Union No. 5 "X" Plane

[Paul Fisicaro]

Hey Guys.. I just bought this Union X Plane No. 5 that I wanted to restore but unfortunately the tote is not the original (totally broken and about 1 inch too small) and neither is the actual handle bolt that holds it on. Im sure it will be pretty hard to find a replacement so I figured I would make one myself. I tried placing my Sargent 414 tote on there but the diameter of the bolt is a bit big and the tote itself seems like it should be shorter. Does anyone have this style of plane and if so can you help me out with maybe a few dimensions and angle of the bolt, etc?

Thanks!

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[don wilwol]

Here is the tote bolt off my X5. The angle is the same as Stanley
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Hey Guys.. I just bought this Union X Plane No. 5 that I wanted to restore but unfortunately the tote is not the original (totally broken and about 1 inch too small) and neither is the actual handle bolt that holds it on. Im sure it will be pretty hard to find a replacement so I figured I would make one myself. I tried placing my Sargent 414 tote on there but the diameter of the bolt is a bit big and the tote itself seems like it should be shorter. Does anyone have this style of plane and if so can you help me out with maybe a few dimensions and angle of the bolt, etc?

Thanks!

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[Paul Fisicaro]

Here is the tote bolt off my X5. The angle is the same as Stanley
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Thank you so much, Don. That helps a lot. So would a Stanley #5 Bolt fit in there? Same diameter? Also, Do you know if that pin holding in the adjustment lever can come out? I'd like to get it all cleaned out properly. I'm afraid to pop that thing out with a punch.

[don wilwol]

Yes a #5 bolt should work. If you are refering to the lateral adjustment, some had a screw holding them, and some had a peened pin, depending on vintage. If yours has a pin, I would recommend not trying to remove it. You've heard the song GLOOM, DESPAIR AND AGONY ON ME?

[Paul Fisicaro]

Don, it does have a pin and I figured it would be something not to trifle with. I really need (want) to get to that bottom adjustment knob for a nice polish but oh well...

Thanks for your help. Much appreciated!

[don wilwol]

I know what you mean. I use a dremel tool to get to it.

[Paul Fisicaro]

Don, getting ready for paint. She's gonna be all spiffed up and no where to go!

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[Chris Hachet]

Should make a nice working tool when it's complete-thanks for sharing this.

[Jim Koepke]

Looks like a great start to a fine plane.

I like the early lateral adjusters on the Union planes. With the disk above the rivet they work the opposite of all the other makers lateral adjusters.

Do you have a thread pitch gauge?

I do not know if the Union bolts use the same thread as the Stanley tote bolts. (12-20)

The one Union plane of mine was given to one of my brothers.

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

Hey Jim, I don't have a thread pitch gauge, unfortunately. I was just taping it up for paint and wow, I think I got a bigger problem. I just noticed a big flaw in this thing which I didn't notice when I bought it. One side of the base is much thinner than the other side. Is that going to hinder the performance of this thing? And Im assuming it will hurt the re-sale value if I wanted to ever get rid of it? I wanna puke.

[don wilwol]

Hey Jim, I don't have a thread pitch gauge, unfortunately. I was just taping it up for paint and wow, I think I got a bigger problem. I just noticed a big flaw in this thing which I didn't notice when I bought it. One side of the base is much thinner than the other side. Is that going to hinder the performance of this thing? And Im assuming it will hurt the re-sale value if I wanted to ever get rid of it? I wanna puke.

I just looked back at your photos. What do you mean one side is thinner?

[Paul Fisicaro]

look on the right side of the plane towards the back. Its about at least a 1/16th of an inch thinner than the left side then gets a bit fatter near the hump (not much) then goes thin again.

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[Zuye Zheng]

look on the right side of the plane towards the back. Its about at least a 1/16th of an inch thinner than the left side then gets a bit fatter near the hump (not much) then goes thin again.

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Don't think its anything to worry about, maybe the previous owner did some aggressive sanding to square the side for shooting.

[Jim Koepke]

Don't think its anything to worry about, maybe the previous owner did some aggressive sanding to square the side for shooting.

I agree. It also could have been cast that way. If it isn't exactly 90º, then it just might not be your best shoot board plane.


I don't have a thread pitch gauge

If you have hardware you know, then it can be used as a thread gauge. Something like a 1/4-20 bolt can tell if you have 20 threads per inch on another bolt.

Knowing things like the 20 threads per inch equals .050 of movement per full turn can also be used to make a crude caliper.

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

Thanks for your input, guys. I dont have the best luck buying planes on Ebay. Check out this gem.. Looks like someone took a bite out of the frog. And thats a hard one to find and If I do its probably gonna hit me in the wallet. Ill have to be more careful on the next few planes I buy. Im way too impulsive, lol

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[don wilwol]

If that broken Sargent wasn't listed with a broken frog, I hope you got a refund!

[Paul Fisicaro]

well, the lady didn't know how to take it apart at first, and she had it listed for $40. She finally opened it and some how I missed the broken frog but she reduced the price to 10 bucks because she said the handle was falling off. The lever cap alone is worth more than that. So no big deal. I did miss it though. Don't ask me how but I did. Im going to use the body for testing paint curing in the oven. I hate waiting 7 days for my Engine paint to dry. Time to experiment.

Don, speaking about Sargent planes and I know you have seen many of them. Have you ever seen this type of frog in a 408?

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[don wilwol]

if you knew how many times i've bought planes and realizedit had a major flaw! I’ve even done it in flea markets where i can hold themfirst!!

Here is a picture of your frog.
http://www.timetestedtools.com/sargent-type-8-bench-plane---400-series.html

[Paul Fisicaro]

Hahahaha! I think I just get all googly eyed when I see them. I get blinded. lol. Holy crap! That frog is from a HERCULES??! I thought it was like a super duper rare one. Hahaha!

[Jim Koepke]

I have made similar mistakes, we all likely have. What is that old saying? "The man who has made no mistakes has likely made nothing else."

I bought a #8 with a broken frog for $5. It could have been used without the lateral adjuster. I ended up paying about $40 for a replacement frog. I still haven't gotten around to putting it into service. It is on a long to do list that is waiting for me to get over a chest cold.

If you can recover some of your money with the lever cap, so be it. It is often the case that replacement handles sell for more than a plane with good handles, at least it used to be so.

It might also be wise to hang on to all the parts for use on future planes.

If you buy various makes of planes you will want to keep the parts organized. Some parts can be interchanged, some not. My tendency is to buy only Stanley planes, though a few others have come my way at prices that couldn't be turned down.

Keep an eye on ebay and a suitable frog may turn up.

Also remember rarity doesn't mean a plane is valuable. It is when a plane attracts collectors that the prices go really insane.

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

I might just piece this Sargent 408 out. This thing is awesome though. Never held a #3 style plane before. I really want one now. I m mostly work with small half inch stock so I think a #3 would be beneficial.

And honestly, I dont buy Stanleys. too many of them around. Id like a bedrock though, just because. I have two #4's, one "three" patent dates and one made in England. There so many around. I like the odd ball planes. Sargent seem to be my favorite. I have a 409 and a 413 but Im a newbie at this whole plane thing. I had a bout with dovetails for a year and change. They won. Now its planes. I still love dovetailing though but its the only thing that makes me enraged like the hulk. hahaha!

[Jim Koepke]

I might just piece this Sargent 408 out. This thing is awesome though. Never held a #3 style plane before. I really want one now. I m mostly work with small half inch stock so I think a #3 would be beneficial.

And honestly, I dont buy Stanleys. too many of them around. Id like a bedrock though, just because. I have two #4's, one "three" patent dates and one made in England. There so many around. I like the odd ball planes. Sargent seem to be my favorite. I have a 409 and a 413 but Im a newbie at this whole plane thing. I had a bout with dovetails for a year and change. They won. Now its planes. I still love dovetailing though but its the only thing that makes me enraged like the hulk. hahaha!

Sargent is a good plane. Many prefer them over Stanley planes. If you are going to continue acquiring planes of the same maker you may want to wait on selling off parts.

Will the current frog hold the blade secure enough to use without a lateral adjuster?

Adjusting the lateral with a small hammer or mallet is pretty easy after a little practice.

It might make a useable scrub plane. You may find it's sister down the road, cracked base, good frog.

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

It was missing the yoke, adjustment knob and the screw... But there is a 408 base and frog on eBay for $11 plus $5 shipping.. It's not a vbm though plus the frog is from a newer type. The base I have is cracked too so I'm not sure what to do.

[Jim Koepke]

It was missing the yoke, adjustment knob and the screw... But there is a 408 base and frog on eBay for $11 plus $5 shipping.. It's not a vbm though plus the frog is from a newer type. The base I have is cracked too so I'm not sure what to do.

How bad is the crack in the base?

It may be best to chalk it up to experience and see if it is useable as a scrub plane.

jtk

[Paul Fisicaro]

The crack is pretty bad because it goes through all the way through to the other side to the throat. You can see it in this image but not very well. I can actual flex it right there at that point and the crack opens up. No doubt this base will be my "paint curing in the oven" tester.

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[Jim Koepke]

When you get a lemon, make lemonade. At least the parts can bring you what you paid for it or may be useful when you find an inexpensive plane missing the blade and lever cap.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

When you get a lemon, make lemonade. At least the parts can bring you what you paid for it or may be useful when you find an inexpensive plane missing the blade and lever cap.

jtk
I prefer limeade with cherry syrup in it.:)

[Paul Fisicaro]

Don, Can you tell me the type of wood is on your Union X plane or at least what it should be?

Thanks!

[don wilwol]

Don, Can you tell me the type of wood is on your Union X plane or at least what it should be?

Thanks!

Union metalic planes had Mahogany handles (according to their catolog and from what I've seen)

[Paul Fisicaro]

Thanks dude! Do you know anyone who would spin me up a knob for this plane for a reasonable price? I'm going to try and make a tote but I have no way of making a knob unless there's a way I can make one with out a lathe. Crap, I dont even know where I can get a 1" thick piece of mahogany here in the Keys for the tote. We don't have anything here, just a Home Cheapo. Ill probably have to order a piece online.

[don wilwol]

Thanks dude! Do you know anyone who would spin me up a knob for this plane for a reasonable price? I'm going to try and make a tote but I have no way of making a knob unless there's a way I can make one with out a lathe. Crap, I dont even know where I can get a 1" thick piece of mahogany here in the Keys for the tote. We don't have anything here, just a Home Cheapo. Ill probably have to order a piece online.

I can turn one. PM me. I won't be right away though.

[Paul Fisicaro]

So the before and after of this Union X no. 5. Not too happy with the paint job but Its so hard to get in to all those crevices underneath the frog since it doesn't come out. I was still getting chips from pulling the tape off. I experimented a lot with my heat gun to cure the paint faster. It worked pretty good but I dont think its foolproof. It definitely needs to sit for a week before touching it, although I painted my sargent 414 two weeks ago and its still chipping so who knows.

A sand blaster would have been nice to get into all those nooks before paint time but I don't have a strong enough air compressor. I still need a rear tote and the front knob is cracked. I still have to polish the chip breaker and blade some more but since this thing plane is deformed, Ill keep it for myself and im sure Ill get some use out of it. Overall, i love this plane. The blade is THICK as hell and hopefully i can skin some wood with it in the near future.

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[Jim Koepke]

Looks great.

Most of the time the person doing the restoration is the only one who sees the flaws.

The feel of a freshly painted plane versus a rough bed is amazing.

jtk