How close is too close - dog holes to the edge

[Dale Murray]

I am finally sitting down to completely design, redesign, design-again, then scrap that design to do another design of my workbench.

Basics:
I have a 90"x30"x2.25" maple top (continuous boards, flat and stable)
The finished will be about 8' +/-2" and 32-1/2" deep when I'm done (the maple top will be cut down to 84")
I already have a LV twin screw vise for the end
Will be purchasing a Benchcrafted classic solo for the leg vise.
I will be adding a 6" skirt on all sides of the top.

I have 8/4 maple to use for my skirts that will be mated a tongue I create on the sides of the top.
The skirts will have a finished thickness of 1-5/8" to 1-3/4" (I have not dimensioned these yet, still designing).

My desire it to cut slots (3/4" deep) for square dogs in the skirt before attaching to the top thus leaving me with 7/8" to 1" of material between the dog mortise and front edge. Will that be enough material without compromising strength? (dogs will be spaced 6-8" apart)

This is going to be my first and most likely last bench I ever build and quite substantial.

[David Eisenhauer]

Pretty d@#^n close. I don't believe that I have seen dog holes any closer than 2" to 2-1/2" from the edge of a bench, but I am no expert on anything, never mind benches. Strength wise, I don't know, I guessssss it shooooooould be OK, but may not be best alignment for clamping down longer boards along the edge for planning, etc. I am assuming that the twin screw vise can be used with a top finger on the moving chop to push against a board that is, in turn, lodged against a dog. What distance from the edge (not the end) of the bench will the twin screw vise finger be located at? Typically, one likes to center the vise action on boards clamped along the edge and 7/8" to 1" would work better on fairly narrow boards. Can you cut the dog holes in the existing top and then add on the skirt to get a little more clearance?

[James Pallas]

With 6 to 8 between dog holes and square dogs I would think you would more likely break the vice jaw unless it was a great hunk of wood.
Jim

[Reinis Kanders]

Mine are less than inch from the edge. Closer the better. I can do rabettd, grooves, etc. for narrow pieces without a sticking board.

[David Eisenhauer]

Reinis I believe you, but a question so I can learn. How does it work for holding - say 6" wide boards along the edge? Do your vice finger and dog holes line up?

[ken hatch]

I am finally sitting down to completely design, redesign, design-again, then scrap that design to do another design of my workbench.

Basics:
I have a 90"x30"x2.25" maple top (continuous boards, flat and stable)
The finished will be about 8' +/-2" and 32-1/2" deep when I'm done (the maple top will be cut down to 84")
I already have a LV twin screw vise for the end
Will be purchasing a Benchcrafted classic solo for the leg vise.
I will be adding a 6" skirt on all sides of the top.

I have 8/4 maple to use for my skirts that will be mated a tongue I create on the sides of the top.
The skirts will have a finished thickness of 1-5/8" to 1-3/4" (I have not dimensioned these yet, still designing).

My desire it to cut slots (3/4" deep) for square dogs in the skirt before attaching to the top thus leaving me with 7/8" to 1" of material between the dog mortise and front edge. Will that be enough material without compromising strength? (dogs will be spaced 6-8" apart)

This is going to be my first and most likely last bench I ever build and quite substantial.

Dale,

Don't bet on it :).

Don't over think your first bench. It is almost a guarantee that what you think you want in a bench will not work for you and you will need to build a second or even a third bench to get to a happy spot. Build it simple, build it quick, build it heavy, strong, and cheap. Then go to work making furniture, a year later build another fixing the things that drive you bonkers on the first bench. Repeat until you have one that works for you. If at that point you want it "pretty" go for it.

ken

[ken hatch]

Dale,

Just another thought to add....Too many vises just get in the way. Take a look at Mike Siemsen's YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhn-PAfEW4)on working on a bench without a vise.

ken

[Dale Murray]

Can you cut the dog holes in the existing top and then add on the skirt to get a little more clearance?

The reason I want the dogs in the skirt is support. If I cut the dogs in the existing top them apply the skirt I would only have 2-1/4" of support against the dogs whereas in the skirt it will support the full length.

[Dale Murray]

With 6 to 8 between dog holes and square dogs I would think you would more likely break the vice jaw unless it was a great hunk of wood.
Jim

The dogs would be on the front and rear skirts spaced 6-8" one from the next, not every six inches across the bench. I would install two dogs on the twin screw vise to line up with them.

[Dale Murray]

Dale,
Just another thought to add....Too many vises just get in the way. Take a look at Mike Siemsen's YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhn-PAfEW4)on working on a bench without a vise.
ken

My garage bench does not have a vise and it has been my only bench for a year now.
The upside, it is attached to a cement wall so I have an excellent plane stop when I need one.
The downside, I am getting tired of creative clamping solutions; two hand screws clamped flat on the bench holding a board on edge to be planed.

This will be my indoor bench for hand tool goodness and placed along a wall with 7 feet southern facing windows.

[Dale Murray]

Dale,

Don't bet on it :).

ken

At 45yrs with a full time job, I dont know how many benches I are in the future, or the money to build them. I am building it in such a way that I can cut two inches off the overall height fairly easily.

I'm 6'2". I will build it to be 35" tall but can be cut down to 33" if need be.

[Reinis Kanders]

I have a tail vise and holes in it are aligned with the ones in the bench. Stuff does not move in the tail vise, but wider stuff I usually plane against a stop which I have near the face vise. I am really happy with that that Veritas tail vise BTW, it gets much more use than the twin screw vise I used previously as an end vise.

Here is the picture.

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Reinis I believe you, but a question so I can learn. How does it work for holding - say 6" wide boards along the edge? Do your vice finger and dog holes line up?

[ken hatch]

At 45yrs with a full time job, I dont know how many benches I are in the future, or the money to build them. I am building it in such a way that I can cut two inches off the overall height fairly easily.

I'm 6'2". I will build it to be 35" tall but can be cut down to 33" if need be.

Dale,

I'm 73 yrs old also with a full time job and I'm still building benches, in fact I have a small traveling bench in the planning stage as I type. BTW, with almost every build the new bench has been simpler than the last. The last bench which is as close to perfect for my work flow as a bench can get is what I call a cross channel bench, French bones and English skin.

What I've tried to post is there are fashions in work benches, often what is in fashion may not be the best for you but the only way to find out is to work on a bench. I know chicken and egg.

Good luck but most of all have fun,

ken

[Dale Murray]

Dale,
I'm 73 yrs old also with a full time job and I'm still building benches, in fact I have a small traveling bench in the planning stage as I type. BTW, with almost every build the new bench has been simpler than the last. The last bench which is as close to perfect for my work flow as a bench can get is what I call a cross channel bench, French bones and English skin.

What I've tried to post is there are fashions in work benches, often what is in fashion may not be the best for you but the only way to find out is to work on a bench. I know chicken and egg.

Good luck but most of all have fun,

ken

In the grand scheme of things 45 is still a baby. I have loved woodworking my whole life ((using dads shop) but its only been the past few years I have been solvent enough to pursue the hobby and three years that I've owned a house. With that said, I hope not to spend my time in the future building one new bench after the other. I am sure I will find a shortcoming here and there but learn to live with them.

My father has a stand he built for his belt sander in the 70's. It was to be a temp stand until he could build a better one. It is now 40 years down the road and that stand it still under the sander.

I totally agree, benches seem to have a flavor of the week. Some of the most influential woodworkers in the world use(d) what are effectively industrial work tables and created genius results. Its not the tools or bench, its the person.

I will fully admit this is a major passion project and one I've waited 37 years to pursue.

I remember seeing my very first shaker workbench in Fine Woodworking in the late 70's.
It was a B&W photo.
It was long and sleek.
It was beautiful.
Since that day I have wanted to build one and promised myself I would build one. Many sleepless night and daydreams have been wrapped up in this thing.

I am not trying to duplicate anything I've seen before and clearly not a purest - using a twin screw vise - but I am building this to fit my space, and maximize internal storage, and have it be aesthetically pleasing.

Sorry, went off on a tangent for a moment.

[Joe A Faulkner]

The stress on the mortise walls will be on the sides facing towards the end of the bench, not the front or back edges of the bench. So from a strength stand point, especially using square dogs, I can't think of any work holding applications that are going to stress your 1" sized sidewall of your dog holes.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The stress on the mortise walls will be on the sides facing towards the end of the bench, not the front or back edges of the bench. So from a strength stand point, especially using square dogs, I can't think of any work holding applications that are going to stress your 1" sized sidewall of your dog holes.

I agree, if you have the stress along the length, no problem. I am not a structural engineer, but, my concern would be if you had a metal hold fast and you wanted to use it with the force / pressure pointing towards the side rather than the front / back portion. You probably need to worry about punching shear stress and how thick to withstand however much force the hold fast applies to the side when you wack it with your mallet. I expect that the force is pretty concentrated along the side. Rather than pointing you to tables, I would say that we know too little without serious study to understand how far from the edge, but, I would say that if you can drop in a crow bar and not blow it out you are just fine at 1" with Maple. Most references are worried about structural issues (think house loading) as opposed to the punching shear strength (if you really wanted to run numbers). If I were really concerned, I would drill a few samples and then if I could blow it out.

[Paul Saffold]

I have round 3/4" dog holes, 1 1/8" from the edge, spaced 4 1/2" on center in a 2 1/2" white oak strip glued without t&g or splines.
No issues with holdfast. Yet...... but I'll keep trying:)

I agree with Ken. Have fun with it.

Keep in mind that it is wood and you are a woodworker. It's easy to modify. If something breaks you can fix it.

[Dale Murray]

There have been two design revisions since I started this thread. Once of my primary concerns is the ability to remove the top from the base if I ever need to transport it to a new house. The latest revision will facilitate this and allow the dog holes to be cut into the existing top instead of the skirt.

I appreciate all the feedback thus far. Once I have a finalized design I'll share it here.

[Jim Koepke]

I am building this to fit my space, and maximize internal storage, and have it be aesthetically pleasing.

These are your best design features.

For holdfasts it might be better to have a separate row of holes for them a little further in from the edge. My dog holes always seem a bit close to the edge for the optimum use of my holdfasts. Maybe have the holdfast holes placed so the pad of the holdfast just reaches the edge of the bench when sitting at 90º to the edge.

jtk

[Dale Murray]

I thought I would share the current version of my design. I am about 99% sure this is what I will run with.

91.5" vise closed
32.625" deep
33.125" tall

The drawers are wrapped with 1/4" walnut.
Door opening is wrapped with 1/4" walnut.
The ends are walnut.

All the walnut came from my grandfathers stash of wood. It has been stored in his basement for 40 years. Everything else is 8/4 hard maple.

This images do not show the actual drawer construction or the door behind the leg vise.

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[David Eisenhauer]

Where will you position the dog holes in relation to the long edge?

[Judson Green]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214028-Bench-dogs-holes-how-close-to-the-front-edge

as close as possible with out losing strength.

[Dale Murray]

Where will you position the dog holes in relation to the long edge?


The skirt is 4" tall and 1-3/4" thick. I will route the dogs in the skirt prior to attaching it. Ultimately, the dogs will be 1" from the front and rear edges of the bench.

[Curt Putnam]

If a 3/4" distance from front edge to start of round mortise is OK, then does the strength change if the top is laminated 3-4/4 boards? Probably 3/4" after planing.

[Joe A Faulkner]

If you haven't already, be sure to check out the amount of clearance your twin screw vise is going to need. You might have to make your base a few inches shorter. I like the design. I wonder if you don't want a second front leg on the far right that is co-planer with the front edge of the bench to be in the same plane as the back side of your leg vise? You might even work a few dog holes into it, to give you some additional work holding options for working long stock that is clamped in the leg vise. Might come in handy for jointing wide boards.

[Dale Murray]

I discovered the issue you speak of during my first design - this has been through several revisions; each a result of an oops. Those vice components are modeled after the real thing so I could not make the same mistake again.

As for the right leg, it is a good idea but I have other ideas. Its not shown but I do intend to install a sliding dead man that can be stowed in the base when not in use. Hopefully it can be stowed in the base, I have no idea how much space it will need since I have not designed it yet.

[Robert Engel]

The poster is right re: stress is not toward the edge, so how close doesn't matter.
This is fine for plowing a rebate on a narrow board but for general use it seems too close.
Mine are 2 1/2" from edge.

As far as height it depends on your back really and how much planing you're doing.
I am 6'1" and my bench is 34" high.
You can always add spacers but making shorter is much harder, so my advise is build to the short side.

[Dale Murray]

I too am 6'1". The bench height debate was a serious internal struggle. I figure I will eventually build a bentop bench if I need to get the work higher for some techniques.

My benchtop is already made minus the skirts front and rear. My intent is to route the dogs in the skirt stock then apply to the bench. The only way I could get them further from the edge would be to route them directly in the existing top. My concern is if I screw it up; easier to make a new skirt piece than fix a massive bench top. I am secure in my insecurities.

[Dale Murray]

I've made some progress on this bench since I've started this thread.

The length in this photo is 93"x31-7/8"x3-7/8".

These are the first hand cut dovetails I have ever created.


The tenon and tongue index and lock the walnut end caps in place.
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The dovetails tighten everything up.
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[Andrew Pitonyak]

Look pretty nice for a first attempt... Very nice indeed.

[Chris Fournier]

I have two benches with dog holes 0.75" and 1.0" from the face of the top. Benches are 15 and 20 years old.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Looks exceptionally nice. Makes want to build another bench.

[Dale Murray]

Thank you.

Last night I started the twin screw install and see the vise came with a couple 5" hex bolts and barrel nuts - usually used to mount the rear face to the bench rails. In my case the rear face is held in place via dovetails, rabbet, and two tenons (an absurd amount of glue surface); I wonder if I should use those too?

I could drill through the rear face and through the tenon, thus going nowhere near the dovetails. They would be insurance against glue failure (very unlikely) and act as a clamp during glue up. Something tells me this would be superfluous, however.

It should be noted, I will be installing removable faces on the vise so the bolts would be completely hidden.

[Dale Murray]

Yesterday I assembled the top - everything glued in place. I will not flatten the top or clean up any of the joints until after the base is completed, until then this is what i have.

I used hard maple with a layer of leopard wood to minimize any sag from the twin screw vise. Paper shims were used to fine tune the fit.
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