New Sander

[Edward Weingarden]

My angle sander just died so I'm looking for a new one. The decisions include air powered ROS vs electric, and non-ROS vs ROS. Question #2 is...if I use air powered, what size compressor is appropriate? Thanks.

[Justin Stephen]

The answers in this thread will get you going while you wait for new replies:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?192771-Air-compressor-requirements-for-power-sanding

I would be interested to try it but my little Makita MAC2400 (which I otherwise adore since it is so quiet) doesn't have the CFM to support it. I have been using the same $40 Neiko electric angle drill for about two years now and I haven't killed it yet.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm on my second Neiko. Hard to beat the price. However, I am thinking seriously about getting a 3" Mirka Ceros. Dust collection's really good on their larger sander (I have one). It also is super light and non fatiguing. I also find ROS better than straight orbital for removing sanding marks.

The problem is, to avail yrself of the dc, you'll need abranet or a source of 3" H&L with holes. All the stuff I find is solid.

[Reed Gray]

I have an old Sioux pneumatic angle drill that I used for a bit. It keeps the compressor running non stop. The random orbit sanders seem to work much better for the higher grits, 220 and above, the seemed to me to be really slow for the coarser grits.

Prashun, you might talk to Vince about abrasives with holes. Not sure if he could do that or not. If it is the standard 6 holes instead of the bunches of little holes, that might be more difficult.

robo hippy

[Bob Bergstrom]

I have two of the new Milwaukee close quarter drills I have dropped an older one and now one of the newer ones and both have blown the variable switches. It sure seems that the new ones don't like too much abuse. On the older one I also was using some 40 grit paper to get some bad tool marks out of the side wall and spun the back bearing which sits in a plastic housing. This caused the armature to start arcing. The cheaper close quarter have plastic gears in them so they won't take heavy use either.

[Edward Weingarden]

Justin:
Good link; thanks.

[George Overpeck]

Couldn't be happier with my metabo sxe 400, although it isn't a stand alone sander since it won't handle tight interior curves and edges very well. But it is exceptional for everything else.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

I've been using the cheapest close quarter drill that Harbor Freight sells. I don't buy many things there, usually more than willing to spend what a well made tool demands, but these things are great. Besides, with the amount of dust that they produce, nothing's going to last forever without constant cleaning. At $29, I spring for the replacement guarantee. I usually get about 2 years out of them until the bearings get noisy, then take it in and get a new one...so I get 4 years from a $39 investment.

[John Keeton]

I never understood using a pneumatic sander. The cost of electricity to run the compressor will far exceed the cost of operating the electric angle drill. Plus, you have the wear and tear on the compressor and the noise unless your compressor is isolated, not to mention the weight and aggravation of the air hose. I much prefer the Neiko. Mine has actually lasted for six years, but in fairness I rarely power sand. I do blow the dust out of it frequently when in use.

[Edward Weingarden]

Thanks to all for the feedback.

[Reed Gray]

I spent maybe half an hour on the phone with Milwaukee talking about the angle drill. Mostly, they are drills, and not grinders, and truth being told, we use them as grinders. The bearings and housing are not made for the abuse we heap on them. The speed range is perfect for bowl sanding. The motor is perfect for up to 3 inch discs, though I can easily see the need for 5 inch discs on larger bowls, which may exceed the motor's capacity. Of course, this would really exceed the already stressed bearings. They need to put the chuck and bearing set up from the screw guns onto the angle/close quarter drills. They didn't seem interested though... Sigh, have to keep searching. Mini hole hog on an articulated arm? Screw gun with plug in from battery to gun so you don't have to hold up the heavy battery, and slightly higher rpm settings? Oh well, I do hope to find a solution eventually...

[Justin Stephen]

I never understood using a pneumatic sander.

I always assumed it was the comfort of using a "power" sander with such a small form factor and weight. Admittedly, it is very comfortable compared to electric drills. But, as you said, it doesn't make a whole lot of financial sense, most especially if you don't already own the compressor needed to power it.

[Edward Weingarden]

Based upon the feedback concerning a pneumatic sander, I've eliminated that option. I picked up an inexpensive close quarter drill at Harbor Freight today. When I tried it, it made so much noise I thought it was going to grind to a halt. Back it goes tomorrow.

[Doug Ladendorf]

On another forum I saw a recommendation for a flexible shaft sander. I have been looking into it and like the idea of a separate motor (1/3 HP or so) and fairly light flexible shaft, chuck and mount. I can't remember the company that makes a version of the shaft (paging John Jordan...). A Fordom set up may not be powerful enough. Still looking for the right solution myself.

Doug

[Reed Gray]

Fordom does make a 1/3 hp motor which they say will drive a 3 inch disc no problem. Only problem I can see with them is the flex shaft, which will need some maintenance, but I have no idea how often. You need a mandrill of some sort to hold the sanding mandrills, and unless it is in a handle of some sort, it might want to run away and be difficult to control.

I am going to head to my local big box store and check this out:

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2410-22

From what I can tell, it has rpm up to about 1500, and since it is a screw gun, it should be able to handle the loads better. Might need to figure out a transformer and cord so I don't have to use the batteries....

robo hippy

[Alan Heffernan]

The Foredom's flex shaft is easy to maintain - just grease it from time to time. I have two of them but don't believe they are great sanding tools. They do make great buffers.

[Edward Weingarden]

Robo Hippy:
The Milwaukee looks interesting however, at 12v I'm concerned that time per use may be somewhat short. Do you have any experience with other cordless tools that run for somewhat longer periods per use? Thanks.

[mike ash]

I messed around with a number of sander options (Pneumatic, Harbor Freight, etc) and personally find that the unit the Vince sells works great for me. The first one lasted 3 years and was beginning to be a bit stubborn so I ordered another one exactly like it. I like the size, trigger, fit in my hand and the expertise I get from Vince when I call to order one!!

[Bob Bergstrom]

Fordom does make a 1/3 hp motor which they say will drive a 3 inch disc no problem. Only problem I can see with them is the flex shaft, which will need some maintenance, but I have no idea how often. You need a mandrill of some sort to hold the sanding mandrills, and unless it is in a handle of some sort, it might want to run away and be difficult to control.

I am going to head to my local big box store and check this out:

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2410-22

From what I can tell, it has rpm up to about 1500, and since it is a screw gun, it should be able to handle the loads better. Might need to figure out a transformer and cord so I don't have to use the batteries....

robo hippy
One of our club member dumped his Quinaver and hooked up a 1/3 hp 3 phase on a frequency drive. He says it works great except you can't spin the flex shaft in reverse.

[Justin Stephen]

I messed around with a number of sander options (Pneumatic, Harbor Freight, etc) and personally find that the unit the Vince sells works great for me. The first one lasted 3 years and was beginning to be a bit stubborn so I ordered another one exactly like it. I like the size, trigger, fit in my hand and the expertise I get from Vince when I call to order one!!

If you are talking about the angle drill he sells, I always assumed that it was identical to the Neiko. It sure looks like it. I own one of the HF models as a backup and do find it much less comfortable to use than the Neiko. One nice thing about the Neiko trigger design is that you can easily put a stopper underneath it to effectively lower the max speed, which is something I do sometimes.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I just picked up Foredoms relatively new angle grinder. It can spin a 2" sanding disc, and I've used it to shape/sand my leaf bowls. I have thought of using it to sand a bowl on the lathe, but have not gotten around to trying that. It's been a while since I've turned a "real" bowl.
Trouble is I just bought a bunch of 3" discs that no fit. And you have to have the Foredom unit already. And I don't think they reccomend using it in reverse. My unit doesn't reverse so I forgot if it can. It's real comfy to use, the grinder itself is light, and really doesn't get hot. Quiet to use.

[Doug Ladendorf]

I found the one I was referring to. It's the Guinevere flex shaft by King Arthur Tools. Has anyone used this?

Guinevere Flexibleshaft With Chuck
King Arthur's Tools
$79.99
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037MCOGQ/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awd_VuRLwbMK5KTPR

[Reed Gray]

Insert Tim the Toolman Taylor protosimian grunts here, I have thought of a flex shaft that could be hooked up to a variable speed mini lathe.....

I did pick up one of the Milwaukee little drills, and will test it out in the next day or two...

robo hippy

[Joe Bradshaw]

I have a Makita 12V drill/driver(FD01W) that I use for sanding. I have gotten almost 4 yrs use out of it. The drill gears are starting to make a lot of noise, but, I have another one waiting in the wings. I also have the HF right angle drill that I have used for about 7 yrs. I also have a couple of the Neikos. I wired a dimmer switch into an extension cord in order to regulate the speed. I tape down the trigger or lock it and control the speed with the dimmer switch. I have only used on my oldest drill. So far, so good. I consider that the drills that we use for sanding are expendable. As has been mentioned, reuse them in so many ways that are wrong and not conductive to long life.
Joe

[Olaf Vogel]

I found the one I was referring to. It's the Guinevere flex shaft by King Arthur Tools. Has anyone used this?

Guinevere Flexibleshaft With Chuck
King Arthur's Tools
$79.99
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037MCOGQ/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awd_VuRLwbMK5KTPR

Hey Doug

That might have been me on the other forum.
I've got a set up like in this link, its from Lee Valley, but likely identical.

Overall, pretty good for many tasks. Hook it up to a decent motor, like a 1/2 hp furnace motor, or similar.
It will work well for about 3" disks, very quiet, run all day, and the business end is light.

One downside is that its straight in, so its hard on the wrist for resisting torque.
Ideally, it should be 90 d or at least 45 d.

My favorite current solution is
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/accessories/fastening/49-22-8510
Connected to the Guinevere Flexibleshaft.

You need to cover up the chuck part.

For larger stuff:
I've tried angle drills. Most overheated quickly, where too slow and heavy. My Makita didn't hack it at all.
Angle grinders are too fast.
As are most air tools. A few that run at lower speeds. But are pricey.
And require a large compressor / tank, which I'm not investing in right now.

The best I've found, so far, is a car polisher/buffer. Adjustable speed, slower than a grinder (600 - 3000 rpm), lots of torque, handles up to a 7" disk.
Great for heavy sanding, then I swap to a 5" disk, with soft backing.

The downside is physical effort. My hand got so tired I couldn't hold the trigger. So I cracked it open, hardwired the switch to on, full time. Set up a plug with a switch. So flip the switch and the buffer runs.

And weight. About 9 lbs. After a few hours its heavy. I put a hook in the ceiling, bungee cord and hooked it too the machine. No weight, just need to direct it.
Oh, and it can create CLOUDS!!! of dust. So the dust vac needs to be very good.

The only sander I've liked is a Port Cable 5" random.
http://www.portercable.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=21423


I'm still looking for a good solutions based on industrial flex shaft machines.
New ones are pricey!!! A basic set is $2500, up to $6000.
Walker Turner made machines up until the 60's, for a few hundred, but hard to find.

Hope that helps. Its the entire summary of my journey.

:)

Olaf

[Doug Ladendorf]

That's right Olaf, thanks. Weren't you picking up a vintage flex shaft set up for your big stuff? There was recently a nice Sioux on the auction site that I thought looked promising. Do you find the Milwaukee attachment robust enough?

Doug

[Vince Welch]

Hi Edward,
I am late to the party...lol. So many folks call me and discuss options for sanding and like you find that pneumatic sanding can be expensive esp. needing a 60 gallon compressor to run a ROS sander. Most are power sanding using a drill of some type and there are many drills out there to choose from. I may not have tried them all but I have tried allot of different units out there. HF unit was inexpensive but I did not have much luck with it. I got some Neiko drills and they did not last anytime. Today I am using a an older Milwaukee that is still going strong as well as a unit that I have offered for years. These units are just the best angle drills I have been able to find...period! The trick is NOT to get these units heated and I blow the dust out of my unit They are drills and not sanders...right! Another option is some folks go with a inertia sander and these units work well. They are not as aggressive as power sanding but do work well. If I can help you or answer questions please let me know 877.284.8969. Vince

[Larry Matchett]

I have been using the angle drill for a few years now. Works great. https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/corded/0370-20

[Reed Gray]

Missed your post Edward.... I have no idea about how long it will go before it needs to be charged. I am figuring that if it works, I will figure out some sort of transformer and cord that I can plug directly into the wall. Shouldn't be too difficult as I have a good tool repair place in town that is used to me. I was doing some video shoots this week, and hope to sand some next week.

robo hippy

[Reed Gray]

I am not sure of the exact type of bearings in these drills, but if they are double sealed, then blowing out should not be a big problem. It does help keep the motor clean, and these are not TESC (totally closed self cooling) motors. I have worn out the plastic housing for the drills a few times as well as numerous sets of bearings and brushes. If you use only 2 inch discs, then you will get a lot longer life out of them. Same if you use low speeds. The low speed idea was from Vince, which I started using. At most maybe 600 to 800. The idea is that you need traction, and if you are going too fast, the abrasives don't have a chance to dig in and really cut, kind of like a dragster burning out its wheels. With the finer grits, even slower. The other thing that wears them out is pushing too hard. Only the weight of the drill is needed, and if you are bogging down the motor, this puts more side ways pressure on the bearings.

robo hippy

[Justin Stephen]

I have been using the angle drill for a few years now. Works great. https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/corded/0370-20

Undoubtedly it is a high-quality product. I own a few Milwaukee tools and am happy with all of them. I love my 6955-20 sliding compound miter saw.

The reason I didn't get one is the lack of a paddle trigger (which I think is better for speed control) and can also easily accommodate a home made stop (usually a small strip of wood taped underneath the trigger in my case) and the fact that it costs 3 1/2 times as much as the Neiko. It's also 1/2 lb heavier, for what that's worth.

[Reed Gray]

Before I started slow speed sanding, I would get maybe 300 plus bowls before the bearings needed to be changed. After slow speed sanding, it was over 400. The old Milwaukee drills were made by Sioux tools, and I think the newer ones with the rubber cover over the trigger is now made by Milwaukee.

robo hippy

[Reed Gray]

Well, I tried it, and it has perfect speed range and torque. Also, it is really light weight. The battery life is way too short for me. They do have a heavier model with a different battery that lasts '3 times longer', but it is a lot heavier, but the batteries have a 3 year warranty. The batteries cost $70+. So half way there. Now, I need to call Milwaukee and see if they can do a corded version some way or maybe my tool repair guy can. Maybe some Creekers know how to do it.

robo hippy

[Bob Bergstrom]

Undoubtedly it is a high-quality product. I own a few Milwaukee tools and am happy with all of them. I love my 6955-20 sliding compound miter saw.
Vail
The reason I didn't get one is the lack of a paddle trigger (which I think is better for speed control) and can also easily accommodate a home made stop (usually a small strip of wood taped underneath the trigger in my case) and the fact that it costs 3 1/2 times as much as the Neiko. It's also 1/2 lb heavier, for what that's worth.


Dont drop one of the newer ones, the micro switch quites working totally. I don't know if dust gets in or something shorts out. I've tried blowing the switch with air after disassembling it to no avail.

[Edward Weingarden]

Update - while looking at angle drills in Home Depot, I came upon a cordless Drill/Driver and Impact Driver set made by Rigid. They are smaller in size than the 18v drill/drivers, and lighter as they are powered by 12v Li-Ion batteries. In an earlier post I expressed concern about 12v vs 18v and time of use before needing to charge the batteries. After doing some research I found that it is not the battery voltage that determines run time, but the Watt-Hours (if I understand it correctly). The batteries are rated by Amp-Hours (Ah) and if you multiply Ah x Volts, you get Wh. The Rigid set comes with one 2Ah and one 4Ah batteries. Thus, they have 24 Wh and 48 Wh. When I looked at those drill/drivers with 18v batteries, many of them are rated at 1.5 Ah and therefore 27 Wh. Thus, with all variables being equal, the 12v battery with 2 Ah will give a similar run time as the 18v battery, and the 4 Ah battery will deliver almost twice the run time as the 18v battery.

I have had the set for about two weeks now so my evaluation is still somewhat limited. I can't give a total run time for the 2 Ah vs 4 Ah batteries because I've sanded different woods (some more dense than others), different size pieces, and I don't sand a piece from start to finish without stopping from time to time. However, the 4 Ah battery clearly provides significant more run time. The drill/driver is variable speed, and has 2 speed sets. I have never used an impact driver before so I have nothing to compare it to, but it has no problem driving 1.5" screws into somewhat dense wood when mounting a face plate, without a problem; I'm very pleased with how it functions. It takes about 40 min to recharge the batteries. The set sells for $120 and comes with a 3 year warranty and a lifetime service agreement. The service agreement provides for free service and replacement parts, including batteries, for the life of the units. Disclaimer - I have no affiliation or financial interest in Home Depot or Rigid. It was the service agreement that said I've got to take this set home and try them; I've got 90 days to return it if I'm not satisfied. So that's what I've decided upon for the moment; I need to use them more before deciding that they're a keeper. Thanks for all the feedback that people have provided.

[John K Jordan]

You may be interested in this: At the TN Woodturning Symposium this weekend, demonstrator Rudy Lopez highly recommended the Grex pneumatic random orbital sander for woodturning. He said he gets better results with it than with a rotating sander for turned work. This makes sense - maybe someone does but I don't know anyone who uses a hand-held rotating sander for fine furniture making.

http://www.amazon.com/AOS368-2-Inch-105-Degree-Random-Orbital/dp/B000HFPDJQ/ref=sr_1_1

He did mention that it is not used like a rotating power sander. A random orbital sander needs to be placed in contact with the work before pulling the trigger. Also, it is NOT used with the work spinning, but with the lathe off.

Here is Rudy's web site if anyone is interested.
http://rudolphlopez.com/

JKJ

[Bob Coates]

Edward,
Make sure you register the drill and batteries with Rigid, otherwise you will NOT HAVE THE lifetime service. When I first got mine, I had to go to a service center to get battery, but now HD will do the service. You will need to take all the paper work and all parts with you. You will then get battery(s) mailed to you.
Hard to beat with lifetime batteries.
Bob

[Reed Gray]

Well, I will contact Rudy. Main reason is that the random orbit sanders I have seen, all seem to do fine with the polishing grits, 220 and above, but are really slow at the coarser grits, 80 up to 220. Perhaps more experimentation is needed.

robo hippy

[hu lowery]

Bill Neddow went on a pretty extensive R&D project to try to speed up sanding. His final deal was the 4.5 inch side grinder. He added an extension to the shaft to give it a little reach and adapt to the various size wheels and the key to using a side grinder, he ran it through one of the router speed controls.

I bought some half decent grinders and verified they ran just fine through the router controllers but for one reason or another I got sidetracked and never got back to that project. Harbor Fright now offers a 4.5" grinder with speed control build in, pretty sure one is a dial set unit. Haven't looked at them but might be worth a try. They should have the design and bearings to withstand sanding although I grant that the extension is adding a load the designers didn't consider.

Hu

[Edward Weingarden]

Bob - when reading reviews of the Rigid set, there were a number of commentaries/complaints about registering for the warranty. I have completed the on-line registration and received an email from Rigid confirming the registration. Apparently it takes a few weeks for Rigid to confirm the serial numbers of each of the 5 pieces in the set (2 batteries, 1 drill, 1 impact driver, and 1 charger), and confirm the date and place of purchase (lifetime warranty may only apply to those units purchased at Home Depot) via data on the receipt. Once everything is confirmed, then a warranty number is issued. Apparently, service or parts will not be covered unless that warranty number has been issued. I'm still awaiting my warranty number, but it's only been about 2 weeks.

[Reed Gray]

I did check out angle grinders, but most of them have speeds over 10,000 rpm, which is way too fast for me, and some of them were variable speed. Blessings or curses to Vince Welch who convinced me that slower speeds work better for sanding... In the time I have switched to sanding at no more than about 600 rpm, the abrasives cut way more efficiently. My theory is that at the lower speeds, you get more traction/cutting action, and if you are cutting at high speeds, well, you throw out a lot of dust, but don't go as fast. I was chatting with Dave Schweitzer at D Way, and he uses an angle drill with 5 or 6 inch discs. That cuts even faster, probably due to more abrasive surface on the wood. No idea how long the bearings last...

robo hippy

[Michael Schneider]

John,

At the bottom of the grex page on amazon was a small electric metabo. Has anyone used one of these? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004YBX5/ref=psdc_552888_t1_B000HFPDJQ

I have a large compressor, but it is noisy, and takes some time to get ready for use.

Thanks
Michael

[John K Jordan]

I see that. Based on experience with my bench grinder, you probably can't go wrong with anything made by Metabo! The size of the disk is a bit too big for my use. I'm debating ordering the 2" Grex. I do have air piped through the shop with the big compressor in a sound-insulated room so the Grex might work for me. If I get one I'll try to remember to report my impressions.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

Olaf, that is one version I had envisioned, but never got around to making. It would run very well off of a mini lathe with variable speed. Where did you get it?

robo hippy

[Brian Kent]

I am very happy with the performance - smoothness and quietness - of Harbor Freight's Chicago Variable Speed Electric Close Quarters Drill with Keyless Chuck. I use it on a very slow speed and it is easy to hold the trigger at the low speed. $39.99.

[Olaf Vogel]

I finally tried out my "new" sander, from the 50's, its and industrial version of a Dremel / Foredom.
It cleaned up in about 20 min and works great. With 4" discs on it, no problem

330951

Its hooked to a 1 hp, 3ph motor.
Quite, torquey, can run all day and light


Also ordered this one, so I can change the angle up to 90d.
330950

so far I'm happy

[Olaf Vogel]

Hey Reed

Seems my response got out of order somehow and I can't even find it.

Anyway, these flex shaft tools are all old and seem to have fallen out of fashion with the advent of small light power tools.
Nevertheless, I think they offer some advantages: low weight, lots of torque, quiet, don't heat up, and potentially variable speed.

Currently I'm running mine at 1750 rpm's.

ALL of the newer ones I've found are either air powered (too fast IMO) or from another industry.
Many are for aircraft maintenance. They have some REALLY cool stuff, but very expensive., possibly fantastic quality.

Newer domestic stuff is made by Terco or Suhner, sold as kits. Both are ~$3k ++++
There's a KTS fish scaler - similar idea.
There are some interesting manufactures still in India (http://4.imimg.com/data4/YG/QE/MY-3964608/metal-shaft-and-right-angle-flexible-shaft-machine-500x500.jpg) but seems like you need to order direct, which is a PITA. And they are still not cheap - its industrial grade stuff.

I got mine off eBay, old, used.
There's a few manufacturers to look for.

Walker Turner (http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=10689) had a large offering in the 50-60's. I think all theirs are straight, no change of angle at the head.
And you don't need the whole machine, just the shaft and a motor of your choice. all long defunct, burt some are still around.
I think these were made by Elwood Wyco.

More recent - Kett Tools. Thats the second one I posted. The flex shaft stuff is no longer in production, so used parts are the only option.
I'm waiting for that to arrive and will try some 3-6" discs on it.

They are still in business and do still offer a small "drill saw", that maybe could be changed over to a sander. Haven't tried it.

Zephyr makes a small one that looks interesting, but I haven't tried it either. Looks like it should be good for 2-3" discs. Might be good for tight inside spots.

Miller Falls - made a lot of tools, a few of which are right angle attachments to flex shaft machines. Their 90d attachments look really tough. I have one of their shafts and its excellent.

There are few German variants I picked up at a garage sale locally for $30 but I don't have the names.
That started my research, which obviously took me all over the map...

Don't confuse these units with Dremel or Foredom. Same idea, but MUCH beefier, excellent quality.
These will drive a 6" grind stone all day long. Or....well....as long as your arms hold out.
:)

[George Overpeck]

Michael - that's the Metabo that I own, I bought it based on some other reviews on sawmill creek. I really like it. The foam backing pads need replacement fairly often as they soften up and can't transfer force, also I've only seen pads in 3 inch while the sander head is 3.25 or so. Past that it's light, sturdy and hasn't hiccuped on me in the last year of heavy use. It does a great combination of removing wood and leaving a good surface. Since I've started using it I use almost only 120 and 240 with it, 120 on very spalted end grain with high tear out and 240 for the finish. Stepping up to 300 plus doesn't seem to improve the surface amazingly, although it might with harder woods.