Destroyed New TS with Barkeepers Friend

[Terry Thillemann]

A few weeks ago I discovered two small rust spots developing on my month old TS. I believe it was caused from oily fingerprints I didn't wipe off after installing the fence system, extra wings, router extension, miter sled, etc.

I seen a post here last week regarding rust on the TS and a few people recommended Barkeepers friend to remove it. I wish I never would've read that thread! I don't recall anybody mentioning how potent it was and for whatever reason I was so excited to clean it up and apply CRC 3-36 I forgot to read the instructions.

I poured several lines of it on each of the table sections and proceeded to use #0000 steel wool to swirl it all around which took me several minutes to accomplish. By the time I made it around the table, I noticed the sections I started first turning a Gold haze color like the Titanium drill bits. I thought it may be normal and worked my way back around the table rubbing the steel wool with modest pressure as if I was polishing it by hand. The solution eventually dried up and I continued scrubbing to get it all off which it didn't come off easy at all. This took considerable pressure and time. While scrubbing, the film turned to a messy dust along with a lot of steel wool which was magnetized to the edges of the saw (I put tape over the blade insert so I'm hoping it didn't make it to the motor and make this nightmare any worse).

It took at least 45 minutes to scrub the table down just enough to get the majority of the film off the table (it also smelled bad but lucky I have a paint respirator for airbrushing which saved me from breathing it in). For the finale, I now have a table which has several darker lines where I poured out the lines of Barkeepers friend, some other dark patterned marks where it must have been thick and swirled up, and a tinted hue to the table which is nothing like the brand new shiny polished cast iron I had only hours ago.

I'm feeling very depressed right now and ready to go to bed to escape this misery. :( I'm hoping somebody here can tell me this is nothing to be concerned with and all can be fixed along with next steps. Is the table permanently scared with these dark marks? Am I able to polish it back up and get rid of the hazy film by using a ROS instead of rubbing by hand? Do I need something more course than #0000 steel wool?


329348329349329350

[Mike Henderson]

The top of my saw is not pristine. Maybe once a year I'll clean the worse crud off of it. So the advice I'd give you is don't worry about it.

Mike

[Jerome Stanek]

Is this saw to look at or do wood working.

[Tom M King]

Find Jack Fosberg's video of a sidegrinder with wire cup wheel running a Scotchbrite pad. That'll take care of it now, and any time in the future a lot faster than doing it by hand.

[Jeff Duncan]

It's understandable to be a bit depressed since it's apparently a new tool. However in the overall scheme of things it doesn't make a bit of difference to the wood how pretty and shiny your saw top is. I personally wouldn't waste a whole lot of time to try and make it all shiny and new again....instead I'd start cutting something with it. However I'm sure if that's what you want to do others can help you. My advice would be to go have a beer....or 3, and tomorrow start cutting some wood with the thing;)

good luck,
JeffD

[David Eisenhauer]

Put some Johnson's Paste Wax on it, buff it out and carry on. I can't even see what you are talking about from the photos.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Those shiny surfaces never last long.

[Keith Weber]

I restore a lot of rusty table tops by coating it with WD-40 and then putting a lot of elbow grease into it with a green Scotchbrite pad. They come out shiny and new looking and doesn't scratch the top up like a wire wheel would. It's worth a shot trying it over what you've got there now.

[Brian Henderson]

Honestly, this is a tool, not a piece of art. Make some sawdust and don't worry about it.

[Mike Goetzke]

I have used close to this process on all my new (and old) cast surfaces:


Dave's Dirty Dozen
1) Scrape as much of the sludge as you can off with cardboard from the shipping container or a plastic scraper.
2) Use Simple Green right out of the container and tons of paper towels to get the rest off.
3) Wash off the Simple Green with more paper towels and clear water. Dry off with even more paper towels.
4) Spray the top down liberally with WD40. The WD in WD40 stands for Water Displacing, by the way.
5) Take a finishing sander, like a Porter-Cable 330, and put it on a ScotchBrite green pad. Random Orbital will work, but makes a hell of a mess.
6) Sand the top evenly until you feel like you've "massaged" the WD40 in very well. This also will knock some sharp spots off your top, a good thing.
7) Take even more paper towels, and wipe the top until dry. It will feel slightly oily.
8) Using a quality furniture paste wax (Johnson's, Minwax, Butcher's, whatever is available in your area), wax the top thoroughly and allow to dry.
9) Wipe off the bulk of the excess wax with paper towels.
10) Wax it again.
11) Buff well with paper towels.
12) Last step. Take a piece of wood with straight edges, and rub the surface of the saw in the direction of cut with the wood, as though you were cross-cutting it.
It's a damn sight more steps than "wash off with kerosene", which is what all the manuals say. But, it leaves a top that is seriously ready for work, and won't need to be screwed with every couple months. I rewax my tops every year or two, and they ain't rusty...


Dave Arbuckle


I used a 1/4 sheet finish sander and used T-9 before paste wax.

Good Luck,

Mike

[Kelly Cleveland]

New tools seem to be magnets for abuse. The first board I planed with my brand new Lie Nielsen smoother had a rock embedded in the surface and put deep scratches all over the bottom of the plane. The bottom line is if it cuts wood or not.

[Raymond Fries]

All tools get character wear marks. Buff it the best you can and move on. I used 1000 grit sandpaper before the steel wool for a couple of my machines. Doubt you can get the same even sheen as the factory polish but it might remove the stains that bother you. Good luck getting your baby like new again.

[Andrew Hughes]

I don't think your saws table looks bad at all. Just looks like it's first battle.After a couple hard woodworking projects it will have a differant look.
My advise is too wax it.And clean the top with WD 40 once or twice a year and rewax.

[Harry Holzke]

I have been restoring a bunch of tools in the last several months and have tried everything. I came across Sandflex sanding blocks on a Youtube video from someone at Jet cleaning a table saw. I got the 3 pack to try them out and find them incredible! The blocks have imbedded aggregate throughout the rubber block. The medium and fine work really well for cleaning machined surfaces. Sorry, I could not find the link on Youtube.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GACU1Q?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
(you can get these cheaper from other sources, I just like Prime for fast delivery)

[Bill McNiel]

As everyone above has stated "it's just not that big of a deal, lighten up and enjoy life". They have also provided you with a variety of methods for "curing" the situation. I appreciate your pain but in the world of woodworking there are many more mountains to scale.

My way of saying "this is nothing to be concerned about", You did NOT destroy the saw by any measure.

[John T Barker]

It is a piece of metal. Anything you do to it can be undone with an abrasive. All due respect to those that are prescribing the use of this and that. Stop. Get it clean with an abrasive and wax it...that's all it will ever need. This ain't rocket science.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I restore a lot of rusty table tops by coating it with WD-40 and then putting a lot of elbow grease into it with a green Scotchbrite pad. They come out shiny and new looking and doesn't scratch the top up like a wire wheel would. It's worth a shot trying it over what you've got there now.

I second this. This is the method I used to restore a rusted Delta bandsaw table that was left outside. I would add that before applying the WD-40 with a Scotchbrite pad, I used a razor blade to scrap away the rust as much as I can.

[Terry Thillemann]

Thanks to all who have contributed with many suggestions, I appreciate the feedback.

I know it will change as I use it, I'm simply upset it took some abuse before I even used it and it has to sit this way for another month or two while I figure out machine arrangement, electric, and dust collection.

I started using my rotary buffer for detailing cars and added green scotch brite. It's looking better than it was but it's still got a ways to go. I'm doing it dry because I don't want to sling WD40 all over. Would it go faster if wet? Perhaps a very light coat? Yes, someday I may be less picky but I'd like to continue feeling good about the huge sum of money I just spent on all my tools so I'm just trying to keep things looking good until I really put some actual wear and tear on them.

[lowell holmes]

+1 for Johnson floor wax.

[Matt Day]

I use my ROS with scotch brite pad and WD-40 all the time. No slinging for me. I don't hose it down though, just enough for it to be wet and have a slurry.

[glenn bradley]

The top of my saw is not pristine. Maybe once a year I'll clean the worse crud off of it. So the advice I'd give you is don't worry about it.

Mike


Those shiny surfaces never last long.

I empathize with the disappointment of getting the first ding in the new car. For you peace of mind though, the words of Mike squared above are too true. I hit a piece of metal that the tree had grown around at some point in its life. Nobody's fault but, I hit it with my brand new shooting plane. The nice smooth surface of the plane now has a long scar on it that does not affect the way the tool works but, it grins wickedly at me . . . even from the plane till ;-( Try to let it go and enjoy your new tools. Oh, and my personal preference is never to take a ROS or a grinder to my tablesaw; clean and smooth beats consistently scratched in my book. JMHO.

[Chris Hachet]

The top of my saw is not pristine. Maybe once a year I'll clean the worse crud off of it. So the advice I'd give you is don't worry about it.

Mike

Pretty much this....I have really ugly tools that do really fantastic work!

[Chris Hachet]

Find Jack Fosberg's video of a sidegrinder with wire cup wheel running a Scotchbrite pad. That'll take care of it now, and any time in the future a lot faster than doing it by hand.


I have used that myself on a drill press and other items.

[Pat Barry]

Your Barkeeps Friend is an acid and what you have done is etched the surface of the table. Your choices now are to clean it and make sure you get rid of the acid residue and then seal it (wax will do). If you want to get rid of the discoloration you may need to regrind or sand off the surface which I personally would not do. The scotchbrite pad with water first, then dried carefully and followed up with wax should be relatively harmless though.

[Doug Hepler]

Barkeepers friend contains oxalic acid. Oxalic acid reacts with metals and is an effective rust remover. Cooks use it to polish cookware. What you are seeing on your saw table is superficial, I should guess a few molecules thick, unoxidized and oxidized steel, and possibly some residue from the steel wool. You have not harmed your saw table in the slightest, except for surface appearance. My advide is to wax it and leave it alone. If the appearance bothers you, you can buff it out with metal polish, buffing rouge, etc. I would not use sandpaper but == if you must == do not use any grit coarser than Crocus cloth. I doubt that you will ever get the surface appearance to be uniform, nor would it have stayed that way very long.

One of my mottoes is "You don't have to work pretty to make pretty." I recommend a long view. If you keep a coat of non-silicone paste wax on your saw table, in a few years it will gradually take on that dark gray patina that you now see as unsightly streaking on a pristine surface. This is a good thing. The dark gray patina is a kind of iron oxide (black iron oxide) that will not easily transfer to work slid across it the way that red rust will, and which will partially protect the iron from rusting. Every old iron tool surface develops this if it has been properly maintained with periodic coatings of past wax. I would never consider removing this patina from any of my vintage power tools.

[Myk Rian]

You didn't read the directions.

You make a paste, not use it dry, or let it dry.
Steel wool is a no-no. Use a rag.

You didn't DESTROY the top. No need for drama.
Clean it again, properly.

[Chris Padilla]

Sell me your eyesore and get yourself another one! ;) hehehe kidding.... :D

WD-40, Scotch Brite pad, elbow grease. Or use a 1/4-sheet sander with the Scotch Brite pad and WD-40. Works great and doesn't throw the WD-40 all over assuming you don't use too much.

After that, Boeshield sprayed and lightly wiped. I then put Slip It on top of the Boeshield. I got a quart can of the Slip It many years ago...I think I've used maybe 2% of it. My grandchildren's grandchildren might be able to finish it.

[Daniel O'Neill]

Put some Johnson's Paste Wax on it, buff it out and carry on. I can't even see what you are talking about from the photos.

+1

I just did this to a 10 year old Jet Tablesaw and it looks pretty good (some rust spots) and the best part. I've never had the wood slide so nicely across it. I've also heard of people using paraffin wax if you have some of that lying around. On a side note: how do you store your paste wax? I just reopened the can to shine up some decorative copper in our house and it looks like the wax is shrinking in the tub. It's closed tight but there's obviously some stuff getting out.

[Peter Aeschliman]

In the future... as others have said, all you need to do is use WD40 and a scrotchbrite pad by hand. No need for acids or anything crazy unless you've REALLY let the surface rust over... meaning you touch it and your hand is covered in rust dust.

Once the rust is removed, clean it up with a solvent (mineral spirits is fine) and wax with a non silicone wax (i.e. johnson's).

I imagine you'll be able to clean your table up in an hour's work using the above method.

Now if you want your machines to keep from rusting in the future, you need to do a root cause analysis. That rust happens from condensation on your table. The condensation happens on your table saw top when the warm air in your shop touches a much colder cast iron surface, drops in temperature, and loses its moisture. This is because warm air holds more moisture than cold air. So when warm air gets colder, it can't hold as much vapor, so it condenses.

Wax will slow down the impact that the condensation has on your machinery by creating a barrier, but it will not solve it. Eventually your tools will rust unless you really stay on top of the waxing. So the key is to keep your shop temperature somewhat constant. This way, there won't be a meaningful enough difference in temp between the air and your cast iron surfaces to cause condensation.

I had rust on my machines all the time until I insulated my shop. Have never had any rust issues since then. I don't heat my shop unless I'm in there- it's all about slowing down the temperature fluctuations.

Good luck!

[John Lanciani]

On a more important note, why so much glue on hand? ( first pic for anyone who missed it) If you're just starting out and not a pro that glue will likely be expired long before you build enough projects to use almost 3 gallons of glue.

[Wayne Jolly]

Since you feel the saw is ruined you can give it to me. I would love for my PM66 top to be that "ruined".

Stuff haps, but you move forward. I had an incident where I just left a piece of wood on my saw, and where it lay, it rusted due to the moisture in the wood. I got out my WD40 and my little Mouse sander and went to town cleaning it up. I didn't use an abrasive pad, but I put a fine sandpaper on. That was followed by cleaning it up with an available cleaner (whatever is closest), then mineral spirits, then an alcohol wipe, then wax. It isn't all shiny, but it still "makes beautiful music".


Wayne

[Larry Browning]

OMG Terry! That saw is RUINED! There is absolutely no way it can be used for anything, well, maybe a boat anchor. But, I am here for ya buddy, I could use a new boat anchor, so why not just pack that baby up and send it to me (postage paid of course) so it can at least be put to some use?

Just trying to help!

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks to all who have contributed with many suggestions, I appreciate the feedback.

I know it will change as I use it, I'm simply upset it took some abuse before I even used it and it has to sit this way for another month or two while I figure out machine arrangement, electric, and dust collection.

I started using my rotary buffer for detailing cars and added green scotch brite. It's looking better than it was but it's still got a ways to go. I'm doing it dry because I don't want to sling WD40 all over. Would it go faster if wet? Perhaps a very light coat? Yes, someday I may be less picky but I'd like to continue feeling good about the huge sum of money I just spent on all my tools so I'm just trying to keep things looking good until I really put some actual wear and tear on them.

Terry

Yes, a wet solution will be better. WD-40 is okay, because it's a pretty safe product.
If you detail cars, you may even want to try using some clay as a polish and then WD-40 it again immediately to remove any residue. Fritz, or "Semi-Chrome" polish might work too. The Never-Dull available today, is garbage compared to the stuff we used to use in the Navy. ( Maybe they only supply the military with the good Never Dull. :( )
After that it would be a series of polishing/ lapping compounds in ascending grits. Unless you have experience lapping the seats, and trim packages of valves, I don't recommend going down this path without some help.
Take your time, use safe, non corrosive products ,and after a series of applications you'll restore the top. Don't try to do it one application.

[Wes Ramsey]

I agree with a poster on the last page - you need some liquid in the mix or it won't work right. I use WD-40 on some things, but normally a green scrubby and some machine oil does the trick for me. Then wipe it off and wax. Paste wax really is amazing stuff on a saw table. That said, I think all you're seeing is just the residue from letting the BKF dry on the table. I bet a green scrubby and some WD-40 would take off pretty much all of it.

[paul cottingham]

Wish my tools looked half as ruined as that. My rule of thumb: does it do what it should? Then you are golden. I apply this rule to everything, my outdated kitchen with mismatched appliances (gasp! Did i just admit to that?) my outdated bathroom, my ancient, but very functional tools.

i am just ribbing you, friend. But it still stands to reason.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Just wait till one of his friends sets a cold sweaty brew on his saw. Then you will hear some real whinning. It's made to work, not worship!

[Jerome Stanek]

He said he destroyed it I will take it off your hands for scrap price.

[Howard Acheson]

One basic rule--never use anything containing water on a cast iron tool top.

As has been suggested, all is not lost. The only loss is the shiny look. Tool table tops should be smooth and flat. Shiny adds nothing to the usefulness of the tool.

[Mike Henderson]

Was this a stealth gloat about getting a new table saw? If so, congratulations!

Mike

[Myk Rian]

Shiny adds nothing to the usefulness of the tool.
And it reflects light, making it hard to see sometimes. I was glad to give mine a patina.

[Erik Loza]

True story: When I worked for "the other combo machine company", one of the other sales guys told me about a customer who paid to have the cast iron tops of his combo machine plated with that gold Titanium Nitride finish. Never saw the machine myself but always wondered what thing looked like after a year or two of use. You never know what an owner's priorities are when they buy a machine.

Erik

[Jim Finn]

On a more important note, why so much glue on hand? ( first pic for anyone who missed it) If you're just starting out and not a pro that glue will likely be expired long before you build enough projects to use almost 3 gallons of glue.

I buy glue by the gallons myself. I use more than two gallons a year. (I do spend about 35 hours a week in my shop)

[Martin Wasner]

I take pride in my tools. I know full well that a tool that looks rough functions the same as one that looks mint. I also think that a tool that looks perfect helps with the mindset of the operator and what he's doing with it. Your mileage may very, but that's my take on it. I've worked in a lot of shops that were just dumps. I've worked in shops that were exceptionally clean and everything was well maintained. Guess which shops did which kind of jobs?


I wouldn't say ruined Terry. You mentioned an auto buffer. Is it like a big orbital sander, or is it like a Milwaukee 9" grinder with variable speed? I've got one of the big Milwaukee polishers. With a wool bonnet and a course polishing compound you can get that top to look shiny and mint again. I do it a couple of times a year. After that I rub the top down with paraffin wax and then a coat of Glidecote. Maybe once a month with Paraffin, and Glidecote as needed, probably a couple of times a week. The buffer and polishing compound won't remove course scratches, but it will make it shiny and clean looking again.


This saw is the saw we use for ripping solid stock. Last year it had about 7000 bd/ft cut on it, and who knows how many linear feet. The picture was taken a few minutes ago. I bought this saw used from a hobbyist five years ago, and it had barely been used when I picked it up. The little chip deflector under the blade still had paint on it. He had it in his garage and I don't think it was very well controlled for temperature and humidity. The top was a bit gnarly looking. It took a few hours, but eventually I got it flawless looking. After that the maintenance is pretty easy.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12439321_10207037569208892_5351822904159819294_n.j pg?oh=d05ab9185830a80673a26a6b7e52a3ca&oe=570A65EC

[Jerome Stanek]

I take pride in my tools. I know full well that a tool that looks rough functions the same as one that looks mint. I also think that a tool that looks perfect helps with the mindset of the operator and what he's doing with it. Your mileage may very, but that's my take on it. I've worked in a lot of shops that were just dumps. I've worked in shops that were exceptionally clean and everything was well maintained. Guess which shops did which kind of jobs?



reminds me of the one about a fellow that was new to a town and needed a hair cut. there was only 2 shops and he went to each to check them out. The first shop had hair clippings all around the floor the counter was a mess and the barbers hair had a terrible hair cut. He went to the other shop and the place was immaculate everything in it's place and the barbers hair was perfect. The fellow went back to the first shop and had his hair done why.












With only 2 barbers each had to cut the others hair and the shop that was a mess was that way as it was busier.

[Brian Elfert]

I attach a Scotchbrite pad to my 1/4 sheet sander when I need to do major metal cleanup. I usually use WD-40 with it.

[scott spencer]

"Destroyed" is a really strong word for what happened to your saw. It's not a dining room table or granite countertop. It's very likely that the streaks are correctable with some elbow grease.

[John T Barker]

Thanks to all who have contributed with many suggestions, I appreciate the feedback.

I know it will change as I use it, I'm simply upset it took some abuse before I even used it and it has to sit this way for another month or two while I figure out machine arrangement, electric, and dust collection.

I started using my rotary buffer for detailing cars and added green scotch brite. It's looking better than it was but it's still got a ways to go. I'm doing it dry because I don't want to sling WD40 all over. Would it go faster if wet? Perhaps a very light coat? Yes, someday I may be less picky but I'd like to continue feeling good about the huge sum of money I just spent on all my tools so I'm just trying to keep things looking good until I really put some actual wear and tear on them.

Dry will be faster. WD-40 is a lubricant. Adding lubricant to and abrasive reduces friction and slows the cutting you want to do. Try wet/dry sandpaper if you want to go faster. I think you can put it on a RAS in some pad form??

[Martin Wasner]

reminds me of the one about a fellow that was new to a town and needed a hair cut. there was only 2 shops and he went to each to check them out. The first shop had hair clippings all around the floor the counter was a mess and the barbers hair had a terrible hair cut. He went to the other shop and the place was immaculate everything in it's place and the barbers hair was perfect. The fellow went back to the first shop and had his hair done why.












With only 2 barbers each had to cut the others hair and the shop that was a mess was that way as it was busier.

I've got all the work I can handle. Thanks though.

[Glenn de Souza]

You haven't ruined your saw table.

Use a random orbit sander with 400 grit wet or dry paper, sprinkle the table saw with mineral spirits and sand the surface. If you want it back to polished showroom condition do it again with 600 grit. Don't go overboard, you're only taking away a microscopic layer on the surface like exfoliating skin. Then follow with the green scotchbrite pad and Johnson's paste wax, and your machine top should be back to gleaming.

As another poster pointed out, the oxalic acid in the BKF only etched the very surface of the cast iron. That's what you're removing using the steps above. Mineral spirits will do the same thing as WD-40 in this application.