GF Enduro-Var over shellac

[Stew Hagerty]

I am refinishing our coffee & end tables per my honey-do list.
I just finished sanding, applying BLO, and a couple of coats of Garnet Shellac to add a nice reddish hue.
I'm getting ready to apply the top coats and glanced on the back of the Enduro-Var can, and it says:

"Enduro-Var ADHERES WELL only over WATER STAINS, DYE STAINS, and RAW WOOD. It will adhere over an oil stain ONLY IF the stained is completely dry (minimum 4 days drying). Do not use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces, including sanding sealers or shellacs."

Now I've used their HP many times over the years with absolutely zero problems. I wanted to use the Enduro-Var because it's supposed to be so much tougher, and our table gets lots of use.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I have an older can that does not have the same warning. Unfortunately it's Saturday so I can't call their tech support.

[John TenEyck]

I've read that label, too, Stew, and swallowed hard a couple of times, but I've never had any problems with adhesion and some of those pieces are now several years old. I've even put it over regular shellac (not dewaxed) without any issues. I don't recommend that but I've done it.

John

[Stew Hagerty]

I make my own shellac using BT&C (Tools for Working Wood) Tiger Flakes. It's dewaxed, and IMHO the best shellac flakes available.
I use Everclear for the alcohol component, and mix it in a 2 pound cut. When spraying, I typically mix in a bit of 98% isopropyl alcohol as It is the slowest drying.
I assumed they are referring to regular non-dewaxed shellac. But I didn't want to just put it on without checking to see if anyone has had experience with it. I found it interesting that the older can didn't have the same warning though.

[Jim Becker]

Most "common" shellac has wax in it (naturally) and many shellac products don't have it removed. Water borne finishes don't adhere well over shellac that isn't de-waxed. That's the likely reason for the manufacturer to suggest it's not a good thing to put under their finish. It should be fine, however, over de-waxed shellac, either premixed like Zinsser SealCoat or mixed up from flakes. As always, it's a good idea to test a full finishing regimen before committing it to your project.

Note that some folks have experienced issues over de-waxed shellac when the shellac was applied "thickly". One or two thin, sprayed coats or one brushed coat should be sufficient to do any necessary sealing of oil, stain or dye...don't build the shellac for this purpose.

[Stew Hagerty]

Note that some folks have experienced issues over de-waxed shellac when the shellac was applied "thickly". One or two thin, sprayed coats or one brushed coat should be sufficient to do any necessary sealing of oil, stain or dye...don't build the shellac for this purpose.

Thanks Jim. I applied on coat of BLO followed by two sprayed coats of the shellac. Just enough to seal the oil and give me the shade I am looking for.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> Do not use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces, including sanding sealers or shellacs.

That caution is airmed at standard shellac. Standard shellac contains a natural wax that interferes with many finishes. The solution is the apply a coat of dewaxed shellac. Zinnser make a product called Sealcoat. It's a 100% dewaxed shellac and will not cause any adhesion problems.

[Stew Hagerty]

>>>> Do not use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces, including sanding sealers or shellacs.

That caution is airmed at standard shellac. Standard shellac contains a natural wax that interferes with many finishes. The solution is the apply a coat of dewaxed shellac. Zinnser make a product called Sealcoat. It's a 100% dewaxed shellac and will not cause any adhesion problems.

Thanks Howard, as I said, I exclusively use premium BT&C dewaxed tiger flakes to make my own. I know exactly what each component is and there is zero possibility of any wax in the mix.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks Jim. I applied on coat of BLO followed by two sprayed coats of the shellac. Just enough to seal the oil and give me the shade I am looking for.
That's pretty much the method I use as "standard" for my projects. :)

[Chris Merriam]

I used 2 or 3 intermediate coats of Sealcoat on my bedroom furniture, top coated with Endurovar, about five years old now, no issues yet

[Stew Hagerty]

That's pretty much the method I use as "standard" for my projects. :)

Yeah me too. I just have never used Enduro-Var before. I've put their high Performance on as a topcoat many times with no problems at all, and the es not have the same warning.

[Stew Hagerty]

OK... I just got off the phone with the GF Tech Guru.

He said that Enduro-Var should NEVER be put over shellac, dewaxed or not. For that matter, Enduro-Var should never be put over anything but itself or raw/dyed wood.
He said that it's chemical properties don't play well with any other finish. It's not your father's water-based poly. It's an animal all to itself, an entirely new category of finish.
But, he said that their Enduro Sanding Sealer followed by 2-3 coats of High Performance gives fantastic water resistance. He said that the Enduro Sanding Sealer is what really boosts the durability & water resistance.

So, I guess I will put away the Enduro-Var and go with his suggestion.

[Jim Becker]

Hmm....very interesting. Either that's a really "difficult" finish or they want to sell a whole lot of their Enduro sanding sealer... ;)

[Keith Kelly]

Yikes. What could make Enduro-Var an animal all to itself or a new category of finish? I totally have Enduro-Var drying on top of dewaxed shellac as I type this. I'm not too worried, but am curious about what makes this so different that it couldn't be applied over dewaxed shellac.

[John TenEyck]

I have several years of empirical results that says EnduroVar works over shellac, even the waxy stuff. I've put it over OB stain, too w/o problems. I find it funny that the tech. said not to put it over anything except their sanding sealer, yet their tech. data sheet says you can put it over OB stain as long as it's dry. It can't be both ways. And "an entirely new category of finish"? Really? They've been selling it for what seems like at least 10 years.

HP Poly is a very good product, but it's not even close to EnduroVar in chemical resistance. Yes, it will stand up to plain water very well, for days w/o damage. But even short term exposure to DNA results in permanent damage and acetone and ammonia containing cleaners are deadly on it. None of the above damage EnduroVar in the short term.

There is something going on at GF. What they used to say they often no longer do, in both their verbal and written communication. Jim might have it right about steering customers to buy more of their products.

John

[Stew Hagerty]

they want to sell a whole lot of their Enduro sanding sealer... ;)


I find it funny that the tech. said not to put it over anything except their sanding sealer

I'm sorry, you misunderstand. He said you can only put it over raw wood, dyes, & stains.
I specifically asked, and he said it will NOT even adhere to their Enduro Sanding Sealer.
He was very adamant, and stated that they had done lots of very thorough testing. He told me that it was not a question of IF the finish would fail, but WHEN.
He suggested that if I wanted increased water resistance, that I should apply 1-2 coats of the Enduro Sanding Sealer followed by 2-3 coats of High Performance.

[John TenEyck]

I'm sorry, you misunderstand. He said you can only put it over raw wood, dyes, & stains.
I specifically asked, and he said it will NOT even adhere to their Enduro Sanding Sealer.
He was very adamant, and stated that they had done lots of very thorough testing. He told me that it was not a question of IF the finish would fail, but WHEN.
He suggested that if I wanted increased water resistance, that I should apply 1-2 coats of the Enduro Sanding Sealer followed by 2-3 coats of High Performance.


You're right; I misunderstood. Sorry. So I just looked at GF's Website, where I read:

"Enduro-Var ADHERES WELL only over WATER STAINS, DYE STAINS, and RAW WOOD. Use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces at your own risk. It will adhere over an oil stain ONLY IF the stain is completely dry (minimum 4 days drying)."

So it is OK over and oil based stain but not over shellac? My personal experience is that it works over both, with less risk over shellac. In fact, I now spray a light coat of dewaxed shellac over the dried OB stain before applying EnduroVar. I'm not sure when I started using EnduroVar, but I am sure some of the projects I used it on are at least 3 years old and I think at least one is 5 years old. Hard to imagine GF waited 3 years to see if something would fail, much less 5. EnduroVar has proven to be the most chemically durable WB finish I've found, but if GF doesn't have confidence it can be used as I prefer to I should wise up and move to another product. I'm not going to try to convince people it works if they say it won't. I've been wanting to try Target's EM-2000 I think it is anyway.

Thanks. You helped me get off the dime on this.

John

[Stew Hagerty]

Well that is why I was intending on using for my tables. I wanted the most durable WB finish available..
I had an older can of satin, but I wanted to use semi-gloss so I ordered a new can. The old can does not have that same warning. It is maybe 3 yrs old and unopened. Had is seen the warning on the old can, I would have used a dye instead of the garnet shellac to tint the top.
Hmmm, come tto think of it though, I wouldn't have been able to use the BLO either.
Well, I'm spraying the Enduro Sanding Sealer coats in the AM, and the High Performance in the afternoon.
Then I'll swap it out for the end table and finish it the same way.

[David C Gilbert]

You're right; I misunderstood. Sorry. So I just looked at GF's Website, where I read:

"Enduro-Var ADHERES WELL only over WATER STAINS, DYE STAINS, and RAW WOOD. Use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces at your own risk. It will adhere over an oil stain ONLY IF the stain is completely dry (minimum 4 days drying)."

So it is OK over and oil based stain but not over shellac?

John

GF website says seal coats of Shellac are OK. But in a way that they seem to be trying to cover their behinds as well.

https://generalfinishes.com/professional-products/water-base-topcoats-and-sanding-sealers/enduro-var#.VpTmZyshk3E

From the FAQ section on the professional page (see link):

"Can I use shellac under the Enduro-Var? No, if you need to lock in dye, use only one light coat, dewaxed, 1# cut, and sand before applying for adherence."

[John TenEyck]

Yeah, there wormy worded info. has always bothered me even though I've never had any problems using the product. But, as much as I like EnduroVar, it's time to move on to a product "without issues".

John

[Jim Becker]

Sorry, I indeed did misunderstand you. My apologies.

[Doug Hobkirk]

FWIW, Marc, the Wood Whisperer, did a test to see if poly that specifies "don't put over shellac" had any adhesion problems. To summarize, he found zero problems with Minwax water poly over Zinsser waxed or de-waxed shellac. He tested with two very sticky tapes and globs of epoxy.
Maybe this is useful for you.

[Stew Hagerty]

FWIW, Marc, the Wood Whisperer, did a test to see if poly that specifies "don't put over shellac" had any adhesion problems. To summarize, he found zero problems with Minwax water poly over Zinsser waxed or de-waxed shellac. He tested with two very sticky tapes and globs of epoxy.
Maybe this is useful for you.

Oh, General Finishes has no problems whatsoever with putting their regular WB Poly (High Performance) over shellac.
In fact their tech suggested it. They are VERY specific. The ONLY one of their products that this applies to is Enduro-Var.