Anyone have thoughts on the new LV Cast Scratch Stock?

[Randy Karst]

I was initially excited until I saw it uses the same cutters as their Wooden Beading Tool, I've not developed much enthusiasm for the ones I have (thin and distorted enough to require too much effort to flatten).

[Allen Jordan]

I thought it looked nice, and fairly inexpensive. It would be annoying to lap and polish the blade flats, though, if they don't come machined right.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Randy

I have ordered one, but will not get a chance to use it until my return to Perth.

I have a LN #66, which gets a lot of use, but this is a large tool and sometimes the handles get in the way, or the body is too wide to get inside a curve. I generally tend to make a blade for a wooden block, however the downside of this is the lack of height and lateral adjustability, or fine tuning when the the cutter is replaced after sharpening. I have the older LV scratch stock/beader, which is rarely used, as it suffers from this same disadvantage. The ability to set a fence is important in my view, not only for sharpening, but also when working grain from both directions. The new LV scratch stock should not suffer from these issues. It is a remake of a Preston model.

Much of the time I make my own cutters from an old 3/4" bandsaw blade. This is the same thickness as the LV, which are thinner than the LN cutters/blades. The LV blades fit the LN and Stanley #66, but are a little shorter. I like the extra rigidity of the LN cutters, however I prefer the thinner arris on the LV. The finer LV arris can create a sharper profile. This can be trickier to use since this thinner, pointier section is more vulnerable to follow the grain. Use light strokes until the profile is formed.

Regards from London

Derek

[Randy Karst]

Thanks Derek,

I have been considering the LN #66 largely because of their thicker and apparent machined cutters (verses stamped). I appreciate your shared pros and cons of a thinner blade (finer arris, sharper profile) verses a thicker cutter – helpful. The issue of the cutters is that LV’s are stamped rather than machined, leaving significant distortions that need to be flattened (significantly). When I commented on this to LV, they quickly sent a replacement set out (great service) but the replacement cutters suffered similar effects (distortions) of being stamped rather than machined. The fence on this new offering from LV looks to offer a more positive reference point to the work. Maybe their cutter manufacturing process has been updated? I look forward to your observation once your back home in Perth and have opportunity to assess. Pehaps, your practice of utilizing pieces of old ¾” bandsaw blades is in effect, best practice, as it would bypass the effects of stamping while offering a fine arris (+1 on sharp profiles).

Regards from California

Randy

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Randy

I have a couple of sets of the LV cutters. I have also a set of the LN cutters. The cutters from both makes require flattening before use. This is bone pretty quickly on a worn 600 grit (fine) diamond stone, and then onto my usual waterstones. It only takes a couple of minutes to prepare a new cutter from either maker.

A LV cutter was used in the #66 to make this beaded drawer slip. The arris (on the inside) needed to be fine as the outside of the bead butted against a flat drawer bottom, and a wide arris would have created a mismatch.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_2650c24a.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_c758cb1.jpg

As a matter of interest, did you attempt to use the LV cutters out of the box (packet), or did you prepare them first (and if so, how).

Regards from London

Derek

[Jim Davis]

Here's one I got in an old toolbox:329440

[Randy Karst]

Jim, that is a nice profile!

[Randy Karst]

Hi Derek,
Perhaps my problem is expectations; when purchasing tools from either LV or LN, I tend to expect a degree of precision. When flattening tools from either maker, I’m expecting + or – a few thousandths; the initial cutters received from LV were off by a few hundredths, the second set was better but still dealing in hundredths not thousandths. At the time of purchase (a few years ago), I used a Norton corundum combination stone (course / medium); progress was slow, finishing consisted of a fine India stone with final polishing on a translucent Arkansas slip. Cutter performance was not satisfactory and after a few sessions, the tool was relegated to a dark corner in a drawer. Jumping forward to today, I have diamond plates but have not thought to dress those cutters with them, instead thinking perhaps the LN #66 might be the way to go. Your success (thanks for the photos) and more contemporary methods of preparation may change my thinking and I will give the LV cutters another try.

Randy

[Tom M King]

I bought some of the LN cutters for an old Stanley that didn't come with cutters off the bay. I also bought the LV wooden beading tool. We had several reeded mantles to make in an old house that had several stolen years ago. I guess we might have had 25 or 30 square feet of reeding to do. The wooden beader did most of the work since the fence can be set farther from the cutter. We used the 3/16" multi-bead tool only. I liked the LV cutters better because I could get them sharper than the LN, and on the Heart Pine and Poplar we used, sharper meant a better finish.

I only worried about flattening the part down near the cutting action, and either of them worked just fine, and didn't take that long to prepare. I used Diamond Lapping Film on numbered drill bit shanks to hit the inside of the curves. I ordered and extra set that included that cutter, and sent it to Whiteside with the idea that they would make a custom cutter, but once we got into it, it went along fast enough that we were finished way before a bit could be made.

Beading, or reeding, is a pretty simple process, and I expect most of it that's ever been done has been done with less than perfectly prepared cutters. I'll be sticking with the LV cutters for future work.

Edited to add: we did end up used an old English center beading plane some too, but the majority of that job was done with the wooden LV beading tool. The metal Stanley started a lot of the little panels close to the edge.

[Tom M King]

I came back to this thread because I remembered something I should have said. When sharpening (including flattening backs) of small things like these cutters and router plane cutters, I use the edges of my stones. Rather than just using one edge of the whole face, an edge gives you plenty of surface area, and you don't have to flatten the whole face of the stones. Edges of the stones are plenty easy enough to flatten, and if it's not a thin stone, will sit just fine on edge.

[Randy Karst]

Hi Tom, thanks for your insight and tips. Obviously, from what you and Derek have stated and shown the cutters can do the job. I will update when I have a change to redress mine.

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Randy,

I have the LV Cast Scratch tool. I got it about a week ago. I bought an extra set of one of the cutter kits with it, and to be honest - I took a look when I got the shipment, was not impressed. I thought the cutters were very thin. They did what they are advertised as doing in pine - which is all I ran it through as a test. My guess is they would need some major attention before using them with a hard wood.

JB

[Tom M King]

The clients we did those mantles for want me to make one in Walnut. I ran some reeding on scraps of Walnut I had, and they did just fine. It will probably be a year or more when I'll have time to do the Walnut mantle though. I don't think I spent a whole lot of time on the cutters we used, but I did get them as sharp as possible. I looked at that cast tool, but it's odd the 3/16" reeding cutter is not listed with it. Beading with such a tool really is a simple operation. You just scratch your way down into the wood one light pass at the time. You don't have to use a lot of force, but sharp helps a whole lot. It's not a one pass operation. I've seen it done with the head of a wood screw.

[Randy Karst]

Hey Tom, be sure and share the pictures here when the mantle (even if it is a year from now) when the mantle is finished.

[Randy Karst]

Update: I selected a cutter from an unopened package from the second shipment LV sent (1/8" reeding) and was immediately impressed with how much closer the tolerance was; in contrast, it was uniformly flat within a 2-3 thousands of an inch (estimated)-nice. It took me less than 5 minutes to flatten and polish (it was flat enough that I chose to dress it with a medium Spyderco and then the ultra fine. I put it to test on some walnut and obtained a satisfactory result. While flat, it is still not "sharp" so perhaps a lightly honing of the inside radii and light re-dressing of the flats on the ultra fine will take care of that. Quite a contrast to the the single point cutter that was grossly out of tolerance down to the tip.

Joe, hopefully yours will clean up as easily.

Tom and Derek, thanks for your patience, advice and encouragement; I wouldn't have given these a second backward glance based on my initial experience and would have instead just spent more money on an LN or other product.

Blessings!
Randy

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

A couple of quick comments...

Firstly - our blades are not stamped, they are cut from hardened material using a wire-EDM process.

Blade thickness - scratch stock blades are typically the same thickness as a standard cabinet scraper - somewhere between .020 - .040 . The thinner material makes it easy to shape (or match) a profile quickly. Also faster to sharpen the edges (at 90 degrees).

Cheers -

Rob

[Randy Karst]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the clarification. I stand corrected and agree, the reeding cutter that I just worked on was clearly not stamped and apologies for jumping to that conclusion based on the initial cutters I worked on; the way a couple of those cutters deviated from flat as their transition to the cutting edge had the appearance of something that was stamped, this is not the case with the replacements. My experience with the new cutters is good-thanks for taking time from your busy schedule to respond.
Regards,

Randy