So What Constitutes that "plasticy " look?

[David Pascoe]

I hear the term over and over and I'm constantly bothered by it.


The worst plasticy look I have ever seen comes from certain water based imitation lacquers that have a cold bluish look. I finally come to the point where I have to challenge those of you who describe certain finishes as "plasticy looking". Please give me your definition of what that adjective means. Near as I can tell, it is used for anything that has a high gloss finish. I regard it as a pejorative term undeserved by most finishes it is used to described. Therefore, I ask, does your car look plasticy or did you buy one with a dull matte finish? Please enlighten me as to the meaning of this term. (I'm not picking on you personally, Art, as half the people here use it).

Its one thing if you don't like gloss finishes. Fine, you have a right to your opinion. But to say any gloss looks like crap is to saddle them with that pejorative term "plasticy" and condemn half the finishes out there.

[glenn bradley]

Over-thick sprayed on poly on cheap kitchen cabinets. Epoxy-topped bars done by the owners nephew while home from college. That finish that looks like a skin on top of the wood, not a finish that is in the wood. I am more repelled by the plasticy "feel"; the "look" just reminds me of that sensation. When I see a piece of furniture or wood object that I cannot resist reaching out and running my hand over; that would be the opposite of plasticy in my reality.

[roger wiegand]

Also one of my pet peeves, but at the same time I know it when I see it. It's when the finish appears as a layer apart from the wood, something you noticeably need to look through to see the wood. It's not necessarily a function of gloss, though a thick coat of finish that creates a reflective surface perceptibly above the surface of the wood makes it most obvious.

What I strenuously disagree with is the assignment of the term to certain finishing materials, particularly polyurethane varnish. I honestly think the exact nature of the polymer source makes little difference to the final appearance and the perception of "plasticy". I've used polyurethane finishes for decades and none of my pieces look "plasticy" to me, and I frequently get compliments on the finishes. I do rub them out, and there is a tremendous difference between the gloss straight off the brush (which is not very nice) and the gloss obtained by rubbing out the finish and then polishing it back up to a gloss-- but the same is true with other non-urethane varnishes I've used. I shoot for an appearance of the finish being in the wood as opposed to on the wood, whether it is glossy or matte, and can achieve that appearance as well with polyurethane as with shellac or a more traditional varnish. I will admit that it can be slower and more work to get there with the polyurethane, but I think that is a function of it's desirable properties of toughness and high water resistance. On surfaces that are going to get abused that's a tradeoff I'm happy to make.

[roger wiegand]

I am more repelled by the plasticy "feel"; the "look" just reminds me of that sensation.

YES! (and that may be a large part of my perception of difference between the rubbed out polyurethane and the 'off the brush' finish.)

[John TenEyck]

If you apply enough coats BORG WB poly you'll know what everyone is talking about.

John

[Mike Hollingsworth]

like it's wrapped in Saran Wrap.

[glenn bradley]

like it's wrapped in Saran Wrap.

There it is. Great analogy :).

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

Any gloss finish that's not perfect.
Gloss shows everything, so any flaws draw attention to the finish rather than the piece.

[Art Mann]

I hear the term over and over and I'm constantly bothered by it.

I finally come to the point where I have to challenge those of you who describe certain finishes as "plasticy looking". Please give me your definition of what that adjective means. Near as I can tell, it is used for anything that has a high gloss finish. I regard it as a pejorative term undeserved by most finishes it is used to described. Therefore, I ask, does your car look plasticy or did you buy one with a dull matte finish? Please enlighten me as to the meaning of this term. (I'm not picking on you personally, Art, as half the people here use it).

Its one thing if you don't like gloss finishes. Fine, you have a right to your opinion. But to say any gloss looks like crap is to saddle them with that pejorative term "plasticy" and condemn half the finishes out there.

You have asked a very good question. If you see my other post in context, you will see that I am lamenting the fact that some people regard polyurethane as "plasticy" even though I used it for many years and it doesn't look the least bit artificial. I think the other guys have already explained it pretty well with regard to polyurethane. It can be layered on to the extent that the wood literally looks like it has been dipped in clear molten plastic. That is not a flaw with the material. It is a flaw in how it is used.

The plastic look with water based finish is an entirely different thing. When I first tried water based so called lacquer, every brand of the stuff you could buy had a blue cast to it. It rendered otherwise warm and inviting species as cold and plastic looking. It did not in any way resemble nitrocellulose lacquer when applied. I have read in recent years that some companies have been able to do something about that but not all. I still see projects that people have built that look almost like fake wood because of this coloring. I plan to try the best of the water based materials again sometime but I am set up to spray solvent based lacquer and I like the look and application properties a lot. I also use wipe on and sprayed polyurethane from time to time where I want the most durable finish I can get. I haven't yet tried the catalyzed lacquers now available.

[David Pascoe]

The word "plasticy" has been in circulation so long now that its being taken to mean any high gloss finish in which the grain is completely filled. The use of the term is especially influential on newbies who will end up the rest of their lives regarding gloss finishes as unprofessional and wrong.

What I'm getting at is that the appearance, and opinion of it, is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think Ive ever seen a piece of wood looking like wrapped in Saran Wrap, yet one makes that analogy. A bar top, which we've all seen, with plastic resin poured on it IS plastic -ee, not merely looking so and I don't see any comparison with wood finished with brush or spray. To do so is just not credible. And some bring on the purist view that a good finish is one that looks like no finish whatsoever. That is an opinion based on nothing but personal preference. I could take the opposite view and denigrate the minimalist view as looking unfinished. In fact, both are unfair assessments.

The conclusion here of many seems to be that a finish layered on to the point where the grain is filled and the natural texture of the wood is changed, that is plasticy. A Steinway or Yamaha piano and most musical instruments by that view, are therefore plasticy? No, I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that, but that is the direction your arguments logically lead. Using analogies like "dipped in plastic" are hyperbole and disingenuous.

Face it, what you guys are saying are matters of personal opinion, not something you can substantiate by empirical means. If you don't like one finish or another, fine, but in condemning it, you're stepping on other people's toes who may not hold the same opinion as yours. I'm simply asking you to keep fact and opinion separate. A varnish is no more plasticy than an oil, as both ARE oil.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Of course it's a matter of personal opinion? I don't know how to define a plasticy finish, but I know it when I see it. Try it out on a piece of scrap, if you like the finish then it's a "good look."

[James Tibbetts]

My brain tells me it is a finish that looks thick on wood and is shiny really only on the surface. Like a polished surface suspended above the wood.

[Cody Colston]

I hear the term over and over and I'm constantly bothered by it.

Don't let it bother you, David. That plasticy description is mostly a product of woodworking forums and gets repeated, even by those who have no idea what they are discussing, like a lot of other stuff does. If you like it fine. If you sell your work and the customers like it, that's even better.

Some like a high gloss (plasticy) look. Some like a satin look. Some, like Jim Krenov, preferred no treatment at all or an oil at most for high-use pieces. He was repelled by the look and feel of a well-done lacquer finish. It's all just personal preference.

[Prashun Patel]

I don't agree that any gloss finish looks like plastic. Build up a phenolic varnish like epifanes or Waterlox. these just look clearer than if you build up minwax polyurethane. Minwax poly looks like a soft layer of plastic.

To me.

I think it is more correct to say that poly is not as optically clear as other resin varnishes.

This is all tempered by the quality, thickness, and sheen of your application.

I always think people should do their own experiments with finishes and dyer mine what their own eyes say.

[Allan Speers]

Also one of my pet peeves, but at the same time I know it when I see it. It's when the finish appears as a layer apart from the wood, something you noticeably need to look through to see the wood. It's not necessarily a function of gloss, though a thick coat of finish that creates a reflective surface perceptibly above the surface of the wood makes it most obvious. .


I think that nails it.

I once did a little item in garnett shellac, and I guess I used too many coats, because the end result was so "plasticy" that I stripped it off and re-did it. Interestingly enough, shellac is technically considered a plastic.

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I would add one more parameter: Some clear finishes are not "crystal" clear, but the slightest bit hazy, or something. This is a look I associate with poly, whether correctly or not. Kind of like putting vinyl slipcovers on a sofa.

I assume (once again, possibly not correctly) that acryllic-based finishes would not have this look, while urethane-based finishes might.

[Art Mann]

The word "plasticy" has been in circulation so long now that its being taken to mean any high gloss finish in which the grain is completely filled. The use of the term is especially influential on newbies who will end up the rest of their lives regarding gloss finishes as unprofessional and wrong.

What I'm getting at is that the appearance, and opinion of it, is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think Ive ever seen a piece of wood looking like wrapped in Saran Wrap, yet one makes that analogy. A bar top, which we've all seen, with plastic resin poured on it IS plastic -ee, not merely looking so and I don't see any comparison with wood finished with brush or spray. To do so is just not credible. And some bring on the purist view that a good finish is one that looks like no finish whatsoever. That is an opinion based on nothing but personal preference. I could take the opposite view and denigrate the minimalist view as looking unfinished. In fact, both are unfair assessments.

The conclusion here of many seems to be that a finish layered on to the point where the grain is filled and the natural texture of the wood is changed, that is plasticy. A Steinway or Yamaha piano and most musical instruments by that view, are therefore plasticy? No, I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that, but that is the direction your arguments logically lead. Using analogies like "dipped in plastic" are hyperbole and disingenuous.

Face it, what you guys are saying are matters of personal opinion, not something you can substantiate by empirical means. If you don't like one finish or another, fine, but in condemning it, you're stepping on other people's toes who may not hold the same opinion as yours. I'm simply asking you to keep fact and opinion separate. A varnish is no more plasticy than an oil, as both ARE oil.

What is the point of your post? Are you angry because people don't agree with you? You are quoting words that were not said. You ask a simple question and then start patronizing and insulting people when they give you their opinion. Face it, your opinion is in the minority and using the phrase "face it" does not add any validity to it whatsoever (ironic humor intended). You can not possibly know what sort of finish jobs all the other posters here have seen. You have the audacity to state that their opinions and observations are erroneous and yet all you have to offer is unsupported opinions yourself.

If all you said was that polyurethane often gets a bad rap and is really a worthy finish material in many situations, very few people would disagree with you. I used it exclusively for several years and I put out all sorts of cabinetry and furniture that nobody ever referred to as plasticy. To claim that this same material can not be misused in a way that makes the wood look plastic coated is just silly. Almost everyone I know who has been in the woodworking community for a while has seen it. If you want to take issue with the hyperbole that was used by me and others to make a point, then you should not engage in it either. I really don't see how any further useful information can be gained from this thread.

By the way, Steinway pianos are finished with lacquer. I can't say about Yamaha but polyurethane is not appropriate for every application.