plane at the end of the dado and work back to the start of the dado. Once I have the channel started, then I can use the dado plane in a forward motion planing to the correct depth. Check out the Renaissance Woodworker Hand Tool School for some really good instruction for hand tool woodworking.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Don,

You do not say if your dados are stopped at one or both ends or if they are all the way across the piece.

Here is a post on why on my work the 'show' end is always stopped:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108191-Best-way-to-make-a-dado-by-hand&p=1091524#post1091524

One trick is to use a chisel slightly narrower then the dado to prevent the chipping at the edge of the dado.

If it is stopped at just one end, then it is easy to "mortise" one end of the dado so a saw can be used to cut the walls. It is then easy to remove the waste with a long bench chisel.

Hope this helps,

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Does the plane have a nicker? If not then I would probably saw the sides.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I have a vintage dado molding plane (3/4") that is plenty sharp, but it just seems to skip over and then dig in and then skip, then dig etc.

I was able to achieve some success using a Stanley 71 to clean the bottom of the dado, but all in all it looked a little chewed up.

For the applications I have used dados for, I do not generally care what the bottom looks like. It is going to be covered by a shelf or something anyway, so the appearance is not that important as long as the dimensions are correct. For what it is worth, I cut the sides with a backsaw, and finish them with a router plane.

When you describe skipping, with a sharp plane, and I presume a reasonably fine cut, it makes me wonder if you are going into a rising grain situation. The grain makes a big difference going lengthwise, but it can sometimes result in a skipping type situation (usually with dramatic tear out), if you are going across the grain and into the rising grain. Try coming at it from the other side and see if that makes a difference.

[Derek Cohen]

I am having a rough time of making a 3/4" dado in soft maple. The dado is to be 7.5 inches and 3/4" deep, cross grain. I have a vintage dado molding plane (3/4") that is plenty sharp, but ....

Hi Don

My first thought was that this is an unusual dado. Wide and very deep. What is it for?

For something this short - 7 1/2" - I would saw and chisel out the waste, not attempt to plane it. And if I did plane it, I would prefer to do it in two narrow side-by-side passes. Most of all I would not be going 3/4" deep without very good reason. Most shelving or dividers in a cabinet only need to be 1/8" - 3/8" deep.

As to the skipping when planing, my thinking is that the nickers are not aligned, since the sides are being chewed up, and these are pushing the blade up off the surface of the wood.

Edit: one more thought ... there is a good chance that your vintage wooden dado plane has a warped body. If so, it will not plane straight, and this could (also) cause the spelching you describe.

Regards from London

Derek

[steven c newman]

Had one today to do...actually two.
329644
Needed a stopped dado. Dug a bit out at the end, knifed two lines
329645
Used a backsaw to set the depth a bit better, then just a chisel and a mallet, to remove the waste. Turned the chisel on it's side, to clean the sides of the dado.
Needed to set a divider .
.329646
Will get glued in place when I glue the dovetails...just a pine tool box..
329647
Don't have a router plane, I do have a #39 dado plane..but it is 3/8" wide, NOT 3/7" wide. Dado is 3/4" wide, by 3/8" deep, by about 4" long ( give or take an inch...)

[lowell holmes]

You can knife the sides of the dado, and saw cut using the knifed edge as a guide. Then use a chisel to excavate the remaining.
Instead of sawing the sides you can excavate the dado using chisels and knife. Follow up with a router plane.

That's how Paul Sellers taught us at Homestead Heritage.

[Bill Rhodus]

having recently searched for a couple of dado planes to rehab for a young family member just starting to build furniture, i believe you should heed Derek's advise. retract the iron into the body slightly and set the wedge. remove the nicker and use a straight edge to check the sole and the side of the plane. i would be surprised if the body is not warped.

[Nick Stokes]

"The English Woodworker" has a youtube video showing the difference between chiseling or sawing a housing dado. Both of which work very well in my experience.

[Kees Heiden]

It sounds like the blade isn't sharp enough. Setting up these dado planes can be a pain. Like being mentioned the spurs need to be sharp too. They have a round edge, with the roundness facing to the bottom. File the (yes filing, they usually aren't very hard) spurs from the inside, leave the outside straight. The spurs must be a smidgeon wider then the blade. The blade must be razor sharp. When it is skewed, make sure there is relief on the sides. The blade must be a smidgeon wider then the body so it reaches well into the corners. Things to check onthe body: Is it straight? Is the sole flat? Many of these olf planes have a sole that forms a bulge just behind the blade. That bulge must be removed, with the blade under tension in the plane (of course retreated a litlle so you don't damage the edge). And make sure the blade is well bedded and the wedge presses down on the blade well, especially at the lower point.

I hope this helps. Sawing and chiseling is in fact easier.

[Robert Engel]

The spear headed knife (whatever its called) in your router plane will work better cross grain.

If the bit is razor sharp it shouldn't tear out that much but its only important on the show edge.

Dittos on sawing/chopping out. I've seen a guide block used to keep cut perpendicular.

[Kees Heiden]

Oh, and another note. Everything looks easier on instruction DVD's. They edit out the bad parts and the instructor usually has a lot more experience with that specific task then the viewer.

[Matt Bickford]

The symptoms you describe are from the sole not being flat or the iron not bedded.

[glenn bradley]

I'm also one who uses a back saw (a Dozuki in this case) to define the outer edges. I Mark the outline with a knife to help keep things clean if there will be a show end. I will then put a near finished depth cut or three in the waste area before going at it with my router plane. Your skipping and digging problems sound like you've got flex somewhere in the tool. Does everything seat well and tighten down OK?

329706 / 329705 / 329707

[lowell holmes]

I'm also one who uses a back saw (a Dozuki in this case) to define the outer edges. I Mark the outline with a knife to help keep things clean if there will be a show end. I will then put a near finished depth cut or three in the waste area before going at it with my router plane. Your skipping and digging problems sound like you've got flex somewhere in the tool. Does everything seat well and tighten down OK?

329706 / 329705 / 329707

That's how I learned to make them. I clear the dado with a chisel and router plane.

[Don Emmerling]

Hi Don

My first thought was that this is an unusual dado. Wide and very deep. What is it for?

For something this short - 7 1/2" - I would saw and chisel out the waste, not attempt to plane it. And if I did plane it, I would prefer to do it in two narrow side-by-side passes. Most of all I would not be going 3/4" deep without very good reason. Most shelving or dividers in a cabinet only need to be 1/8" - 3/8" deep.

As to the skipping when planing, my thinking is that the nickers are not aligned, since the sides are being chewed up, and these are pushing the blade up off the surface of the wood.

Edit: one more thought ... there is a good chance that your vintage wooden dado plane has a warped body. If so, it will not plane straight, and this could (also) cause the spelching you describe.

Regards from London

Derek


I made a mistake in my dimensions, the dado is about 3/8" deep, not 3/4" as that is the width. As I had previously stated I chiseled the margins of the dado and then I used a dovetail saw to further enhance the edges. I then switched to the 3/4" vintage dado molding plane to remove the wood. Although the dado plane was very sharp it did not like the cross grain, taking divots here and there. I then switched to a Stanley 45 with a half inch blade (also very sharp) with only a very modest improvement in performance. I then switched to a Stanley 71 router plane and eventually obtained somewhat of a passable dado. All in all a lot of work. This was not a stopped dado as someone had asked. The dados were in the side boards of a to be saw till. I guess my question is when back in the hand tools only days was this difficulty in making a dado quite common or was it much easier and I am doing something wrong, wrong tools or what.
Regards,
Don

[steven c newman]

Two ways to do a through dado:
saw cut the sides, bevel down chisel to remove the waste, flip over to pare flat
or
A Stanley No. 39 in the width you need( I have a 3/8" wide one)set up a guide strip to guide the start, depth stop to where you need to go. They also made a 3/4" wide #39. The 39 has two nickers, one for each side of the cut. Made for going across the grain.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I don't have a dado plane and can't speak for what exactly is wrong with yours, but when using the router plane it can be slow going if you try to remove a lot of wood. The key is being able to remove most of the waste with a chisel, so that you have a 1/16" or less to remove with the router plane.

[Don Emmerling]

I usually make crosscuts with a backsaw to outline the width of the dado. Then start the dado plane at the end of the dado and work back to the start of the dado. Once I have the channel started, then I can use the dado plane in a forward motion planing to the correct depth. Check out the Renaissance Woodworker Hand Tool School for some really good instruction for hand tool woodworking.
What you described is pretty much what I do. My question had to do with how difficult this was to do. I cannot imagine the oldtimers doing this and not mentioning how hard it is to do.

[Derek Cohen]

.... I guess my question is when back in the hand tools only days was this difficulty in making a dado quite common or was it much easier and I am doing something wrong, wrong tools or ...

Don, dados (and sliding dovetails) should take only a few minutes. Saw the sides, then zip out the waste with a chisel ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Sliding%20Dovetails%20II/15Slidingdovetail-removingwaste1.jpg

After this, smooth the floor with a router plane. This part should involve very little work. You are not removing waste, just cleaning up.

Regards from London

Derek

[Chris Hachet]

Backsaw, chisel, and router plane here. Sharp certainly helps.

[Bryan Robinson]

the first time was difficult and took longer than I thought. I made a bookcase last year with my grandson and it probably took 15 or so minutes for a 12 inch wide mahogany board. Maple would probably take a bit longer.




t

[Jim Koepke]

the first time was difficult and took longer than I thought. I made a bookcase last year with my grandson and it probably took 15 or so minutes for a 12 inch wide mahogany board. Maple would probably take a bit longer.

t

A few summers ago one of my grandsons accompanied me while building a book shelf. I showed him every way I knew how to cut the dados. The last one I showed him was to knock out a little waste at the stopped end of the dado. The dado area was first marked out with a knife. After the stopped end was cleared for about an inch, the waste area next to the knife lines was removed with a chisel to produce a saw wall. Then a saw was used to cut the edges to depth. The waste was then cut at an angle on each side to the depth of the dado. This left a mound to be removed from the middle of the dado. This was a simple task. My grandson remarked, "wow, that went a lot faster than all the other ones."

Dado cutting is one place where having a cranked neck chisel helps.

jtk

[Bill Rhodus]

Don, if you are anywhere near south carolina, you are welcome to catch up with me an we will cut some dados together in a variety of ways so that you have a choice. Also, if you want to mail your dado plane to me, i will evaluate it, fettle if possible, and take pictures of the steps i take. Let me know if I can help. Bill Rhodus 803-331-3541

[Don Emmerling]

Thanks for taking the time to respond while in London. I think my next dado effort will be the chisel method as you described, however I still wonder how the oldtimers used the vintage dado planes. I have seen videos of them being used and they seem to plow out the wood fairly easily. All so saw Mitch Peacock use the Stanley 45 without any difficulty. Will keep at it and thanks for the support.

[Don Emmerling]

Hi Matt,
I will check the sole for flatness and by bedding I think you mean is the blade well supported so it cannot chatter? The effect I am seeing is very much like a chatter. Thanks for responding.

[Don Emmerling]

Thanks for offer of sending you the plane for evaluation, I may just do that. I would stop in and see you if I lived closer (Johnstown, Ohio) because I just love to talk about tools and how to get them to work fine. I have no one here that I know about that uses (or tries) to use the vintage molding planes. It may be I am just making the same mistake over and over again without realizing there is a better way.
Don

[steven c newman]

I happen to be a bit closer....Bellefontaine, OH.....

Molding planes: Start at the far end, and work your way back towards you. It also helps to do a few small rebates, first, that way you are not hogging a lot of waste off with the fancier planes.

[Jim Koepke]

saw Mitch Peacock use the Stanley 45 without any difficulty.

Once you spend a few years fighting a Stanley 45, it starts to look easy. The Stanley 45 can be a frustrating plane to use. It's cousin, the Stanley 55 is even more of a challenge.

jtk

[steven c newman]

I can make use of the skinny one these..
329840
But it would need a guide batten, the 78?
329841
Just does it's own thing...

[Don Emmerling]

Hi Steven, Thanks for the offer. You are close enough that this may just be possible. I am going to try a few more things on some test pieces before I give up. I have cut the dadoes in the till saw that I am making by using the Stanley router plane. Was not too bad, but I was hoping I could do the dadoes using one of the vintage molding planes that I have. I will get back to you if I throw in the towel on the molding plane approach.
Regards,
Don

[Allen Hunt]

Don, You may want to watch some of the videos of HNT Gordon on Youtube. If you don't have the front nickers down past the depth of the iron, that may be part of the problem. Make sure that your plane is straight, remember it is probably older than you are. I've seen folks plane the sides to straighten them. Don't know if they glued on a thin veneer to get back to the original width. That might not be an issue anyway as old dado planes are probably a little bit thinner than when new due to shrinkage over time. Clamp down a board next to the intended dado to use as a fence. Gluing 220 grit sandpaper to the bottom of the fence helps to keep it from moving. I would start with the iron barely extended past the bed at first and work your way to deeper cuts after you get it working properly. I own some of those HNT Gordon dado planes and they are really nice, but a bit expensive. But they are beautiful! I've got an old one inch dado plane made by Auburn that I am going to try to get working in the next couple of weeks.

Don't give up!

Allen

[steven c newman]

Not sure IF it has been mentioned here, or not:

Check the sole for flat with a straightedge. Sounds almost like the bottom is a bit rounded up on the ends. Then, it rocks along. Too much pressure on the heel, and it stops cutting, too much on the nose, and it digs in. Simple to check, simple to fix.

[Don Emmerling]

Thanks Allen for responding. I have not had to do another dado since I posted earlier in the year. Reflecting back on the whole thing I think that I had the blade set a little too aggressive. I could not obtain the same experience that I saw on Youtube videos where they used a board to act as a fence then just started in with the dado plane. It all went so easy in the videos. I will be trying again soon to make some dadoes and apply many of the suggestions that I have received. I did as you suggested and watched the Gordon videos. Looks so easy when they do it. I cannot afford the planes he was using. They look great and I would love to have some of them.
Thanks again for your support.
Don

[Patrick Chase]

Clamp down a board next to the intended dado to use as a fence. Gluing 220 grit sandpaper to the bottom of the fence helps to keep it from moving.
Allen

A board used that way is usually called a "batten". If it's tall enough and square it will guide the plane in angle as well as position. I personally use battens where possible even when working with planes that have fences (for example I use my rabbet planes with their fences removed a lot of the time).