My idea for a better table saw insert

[John Ziebron]

A few years ago I submitted this as a tip to one of the woodworking periodicals. I tried to be very thorough and provided pictures. Yes, I was disappointed that it was not chosen and published, but I was even more disappointed that they didn't at least send me a message back thanking me for my submission. So I thought I'd offer it up to this forum and see what you folks think about it. I will say up front that this project involves some drilling and tapping in your table saw and so it will likely not appeal to everyone. I've always had an issue with zero clearance inserts, especially for my Grizzly. Other brand saw ones are easier to find but they are all on the pricey side. And I think there are two reasons for this; the material (either hard phenolic or some kind of plastic) and the fact that they all involve labor to have four set screws installed to allow for surface adjustment. So I reversed that. I decided to drill and tap four holes, one in each of the tabs on my table saw that the insert rests on. I then put a set screw in each location. That way I can make a bunch of my own inserts and not have the laborious job of drilling and tapping and adding set screws to all those inserts. I used 1/2 inch MDF for the insert material. Here's the process. You'll want to drill the holes fairly perpendicular in the tabs. The reason for this is that it is better for the insert to sit flush on the tops of the set screws. You could drill by eye, but I used one of those little plastic drill guides with different size bushings. Speaking of size, I used 1/4-20 set screws. I just felt this is a good size for the job but you can go bigger or smaller. Cast iron drills very easy and you might want to use a shop vac if you don't want the small metal chips mixed in with your wood dust. The holes need to be chamfered on top and remember to use a little oil when running the tap through. For the inserts I used one of the metal inserts that came with the saw as a pattern and I also made some using a purchased insert as a pattern (more on that later). Take your piece of 1/2 inch MDF and rip some strips the same width as your pattern insert. Then cut them to rough length. By hand, hold down the pattern insert on each piece of MDF and draw the rounded ends. I used my miter saw set at 45 degrees to chop the corners off close to each rounded line. One at a time put a piece of double sided tape on the pattern insert and fasten it to a piece of MDF (you will, of course, have to use a new piece of tape for each insert). Then it's off to the router table with a pattern bit in place. After making as many inserts as you want set up your router table with a cove bit to make the undercut where the blade comes up. The location of the undercut will vary depending on your brand of TS. If you use a couple of stop blocks this part goes quickly. I was able to make 18 inserts in a little over an hour. You will also want to drill a hole (I used 3/4 inch) in each insert for a finger hole to easily remove the insert. Lastly, there needs to be a way to prevent the insert from rising at the back end when the blade comes up. Many manufacturers use a pin inserted at a slight angle in the back edge of the insert. I made some this way and used a section of finishing nail with the head cut off. Be sure to drill a pilot hole though. One of my pattern inserts used a nub at the back which was part of the material itself. But it needs to be pared down part way. I also made some inserts like this. MDF is a nice flat material but it is not always the same thickness from sheet to sheet. So I suggest making all your initial inserts from from the same sheet. The other advantage now is that your set screws don't have to be readjusted for each MDF insert. BTW, you should use a bit of thread locker on each set screw so it doesn't move with vibration. Remember to break the edges of each insert and chamfer the finger hole. And even like a purchased insert, if you have a riving knife you will have to extend the cut from the blade by hand to accommodate it. You can still use the metal inserts that came with your saw but you may have to readjust their set screws if they contact one of the ones you've just installed.

[Frank Pratt]

I'm sure that's a good idea and all, but honestly, I didn't get past the 3rd line before my eyes shut down. Could you edit your post & break it up into small paragraphs? Thanks.

[John Schweikert]

I've made inserts and put the set screws in the new insert so I can adjust from above with everything in place, much like Sawstop and others do. I just looked at the pictures; all that text is an eyesore.

[John TenEyck]

I see the benefit, but I'm not about to drill and tap those tabs. The minute or two it takes to put 4 screws in the bottom of the insert and adjust them doesn't warrant doing that, IMO.

John

[John Ziebron]

Really? Do you guys actually read any woodworking magazine articles or do you just look at the pictures? Doesn't sound like you've ever read a book either. I wrote the post as short as I could while keeping it detailed enough in case anyone was actually interested. If someone actually read it I'd like to think they would realize the benefits. But if you're someone who only uses one zero clearance insert every few years I guess it wouldn't matter.

[Robert Hayward]

John, the length of the article is not the problem. It is the lack of paragraph structure of the article, not the content or length. Were the article broken into paragraphs I bet a bunch of people would start reading it. I know I would, were it broken into paragraphs.

[Barrett Sammons]

Dude, the wall of text is hard to read and hard on the eyes. You could take the suggestions without getting defensive and you would be able reach more people. It would have taken less time to add the paragraphs that's to post your last reply. I was actually going to do it for you since those inserts look nice but then I read your reply.

[John TenEyck]

I have a multitude of ZCI's and one is almost always on my saws. It wasn't necessary to read 5 minutes worth of prose to understand what the pictures were showing, or at least as much as I needed/wanted. Had you described the important points in a short paragraph or a few bullet points perhaps I and others would have read it. But just looking at that big block of print convinced me to look at the pictures first, and last.

From an old class: "Communication is not how you intend it to be, it's how it is received."

John

[Keith Weber]

Actually, I'd prefer to have the traditional set-screw-in-insert design. Once made, it takes seconds to adjust it flush with the table using a straight edge while turning the screws from above the insert. Easy Breezy.

With your design, you have to install the plate, check for flushness, remove the insert, guess on how much to adjust the insert and adjust the set screw, re-install the insert, check for flushness (you'll probably still be off a bit), remove the insert again, re-adjust again, re-install the insert, repeat as necessary, then repeat for the other 3 screws. That seems like a very finicky way to adjust an insert.

I also used multiple inserts in my table saw before I replaced it with the slider (straight cut, 45° cut, dado, etc.) With the traditional method, I could just swap the inserts knowing that they'll still be flush. With the set screws fixed to the table, any variance in thickness of your insert material (say MDF from a different sheet) would mean you'd have to go through the whole process all over again.

That's just my opinion for what it's worth. I do have to agree wholeheartedly with Frank regarding the paragraph thing, though. I made it to about the 10th line before I gave up.

[Myk Rian]

Really? Do you guys actually read any woodworking magazine articles or do you just look at the pictures? Doesn't sound like you've ever read a book either.
Well, thank you for that. Time to quit whining and go beddie-bye.
I've been making inserts like that for years. That's why it didn't get published. It isn't a new idea.
Now, I'm going to bed and read my book.

Oh. Bye the way. Use paragraphs.

[Larry Frank]

What a shame....might have been a good idea but too difficult to read.

If you are trying to get people to understand something, it needs to be written in an easier format.

What would I know....only spent a career as a technical person and wrote reports on projects.

[Matt Day]

Let's take it easy on the guy and not pile on.




though I do 100% agree with Frank and I stopped reading.

[Jason Beam]

Another way to manage your table saw insert plate.

1. Drill and tap the tabs you have in your saw's throat for some machine screws
2. Use them to level the insert instead of set screws through the insert itself


Was there anything I missed? I am sure you put a lot of effort and energy into your write-up. But I'm afraid you would get more with honey than vinegar. Your pictures told the whole story.

I appreciate the work that goes into developing an idea. But insulting the people you're trying to convince your idea has merit is never going to get it done. You should reconsider lashing out at people just because they disagree with you.


As for the idea - no, sorry. I don't consider this better. I consider it another way, but it's not a way I have any interest in trying. Being able to adjust from the top with the plate installed is far faster than having to remove it repeatedly to get things dialed in. For the record, I use a ZCI more than every few years. I also change my inserts frequently.

I absolutely love that each one is already set for the height it needs to be without having to mess with anything. This idea would require that either all my inserts are exactly (to within at least .01" or less) the same thickness around the edges, or that I have to go through the mind-scorching trouble of check-pull-adjust-reinsert-check-pull-adjust.

Far simpler to put the adjustment system on the part that is replaced more often. You don't move an insert from table saw to table saw.

I apologize for being critical - but it's honest feedback. If you want to feel attacked, that's on you to deal with. My intent, lest it be unclear, is to offer feedback on your proposal in the hopes that you take it in the spirit of help, not harm. It's out of my hands from here.

[Rick Lizek]

329356You can't beat this zci! Put the set screws in the zci. If you put the set screws in the support ears I would tap it with a hammer to give a location to drill holes that you could fit an Allen wrench so you could adjust it from above. That would be the easy smart way.

[Steve Kinnaird]

First of all, Thanks for sharing.

I did read the whole post.
But, I increase my screen 150% because it was very hard to follow.

I am fairly new to a lot of this, so any article that helps me understand why something is done one way or another is helpful.

I think the best part of it was the DIY to make your own inserts. The advice about using the same piece of MDF made a lot of sense. Even if the set screws are in the insert, it would help to keep all of them setup the same way.

Again, Thanks for sharing.

[Steve Kinnaird]

329356You can't beat this zci!

That looks interesting. Is the a link to the article>

[Joe Adams]

Quick edit of original post - I hope this helps!

A few years ago I submitted this as a tip to one of the woodworking periodicals. I tried to be very thorough and provided pictures. Yes, I was disappointed that it was not chosen and published, but I was even more disappointed that they didn't at least send me a message back thanking me for my submission. So I thought I'd offer it up to this forum and see what you folks think about it. I will say up front that this project involves some drilling and tapping in your table saw and so it will likely not appeal to everyone.

I've always had an issue with zero clearance inserts, especially for my Grizzly. Other brand saw ones are easier to find but they are all on the pricey side. And I think there are two reasons for this; the material (either hard phenolic or some kind of plastic) and the fact that they all involve labor to have four set screws installed to allow for surface adjustment. So I reversed that. I decided to drill and tap four holes, one in each of the tabs on my table saw that the insert rests on. I then put a set screw in each location. That way I can make a bunch of my own inserts and not have the laborious job of drilling and tapping and adding set screws to all those inserts.

I used 1/2 inch MDF for the insert material. Here's the process. You'll want to drill the holes fairly perpendicular in the tabs. The reason for this is that it is better for the insert to sit flush on the tops of the set screws. You could drill by eye, but I used one of those little plastic drill guides with different size bushings.

Speaking of size, I used 1/4-20 set screws. I just felt this is a good size for the job but you can go bigger or smaller. Cast iron drills very easy and you might want to use a shop vac if you don't want the small metal chips mixed in with your wood dust. The holes need to be chamfered on top and remember to use a little oil when running the tap through.

For the inserts I used one of the metal inserts that came with the saw as a pattern and I also made some using a purchased insert as a pattern (more on that later). Take your piece of 1/2 inch MDF and rip some strips the same width as your pattern insert. Then cut them to rough length. By hand, hold down the pattern insert on each piece of MDF and draw the rounded ends. I used my miter saw set at 45 degrees to chop the corners off close to each rounded line. One at a time put a piece of double sided tape on the pattern insert and fasten it to a piece of MDF (you will, of course, have to use a new piece of tape for each insert).

Then it's off to the router table with a pattern bit in place. After making as many inserts as you want set up your router table with a cove bit to make the undercut where the blade comes up. The location of the undercut will vary depending on your brand of TS. If you use a couple of stop blocks this part goes quickly. I was able to make 18 inserts in a little over an hour. You will also want to drill a hole (I used 3/4 inch) in each insert for a finger hole to easily remove the insert.

Lastly, there needs to be a way to prevent the insert from rising at the back end when the blade comes up. Many manufacturers use a pin inserted at a slight angle in the back edge of the insert. I made some this way and used a section of finishing nail with the head cut off. Be sure to drill a pilot hole though. One of my pattern inserts used a nub at the back which was part of the material itself. But it needs to be pared down part way. I also made some inserts like this.

MDF is a nice flat material but it is not always the same thickness from sheet to sheet. So I suggest making all your initial inserts from from the same sheet. The other advantage now is that your set screws don't have to be readjusted for each MDF insert. BTW, you should use a bit of thread locker on each set screw so it doesn't move with vibration.

Remember to break the edges of each insert and chamfer the finger hole. And even like a purchased insert, if you have a riving knife you will have to extend the cut from the blade by hand to accommodate it. You can still use the metal inserts that came with your saw but you may have to readjust their set screws if they contact one of the ones you've just installed.

[Bruce Page]

This is the last throat plate I ever made. I made mine out of aluminum plate but it could just as easily be made out of hardwood. The slide in inserts are easily made in a few minutes.

[Joe Adams]

Bruce,

Nice drawing! I'm not a machinist so I bought a Betterley Tru Cut insert for my Unisaw.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XXLv-HgRL._SX425_.jpg

[Rick Potter]

Nice job, John.

I have had the same problem, of submitting an idea and never receiving a reply. You would think they would at least have a standard reply thanking you for the submission.

[Marty Schlosser]

I had the same insert for my venerable Unisaw, Joe, and really liked it.

From my perspective, I agree that being able to either slide in or screw on a shop-made narrow insert is preferrable to the other alternatives. To each his own.


Bruce,

Nice drawing! I'm not a machinist so I bought a Betterley Tru Cut insert for my Unisaw.

[Pat Barry]

I honestly wonder why the tablesaw manufacturers don't do this themselves because it is a pretty nice solution. My only question is if you use a Loctite or something so the setscrews don't vibrate loose or out of position.

[Greg Visser]

What are the advantages of a zero clearance insert? Does it help dust collection?

Thanks,

Greg

[Daniel O'Neill]

Joe, Thanks for breaking up the text. It did make it easier to read even though I read a lot on the computer. Over on Reddit (and other websites) they usually put a synopsis at the bottom under the heading TL;DR (Stands for "too long didn't read). So that's always an option too. I like the idea overall. I think adjusting might be tedious to get set, but for a woodworker we should be used to tediously adjusting our tools right :) Thanks for the tips! There is a saying that there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors. I've learned so much over the last year + on this forum. It's a really great place with interaction between people.

[John K Jordan]

John,

Some comments on your idea and some constructive criticism of your writing.

-------------------------------------------------

I use several inserts for various blade thicknesses and dado blades and make new inserts as needed. I personally would not be interested in in going into production to make batch of inserts but to each his own.

Since each insert may have a different thickness I want each one pre-adjusted with its own set screws. It would not be useful to me to have the adjustment screws in the saw. In fact, that would make adjusting a chore - set the insert, guess at the adjustment needed, remove the insert and turn the screws, repeat. This will probably take several times until perfect. The current method of adjusting the screws from the top until the insert is level would be far quicker.

Even if a batch of inserts are made from the same stock minor changes might require readjustment. I have a commercial insert that has a small crown for some reason. This does not affect the use since the leading edge can be lowered a few thousandths. To have make fine adjustments for a number of inserts would be a pain.

Another potential problem - for the typical inserts there are metal set screws bearing against metal tabs on the saw. There would be very little wear with repeated use. Your method puts metal set screws bearing against MDF. This may wear into the MDF with use and require repeated readjustment.

Your idea is interesting and unique but I suspect the number of readers who would benefit would be small. Perhaps a large production shop could use this.

-------------------------------------------------

I have two editorial comments for you, one about your initial post and one about your submission to a periodical.

FIRST: considering your initial post. I agree with the others - your initial post is very difficult to read. Not because of the length - there are many very long posts. Not because of the content - it appears to be well thought out and well written. Not because of the words - the grammer and sentence structure is fine and I noticed few typos.

However your post is one of the most diffucult I have ever read because visually, all the sentences are jammed together! Browse this forum and others and look at some long posts. They are almost always broken up into paragraphs. Often the photos are interspersed with the paragraphs. Sometimes the writer includes a few words of caption with each photo which can make it easier to follow the ideas.

Here is a suggestion of how to go about this. Go ahead and write your text as one big block. Then go back and break it up into paragraphs to make it easy to read. Insert photographs between the paragraphs where appropriate. (NOTE: you can still do this by editing your post!)

Another way to approach organizing a long post with photos is to insert all photos first and leave some space between each one. Then write the text between each photo.

Your supposition that forum members here don't read much is flawed. In fact, a recent thread revealed that many here are avid readers! I personally read dozens of books each year and many articles.

One thing you might consider is how many busy people read forums. First, they look at the subject title and decide if they are interested enough to take a look. If so, they click on the post and often glance at the whole thing, notng the length, visual content, etc. This is a bit like turning a page in a magizine and glancing over the page.

Then, if still interested, they start reading the first few lines and decide whether to continue. If afraid you lost most readers before this. Reading through a huge block of text is a chore for the human eye and brain. This is MUCH worse if the lines are wide, for example all the way across the screen. Look at any magazine or newspaper. (Have you ever read one? Sorry, I couldn't resist!) All of these are printed in columns! It is too easy for the eye to lose the place when returning to the left side of a long line.


SECOND: Concerning your submission to a periodical. Editors are very busy people. They get 100s of submissions from hopeful people. But they are also human. If a submission is difficult to read and understand at first glance... guess what, it is ignored, trashed, forgotton. Next please. This is a very much like a personnel manager leafing through a stack of employment resumes. A quick glance at a few key points and it goes into one of several piles. The way a resume is organized says a lot about the way the person thinks.. I'm afraid a resume written as one huge paragraph would go in the pile at the bottom of the next to the desk.

My wonderful wife was an editor for years and reviewed scientific documents from all over the country. When she received a document like yours that lacked formatting she would not even read it. It would be returned to the author with a page of helpful guidelines.

-------------------------------------------------

If you are interested in improving your writing so people will look at your content instead of the image it presents, there is a wealth of information on the internet and in books. Another very helpful thing is to get someone you trust to read the article and make constructive suggestions.

It is very helpful to first type a long document into a word processing program where it can be reviewed, edited, printed, and easily passed to others for review. Then when honed, it can be copied, prehaps in sections, into a new thread. Note that I did not do any of that for this lengthy response but just typed it into my iPad! It is likely poorly organized and full of typos. However, I'm not trying to make a good impression and get my ideas across to to the public. Just to you.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

What are the advantages of a zero clearance insert? Does it help dust collection?

Mostly cleaner cuts. Also slivers can't slip down and jam next to the blade.

JKJ

[Mel Fulks]

"Zero clearance" new inserts should be kept on hand ,especially in commercial shops; the risk of a horrible injury is high using one that has had a set or two of dados used at one time. Requiring the table holes to be rectangular and have a rabbet, like the old Tannawitz and Oliver's, would save fingers. I applaud your effort to encourage folks to make the effort. P.S.: If you are an employee the boss will complain about having them, tell him you don't need to text anyone right now ...so it's ok.

[Bob Falk]

This is the last throat plate I ever made. I made mine out of aluminum plate but it could just as easily be made out of hardwood. The slide in inserts are easily made in a few minutes.

Bruce, how did you machine the aluminum? With a milling machine?

[Myk Rian]

What are the advantages of a zero clearance insert? Does it help dust collection?

Thanks,

Greg
It helps prevent chip-out on the bottom side of the cut.

[Wayne Jolly]

This is the last throat plate I ever made. I made mine out of aluminum plate but it could just as easily be made out of hardwood. The slide in inserts are easily made in a few minutes.

This is like an insert I made for my old Craftsman table saw except the plate was made out of maple (If I remember correctly), and the inserts out of Poplar. I really like it but that saw is gone now, replaced with a PM66. For the PM66, my son did some renovation on his house and there was a small Corian counter-top that he tossed. I made about a half dozen inserts out of it. For those inserts I didn't even bother with set screws. I just ran them through my drum sander to the proper thickness and lay them in. Never had any issues with them. They are always just the right height since there is no expansion/contraction to worry about.

Wayne

[Michael Stein]

This is the last throat plate I ever made. I made mine out of aluminum plate but it could just as easily be made out of hardwood. The slide in inserts are easily made in a few minutes.

That is awesome! Well done.

[Ben Rivel]

IMO the best way to go, if one is made by anyone for your saw, is to buy an aluminum milled one that has removable blank strips. I went with the Infinity/Colliflower ZCI for my SawStop and so far its been awesome. (LINK (http://www.infinitytools.com/SawStop-ZCIThroat-Plate-With-Two-Inserts/productinfo/100-335/))

329388

[Bruce Page]

Bruce, how did you machine the aluminum? With a milling machine?
Bob, I have an old Lagun FTV-2 turret/knee mill that came out of a job shop. I wouldn't want to make a living with it but it's great for a garage shop.

[Kevin Womer]

IMO the best way to go, if one is made by anyone for your saw, is to buy an aluminum milled one that has removable blank strips. I went with the Infinity/Colliflower ZCI for my SawStop and so far its been awesome. (LINK (http://www.infinitytools.com/SawStop-ZCIThroat-Plate-With-Two-Inserts/productinfo/100-335/))

329388

I have one of these too, and love this thing!
Kevin

[Rick Lizek]

329577
Here's a better view

[Charles P. Wright]

How well do you find that the Infinity insert holds down into the saw. In their original versions they had the same kind of lock down lever as the Sawstop inserts; but they had to stop that due to Sawstop asserting a patent on it. If it had the regular hold down, I would definitely get it, but without the same kind of positive lock down of the insert I am less sure about it.

[Frank Pratt]

The Infinity has no latch on the front of the insert like the SS one does, but I've never seen a latch on any other saw insert either. I can see no danger at all of the Infinity insert ever lifting up. It does hold captive at the rear of course.

One thing I've discovered about the Infinity is that the leveling screws at the rear work differently than the SS insert. If you set the original insert level, then you have to relevel if you switch to the Infinity insert & vice versa. That is a pain. It's either that or abandon the original insert altogether.

[Shawn Pixley]

John,

Some comments on your idea and some constructive criticism of your writing.

-------------------------------------------------

I have two editorial comments for you, one about your initial post and one about your submission to a periodical.

FIRST: considering your initial post. I agree with the others - your initial post is very difficult to read. Not because of the length - there are many very long posts. Not because of the content - it appears to be well thought out and well written. Not because of the words - the grammer and sentence structure is fine and I noticed few typos.

However your post is one of the most diffucult I have ever read because visually, all the sentences are jammed together! Browse this forum and others and look at some long posts. They are almost always broken up into paragraphs. Often the photos are interspersed with the paragraphs. Sometimes the writer includes a few words of caption with each photo which can make it easier to follow the ideas.

Here is a suggestion of how to go about this. Go ahead and write your text as one big block. Then go back and break it up into paragraphs to make it easy to read. Insert photographs between the paragraphs where appropriate. (NOTE: you can still do this by editing your post!)

Another way to approach organizing a long post with photos is to insert all photos first and leave some space between each one. Then write the text between each photo.

Your supposition that forum members here don't read much is flawed. In fact, a recent thread revealed that many here are avid readers! I personally read dozens of books each year and many articles.

One thing you might consider is how many busy people read forums. First, they look at the subject title and decide if they are interested enough to take a look. If so, they click on the post and often glance at the whole thing, notng the length, visual content, etc. This is a bit like turning a page in a magizine and glancing over the page.

Then, if still interested, they start reading the first few lines and decide whether to continue. If afraid you lost most readers before this. Reading through a huge block of text is a chore for the human eye and brain. This is MUCH worse if the lines are wide, for example all the way across the screen. Look at any magazine or newspaper. (Have you ever read one? Sorry, I couldn't resist!) All of these are printed in columns! It is too easy for the eye to lose the place when returning to the left side of a long line.


SECOND: Concerning your submission to a periodical. Editors are very busy people. They get 100s of submissions from hopeful people. But they are also human. If a submission is difficult to read and understand at first glance... guess what, it is ignored, trashed, forgotton. Next please. This is a very much like a personnel manager leafing through a stack of employment resumes. A quick glance at a few key points and it goes into one of several piles. The way a resume is organized says a lot about the way the person thinks.. I'm afraid a resume written as one huge paragraph would go in the pile at the bottom of the next to the desk.

My wonderful wife was an editor for years and reviewed scientific documents from all over the country. When she received a document like yours that lacked formatting she would not even read it. It would be returned to the author with a page of helpful guidelines.

-------------------------------------------------

If you are interested in improving your writing so people will look at your content instead of the image it presents, there is a wealth of information on the internet and in books. Another very helpful thing is to get someone you trust to read the article and make constructive suggestions.

It is very helpful to first type a long document into a word processing program where it can be reviewed, edited, printed, and easily passed to others for review. Then when honed, it can be copied, prehaps in sections, into a new thread. Note that I did not do any of that for this lengthy response but just typed it into my iPad! It is likely poorly organized and full of typos. However, I'm not trying to make a good impression and get my ideas across to to the public. Just to you.

JKJ

John, these are very good comments. Periodically, when we hire I review tons of resume's. One that comes in like the OP's is immediately cast to the side. Once, they might get a style / suggestion guide as to how to write cogent prose (or a legible resume). One is not communicating if no one is willing to read the information due to format, etc...

The best advice I ever got in my life is around communication. "Become expert in communication. You are translating the desires of the owner to the hands of the builder. The clearer you can make this, the better all will be."

The concept of paragraphs was not created merely to add an arbitrary structure; but instead to provide an organizing structure in which separate ideas / concepts / topics may be interpreted by the reader and understood most effectively. It is not about the author but about the needs of the reader / audience.

I don't write technical material anymore. But, I often edit or comment upon it. The OP's material is fine, but if lost in structure (or lack thereof) it really doesn't exist if no one is willing to read it. I might suggest Strunk's, the Elements of Style. This is still the essential book. No one seeks James Joyce style prose. Why use five words when fifty might do? Simple sentances in simple paragraphs. Edit down as much as possible but no further.

James, again, this is a nice response.

[Ole Anderson]

I have one of those aluminum inserts. I made a slight modification by drilling a small hole in the front and inserting a pin to keep it from lifting up.

[Lee Schierer]

This is the last throat plate I ever made. I made mine out of aluminum plate but it could just as easily be made out of hardwood. The slide in inserts are easily made in a few minutes.

I had one made for my Craftsman saw that uses the same type of insert.

[Bruce Page]

I had one made for my Craftsman saw that uses the same type of insert.
lol, a friend, after seeing the one I made for my Unisaw asked me if I could make one for his '70's vintage Craftsman. Sure, says I! It turned out to be much more involved and took twice as much time to machine as the one for my Unisaw. :rolleyes:

[mreza Salav]

Can I be your friend, please?! ;)
This (making a reusable ZCI) is among lots of other little things that I postpone until I have more time and not running after a project. Seems that time never comes. Very slick

[Larry Frank]

The comments by John K Jordan and Shawn Pixley should be in a sticky somewhere. They contain excellent advice. Some of Shawn's comments are great concerning why or how people decide to read something.

It does not matter very much if the writer thinks it is easy to read. The goal is to get people to read it and understand it. A post needs to have a title, structure and content that pulls the reader into the post.

[Andrew Joiner]

Can I be your friend, please?! ;)
This (making a reusable ZCI) is among lots of other little things that I postpone until I have more time and not running after a project. Seems that time never comes. Very slick

Me too. So I cut a piece of wood to fit the worn kerf and jam it in with glue. Fast and easy.

[David C. Roseman]

I'll limit my comments to the merits of the OP's design. Others have ably dealt with presentation and attitude.

If I want to make a zero-clearance insert adjustable, and the choice is between drilling and tapping holes in the most vulnerable parts of a $300+ cast iron saw table, and installing $3 worth of threaded inserts in a piece of MDF scrap, the decision is a no-brainer. A pretty common rule of engineering is that you modify the least expensive part, if it will accomplish the same goal. I suspect the reason the submission wasn't accepted for publication is that it was not, in fact, a way to make a better zero-clearance insert.

[John Ziebron]

Well I'm the OP and I'll chime in one more time on this thread. Seems like the thread got hijacked. Yes, I would like one of those aluminum throat plates with a replaceable insert. But they don't make one for my Grizzly and I can't imagine what a machine shop would charge to make one for me.

Let me say that I could have chosen a better title for this thread as it seems everyone focused on just the insert. But it seems like no one caught sight of the real reason I put the set screws in the TS.

When you make a big batch of inserts like I did out of the same material the advantage is that you not only don't have to put set screws in all the inserts but you only have to adjust the set screws in the TS once. And since the MDF I used is flat and a consistent thickness in the same sheet it works out perfectly. I think someone mentioned about the difficulty in adjusting the set screws because they are under the insert, but I simply used an adjustable combination square. Put it on one of your inserts and lock it in place for the thickness and then place it on the TS surface and adjust each set screw up to it and your done. You may need to make a slight adjustment if you have to make more inserts out of a different piece of stock, but you can sure make a lot of inserts out of a 4 x 8 sheet of MDF.

I don't know about you guys but I use a lot of zero clearance inserts. Standard and thin kerf blades as well as different widths of dados.

[Bruce Page]

Sorry John, my apologies, I was largely responsible for the hijack.
You are right, you can make a boatload of inserts out of a single sheet of mdf. I would never use half of them.

[Mike Chalmers]

the real reason I put the set screws in the TS.

When you make a big batch of inserts like I did out of the same material the advantage is that you not only don't have to put set screws in all the inserts but you only have to adjust the set screws in the TS once. And since the MDF I used is flat and a consistent thickness in the same sheet it works out perfectly. I think someone mentioned about the difficulty in adjusting the set screws because they are under the insert, but I simply used an adjustable combination square. Put it on one of your inserts and lock it in place for the thickness and then place it on the TS surface and adjust each set screw up to it and your done. You may need to make a slight adjustment if you have to make more inserts out of a different piece of stock, but you can sure make a lot of inserts out of a 4 x 8 sheet of MDF.

This how my Ridgid (not a premium saw I realize) is set up, and I make my own inserts. Very easy to drill the holes through the inserts to adjust the set screws.

I don't get what all the fuss is about.

[Patrick McCarthy]

[QUOTE=John Ziebron;2519433]Well I'm the OP and I'll chime in one more time on this thread. Seems like the thread got hijacked
. . . . . . . . . . . as it seems everyone focused on just the insert. But it seems like no one caught sight of the real reason I put the set screws in the TS. "

Ding, ding, ding!
John, a couple of thoughts/reactions:
1. John K Jordan was very kind, generous and thoughtful in his post.
2. Shawn Pixley was equally patient, gracious and also gave practical applications.
3. bruce Page did not hijack the thread, despite his gracious gesture.
4. They are much better men than I.

John, you posted because, presumably, you wanted to communicate a concept or idea. As the kids would say, EPIC FAIL.

Ccommunication is not what YOU think you are saying, it is what I am reading/hearing etc. Sometimes the failure is two sided; such is not the case here.

QUERRY: what do you think caused " . . . . But it seems like no one caught sight of the real reason I put the set screws in the TS."

You have ignored everyone else's suggested answers, and comments most here would have taken as proverbial food for thought.

None are so blind as those that will not see.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Always certain, seldom correct.

Gotta go beat my head against another wall.

[David C. Roseman]

Sorry John, my apologies, I was largely responsible for the hijack.
You are right, you can make a boatload of inserts out of a single sheet of mdf. I would never use half of them.


Bruce, what hijack and why the apology. John's thread subject is "a better table saw insert." What you came up with actually is. I know you weren't looking for attaboys, but it's quite well done.

[Jeffrey Martel]

I honestly wonder why the tablesaw manufacturers don't do this themselves because it is a pretty nice solution. My only question is if you use a Loctite or something so the setscrews don't vibrate loose or out of position.

My grizzly 771 came that way from the factory. Uses the same zero clearance inserts as the Rigid 4512. The inserts from the manufacturer have pre-drilled holes so you can adjust from above the insert.

[Michael Weber]

Well I'm the OP and I'll chime in one more time on this thread. Seems like the thread got hijacked. Yes, I would like one of those aluminum throat plates with a replaceable insert. But they don't make one for my Grizzly and I can't imagine what a machine shop would charge to make one for me.


When you make a big batch of inserts like I did out of the same material the advantage is that you not only don't have to put set screws in all the inserts but you only have to adjust the set screws in the TS once. And since the MDF I used is flat and a consistent thickness in the same sheet it works out perfectly. I think someone mentioned about the difficulty in adjusting the set screws because they are under the insert, but I simply used an adjustable combination square. Put it on one of your inserts and lock it in place for the thickness and then place it on the TS surface and adjust each set screw up to it and your done. You may need to make a slight adjustment if you have to make more inserts out of a different piece of stock, but you can sure make a lot of inserts out of a 4 x 8 sheet of MDF.

I don't know about you guys but I use a lot of zero clearance inserts. Standard and thin kerf blades as well as different widths of dados.
John, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for clearing that up. May give it a try

[John Ziebron]

Patrick, ding ding ding and epic fail (in caps no less). How childishly clever of you.

I may be wrong but I always thought the purpose of any forum is to express our ideas and experiences and to help someone when they are asking.

I did post a message apologizing for the length and structure of the original post. But, for some reason, I don't see that post here now. I honestly didn't realize how long that paragraph was until it was posted. But thanks to all of you English majors for pointing that out and helping me with it.

I believe Rick was the original hijacker of this thread. Bruce just took it a little further. I know that's frequently done. And I don't have a problem with it because I'm sure it was not done intentionally.

My intention was to show an idea I had that was put into practical use. I stated up front in the original post that this idea would not appeal to everyone, but it seems as though some took that as a reason to try and tear it down or distract from it for grammatical reasons. I always appreciate constructive comments but I was not looking for "suggestive answers".

Everyone seems to like the idea of the insert in an insert. And why? Because the real advantage is having a replaceable insert that can be home made and not having to adjust the main insert every time a new replaceable insert is used. My, what a coincidence of features. I wouldn't mind having one of those aluminum inserts, but last I checked nobody made one for my saw. And I can make a ton of my type of MDF inserts for what it would cost me to have a machine shop make an aluminum one.

It's been great communicating with some of you guys but in the future I'll just keep my ideas and experiences to myself.

And Patrick, please stop beating your head against the walls; you've done enough damage already.

[roger wiegand]

I've made my ZCI's out of leftover pieces of 6 mm baltic birch. I made a couple dozen a number of years ago and haven't run through them all yet. To level them I drive short flat head wood screws at the corners where the ears on the TS are. Adjusting the height to be level with the table takes less than a minute, when it's right I hit them with a drop of CA glue to keep them from moving. I've looked at the various insert options, but my current system is fast, simple, and essentially free. I could probably make 20-30 of them in the time it would take me to drill and tap my table top, plus I'd need to buy more tools (perhaps not a downside :)) to do that. Don't see the payback to a more complicated solution.

[jeff oldham]

you know it seems to me that if he took the time and effort to show and explain what he did and thought it to be beneficial to someone,,knocking him on how he wrote it is very narrow minded,,actually ii think he did a nice job on including all the details if someone wanted to make it,,,

[Bob Wingard]

John ... I have used a method nearly identical to yours for many years, until I finally broke down and milled one of those aluminum carriers with the dovetailed inserts. Two changes I would make to improve (my opinion) on your idea. 1) Lose the setscrew and replace it with a countersunk flathead screw ... more surface contact with the underside of your insert = a bit more stable #2) Drill small holes in the insert directly over the center of the adjusting screws ...with this, you can still adjust from above by inserting an allen key through the hole.

[Al Launier]

I like the ideas presented above for aluminum ZCIs. However, based on lack of experience with these, yet with experience with the aluminum plate on my router, plus having machined aluminum on my TS, I wonder if there is a need to apply some kind of durable coating to prevent surface tension, i.e. "sticking" when sliding wood, or other materials over the aluminum surface?

Do you feel it is necessary to coat the aluminum and, if so, with what?

Finally, is there any tendency for fine sawdust to accumulate within the sliding members of the ZCI?

[Bruce Page]

Al, I painted the one I made for my Unisaw with off the shelf spray paint primarily to prevent any black streaking from the aluminum. Other than some wear scratches it has proven durable. I never experienced any problems with sawdust accumulation.