Which Waterstone?

[Kurt Cady]

Ok...I know this is the millionth sharpening thread...but

I'm relatively new to hand tools but I got some Shapton stones for xmas. 1000 and 5000 and do to an oversight on my list I got both 8000 and 12000. Being as I'm just getting started with lots of other tools to buy, I don't see the need for both the 8k and 12k and can allocate those funds elsewhere. This lead to numerous searches about which to keep...and I stumbled upon numerous threads talking about the 5000 shapton being a dog of a stone and the sigma6000 being much better.


So, I guess my question is this. Seeing as I have the shapton5000 in hand, is the sigma pro 6000 that much better of a stone? And if so, would the sigma stone fit in well with other shaptons? Seems the shapton1000 is highly regarded. Would you go with a shapton 8000 or 12000? I guess put another way...if you could choose three stones out of shapton 1k, 5k, 8k 12k and sigma 6k, what would you choose?


I should also note that I don't have easy access to water in my shop, and my shop time is very limited, so I really like the splash and go idea of the shapton. It seems from reading that the sigma6k can be used and performs well as a splash and go stone.

i should also add that I have everything from Narex chisels, old Stanley planes and A2 and PM11 steel

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe it is just my confusion, but are you saying you can return some of the stones for credit or cash to use for other purposes?

My stone inventory keeps growing and it would be hard for me to think about letting any go but a few of the dogs.

Among my water stones the 4000 & 8000 do most of the work. The 1000 only gets used on chipped or nicked blades.

In real cold weather my oilstones take to doing the work.

The "running water" in my shop is poured from a 1 gallon milk jug or sprayed from a bottle.

My situation is surely different than yours. Last week a chisel from an estate sale had a fairly rounded edge. A lot of back and fourth on a long piece of abrasive mounted on a 4' piece of granite was needed before it was able to be honed on stones.

I sharpen garden tools, drill bits, metal working tools, axes, hatchets, kitchen knives and woodworking tools. It is helpful to have the variety of stones to use.

I am sometimes tempted to get something finer than my 8000 stone, but it seems a luxury. If a 12,000 stone was in my shop, it would likely stay.

Just my 329292.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Ok...I know this is the millionth sharpening thread...but

I'm relatively new to hand tools but I got some Shapton stones for xmas. 1000 and 5000 and do to an oversight on my list I got both 8000 and 12000. Being as I'm just getting started with lots of other tools to buy, I don't see the need for both the 8k and 12k and can allocate those funds elsewhere. This lead to numerous searches about which to keep...and I stumbled upon numerous threads talking about the 5000 shapton being a dog of a stone and the sigma6000 being much better.


So, I guess my question is this. Seeing as I have the shapton5000 in hand, is the sigma pro 6000 that much better of a stone? And if so, would the sigma stone fit in well with other shaptons? Seems the shapton1000 is highly regarded. Would you go with a shapton 8000 or 12000? I guess put another way...if you could choose three stones out of shapton 1k, 5k, 8k 12k and sigma 6k, what would you choose?


I should also note that I don't have easy access to water in my shop, and my shop time is very limited, so I really like the splash and go idea of the shapton. It seems from reading that the sigma6k can be used and performs well as a splash and go stone.

i should also add that I have everything from Narex chisels, old Stanley planes and A2 and PM11 steel

I have the 5000 Shapton Pro and the 6000 Sigma, and I'm probably the person who most recently called out the Shapton's shortcomings on this forum.

IMO the Sigma is a nicer stone, but both will work just fine for your needs and staying with the Shapton will free up money to plug the real holes in your lineup. Just soak the Shapton for a few minutes before use (but never more than ~10 min - the official limit is higher than that but I can't remember it offhand) and pay attention to the sharpening action. If it starts to "stick-slip" then clear the loading that caused it and soak/flush it more. Shorter strokes can also help.

If I were going to add a stone to your collection I'd go with the Sigma 13k, or the Shapton 12k if you're "brand loyal". The Shapton 8K is so close to the 5k that it wouldn't add much value for you. You might also want to consider the Takeshi Kuroda 10K mystery resin stone (http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/46). It's a bit soft and chalky, but it gets the job done nicely and is unbeatable for the money. It also works fine as a splash-and-go. In use it feels very, very similar to the Ohishi (Lie-Nielsen house brand) 10K, but I don't know if they're the same. If you want a known name-brand then the Imanishi 8000 is another good "value polisher".

Embarrassingly enough, I own every stone I mentioned above except for the Ohishi (which I tried in L-N's showroom).

One final note: Different manufacturers have different grit systems. Shaptons run coarse, for example the 10K (glass) stone has 1.74 um abrasive particles. By contrast the Imanishi 8K is 1.2 um, the Sigma Select II 10K is ~1 um, and the Sigma 13k is ~0.75 um.

EDIT: In case isn't clear, the reason I recommended the Imanishi 8K but not the Shapton 8K is because of the difference in grit systems. The Imanishi 8K has the same grit size (1.2 um) as the Shapton 12K. See also: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=13&chapter=5

[David Eisenhauer]

If you are thinking of not keeping all of the Shaptons you have now, I would say let go of the 8K. I use three Sigma stones : 1K, 6K, 13K. I have never used Shapton stones, but, I also have heard that the Shapton 1K may be a better stone than the Sigma 1K. Going with that and what you have in hand now, I would say the keep the Shapton 1K, buy a Sigma 6K and keep the Shapton 12K. If I am in a hurry, I can stop sharpening after using my Sigma 6K if I choose to, because my blades are basically sharp at that point. If I choose to refine them further, than I go to the 13K. The edge/polish remaining from the 6K means a very short time on the 13K if I do so. To me, the edge I get from the Sigma 6K would allow me to let go of the Shapton 8K (but I have never used one, so please consider that). I have been working with hard wood lately and tend to use the 6K to finish my primary bevel of 25 deg on my chisels, then use the 13K to put a small micro bevel of 30 or 35 deg on the end.

[Kurt Cady]

Maybe it is just my confusion, but are you saying you can return some of the stones for credit or cash to use for other purposes?

jtk

Yes. I can return any of the shaptons to Amazon for credit. Which is like cash.

My biggest thing is that tool funds are limited, but I like to buy the best I can afford, so I want a nice but reasonable three stone set.

After reading past threads more today it seems mr. Cohen recommended the shapton 1k and sigma 6k and sigma 13k. With the shapton 12k just behind the sigma 13k.

Right now im leaning toward keeping the shapton 1k and 12k and getting the sigma 6k from stu. Might also try the Japan manuf. eclipse guide from Stu as well. Anyone try that in the past? Has one one bought any "must have" tools from Stu?

[Patrick Chase]

Yes. I can return any of the shaptons to Amazon for credit. Which is like cash.

My biggest thing is that tool funds are limited, but I like to buy the best I can afford, so I want a nice but reasonable three stone set.

After reading past threads more today it seems mr. Cohen recommended the shapton 1k and sigma 6k and sigma 13k. And the shapton 12k just below the sigma 13k.

Right now im leaning toward keeping the shapton 1k and 12k and getting the sigma 6k from stu. Might also try the Japan manuf. eclipse guide from Stu as well. Anyone try that in the past? Has one one bought any "must have" tools from Stu?

The Shapton 12K (1.2 um grit size) isn't "just below" the Sigma 13K (~0.75 um grit size). The Shapton would be rated 8-9K in most other (JIS-6001-1998 compliant) manufacturers' lines. See the TfJ link I posted above. I have both stones, and the Sigma yields finer surface finish under 'scope.

EDIT: It's probably worth noting that most high-grit (say, ~6K JIS 6001-1998 and above) artificial stones are effectively "splash-and-go". At such fine grit sizes there isn't much porosity, and so water stays on the surface allowing you to make a slurry without soaking.

EDIT 2: A number of people on this forum have bought piles of stuff from Stu. See the "Waterstone sources" thread that's active right now.

[David Eisenhauer]

Oh Patrick, Patrick, Patrick.

[Patrick Chase]

Oh Patrick, Patrick, Patrick.

Yeah, I figured that would draw some heat. I'm actually a little disappointed. Maybe I should throw Norton under the bus too, since they make Shapton look like choirboys from a grit-inflation perspective.

For the record, I like my Shapton Pros. They're really convenient for travel, and work acceptably on all but the hardest steels I use. What I don't get is why some people seem to think they're magical stones made of unobtainium. They aren't - they're subject to exactly the same tradeoffs as every other stone in existence.

They're hard, which means they stay flat, but also means that they're somewhat challenged on difficult steels due to abrasive breakdown. They barely polish my HAP40 (PM-HSS) chisels for that matter.

They're on the coarse side (higher particle size than most other Japanese stones at any given grit), which means they're fast, but also means they leave a relatively coarse finish such that you have to work to a higher nominal grit# to get to achieve any specific edge condition. This may have something to do with why they offer a 30K stone - their 15K is still coarser than stones like the Sigma 13k.

They're nonporous resin-based, which means they're spash-and-go (though they are at least somewhat permeable and Shapton actually recommends soaking in their Japanese-market instructions), but leads to an un-"natural" feel. This is a nonissue for me though.

For the record, I don't think that there's anything wrong with the Shaptons - Every stone I own is governed by the same tradeoffs, and the better ones all navigate them about as well as the Shaptons do.

If I come across as frustrated it's because I see (both here and in the real world) people with limited budgets paying through their noses for a couple Shaptons, when they could have gotten an equally good setup for less by ignoring Harrelson Stanley's PR.

If I really had to procure waterstones on a budget my approach would be a no-brainer: Sigma 1000 hard or Bester 1200, Takeshi Kuroda 10K mystery resin stone (or Imanishi 8K if you must have a name brand). I once constrained myself to just those 2 for a week, and they got the job done very nicely.

[David Eisenhauer]

I most certainly and willingly bow to your expertise and did not in any fashion mean to question or disagree with your comments above, but instead was responding to your statement of

" Embarrassingly enough, I own every stone I mentioned above except for the Ohishi (which I tried in L-N's showroom)."

To repeat, oh Patrick, Patrick, Patrick.

[Patrick Chase]

I most certainly and willingly bow to your expertise and did not in any fashion mean to question or disagree with your comments above, but instead was responding to your statement of

" Embarrassingly enough, I own every stone I mentioned above except for the Ohishi (which I tried in L-N's showroom)."

To repeat, oh Patrick, Patrick, Patrick.

Ah yes. As I've said a couple times before, I am an irremediable stone whore.

[Jim Koepke]

Ah yes. As I've said a couple times before, I am an irremediable stone whore.

Oh, the temptation... The siren call of the stones has at times cast a spell on me. Then I have to think, are any of my tools not getting sharp?

My most recent acquisition was a large hard Arkansas stone. It filled a gap in my oilstone setup.

Compared to most here my water stone setup is pretty pathetic: a Norton 1000, a King 4000 and a Norton 8000 being the main workhorses. I also use strops loaded with green polish that came from a lapidary supply.

Back to the oilstones, my translucent Arkansas stones came from rock shows. The two jasper hones in the shop also came from lapidary sources.

My set up may not be the absolute best, I am sure of that, but they do get my tools sharp.

If my water stones needed to be replaced their replacements would likely be one of the three stone deals from Tools From Japan.

jtk

[Kurt Cady]

Can any of the self described stone whores comment on the use of a sigma6000 with a shapton1000? Seems going from a shapton 1k (15microns) to a sigma 6k (2microns) is a big jump on paper? Maybe not in use? Is it similar to going from shapton1k (15) to shapton 5k (3microns)?

maybe my engineer brain is over analyzing?

[Tom M King]

That's a fairly common jump. That 6k is especially fast cutting, which helps.

[Patrick Chase]

Can any of the self described stone whores comment on the use of a sigma6000 with a shapton1000? Seems going from a shapton 1k (15microns) to a sigma 6k (2microns) is a big jump on paper? Maybe not in use? Is it similar to going from shapton1k (15) to shapton 5k (3microns)?

maybe my engineer brain is over analyzing?

A lot of people here who have 2K-3K stones (including Stu himself) still go straight from the Sigma 1K to the Sigma 6K, which is a 6:1 jump. 7.5:1 isn't that much worse. You may spend a little more total time than you would if you had a mid-grit stone in between, but it won't be a big deal.

The Sigma 6K leaves a keener edge than the Shapton 5K in my experience. If you don't have a higher-grit polisher then go with the finer stone for now.

One last thought: The Shapton Pro #1500 would probably pair very nicely with the Sigma 6K. Stu sells it (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_402&products_id=674) for about $36. You'd basically be giving up some bulk-material-removal speed in exchange for faster polishing on the 6K during routine honing.

[Derek Cohen]

Yes. I can return any of the shaptons to Amazon for credit. Which is like cash.

My biggest thing is that tool funds are limited, but I like to buy the best I can afford, so I want a nice but reasonable three stone set.

After reading past threads more today it seems mr. Cohen recommended the shapton 1k and sigma 6k and sigma 13k. With the shapton 12k just behind the sigma 13k.

Right now im leaning toward keeping the shapton 1k and 12k and getting the sigma 6k from stu. Might also try the Japan manuf. eclipse guide from Stu as well. Anyone try that in the past? Has one one bought any "must have" tools from Stu?

Mmmm .. I prefer the Pro Shapton 1000 to the Sigma 1200 (not an exact comparison) because the former cuts faster. I prefer the Sigma 6000 to the Pro Shapton 5000 and the Sigma 13000 to the Pro Shapton 12000 because the Sigmas cut abrasion-resistant steels such as A2 and PM-V11 faster than the Shaptons. The Shaptons are fine on O1 steels.

The differences above are less about the quality of the honed surfaces and more about the speed of cutting. However, quality is also linked to speed - if scratches are not fully removed, the surface quality is reduced.

Regards from London

Derek