Advise on improving my sharpening setup

[Joe Kasier]

Hello, everyone. First time poster; long timer reader. I was hoping to get some advise on improving my sharpening setup.

Currently, I use diamond plates for sharpening. The reason I chose the diamond plates was because I didn't want to deal with the hassle of water stones. I like that I can just spray them with a bit of water and not worry about having to soak them. My highest grit goes up to XFine (about 9 microns) and I am finding It doesn't quite do it well enough.

I recently found out about the Shapton glass stones that don't need to be kept in a bucket of water. This is very appealing to me because I would get the benefit of water stones without the added mess. I see no need to replace my whole setup and I would just like to add a single stone to my lineup. Here is my thinking of the process:

Time to sharpen? Use the fine, and XFine diamond plates then go to the Shapton to polish it off (no pun intended). which Shapton grit should I add though? From the research I have done it looks like people go with the 500, 2000, 8000 Shaptons. If I added just the 8000 Shapton to my process, would that be too big of a jump? (9 microns to 1.8) Or would the 4000 or 6000 be a better option?

I really like to keep my process simple. I don't mind having to hit a single extra stone, but I don't want to add multiple. Also (and this is a little picky, I know) I don't want to spend more time than i have to sharpening. I like to hit the stones and move on with my day. If I am going to have to spend 50% more time on the 8000 than I would have to on the 4000, that is a bit of a turn off for me. On the flip side, I don't want to spend the $80-$100 and get a stone (4000 grit) that isn't going to improve my edge.

Maybe I am overthinking this?

[Tom M King]

I don't have enough experience with all the stones available to offer good advice on exactly which one, but I do have an opinion on the process. No one wants to spend extra time on sharpening...well maybe a few, but having more stones in the progression doesn't take more time. It takes less, if you have them set up to use efficiently. It takes fewer total strokes the smaller the jump. I use waterstones in a sink. If I'm somewhere that water is extra time and effort, I use oil stones. Most of the really good waterstones these days don't need to be kept in water. I'm sure there will be others along to offer advice. I'm a feel sharpener, and diamonds are on the bottom of that list, with Shaptons not much higher for me, so I'll leave the stone recommendation to the next posters.

[Patrick Chase]

Hello, everyone. First time poster; long timer reader. I was hoping to get some advise on improving my sharpening setup.

Currently, I use diamond plates for sharpening. The reason I chose the diamond plates was because I didn't want to deal with the hassle of water stones. I like that I can just spray them with a bit of water and not worry about having to soak them. My highest grit goes up to XFine (about 9 microns) and I am finding It doesn't quite do it well enough.

I recently found out about the Shapton glass stones that don't need to be kept in a bucket of water. This is very appealing to me because I would get the benefit of water stones without the added mess. I see no need to replace my whole setup and I would just like to add a single stone to my lineup. Here is my thinking of the process:

Time to sharpen? Use the fine, and XFine diamond plates then go to the Shapton to polish it off (no pun intended). which Shapton grit should I add though? From the research I have done it looks like people go with the 500, 2000, 8000 Shaptons. If I added just the 8000 Shapton to my process, would that be too big of a jump? (9 microns to 1.8) Or would the 4000 or 6000 be a better option?

I really like to keep my process simple. I don't mind having to hit a single extra stone, but I don't want to add multiple. Also (and this is a little picky, I know) I don't want to spend more time than i have to sharpening. I like to hit the stones and move on with my day. If I am going to have to spend 50% more time on the 8000 than I would have to on the 4000, that is a bit of a turn off for me. On the flip side, I don't want to spend the $80-$100 and get a stone (4000 grit) that isn't going to improve my edge.

Maybe I am overthinking this?

A couple remarks:

9 microns is equivalent to 1100-1300# depending on whose grit scale you use, but you also have to consider the max particle size. In my experience many diamond plates have "rogue particles" that are much larger than the average dimension (those these diminish as the plate breaks in) so you might want to "de-rate" your plate a bit when determining the grit progression.

Diamond films (3M 668X as [re]sold by LV, or the otherwise identical non-PSA 661X version that can be had more cheaply on Amazon) are a different matter - those are very uniform and can achieve an extremely fine edge. Given your aversion to messy waterstone slurries those might be another option to consider.

Basically all artificial high-grit stones can be used without soaking. Where the Shaptons distinguish themselves in that regard is in the low grits (<=2000), though there are tradeoffs involved with coarse resin-based stones like those - search the archives.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Joe and welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't indicate your location. You might live near another member who would be willing to let you test drive their stones to see if it is right for your use.

For me it is preferred to use a step (4000) between a 9micron (~1000 stone) and my 1.2micron (8000 stone). At least that is how one grit chart has them listed.

Many people do make the big jump. Maybe I should give it a try sometime. Most of the time if a blade isn't nicked or too badly worn it only goes to the 4000 then the 8000 stone.

You can always try the 8000 and if the jump seems too big acquire a 4000 later. I went the other way around with the 4000 first. After it didn't quite get the edge I wanted, an 8000 stone was purchased.

In oilstones it seems the finest sold top out at the black or translucent Arkansas stones. These are listed as being in the 6micron area. They can get a bit finer with use. I do not see much mention of hard jasper. It kind of burnishes an edge, but it also has some abrasive properties. There may be more information on razor forums.

jtk

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Joe,

I have both Shaptons (the older Pro series, not the glass) as well as DMT plates. First, today's stones don't need to be soaked. I take my Shapton out of its case, flatten it up, and I am immediately good to go. As far as grits are concerned, I have a 250, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, and 8000 Shaptons. For my smothers and good chisels I will run that gamut. If I am coming from the DMTs I usually go extra fine to 5000 to 8000 to strop. Seems to work quite well for me, but ymmv.

Joe

[Joe Kasier]

Awesome. I am leaning towards the 8000. My only hesitation is it is a big jump. The reviews on Amazon say it cuts fast, so maybe it doesn't matter.

Amazon won't have it in stock again for a few more days, so I have some time to think about it.

Thanks

[Kees Heiden]

When I used waterstones, I usually jumped from a 1000 to a 8000. Only when needing a very very scary edge I would have an intermediate one. But I do always use a secondairy bevel for the last polishing stone, so the amount of steel polished is very small.

BTW, I always understood to skip the glasstones from Shapton and go for the pro's instead. The glass stones are a rip off, very little abrassive material for your money. There are many other good brands. I had a Naniwa 8000 superstone, an older type, but it polishes very nicely. It also only needs a spray of water.

I switched to oild stones now, slower but somehow nicer in use.

[Warren Mickley]

I don't have enough experience with all the stones available to offer good advice on exactly which one, but I do have an opinion on the process. No one wants to spend extra time on sharpening...well maybe a few, but having more stones in the progression doesn't take more time. It takes less, if you have them set up to use efficiently. It takes fewer total strokes the smaller the jump. I use waterstones in a sink. If I'm somewhere that water is extra time and effort, I use oil stones. Most of the really good waterstones these days don't need to be kept in water. I'm sure there will be others along to offer advice. I'm a feel sharpener, and diamonds are on the bottom of that list, with Shaptons not much higher for me, so I'll leave the stone recommendation to the next posters.

I could not agree more. Intermediate stones. I am a feel sharpener too. I'd sooner rub my fingernails on a chalk board than put good steel to a harsh stone.

[Patrick Chase]

Awesome. I am leaning towards the 8000. My only hesitation is it is a big jump. The reviews on Amazon say it cuts fast, so maybe it doesn't matter.

Amazon won't have it in stock again for a few more days, so I have some time to think about it.

Thanks

The Shapton 8000 is rated very aggressively (~2 um particles in the Shapton, vs ~1.2 um in Imanishi and Sigma 8Ks). I don't think there would be any problem with a 4.5:1 step. You might do a bit more total work since you'll have to spend a while on the 8K to polish out all of the coarse scratches, but it wil work.

All of what I said above assume that the plate truly performs at its rated grit size, meaning that it either never had rogue particules or its been broken in to the point where they're all gone. If that isn't the case then a jump to even a "coarse 8K" like the shapton will be excessive.

I wouldn't recommend trying to step from your plate to any 8K that isn't made by Shapton, Norton, or Naniwa. The other manufacturers use finer abrasives at any given grit #. As an example if you tried to go from your plate to an Imanishi 8K then that would be a 7.5:1 stem (9 um to 1.2 um), and that starts to push the limits IMO.

[Derek Cohen]

Muddying the waters again ..

You may wish to look at the Medium and Ultra Fine Spyderco stones. They use minimal to nil water, and are hard and remain flat like diamond and oilstones. Available in 2" x 8".

Regards from London

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If you live near Columbus, Ohio, stop in and try my stones.

Also, consider "real stones" like an Arkansas stone. I am not advocating them, never having used one, but, for certain there is no soaking

I use my Shapton stones with no soaking, just a spritz. I think that this is not uncommon for some of the finer stones. I think that I noticed this stated about one of the ceramic stones sold by Stu. Read the top of the page here:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_403

Stu claims that the finer stones do not require soaking. I have not used these stones, but they are held in very high regard. I think that you can also get these stones from Lee Valley. Oh, and if you live near by and get one, I want to try it :D

[Chris Hachet]

If you live near Columbus, Ohio, stop in and try my stones.

Also, consider "real stones" like an Arkansas stone. I am not advocating them, never having used one, but, for certain there is no soaking

I use my Shapton stones with no soaking, just a spritz. I think that this is not uncommon for some of the finer stones. I think that I noticed this stated about one of the ceramic stones sold by Stu. Read the top of the page here:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_403

Stu claims that the finer stones do not require soaking. I have not used these stones, but they are held in very high regard. I think that you can also get these stones from Lee Valley. Oh, and if you live near by and get one, I want to try it :D

I need to test drive a few stones again, I may be willing to buy lunch for a test drive.

[Joe Kasier]

So much great information! Thanks to everyone for adding their two cents. I appreciate it.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I need to test drive a few stones again, I may be willing to buy lunch for a test drive.


Or just come over, brave my shop, and no lunch required. And maybe you can teach me a few things about sharpening, or vice-versa! Hell, I don't think that we have gotten together since 2013. We are probably past due getting together again.

If my memory serves me correctly, I have a Shapton 5000 (burgundy / wine) and I think the 16000 glass. I just know that I use it, don't spend much time looking at the back.

I think that I am over-due for refreshing the edges of my older chisels. My PM-V11 chisels are not remotely ready for that at the moment.