Choosing Faceplate Screws

[Glen Blanchard]

I know that sheetrock screws should never be used to support a faceplate and I have often seen sheet metal screws recommended for this purpose. I have some #12 square drive McFeely screws that I'd like to use. They will each extend 3/4" into the glue block and there are a total of 8 holes in the faceplate. #12 is a pretty beefy screw, but I don't want to sacrifice safety. Will these work or do I need to make a Home Depot run to get some sheet metal screws?

[Geoff Whaling]

Glen the obvious question is - what are you attaching to the face plate with the screws? i.e. how big is the blank? How big is the face plate relative to the turning blank? How long is the blank i.e. a platter or bowl or a HF? Green or wet? Face grain or end grain?

The answers will have an influence on the decision of what type & how many screws to use. 3/4" embedment may well be OK for a reasonable size platter but would not be anywhere near satisfactory into end grain for a HF, but as you say you are using a glue block they are probably OK, though I am not familiar with that brand of screw or what they are made from. I would be cautious as they appear to be the same as "sheet rock" screws.

[Roger Chandler]

I use #14 sheet metal screws most of the time. The length usually is either 1.5" or if a bigger piece, I use 2" length. #12 screws should work for smaller to medium sized blanks. McFeeleys is a good brand, but I prefer sheet metal screws. I find that Phillips heads will strip out, so square drive or hex head are better.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I know that sheetrock screws should never be used to support a faceplate and I have often seen sheet metal screws recommended for this purpose. I have some #12 square drive McFeely screws that I'd like to use. They will each extend 3/4" into the glue block and there are a total of 8 holes in the faceplate. #12 is a pretty beefy screw, but I don't want to sacrifice safety. Will these work or do I need to make a Home Depot run to get some sheet metal screws?

These are the screws I use, they are Robertson straight shaft #10 screws, 1” long holding a 24” blank, going barely 3/4 “ through, and one extra screw for location if I for any reason have to take the faceplate off and reinstall it, I can use these many times over before needing new ones.

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[Brice Rogers]

Glen, these should work fine assuming that you aren't trying to turn something very large that is horrible out of balance. A number 12 screw is fairly beefy.

I did notice that the description said that it was heat treated. I know that drywall screws are also heat treated which tends to make them a little brittle.

I am wondering what the failure mechanism is for drywall or heat treated screws.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

I've been using the same set of both #12 (1-1/4") and #14 (2") square drive stainless steel sheet metal screws for many years. I work a lot with very wet woods - the stainless doesn't seem to degrade over time. Bought them at a marine hardware store about 12 years ago. Doubt that I'll need to replace them in my lifetime and they've held everything I've put them in just fine. I do tend to fill up all the screw holes in whichever faceplate I'm using.

[Dale Winburn]

The best screws I've found are the blue concrete/masonary screws. They are very hard and the teeth are serrated. I use 1/4" size, you can get most any length with phillips head or hex head.

[Glen Blanchard]

Yeah, I guess some additional details would help those answering my question. The faceplate is 3 1/2" in diameter. My plan is to secure the faceplate to a glue block that is 5 3/4" in diameter. This is the manner in which I intended to support a segmented bowl measuring 5 3/4" in depth X 8" in diameter. I'll be following this thread but based on the responses I plan on making a run to Home Depot to get some sheet metal screws.

[Michael Mills]

I've used McFeely square drive screws for almost everything for the past 7-10 years and have never had a failure. A #12 should be plenty strong.
I do use #12 sheet metal just because I find it easier to use a hex drive socket than the smaller square drive for faceplate installation/removal.
Tip If you have a real hardware store rather than a hardware boutique you can buy eight each of various lengths, install the set of eight on strips of foam, and just grab the length you need rather than sorting through a bunch of loose ones each time.

[Dennis Ford]

I think many people worry excessively about screws for a faceplate. I agree that screws designed for concrete are very strong and durable, many of my friends use them. I use #10 X 1" sheet metal screws with faceplates that are 3/8"+ thick (1/2" - 5/8" deep in wood). Sheet metal screws are not particularly strong or hard but they are stronger than the wood and that is good enough.

Obviously longer screws are needed for end-grain and for really large chunks of soft or spalted wood to prevent the screw from pulling out.

[Justin Stephen]

I was in a Woodcraft many years ago buying...heck if I can remember...and remembered that I needed a good set of screws for faceplates since, at the time, I was using deck screws or something like that. I also wanted something that was square drive. I looked around and grabbed a box of Kreg pocket hole screws. I have been using that same box of screws for at least four years now. I would venture to guess that 75% of them have never been used at all, just keep grabbing the ones on top and tossing them back in where I found them. To my knowledge, I have never had to toss more than one or two of them out and I have never had anything remotely like a screw failure.

[Mike Peace]

From my PM3520B manual: "Face plates are drilled for No. 12 screws. (Phillips and square drive screws will hold up better than slotted screws. Sheet metal screws are case hardened with deeper and sharper threads than wood screws."

I think you will be fine.

[Prashun Patel]

I would caution against any of the generic big box store screws. I have driven the heads off the wood screws easily and that makes me doubt all of that quality.

Spax screws hold up well for me. IMHO the biggest strength is gained by going wide and using more screws, not deep. screws are brittle by nature. The trick is to maximize the friction between the face plate and the wood. So use more screws or a wider face plate for that.

Also to the extent possible, use a live center . Especially when bringing that blank into round.

It is also good to use screw widths that are close to the hole size in your face plate.

[John K Jordan]

Chris Ramsey, who turns cowboy hats for a living from big chunks of wood, said he uses sheet metal screws, one in every hole in the faceplate, and supports the work as long as possible with the tailstock.

Lisi Oland (from JCC) turns bowls so big it takes a tractor and hoist to get the blank, several hundred lbs, onto her lathe. She told me she uses sheet metal screws or lag screws, depending. Her place was full of incredible and huge bowls.

This might be fun to watch. She cores with a chain saw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PMEJ7rirso

JKJ

[Thomas Canfield]

I take it these comments are directed to cross grain and not endgrain attachment and not a lot of overhang. I had some problems with 1-1/4" engagement of 8 #12 sheet metal screws using a 6" Oneway faceplate on 18" long endgrain hollow form even with steady rest, and ended up getting some 1/4" x 2" long washer hex head screws to get a better hold. Endgrain definitely requires more thread engagement, either diameter or length, or even both.

[robert baccus]

Blue concrete screws are foolproof, probably overkill. Epoxy coated deck screws are fool proof also. A wider screw thread(fewer threads per inch) is always recommended over fine threaded metal screws in the text books. Squareheads only are allowed in my shop. The heads never fail like phillips heads do.

[robert baccus]

The woodtech textbooks advise the widest or coarsest threads available for wood use, especially end grain. The many fine threads of sheetmetal screws cut up the woodgrains into weak nubbins.

[Bill Boehme]

I use either #12 or #14 SS flat head screws that have a coarse pitch with sharp threads (not sure what they are called other than expensive) and usually fairly long ... 1.5 to 2 inches long because I usually am holding end grain on very large pieces. Phillips heads has worked well because they are tough and don't wallow out. I'm sure that there are equivalent screws with square drive.

[Brice Rogers]

Yeah, I guess some additional details would help those answering my question. The faceplate is 3 1/2" in diameter. My plan is to secure the faceplate to a glue block that is 5 3/4" in diameter. This is the manner in which I intended to support a segmented bowl measuring 5 3/4" in depth X 8" in diameter. I'll be following this thread but based on the responses I plan on making a run to Home Depot to get some sheet metal screws.

For a bowl only 8" in diameter glued to a 5-3/4 glue block, screwed to a 3-1/2" diameter faceplate, you can (most likely) even use drywall screws. There are two types or drywall screws - - fine and coarse thread. The coarse thread is probably better, especially on end grain. I would guess that the only way to get the drywall screws to fail in this application is to run your lathe at full speed and intentionally cause a major major catch. I hate to admit this but I've always used drywall screws. I've never had a failure. But I've had several glue joints break loose. When "hanging" drywall, I've snapped a few screws when driving into bone-dry wood. But that is a torsional failure - - not a shear or extensional failure.

Having said that, when I turn something bigger, I use all eight screws.

[John K Jordan]

Another easy option for something that small is double-sided tape. A friend of mine uses it on even much larger bowls and it holds very well.

[john taliaferro]

Doing that with the lathe running is a really bad idea . My ss screws held nice though .

[Bill Boehme]

Several fellow club members have related how much fun it is to dig a broken drywall screw out of a piece of expensive wood. The drywall screws generally snap off as they are being screwed into the wood or sometimes when being removed although I imagine that they could break if there is a very bad catch, but I feel like that would need to be other factors involved.

[Brice Rogers]

I set the clutch on my drill to keep the torsional forces from getting high enough to snap the screw. If I'm screwing into wet wood, the forces aren't that high anyway but the clutch keeps me from tearing out the screw. If I'm screwing into dry and hard wood, I will often drill a pilot hole the diameter of the minor diameter of the screw and will sometimes even run the screws over a bar of soap to provide some lubrication. Works great.

[Geoff Whaling]

...I will often drill a pilot hole the diameter of the minor diameter of the screw and will sometimes even run the screws over a bar of soap to provide some lubrication. Works great.

Turners should be drilling pilot holes to suit the screw size in any case as it reduces the potential to split dry wood. Another handy tip is to slightly countersink (arris) the holes on the face plate on the blank face. This helps to keep the face plate flush against the wood by allowing any raised timber burr from the screw penetration to fit into the recess formed by the countersink.

Another poster above mentioned matching screw size to suit the holes in face plates which are manufactured to receive a particular screw size. This is also an important detail ignored by many turners and one that can be a cause of what is seemingly unidentifiable sources of vibration. One of the reasons drywall screws fail is that they are brittle due to the manufacturing heat treatment and the bugle head does not match the face plate hole size which permits the blank to rotate slightly in the event of a bad catch increasing the shear force on an already tenuous fixture.

However the largest risk with drywall screws is the bugle / flanged head design and the ease with which the head shears if the screw is over driven. It may not break on install but the shear failure may have been initiated by over driving the screw. This can't be seen by the turner. Any offset of the screw from the face plate hole center means the head will not sit flush which seems to encourage turners to over drive the screw introducing more shear lateral forces as the screw is forced sideways to align with the face plate hole. Reusing dry wall screws increases the risk of failure, so if you are going to continue to use drywall screws treat them as single use only.

Others have mentioned the pitch & coarseness of the screw thread, even the machining quality will influence screw pullout strength etc. Sheet metal threads aren't a good option and neither are deck screws in some timbers.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I only use screws when rough turning green blanks, later when the turning is dry and much lighter, I can use a chuck, and I use the thicker screws #10 that fit the holes of my faceplates, I don’t use flat panhead screws that can squirm around in the hole, but with a taper head that fits the countersunk hole, and yes the faceplate has a bit of a countersink on the wood side for the upwelled wood to sit and not raise the faceplate up off of the wood.

As for pre-drilling, I have done this a few times years ago, before I had a wood chuck, detrimental to the outcome of some bowls that suddenly showed little openings in the bottom of the bowl :o, we have and use a small Honey Locust bowl for bread rolls, it has 3 dark spots in the bottom where I had to drive some walnut pins in to close the openings, number 4 is plugged as well but does only show on the bottom side :), anyway I stopped the pre-drilling and used short screws, they were always the same length, unlike the depth of my drilled holes :eek:.

As I have turned for years my larger pieces on the outboard side of my lathe without a tailstock, I am very particular of the safe and proper mounting of these large pieces, and I have never had a piece come loose or screws break on me.

Good screws can be used over and over till the heads start to wear out, using cheap screws is bad economics as the least and even dangerous as the worse case.

As for using drywall screws, they are often really cheaply made screws, to be used only once and driven into soft material and only compress the fairly soft top layer of the drywall, not clamping a steel plate to a piece of wood with no give.

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[Adam Petersen]

I have a lot less experience than most of you in this, but I just wanted to add my .02 cents, mostly in case someone says, DON'T USE THOSE! I use the Kreg stainless, coarse thread screws. I have them readily available from 1", 1.25", 1.5" and 2" and 2.5". Having them there is nice and them being stainless makes them reusable. The coarse threads hold well for me in green wood. Good discussion!

[Justin Stephen]

I use the Kreg stainless, coarse thread screws. I have them readily available from 1", 1.25", 1.5" and 2" and 2.5". Having them there is nice and them being stainless makes them reusable. The coarse threads hold well for me in green wood. Good discussion!

I was not at home when I typed my first reply. I just checked and these are also the same Kreg screws I use, in 1". I mostly turn 8/4 - 12/4 kiln-dried, as well as some segmented pieces.

[ron david]

the following were mounted with #14 Robertson headed screws. always use #14 for the last 35 years
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/padresag/slideshow/Image9_zpse3e04b33.jpg
this was the bottom piece to this
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/padresag/slideshow/CorporateFruitBowlParallam2_zps234a6c15.jpg

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/padresag/slideshow/Image7_zps9abf5d6a.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/padresag/slideshow/Image9_zps1415d16e.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/padresag/slideshow/mapleburlhtvase2_zps66e17482.jpg
there is some more of it in the link; http://s908.photobucket.com/user/padresag/library/slideshow?sort=3&page=1
on the first one when I was doing the larger top piece the screws did shear off. it was doing about perhaps 150 rpm when it happened. one does not have much time as I just saw the start of a slight wiggle and got out of the way. it was originally 52" dia by 13" thick rough form
It did come to a sudden stop when it hit the wall 10' away. it had a hunk ripped off one edge and put it back on and it cleaned up at 12 1/2 x 48". one must always be prepared to get out of the way especially when it is in it's rough stages. you snooze you lose!
ron

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Nice large size pieces of wood Ron, and yes thick enough screws are needed to safely hold it, especially as you mention at the start up with out of balance rough pieces, and endgrain wood.

I have never felt that a loose stand was a very safe toolrest, is the third picture a BLM burl and wet ?, must have weight a ton, nice to see where the wood shavings did come out through the openings in the wood, very neat work, thanks for posting the screw sizes you do use and even then they can sheer off.

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm a new turner and learned a lot here. I just wanted to add that from my experience with projects around the house I would not recommend stainless steel screws. They are much weaker than steel.

Mike

[ron david]

Nice large size pieces of wood Ron, and yes thick enough screws are needed to safely hold it, especially as you mention at the start up with out of balance rough pieces, and endgrain wood.

I have never felt that a loose stand was a very safe toolrest, is the third picture a BLM burl and wet ?, must have weight a ton, nice to see where the wood shavings did come out through the openings in the wood, very neat work, thanks for posting the screw sizes you do use and even then they can sheer off.
well you keep one foot on the leg of the stand which is closest to you. you have to be aware of what you are doing. yes it is a broad leaf maple burl. it had sat around for awhile I always have quite a bit of it sitting here.
the garage in the following link is the one that the big piece hit. didn't bother it none; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?232608-My-brother-Mike-s-log-house
here is some interesting info on b/l maple; the 'Bigleaf Maple Managers' Handbook of British Columbia' online:http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/docs/mr/mr090.htm (large document - 112 pages)

ron

[Russell Neyman]

The type of screws used to mount faceplates has been a bone of contention at our club for years. One demonstrator became persona non grata in some circles after mounting a blank with ordinary drywall screws. He used eight of them and engaged the tailstock, but a few of the Crusty Old Guard took offense, anyway.

Personally, I prefer square drive steel screws tapered to match the countersink in my faceplates. Through the years, both as a woodturner and a cabinetmaker, I've found stainless to be brittle and prone to breaking. Square (or star/torch) drives strip out less after repeated use.

Bonus comment: Removing a broken screw isn't that hard, and I can think of several methods. One is simply surrounding the offending fastener with a plug cutter and snapping it loose. Or, you can turn away slots on both sides with a gouge, then cut that portion of the remaining ring with a chisel. Vice grips sometimes work, too.

[Wayne Jolly]

My only comment is on the use of screws from Lowes or Home Depot at all. If you want the absolute poorest quality screws you can get, go there. They have been so bad for me that I don't buy screws there anymore. At least not wood screws. I have had far too many of them break off when using a driver, even when driving them into pre-drilled holes they will sometimes break before going in all the way. Driving with a drill is better, but still a lot of failures. I will have to add that this is especially troublesome when the screws have a straight shank portion above the threaded portion. They snap right at the top of the threads. I have purchased wood screws at McFeely's which are MUCH better. Since machine screws typically have no straight shank portion, and seem to be made with a better grade of metal, they are probably OK.

Wayne

[Adam Petersen]

Well I've learned soething. I had no idea that stainless steel was brittle. I've never stripped or broken a Kreg screw so I thought they were the bees knees. I'll keep that in mind.

[Ray Bell]

One other suggestion( hope this hasn't been already said, and I missed it) I always keep a block of paraffin around and drag the screw threads across before driving. I do think this helps driving, and removing faceplates.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

well you keep one foot on the leg of the stand which is closest to you. you have to be aware of what you are doing. yes it is a broad leaf maple burl. it had sat around for awhile I always have quite a bit of it sitting here.
the garage in the following link is the one that the big piece hit. didn't bother it none; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?232608-My-brother-Mike-s-log-house
here is some interesting info on b/l maple; the 'Bigleaf Maple Managers' Handbook of British Columbia' online:http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/docs/mr/mr090.htm (large document - 112 pages)

ron

I have good friends that are also the parents from our daughters in law living in Ladysmith, yes 2 sisters married our 2 sons, we were over just 2 years ago, been a couple of times in BC, but that was the first time to the island.
We wer swimming at on of the beaches there and I wished I had my Chainsaw with me than, as there was a beautiful big curly BLM there :D

Yes if the kids nowadays would do what we did as kids, they’d be all in jail, me growing up right after WWll, there was lots to do with very little, and we learned all kinds of things to get things done, yes one became an all round everything :eek: :D

Quite the house you brother build, my son’s building his family house here, off grit, mostly done but still not finished, but they do live in it, not a Log home, as he designed it himself, being trained and worked in that, both in Europe and here in Canada.
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[ron david]

my brother's house is only about 15 mi from Ladysmith and I am about 40 mi by the way of the crow. most of the time those logs on the beach are tough on saws
ron

[Justin Stephen]

Well I've learned soething. I had no idea that stainless steel was brittle. I've never stripped or broken a Kreg screw so I thought they were the bees knees. I'll keep that in mind.

I certainly plan to keep using mine. They have performed flawlessly for me for years now. That said, I'm not entirely sure the ones I have are stainless steel. The ones I have don't look like the ones on their website that are indicated as stainless, but rather look more like the ones they refer to as "hardened steel". My screws aren't shiny.