Looking for a high quality stay or opener top hinge door for beaded inset application

[peter gagliardi]

I am currently working a kitchen where i have a center arched opening cabinet with a small door on either side of the arch that i hope to top hinge. I have looked at the Blum Aventos HK-S for this, but here are my constraints.

It is beaded inset with flush doors.

One edge of each door is fitted to the radius of the arch.

The nice lady at Blum tech told me i could do a flush inset door with these if i built a box inside the cab to close against, AND, it would leave the door 1/4" proud of the face frame. Apparently, you can't just put in a simple block type stop according to her???

I'm pretty sure flush is flush, not 1/4" proud.
I would like a unit that ideally at this point could work either invisibly- like euro hinges, or with my Horton Brasses mortise butt hinges.
I need something that could provide just enough force to hold the door up when opened- approximately 3.5 lbs each.
Id also like a higher quality product than a simple friction stay- you constantly have to fiddle with and adjust these in my experience.
I know we have seasoned guys on here who must have run into this before??
Thanks for your input.

[Martin Wasner]

I was going to recommend the Aventos.... I wasn't aware it didn't work with inset though. I'll have to ask there Blum rep next time he comes through. I played with some doors that were mounted with it and I was surprised how well it worked. I'm not a fan of hardware being that complicated, but it seemed durable and the operation was decent.

I'm not sure where to look for small ones, (Hafele maybe?), but I think the gas supports are what you'll want. I did some years ago when I was working at another shop, I don't remember the source at all through. I agree the fiction type stays are a pain in the rear and not really worth the effort.

[Martin Wasner]

What about the HK-XS? Page 60
http://d1.blum.com/BEC003/aventos_ep_dok_bus_$sus_$aof_$v3.pdf

Looks like it works with regular hinge mounting.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm not sure I'm following....why would the doors stick out 1/4" from the face? Does it have to do with the arch somehow?

I just picked up a set of Aventos HK-S for the kitchen I'm working on. At first I thought they wouldn't work from the way the Blum catalog shows them mounted. But went to Richelieu today and examined the display and it looks as though they'll work fine for my application.....inset doors beaded face frames. Unfortunately I won't be able to fit them up and see until next week, (frames are still in the spray booth), so hopefully someone else has been down this path and will chime in in the meantime!

The gas supports may work as well, I used them years ago on a project.....just not nearly as refined and easy to install/use as the Aventos.

good luck,
JeffD

[Max Neu]

I don't see why you can't get the Avento's to work.The only thing I see you might have to do is bevel the bottom back edge of the door,which is probably why she is telling you to hold the door out a 1/4".

[peter gagliardi]

I figured if i had to have a complicated mechanism, Blum was my best option, so i was disappointed to say the least when told it wouldnt work.
My catalog is from 2011, so this style HK-S is the only one sized to fit my application, maybe they have other offerings in the new catalog i'm guessing you have?
Of course, like anything else, sometimes if you get a piece of hardware you can figure out how to make it work. I just dont want to order in the exact or "special size" and not be able to use it.
It is not at all clear with their schematic the "path" of the various parts of the door.

[peter gagliardi]

I don't see why you can't get the Avento's to work.The only thing I see you might have to do is bevel the bottom back edge of the door,which is probably why she is telling you to hold the door out a 1/4".
See, this is the problem. An experienced user will know more than a "tech" .
I couldnt understand either about the 1/4", but i figured they get this question, and they should know. Such may not be the case.

[Max Neu]

See, this is the problem. An experienced user will know more than a "tech" .
I couldnt understand either about the 1/4", but i figured they get this question, and they should know. Such may not be the case.
I haven't used one in a inset application, but I have some in my basement office in overlay.I examined it with a piece of scrap wood,sort of simulating an inset scenario, and the bottom edge looks to be the only issue, and I think a very small bevel on the bottom edge of the door would easily take care of it.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I think you should check out the aventos HK-XS lift. We got a demo of it this summer, its got a lot of good features. I recall specifically asking the rep if it would work for inset doors, he showed us it would, might take a little creative mounting but you don't need to create a full overlay condition. It uses two standard hinges in conjunction with the lift. You can use a single lift on one side for a small door, it can be tuned to adjust the opening speed for different weight doors. Worth a look.

[Max Neu]

Peter, I think you should check out the aventos HK-XS lift. We got a demo of it this summer, its got a lot of good features. I recall specifically asking the rep if it would work for inset doors, he showed us it would, might take a little creative mounting but you don't need to create a full overlay condition. It uses two standard hinges in conjunction with the lift. You can use a single lift on one side for a small door, it can be tuned to adjust the opening speed for different weight doors. Worth a look.
I have never tried that one,is that a "one size fits all"? The ones I have used are sort of a pain to determine which one to order,you have to weigh the door and go through their formula chart to figure out the hinge strength you need.

[John TenEyck]

The Kraby lift struts (see link below) are different but they might be an option if the Blum product won't work. I had to replace ones on some heavy kitchen doors last year with higher force units but they worked very well with those inset doors. The doors were top hinged with Euro hinges. I bought them in the US from a company called EFI at www. efi-us.com

John

http://www.richelieu.com/us/en/category/hinges-and-slides/opening-systems/vertical-opening-systems/lift-up-door/kraby-pneumatic-suspension-arm/1164685 (http://www.richelieu.com/us/en/category/hinges-and-slides/opening-systems/vertical-opening-systems/lift-up-door/kraby-pneumatic-suspension-arm/1164685)

[peter gagliardi]

John, that might have been an option, but it only goes down to 11 lbs.
Thanks to others for pointing out the HK-XS. That model isnt even in my catalog!
I looked it up on the blum site, and i see no reason why it cant work.
Time to invite my plywood/hardware rep up for a visit.

[Peter Quinn]

I have never tried that one,is that a "one size fits all"? The ones I have used are sort of a pain to determine which one to order,you have to weigh the door and go through their formula chart to figure out the hinge strength you need.

Im not an expert on that, have never even put one in, but my recollection from the reps demo was that it had a wide range of weights, you could use one or two depending on size/weight of door, and it's got a tension adjustment mechanism to affect the lift speed to the doors weight. We were getting a quick how to on the legra box system and he brought a sample case with those installed to play with. Looked interesting.

[Kevin Jenness]

Peter, Maybe this one?

https://twitter.com/jamiemhodge/status/455046291337510912

[Max Neu]

Peter, Maybe this one?

https://twitter.com/jamiemhodge/status/455046291337510912
Comes with easy to follow instructions also. :)

[peter gagliardi]

Well, thanks for all the help guys. I just called my plywood rep, and told him to send the Blum HK-XS units, and one way or the other, they are gonna work.
He did mention that the HK-XS is so new that they havent incorporated it in the main catalog, they just have a little pamphlet to hand out about it.

[Max Neu]

I read a little bit about it the other day,I am still not clear about what it does that the original doesn't do?Is it just a cheaper alternative? I see it's alot cheaper than the other version.

[Peter Quinn]

I read a little bit about it the other day,I am still not clear about what it does that the original doesn't do?Is it just a cheaper alternative? I see it's alot cheaper than the other version.


Its more cost effective, and smaller. The HK and HK-s are huge! The XS is not the hinge, its just the opener, so you need hinges, installation may be a bit easier? Door is hinged before lift needs to go in.

[peter gagliardi]

Yes, doors are hung currently. 329532 329533.
There are no other euro hinges in kitchen, so i decided that uniformity of all was better than omission in one area and went with the mortised butt hinges.

[Martin Wasner]

Should still work? I'd think? The euro hinges do some funky things with the way they kick doors out as they open, but I can't imagine that would really affect the lifting mechanism.

Is that sun burst coved back to the face frame? I've always wanted to try making one, but never had the opportunity.

Nice design all around. I gotta ask though, what's up with the slab doors on the outside units?

[Max Neu]

Wow,thats going to look great!I think you made the right choice.I agree, the Avento's are too big and bulky alot of times.I am looking for an alternative for flip up doors with glass,the Avento's are too much of an eye sore.I might try some from Lee valley,they won't be visible at all,but only open about 70 degrees.Seems like there is always a trade off.

[peter gagliardi]

Should still work? I'd think? The euro hinges do some funky things with the way they kick doors out as they open, but I can't imagine that would really affect the lifting mechanism.

Is that sun burst coved back to the face frame? I've always wanted to try making one, but never had the opportunity.

Nice design all around. I gotta ask though, what's up with the slab doors on the outside units?
Martin, what your calling a slab door is just a plywood dummy panel to be covered by an upper wall cabinet with glass doors like either side of arch on the bottom.
That is a quarter dome/shell style pattern -radiused back on the level, and radiused front in the vertical in birdseye maple with brazilian cherry accent stripes to make the design obvious and to give it some "pop" from a distance. I still have to make a small brazilian cherry and birdseye maple center to cover the small hole in the back.

[Martin Wasner]

I figured those slabs were just test pieces or something, I just wasn't sure what. Other cabinets dying into them makes way more sense.

[peter gagliardi]

Just an update, the Blum HK-XS stays came in, and I mounted them with my traditional mortise hinges as in the pic. Super easy to install and adjust, they work as advertised, and i would definitely look to use them again if the need arises.
Thanks again for pointing out this particular model.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm like the world's greatest easy button...