How to make curved front 5 pc doors?

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm bidding a project now that would require making up some 5 piece curved front doors. I've done a fair amount of curved work in the past and so making up the curved flat panels, rail blanks, and running the profiles are no problem. Where I'm scratching my head is how to run the panel grooves? It's not a tight curve, roughly 5' radius, but I think running through the grooving cutter is still going to leave an oversized slot. I'm not about to break out hand tools so I need another option. How do door shops mill this part? I'm thinking maybe just use an undersized groover and run it as a normal profile on a curved support?

Before someone asks....I'm not talking about radius top rails, but a full curved or bowed front like these....
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2133.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_2133.jpg.html)

Difference being that those are false fronts and so didn't have to work making it easy to cheat;). These will be fully functional and so have to be built correctly.

thanks!
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Shaper doesn't do this, it works better with a router bit in a table and a fence the follows the OD of the rails in the case of a convex curve like the photo. My first project at the present job a few years back was a bow front vanity with a pair of 5pc walnut doors, scratched head, found a really good review on another site on the exact subject, the guy had really worked this whole process out, I could PM you that link if you like. Basically used shapers and carriages and much as possible, but the panels grooves, came down to a 3/16" spiral in a router table with a curved fence, two passes to nail the panel thickness, which is often slightly variable. Outsource can be a good call there too of you are too busy to spend the time on it, there is good CNC curved door shop out there so you can focus on the case work.

I just finished up a set of vanities with curved corners, 3" ID radius, basically 1/4 columns with a flat panel effect in the field of the column, 4 layers of moldings, delicate curved coves coping into straights....lots of time pressure from client....I'm over the curved thing at present moment, would happily outsource rather than do complicated work with hot poker in rear.

[peter gagliardi]

Peter nailed it, router time.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

Outsource. If you're not already setup to make curved doors, chances are that you won't make any money making them.

[mreza Salav]

Yes, I was going to suggest what Peter has done, 3/16" or 1/4" router bit in router table, have the router bit sandwitched between two "fences" matching the curve (on the inside of the curve and outside of the curve) and then run the piece in between those two fences.

[Max Neu]

Are those applied molding doors?Hard to tell from my screen,you might be better off steam bending those.

[Joe Jensen]

I would outsource the doors if this a paid project. There are several companies tooled up to make them and it would cost you WAY more in hours than you would save. Just outsource the doors and build the rest. Heck even if for my own project at home I'd outsource the doors.

[Martin Wasner]

Outsource. If you're not already setup to make curved doors, chances are that you won't make any money making them.

Bingo. Gerry nails it.

[Jeff Duncan]

Thanks guys, outsourcing is not my first choice as frankly I know the quality isn't where I'd want it. Not an issue of price at all as I know they'll be cheaper....heck most everything I build someone somewhere could build cheaper....I need a certain quality level though and that's where outsourcing doesn't always work. May not make a difference on this particular project though, so it could end up being an option.

Max, those are bolection moldings on that project but this one is simpler, basically a shaker style door.

Peter, if you could PM that link it would be great! I hadn't even though about running them on edge through the router table but it makes perfect sense. I'm always trying to find ways to avoid the router and run stuff on the shaper. Looks like this is a good situation for the router though.

thanks again,
JeffD

[Max Neu]

Jeff,
If the door style is shaker,you can just vacum press 4 layers of 1/8" mdf to the shape you need,then make 1/4" strips out of 1/8" laminated poplar or soft maple for the frame.Use the door as a form for the solid strips that make the rails.This will give the look of a 5 piece door without all the hassle.

[peter gagliardi]

I agree with you Jeff, outsourcing is for budget jobs. You probably can make a bit more money outsourcing, but you learn nothing in the process.
I personally hope im a better woodworker than a businessman in the end, because im not much of a businessman. I know i wont get better by outsourcing.
I started woodworking to learn to do this type of challenging and rewarding work, and hopefully, HOPEFULLY get paid enough to stay in the business. So far, so good.

Max's point can work well for paint grade work.

Offering what others can't do/don't want to/are smart enough not to commit to can be quite rewarding especially over time, once you are known as "the guy that can"!

[Max Neu]

I have done the method I described above for paint grade,and it worked very well.I don't see why it wouldn't work for stain grade either,just veneer the front and back when you press the 1/2" stack together.

[Joe Calhoon]

I also agree about not outsourcing. Years back when we did a lot of built-ins and casework the advice on woodweb was always to outsource doors, drawers and sometimes finishing. I was always disappointed when we outsourced anything. I always pointed out to the customers and architects how we grain matched everything especially drawer fronts on built ins and other little details we did. Pretty soon the architects especially, would notice mismatched grain on other projects and always favored us on most projects. I just feel like I became a woodworker to build in wood and not put together a bunch of pre made components.
Probably depends on your market area if outsourcing is a good idea.

[Peter Quinn]

My suggestion to outsource was based on simple cope and stick doors, paint grade, no grain involved. There are a few that do curved doors specifically and they tend to be pretty good to survive in that premium market, they have the equipment to do it at least as well as I'm able. As soon as you add a stain grade product equation changes considerably.

i just finished up some work with tight radius curved corners on an otherwise square case, we outsourced the curved 1/4 column substrates to expedite things....the blanks were not perfect over the length, my reveal conditions on two sides were super tight, I fought those blanks every step of the way and wound up wishing I had done it all myself from zero. So it can definetly go either way on curved outsource. We use a curved molding outfit that is impeccable, not many around here bother doing in house any more!

ill shoot you that link tonight Jeff, it's on the home machine.

[Joe Calhoon]

True also Peter. That just got me to thinking one outsource we did that was successful was a curved bar rail from BH Davis. It was better than what we could have made and perfectly grain matched. So, it depends on a lot of things.

[Peter Quinn]

True also Peter. That just got me to thinking one outsource we did that was successful was a curved bar rail from BH Davis. It was better than what we could have made and perfectly grain matched. So, it depends on a lot of things.

Thats the guy we use, he's in state for us. Very good guy.

[Jeff Duncan]

Thanks guys, good to know there are still like-minded individuals who enjoy the figuring out and building aspect of this work! I'm not totally adverse to outsourcing, for instance I don't have a moulder so I have anything too big for the shaper run for me. That large crown in the pic was done out of flexible molding! I originally was planning to make it myself on the shaper which was going to be a real PITA, but the trim guy recommended using flex molding and it worked great! I'll also outsource drawer boxes if I know it's a tight budget on a project. But doors.....yeah I just have a problem outsourcing them. Just about every painted cabinet door I've seen that isn't one of mine has either telegraphing lines at the glue joint, or more common lately, a complete crack at the joint!

I do occasionally get jobs other smaller shops can't do. I made a curved bar several years back for a local restaurant. It wasn't even a complicated project, looking down it was in the shape of a spade from a deck of cards all in a vertical wood grain laminate. But so many small shops seem to only know how to make boxes, anything with curves throws them off their game, so it fell into my lap!

Anyway this project looks to be stain grade....possibly rift oak with a medium brownish stain. I could try building up the doors as multiple laminations.....but I think I'd like to try and mill them first. Assuming we get that far since we're still in the bidding stage. Sometimes even people with money cringe when they see what curved work costs;)

thanks
Jeff

[John T Barker]

Until your last post I was going to suggest this should be a 13 piece door, not a 5 piece. Rails, stiles and panel held in place by the moldings (front and back of the door) inside the rails and stiles. Do this and you don't have to run a groove but it only works if you have a panel that isn't moving (ply or mdf.). It still could be done with a vacuum bag veneer applied to the ply panel.

[Mel Fulks]

Somehow I missed this one. The old guys around here just didn't make grooves on the curved doors. They rabbeted and applied the sticking. And I've just copied them,but it's been panelling more than doors.

[Michael W. Clark]

Hi Jeff,
I know you just asked about the panel groove and sounds like you have a good suggestion or two to try. Would you mind sharing how you plan to do the curved rails and panel? I assume you shape them after they are curved? Are you able to use a feeder with the curve/bow?

[Jeff Duncan]

Hi Michael, in terms of shaping yup your right on. I make a sled....(well I guess more of a cradle since it doesn't move?), to run the parts on. For a curved part like this I'll make a slightly larger curve that the part can fit into. That gets attached to a flat piece of scrap which gets clamped to the shaper. I'll then position the first wheel of the feeder just behind the cutter. Then I start the piece in and once it's into the cutter the feeder takes it. The panel could be done the same way except these will be flat panels so just formed into the necessary curve. Oh and I keep the bed of the cradle waxed well so the parts slide through easily. I've done radiuses parts like this as well up 8' long! (Not for the fight of heart;)) If I end up doing this job I'll try and remember to post a couple pics.

Mel, I like that idea and it might be another way to cheat. I'm going to remember that one.

thanks,
Jeff

[Mel Fulks]

The term the old guys always used was "planting the sticking " ,think I'll google it just out of curiosity since I have no idea if that is just a regional term or an old term now obscure. Keep us posted.

[Kevin Jenness]

I built three 18" radius 5-piece doors some time back with the following process. 3/4" rails laminated in solid wood about 3/32" thick in a vacuum press, grooved on edge on a router table and stub tenoned on a shaper sled with a support wedge. Stiles shaped by hand- I used a wooden body ECE block plane quickly modified to the approximate inside radius, followed by a shaped cabinet scraper on stock that started about 13/16", and also grooved on the router table using a fence with appropriate blocking to match the curve/bevel. (The plane has since been quite handy used as a scrub plane to check color of rough sawn lumber as well as the occasional hollow shaping job.) The convex face of the stiles were shaped with a flat smoothing plane and scraper. The stiles could have been laminated as well, but shaping was quite straightforward. Panels veneered over several layers of 1/8" bending ply. Final assembly using Kantenfix edge clamps.

I like the suggestion of building up the rails/stiles over a laminated panel for painted work. Edgebanding would be another necessary step for clear finish, and getting the" rail/ stile" joints fit and located correctly would be another task. I question whether there would be a significant labor savings at the end of the day.

I always wonder about outsourcing stuff like this. I have had good experience buying paint grade flat doors but never have ordered in for clear finished jobs because the wood selection is important, at least to me. And I enjoy the challenge of curved work. Still, if I could rely on someone to make these doors as well as I know B H Davis does with curved mouldings I would certainly be open to that on some projects.

Actually. now that I look back on it, the doors I made were outsourced. I made them for my colleague up the street, as part of a kitchen he was building. We used to work together quite a lot then, and could rely on each other to achieve a certain level of quality (still can, though he is not working in the trade much now). I guess I would say successful outsourcing in this kind of work is about trust and shared standards.

[Michael W. Clark]

Thank you Jeff,
I like hearing how the pros accomplish different operations. You guys make the difficult sound doable.

P.S. I finally got my shaper and feeder up and going, now we are moving. Hopefully get into some projects late spring or early summer. If you can share any build pictures of the curve doors, that would be great.

Mike