Jet Jointer/Planer combo versus Hammer A3 31

[Chad Wallace]

Hello fellow woodworkers!

I am in need of some good advice please! I need to upgrade my jointer and planer in the shop and would like to go with the JP combo to save on some room. I have narrowed it down to the Jet and Hammer 12" combo. Is the Hammer worth the extra money for a hobby woodworker's shop?

Thanks in advance!
Chad

[mreza Salav]

This very question is asked several times and if you dig up you can find the threads (one very recently).
I have seen some complains about Jet but I have not read/seen any complain about Hammer. There are many owners of both machines here and I think the conclusion of the those threads was you won't regret the extra money you spend on Hammer.
I have never had a regret of getting the better tool and usually the $$$ pain is long one once you start using it.

[Prashun Patel]

I was contemplating the same thing. I ended up with the Hammer. I upgraded to the spiral head and aluminum depth gauge. If you go Hammer, and you really can't afford the spiral, then at LEAST get the depth gauge. It's accurate and really has made the biggest improvement in my planing.

I also read some minor complaints with the Jet, and even though it was quite a bit cheaper than the Hammer, chose the Hammer.

I am a hobbyist. The Hammer JP is a joy to work with and I think it was well worth the investment for me.

[Dick Mahany]

I bought the original Jet JJP 12 with straight knives, before the spiral cutter head version was available. I never had any problems with it and used it extensively. I recently downsized my large shop and sold it. That was a mistake as I really miss it and would buy it again. I do not have any experience with the Hammer units, but have seen many great reviews.

[Jim Becker]

My opinion is that the Euro machines generally are better quality and better designed. While I'm not familiar with the Hammer 12" that you mention (I have a MiniMax FS350), Hammer is Felder's value brand and Felder is one of the movers and shakers in the industry. While I have nothing against Jet, having owned many of their machines myself, the Hammer is very much a step up and if you can afford the difference in cost, over time, you'll benefit from it. Again, IMHO...

[Lester Sak]

I can't speak to the Jet, but I have a Hammer A3 26 with the spiral head and depth gauge and love it. It was hard for me to justify as this is only a hobby, but once the money is spent the cost is soon forgotten, but the benefits of a great tool continue to pay off. Definitely worth the money I spent.

[Al Bacon]

I have the Jet JJP-12 HH and also have never had a problem with it. I am in the process of milling curly maple. Taking only 1/32" cuts it is producing very smooth surfaces with no tear out. I thin k, if you have the money and will be using the machine a lot, the Hammer would be a fine machine. If your money is tight or it will be used only occasionally the Jet will serve you well.

Al

[Chad Wallace]

Thank you guys very much for all your input here! Greatly appreciated! One other thing, you guys all agree the spiral upgrade versus the knives is definitely worth the money?

Thanks again,
Chad

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I have the Hammer A3-31 with the Silentpower cutter head. No experience with Jet machine of this type. I don't know how Hammer's standard cutter head perform, but I like the quality of the spiral head. Very little sanding is needed afterward. After using a lunch-box planer with three knives cutter head, I like the performance of the spiral head better. It's more quiet. Chips are smaller. Unsure about this but Hammer/Felder claims that the cost of running the spiral head is less in the long run (i.e. changing one (or a few) small cutters vs. one long cutter blade). So, yeah, get the Hammer with the spiral head.

Get the hand wheel with the dial indicator. I didn't get that initially. It's a nice option to have. There is something about the metric dial indicator works better than the imperial one. Check with your sale rep or Felder engineer to verify this.

[Ben Rivel]

Got the Hammer A3-31 on my list, saving up has begun. From my research it is by far the best in its class and for its cost.

[Prashun Patel]

Ben, put the minimax fs30 on your list too. My research suggested that was a contender too.

[Chad Wallace]

Ben, put the minimax fs30 on your list too. My research suggested that was a contender too.

Prashun, Does the minimax come with the spiral butterhead or just the tersa blades?

[Prashun Patel]

Rach out to erik loza. He can tell you more. There are some benefits to the tersa head.

And the soiral cutterhead produces a nice teroutfree surface, but it definitely requires sanding.

[Jim Becker]

Tersa on the MiniMax, Chad...which I've been very pleased with over the years I've been using them. I haven't felt the need for a spiral head.

[Chad Wallace]

Tersa on the MiniMax, Chad...which I've been very pleased with over the years I've been using them. I haven't felt the need for a spiral head.

Thanks for all your help! Jim, is it pretty easy to change out the knives on the Tersa and how is the cost compared to the carbide cutters?

[Susumu Mori]

When I bought my A331 last year, I cross-shopped with Minimax. Back then, Minimax didn't have helical cutters. I got an impression that they think it was more for marketing than truly added benefits for the price. They may be right. My take about Minimax is their introductory lines sit between Hammer and Felder; they tend to be more heavily built with thicker and heavier materials, but don't have Felder-ish motorized controls. Their price sit in between too. More choice is always good!

I went with Hammer/Felder simply because I live near their HQ, which gives many benefits.

[Prashun Patel]

Susumu's impressions were the same as mine. For me, hammer was having a good sale in the summer that also made it a tad more economical than the minimax.

also the spiral cutter was reported to be quieter than a straight knife cutter head. I didnt try the fs30, but the hammer a331 is quieter than my previous planer both loaded and unloaded.

[Brian Hood]

I have the Hammer C3-31, which is the A3-31 with a table saw and shaper/router attached to it, I just have the straight blades. I've never experienced the spiral cutters but don't see how they could produce a nicer finish than the straight cutters I have, it's like silk. Not trying to talk you out of them, just saying I would understand the bennefits against the costs. I know they are quieter but I don't know the cost adder.

[Brad Shipton]

I know nothing of the Jet, but I assume it has a similar head diameter (80mm). The need for a spiral compared to a straight blade depends a lot on the type of woods you are cutting. When I first got my Hammer A3 I had no problems with the straight blades when working with maple, cherry, birch or other domestic species. That changed when I started working with a large quantity of Jatoba. I was able to reduce the tearout quite a lot when I changed the head to a spiral. I found changing the blades with the original straight blades to be quicker than the spiral. The bigger Felders and SCM machines have 120mm diameter heads with straight blades and very few ever talk of tearout with the increased diameter and machine mass.

[Joel Daros]

Tersa on the MiniMax, Chad...which I've been very pleased with over the years I've been using them. I haven't felt the need for a spiral head.


+1 for Minimax and Tersa Knives.
Tersa cutting quality is terrific, a little sanding and your project is finished. The easy change and always accurate blades is another big advantaged.

[Steve Catts]

I am in the planning stages of buying the MiniMax or hammer 12" machines. I have thought about the Jet, but a close look at Craiglist or Ebay shows numerous of the Jet J/P for sell. This tells me something about how purchasers have felt about their Jet purchases. I doubt that ther e are glaring problems, but something is driving purchasers to "buy-up" to better machines or they have just not been satisfied. Purchase of the Hammer or Minimax will likely never need to be replaced on either account.

[Prashun Patel]

Steve,
Be sure you're looking on CL for the Jet JJP 12 or JJP12HH. Jet makes smaller benchtop 'jointer planers' that are more likely to be purchased casually and resold quickly.

[Jim Becker]

Changing Tersa knives is probably about the easiest cutter change on the planet...knock the wedges/gibs loose with the end of a screwdriver, line up the knife with the hole in the structure that lets them pass through...push them out carefully so you don't cut yourself. Then either turn them over and reinsert or replace as appropriate. Centrifugal force re-sets the wedges/gibs when you turn the machine on after adjusting the knives. There are different formulas of the knives available, too. Further, if, for some reason you get a nick...just move one knife over a hair and your nick is gone.

I'm sure that in some respects one can potentially get a slightly better surface from a spiral cutter head and the spiral tends to be quieter, but Tersa is a pretty convenient format. You could start with Tersa and if your heart still desires spiral, there are likely retrofits available from the usual guilty parties. :)

[Silas Smith]

I'm a Jet JJP12HH owner and have been nothing but pleased with it. For me, the extra for the Hammer was better spent on another tool upgrade. I'm not sure what the Hammer could offer other than higher resale value and it matches my Felder bandsaw better. The Jet had a slew of problems with the first ones they introduced, but I wonder if they have worked out some of the problems. Working in the manufacturing world, almost all processes are in continous improvement mode. I've had mine for about 2 years now and have had no issues with it other than a quick re-tightening of the tension belt.

With the 15% off special, the Hammer was almost $1500 more and that is a Domino XL or something equivelent.

[Thomas L. Miller]

Chad,
I have the A3-31. I upgraded from a 6" jointer and a Dewalt 735 lunchbox planer. I'm a hobby woodworker as well. I love the Hammer. I also love the metric depth dial. It makes repeatability very easy as far as planing goes. One thing you need to be sure you have is GOOD dust collection. European machines require it. With it, everything is just so easy with the Hammer. The 4HP motor is really smooth.
Tom

[Curt Harms]

Steve,
Be sure you're looking on CL for the Jet JJP 12 or JJP12HH. Jet makes smaller benchtop 'jointer planers' that are more likely to be purchased casually and resold quickly.


+1 to that. The little benchtop Jets are pretty light duty, they weight something like 70-80 lbs. The Jet JJP-12 weights around 500 lbs.

[Richard Shaefer]

+1 for Minimax and Tersa Knives.
Tersa cutting quality is terrific, a little sanding and your project is finished. The easy change and always accurate blades is another big advantaged.

I know it's been said before, but the Hammer has the quick change knives as well, and they are also available in different grades of steel and are double edged. Oddly (for a German maker) the blades are dirt cheap. The HSS blades for my A3-26 are $33 for a set. For reference, that's $4 more than what I was paying for replacement blades in my Rigid lunchbox planer.

[Chad Wallace]

I really appreciate all your guy's input on this thread! I went ahead and bit the bullet today and ordered the A3-31 with the spiral cutter block! I am still trying to get my butt to relax a little as it is still pretty puckered up from letting go of that money, but I'm sure after I run that first board through, it will be just fine! Lol

thanks again guys,
Chad

[Frank Martin]

I really appreciate all your guy's input on this thread! I went ahead and bit the bullet today and ordered the A3-31 with the spiral cutter block! I am still trying to get my butt to relax a little as it is still pretty puckered up from letting go of that money, but I'm sure after I run that first board through, it will be just fine! Lol

thanks again guys,
Chad
Congrats!

I have never even seen the Hammer machine as I have a Minimax combo. Before that I had a Grizzly J/P. I can tell confidently that euro machines are in a different league. I am sure you will really like the Hammer. Enjoy it in good times.

[Prashun Patel]

Here's some possibly useful information on housebreaking your new puppy.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235004-Please-Hammer-don-t-hurt-em-(A3-31-set-up)/page4

[Chad Wallace]

Here's some possibly useful information on housebreaking your new puppy.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235004-Please-Hammer-don-t-hurt-em-(A3-31-set-up)/page4


What do you think about this set up Prashun? Is your Hammer mobile?

Thanks,

[Prashun Patel]

I think the guy who started that thread is a genius,

[Jim Becker]

Congrats on your J/P purchase! You're going to enjoy having that machine in your shop.

[Chad Wallace]

Thanks Jim! I appreciate all your honesty and input sir!

[Scott E Johnson]

Hey Chad -Be prepared for the odd size (metric) dust collection hookup! I found that even the Hammer adapter was not great, and you will need serious collection capacity! That however was the only issue I had at all with my straight-knife A3-31. It is a joy to use and the performance is impeccable. Spiral head will be even better.

[Jim Becker]

Rubber Fernco soil pipe adapters from the home center are the solution to the metric dust collection ports. :)

[Brian Thompson]

I was also in the market for a J/P, and looked at both the Hammer and the Jet. That's when I discovered that the Jet JJP-12HH is the same machine as the Rikon 25-210H, except for a few small features that are in the Rikon's advantage (roller supports on the planer bed, and a good mobile base solution) that the Jet doesn't offer (the Hammer also offers a good mobile base solution). The Rikon is also about $500 cheaper than the Jet.
So, then my comparison became between the Rikon and the Hammer. And I personally couldn't justify the price difference between the Rikon and the Hammer, especially when comparing both with the helical cutterhead. Sure, if cost had been no object, I would have gone with the Hammer. But I'm happy with the Rikon and the extra $1900 I have left over.

[Dick Mahany]

[QUOTE=Brian Thompson;2517821]I was also in the market for a J/P, and looked at both the Hammer and the Jet. That's when I discovered that the Jet JJP-12HH is the same machine as the Rikon 25-210H, except for a few small features that are in the Rikon's advantage ..."

Thanks for that info. I had an original Jet JJP12 non-HH. Zero problems in 8 years and the straight knives could be sharpened to a razor edge. I regrettably sold it as I was down sizing. The Rikon is nearly identical to it with a few added features and I'm seriously thinking of going that way as I can't justify the more expensive Hammer for my needs as I have replaced my table saw with a Festool track system, but need a combo J/P machine.

[Art Mann]

I have read quotes like this one countless times but nobody has ever explained what the European machines will do that the equivalent Chinese ones like Grizzly and Jet won't do. Somebody mentioned that the price difference is approximately the same as a Festool Domino. That is a very meaningful comparison for someone in my situation who has a lot of upgrades to do. I would really like to know the answer to that question.


Congrats!

I have never even seen the Hammer machine as I have a Minimax combo. Before that I had a Grizzly J/P. I can tell confidently that euro machines are in a different league. I am sure you will really like the Hammer. Enjoy it in good times.

[Erik Loza]

...nobody has ever explained what the European machines will do that the equivalent Chinese ones... won't do...

The real answers? Three primary things, in my experience.

1.) Longevity: Look at the number of members here on SMC who have had their Minimax jointer/planers for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, etc. and still running strong.

2.) Quality control: Your odds of getting a lemon from a legit European manufacturer are practically non-existent. Obviously, I can't speak for any other manufacturer but that's not really something I ever see. Sure, I get freight damage, the occasional component that needs replacing and that sort of thing (as we all do) but rare, very rare is the case where the whole machine is unusable and needs to be sent back.

3.) Resale value: Euro machines hold their value. For example, try to find a used MM16 bandsaw. And if you do, what did it sell for? I make the case to prospective owners that it us actually cheaper to buy an Italian machine than a Chaiwanese one. Suppose you could get a new Italian jointer/planer for $4K and a Chaiwanese one for $2K. Move ahead 5 years and you decide you need a bigger machine, so you go to sell both. You could probably get half what you invested for the Italian machine. The Chaiwanese one? A few hundred bucks, maybe? Sure, the initial price was higher but we're assuming you didn't just purchase this to use it and throw it away. So, what did it cost you to actually own the Italian machine versus the Asian unit after a few years? If you got even half what you paid when you sold the Italian machine, that's like getting to use it for free, right? The Asian machine will be an almost total loss on the used hobby market, so which was the money better spent?

Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik

[Sean Troy]

The A3 26 is my dream machine someday for my small shop. I would order one now if the promotional price came with the silent cutter head and shipping. Medical bills always seem to keep upgrades to my shop at arms length. From all the reviews, Hammer does seem like a one time buy for a persons shop with how long they last.

[Richard Shaefer]

I have read quotes like this one countless times but nobody has ever explained what the European machines will do that the equivalent Chinese ones like Grizzly and Jet won't do. Somebody mentioned that the price difference is approximately the same as a Festool Domino. That is a very meaningful comparison for someone in my situation who has a lot of upgrades to do. I would really like to know the answer to that question.


I have Grizzly, Hammer, SawStop, and sundry other tools in the shop varying from Ryobi to Festool and everything in between.

I will add that I got the Hammer on 30% off sale, so the price difference was more around the $200-$300 dollar range than the $1200-$1500 range when I made my purchase, else I'd have gone elsewhere, too.

I do believe that you get what you pay for. The Hammer and the Festool stuff do their work and everything just works. The best designs are the ones that escape your attention. the German tool makers will use a machined billet or cast part where Grizzly will use a rough casting or a piece of bent/formed sheet metal. You don't notice these things going wrong until they go wrong. I've had good performance from my big Grizzly 17" band saw, but there have a been a few times where I've had to make a few corrections with a 5 lb hammer, of there have been times where I've been working with the tool and struck with a "what the hell were they thinking when they designed this!?!" epiphany, and a band saw is still a relatively simple tool. The end of it is that, I wouldn't trust Grizzly to make something as complex as a J/P combo with as many moving parts as they have, but I know some have been happy with them. I certainly wouldn't trust them to make something as infomercial complex as a Domino, but somehow the Germans got that insane contraption to keep working in an accurate and durable manner.

[Art Mann]

Thank you for that explanation. I noticed you didn't mention capability or performance. I can compromise on certain things but not capability.

The issues you mentioned are true but not too worrisome for me. I think it is highly improbable that I will wear out any model, European or Chinese, given my age and use profile. Resale value isn't too important either because I tend to keep equipment for decades. As far as size/capacity requirements, I need less than I used to because of a change in emphasis. If I buy a J/P and then decide that type of equipment is not for me, I will likely lose less money in six months time than if I bought a more expensive machine.

Quality control is an issue with some Chinese made equipment. I am certainly taking more of a chance with a Jet brand than a Hammer A3-31. On the other hand, the actual owners of the JJP-12HH on several woodworking forums are nearly all pleased with the machine and would buy it again.

There are more intangible issues you didn't mention that I am thinking about. Higher end equipment is generally quieter, works more smoothly and is just more enjoyable to use. I have never been disappointed when I bought the highest quality alternative. In my case, I am trying to upgrade a lot of old equipment and buy some new capability (like the Domino). If I spend an extra $1000 on a J/P, then that means there is some other purchase that will have to wait. Life is always a compromise.


The real answers? Three primary things, in my experience.

1.) Longevity: Look at the number of members here on SMC who have had their Minimax jointer/planers for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, etc. and still running strong.

2.) Quality control: Your odds of getting a lemon from a legit European manufacturer are practically non-existent. Obviously, I can't speak for any other manufacturer but that's not really something I ever see. Sure, I get freight damage, the occasional component that needs replacing and that sort of thing (as we all do) but rare, very rare is the case where the whole machine is unusable and needs to be sent back.

3.) Resale value: Euro machines hold their value. For example, try to find a used MM16 bandsaw. And if you do, what did it sell for? I make the case to prospective owners that it us actually cheaper to buy an Italian machine than a Chaiwanese one. Suppose you could get a new Italian jointer/planer for $4K and a Chaiwanese one for $2K. Move ahead 5 years and you decide you need a bigger machine, so you go to sell both. You could probably get half what you invested for the Italian machine. The Chaiwanese one? A few hundred bucks, maybe? Sure, the initial price was higher but we're assuming you didn't just purchase this to use it and throw it away. So, what did it cost you to actually own the Italian machine versus the Asian unit after a few years? If you got even half what you paid when you sold the Italian machine, that's like getting to use it for free, right? The Asian machine will be an almost total loss on the used hobby market, so which was the money better spent?

Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik

[Prashun Patel]

I am similarly dubious of the practical benefit of a European machine over an Asian machine for the hobbyist like me.

Also, I have a source that claims that some Hammer machines are made largely in Asia anyway. That's hearsay from a source *I* have come to trust, but take it with a grain of salt, because I have no 1st hand proof of that statement.

I do love my Hammer handwheel though, Asian or Austrian, that thing is sa-weeeeeet!

[Erik Loza]

Well, there are Asian machines and there are Asian machines. SCM Group actually partnered up with the biggest mfr. of ww'ing machinery in China. They make entire CNC units, beam saws, etc for SCM Group....

http://www.woodfast.com.cn/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=lists&catid=807

..and those things need to be more precise than any classical ww'ing machine you and I would ever use. On the other hand, I saw some "Minimax dust collectors" at SCM's last open house that were 100% made in China. Same single/double-bagger that you can buy from any number of internet outlets...

329641

So, you need to be smart about what you shop for. "Branding" costs less than "manufacturing" and brands are what sell machines. In my experience, you get what you pay for and things cost what they cost for a reason. Vice-versa, if this or that mfr. claims their machine is "just as good as" one which looks the same or very close on paper, yet costs substantially less, there is a reason why. Because, we all try to get as much as we can for our machines.

Erik

[Jim Andrew]

I have no experience with combo jointer planers, but one consideration for me would be the 12" limit. My nephew gave me some wide boards to use for panels in his cabinet doors, as some have pretty big panels, and I either had to use the widebelt sander to thickness the panels, or rip them down the center to joint the faces flat and glue them back together, because my jointer is only 12". So I would be looking at the wider version of the combo you are looking at. I also have a small bandsaw mill, and often make wider boards, so the wider jointer would be very nice occasionally. Don't forget to look at the slot mortiser option for your combo machine. I see that as a huge add-on.

[Silas Smith]

Not to start an argument as I have a ton of respect for Eric but I find his math doesn't add up to me. $4000 for an Italian brand vs. $2000 for chinese. If 5 years later I sell to upgrade and get half, I lose $2000 on the Italian brand. I might not get 50% for the chinese model, but after 5 years of hobby use, I will still get close, $700-800? It seems to me the resale arguement doesn't add up since I would be out the whole cost of the Chinese model.

If you are a pro, I would argue against the cheaper model as the total cost of ownership would probably be less, especially considering downtime spent fixing or adjusting a lesser model. I also find that I get a certain enjoyment owning a "quality" tool vs. One that will just get the job done. There is plenty of Festool and Felder green in my shop and I love having them, but have a hard time justifying the extra cost for what I use it for.

If the cost were closer, I would always go nicer, but I have a hard time finding an additional $1000 in value if both machines make a flat board and leave a good finish.

Get the Hammer because you just want it or you will wear out the other machine but dont sacrifice the ability to buy another essential tool if you need it. I would rather have a good jointer/planer and a Domino than a great joiner/planer and no Domino.

[Silas Smith]

The best is if you can find a used, quality machine. There are alot of lightly used machines that cost less than Chinese new and still run circles around them.

[Erik Loza]

...It seems to me the resale arguement doesn't add up since I would be out the whole cost of the Chinese model....

Silas, I sell more bandsaws than anything else and have many customers who started out with an Asian machine, then bought an MM16. I hear the same story over and over again: They practically had to give it away or got a fraction of what they paid. I can't disagree that some folks might have gotten a better return on their investment in some situations but based on my experience, most don't. Far from it, in fact.

Erik

[Art Mann]

At the expense of being redundant, I must once again insist that quality stationary woodworking equipment is absolutely not available on the used market in every geographic location. For example, I have scanned the on line and printed ads in towns in a 125 mile radius for 10 years or so and I have yet to see a single jointer planer of any brand for sale. I find old heavy iron table saws for sale at the rate of about one per year. If they are any good, some fool will snap it up at near retail price within hours. That is just the reality. In a previous post, an expert on European woodworking equipment listed the advantages of buying European. Nowhere did he mention that the new equipment he sells will "run circles around" the Chinese made equivalent. I trust his opinions. What you are talking is just hyperbole.


The best is if you can find a used, quality machine. There are alot of lightly used machines that cost less than Chinese new and still run circles around them.

[Frank Martin]

I have read quotes like this one countless times but nobody has ever explained what the European machines will do that the equivalent Chinese ones like Grizzly and Jet won't do. Somebody mentioned that the price difference is approximately the same as a Festool Domino. That is a very meaningful comparison for someone in my situation who has a lot of upgrades to do. I would really like to know the answer to that question.

My personal experience is with a Grizzly J/P with a spiral head and a Minimax CU300 Smart with a tersa head. You are right that when the Grizzly actually worked there was not much of a difference in performance but the key point is that the Grizzly did not work reliably in my case. Upon arrival when I started the machine in the jointer mode it was a scary experience. Turns out the dust collection baffle was not installed correctly and contacting the cutterhead. So, whole bunch of carbide insert cutters were destroyed. Ended up breaking down the machine to reinstall the baffle correctly. Then, I had motor problems. After that it was another mechanical problem with the drive system that required replacing more parts. All this with minimal hobby use. It was the only machine that gave me any trouble. Clearly my experience does not mean every Asian machine is like that but it was enough for me to not look into anything Grizzly any more.

[Art Mann]

Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence doesn't tell me much. Every company has manufacturing defects. I'll bet Eric Loza knows examples of single pieces of SCM equipment that were shipped with manufacturing defects at one time or another. You have to rely on survey statistics to get a true picture of the build quality of a piece of equipment. Unfortunately, we seldom have that kind of information on stationary woodworking equipment. Since this thread started, I ordered a Jet JJP-12HH. Prior to that, I combed the on line woodworking communities for weeks trying to get as much information as possible. That was the closest I could come to a scientific survey. It is very hard to find people who are disappointed with this machine. Most who own it recommend it. I have read a few reports from people who upgraded from a Jet to a European model and most of them even say the Jet worked well. I didn't investigate the Grizzly offerings because of certain specifications and properties I don't like. I will say I haven't seen very many user reports, good or bad.


My personal experience is with a Grizzly J/P with a spiral head and a Minimax CU300 Smart with a tersa head. You are right that when the Grizzly actually worked there was not much of a difference in performance but the key point is that the Grizzly did not work reliably in my case. Upon arrival when I started the machine in the jointer mode it was a scary experience. Turns out the dust collection baffle was not installed correctly and contacting the cutterhead. So, whole bunch of carbide insert cutters were destroyed. Ended up breaking down the machine to reinstall the baffle correctly. Then, I had motor problems. After that it was another mechanical problem with the drive system that required replacing more parts. All this with minimal hobby use. It was the only machine that gave me any trouble. Clearly my experience does not mean every Asian machine is like that but it was enough for me to not look into anything Grizzly any more.

[Julian Tracy]

I don't know about your math, Erik. A $2K Chaiwanese heavy duty wood working machine in good cared for condition will sell for a lot more than a couple hundred bucks around here, and this is a bit of a depressed economy area. Seems like a pretty big exaggeration to me.

Yes, an Italian machine will easily sell for at least 50% of it's cost and probably a bit closer to 60%, but a $2K import machine in the same condition will easily sell for 40% at the least of it's original cost and probably a bit closer to 50%if it's a Jet or Powermatic or one of the more premium (in marketing speak) brands.

A few hundred bucks, maybe??! Hah!

JT

[Erik Loza]

...I'll bet Eric Loza knows examples of single pieces of SCM equipment that were shipped with manufacturing defects at one time or another...

Sure, it happens. Not routinely, but it does. What I see are individual components that fail or are defective, as opposed to the actual machine itself. Not too long ago, Centauro shipped us some bandsaws with 50Hz motors. They screwed up on the production line and SCM (because it had never happened before) didn't assume to check, so had no idea until one of my customers reported it. Fortunately, his was the only one in the field and it was an easy fix, to just ship out the correct 60Hz motor. That's the type of thing I see: Components. You get the odd fence extrusion that is wonky, bad switch once in a while, etc. Not really ever, "The whole machine is unusable and needs to come back".

A manufacturer whose name has been mentioned several times in this thread, for example, blatantly (and I mean BLATANTLY...) ripped off and continues to sell "their version" of the Minimax FS30 Smart 12" jointer/planer and the Minimax S315WS sliding panel saw. It might interest folks to know that I have gotten more than a handful of calls over the years from ww'ers who bought one of these copies and called me because their sample was so bad that the entire machine had to go back. Think about that: Their experience was so bad that despite spending thousands of dollars, hassling with delivery, etc., they would rather wash their hands of that and start fresh. Which says something to me from a user experience perspective. On the other hand, I've been selling FS30's and S315's for over 10 years now and guess how many have been lemons, where the entire machine was unusable and had to come back? Zero, not one. That's not to brag but is the reason I say, "You get what you pay for and if there's a reason why something costs substantially less, despite looking the same on paper, there's probably a pretty good reason why.".


I don't know about your math, Erik...

JT, I can't disagree with your observation but please remember: My business is listening to ww'ers. Hundreds of them over the course of a year. And they don't call me because things are going great. They call me because they have a need. And they usually have that need because things aren't going great. I can only tell you that I seen the exact same scenario countless times. "Thought the budget machine would do the job. Got it and was great during the honeymoon period but soon enough, discovered the warts. Fought with the warts for months or years, finally got fed up and decided to bite the bullet and buy an Italian machine. Bought the MM16, love it, "Why didn't I do this sooner?/Didn't realize what I was missing". Went to sell the Chaiwanese saw, priced it at what I thought was a "fair price", then sat on it for weeks or months while tire-kickers from Craigslist, local paper, etc. wasted my time and the machine still taking up space in shop. Finally got sick and tired, "Here, take it away for this much $$$, just want to be done with it".

Again, that's not to say everyone will have the same experience or that you might not get a better return on yours but I have talked to probably 5,000+ ww'ers over the years and why do I keep hearing the same story over and over again?

Erik

[Art Mann]

Yes, Eric, I'm sure you hear from unhappy customers of other brands who are looking for a better machine. No surprise there. What you don't hear is information from thousands of happy customers. There is no need for them to contact you. I don't know how many that is but neither do you. Like I told another poster, it is a dangerous thing to look at a small (and biased) sample population and derive universal facts from it.

Yes, I did notice a resemblance between the FS30 and another brand of jointer/planer. I don't approve of that at all. Coincidentally, one of the design features shared by the FS30 and the copycat competitor is what ruled that machine out for me.

[Erik Loza]

Art, I should have clarified: Yes, I'm sure there lots of happy users of all levels of machinery.

Erik

[Frank Martin]

Art, if you read carefully I clearly stated my experience as a sample of one. Did not mean to generalize for the forum. As you stated, there is unfortunately not a good body of objective and quantitative evidence for stationary woodworking equipment so we all try to make our decisions based on what we read on the forums and rely on anecdotal evidence.

When I first started the hobby I had a US made Unisaw and several other asian made Delta machines (before all the recent decline in Delta) and they were good machines, never had any problems in terms of basic operation. They worked without breaking down or malfunctioning for the minimal use I had with them. So, I would not say all asian machines are bad. They however had their design limitations but none of that was related to reliability and for the most part obvious to the customer at the time of purchase. So, basically I knew what I was buying. No problem there. However, there is another segment of asian machines which appear to have a lower quality standard. Knowing which machine falls into each category is not easy.

Obviously, a lot of this is personal preferences / priorities and financial resources we each have. So, there is no universal answer. Clearly, asian machines work for a lot of people as they seem to be selling a lot of them. Could you sell me an asian J/P or a band saw? Good luck on that one.... Same goes for a Festool sander vs. an asian made sander and many others like that. Why? Simple, I like using quality tools, lucky to be able to afford them and don't want to waste my very limited hobby time dealing with limitations of my tools.

Enjoy your Jet machine. Similar to your observation I also have not seen much negative press on this machine.


Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence doesn't tell me much. Every company has manufacturing defects. I'll bet Eric Loza knows examples of single pieces of SCM equipment that were shipped with manufacturing defects at one time or another. You have to rely on survey statistics to get a true picture of the build quality of a piece of equipment. Unfortunately, we seldom have that kind of information on stationary woodworking equipment. Since this thread started, I ordered a Jet JJP-12HH. Prior to that, I combed the on line woodworking communities for weeks trying to get as much information as possible. That was the closest I could come to a scientific survey. It is very hard to find people who are disappointed with this machine. Most who own it recommend it. I have read a few reports from people who upgraded from a Jet to a European model and most of them even say the Jet worked well. I didn't investigate the Grizzly offerings because of certain specifications and properties I don't like. I will say I haven't seen very many user reports, good or bad.

[Curt Harms]

I think that's a good and fair assessment, Frank. Some people want no part of something like a Hyundai or Kia, others are fine with them. It's great to have the choice.

[Art Mann]

I can't disagree with Frank either but there is one additional thing I would like to add about buying Chinese woodworking equipment. Some of it is very good and some of it is very bad. The good stuff is often a huge bargain over the more expensive brands. The trick is to filter out the good stuff from the bad. I don't own any Grizzly equipment but I do have a couple of examples from that company. I bought a bench vise from them one time and the castings were so bad that I immediately sent it back. I won't buy any more tools of that nature with the Grizzly brand name. On the other hand, I have been in a lot of little 1 to 5 man cabinet or furniture shops over the years and the second most popular tablesaw I see is the Grizzly G1023 in its many configurations. Some of them have obviously been in service for many, many years. These are people who make their living with a tablesaw. Based on those observations, I have a hard time believing that saw is not accurate and dependable.

I have been around SMC and a few other forums for several years. Over all that time, I have come to identify several people whom I believe and trust. Sometimes its the same people on multiple forums. If one or more of these guys says they own and recommend a piece of equipment I'm looking at, I can at least rest assured that the design is good. Manufacturing quality is less easy to evaluate.

[Art Mann]

This thread has more than run its course but I would like to state why I have argued against discrimination against Chinese made equipment. There are a lot of guys who are either poor or just getting into woodworking who can't afford or won't make the commitment to European made equipment or US premium brands like Powermatic. If they come on this forum looking for buying advice, they may very well conclude that all Chinese equipment is junk and they can't afford the hobby. I hate to see that happen.

[Prashun Patel]

This thread has remained civil. But I agree with Art, it's run its course.

[Jim Becker]

I agree and have closed it accordingly.

Jim
Forum Moderator

[Chris Padilla]

I'll make just one more post in regards to manufacturing. Excellent and poor manufacturing exists EVERYWHERE. The company I work for builds most of its products in China but you can be darn sure that they must meet very strict guidelines as my company wouldn't accept anything less for its customer's needs.