Which type of chisel is appropriate for this task?

[Frederick Skelly]

I want to tweak the mortises I just cut on my new machine. I was cutting through-mortises from both the front and back sides and they don't quite meet in the middle. One side is offset from the other by about 1/32" - just enough to screw things up. I know (now) how it happened and I could simply remake the parts. But I don't want to waste the material. So I'll get in some chiselling practice, which is valuable too.

I have a set of Marples Blue Handle (with the white ring) bench chisels. I also have the Narex Paring Chisels - I like them alot, BTW. The mortises are 1/2" wide, 1 1/2" deep (they go all the way through) and 1 1/2" long. The 1/32" offset is along the long side of the through mortise. The parts they are in are about 24" long and are easy to secure.

I'll play around with both types I have, but I suspect the Narex will be too long for this job. And I'm sure the bench chisels can do the job if I want to. But I'm just wondering if next time, there's a more appropriate set to buy - a shorter set of paring chisels, a round back chisel, etc, etc? (Example - I can cut mortises with my bench chisels, but using a dedicated mortising chisel is often a better way.) Or is this mostly a preference thing?

Have any thoughts?

Fred

[Jim Koepke]

My thought would be to use the chisel that feels most comfortable for the work at hand. This is with any task that presents itself.

In this case there are at least three different chisels that would likely be on the bench one is a Stanley 4xx series butt chisel. One is a Union Hardware paring chisel. The third most likely to be selected is a P.S.&W bevel edge chisel. All are 1-1/4". My 1" Buck Brothers paring chisel might also get in on the act.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I would use my LN bench chisel. If it was not available, it would be a Stanley 750.
I don't have butt chisels, so I can't comment on them.

I like the Narex Paring Chisels. They would be good, but I don't see using the crank neck for through mortise work. They certainly have a good edge for paring.

Start the task and use the chisel your most comfortable with. Your shavings should be translucent.

[Patrick Chase]

I want to tweak the mortises I just cut on my new machine. I was cutting through-mortises from both the front and back sides and they don't quite meet in the middle. One side is offset from the other by about 1/32" - just enough to screw things up. I know (now) how it happened and I could simply remake the parts. But I don't want to waste the material. So I'll get in some chiselling practice, which is valuable too.

I'd go with standard bench chisels for that. I would also make an alignment jig consisting of a piece of wood with a wide rabbet that's as deep as the distance from the workpiece edge to the mortise face. You then clamp the workpiece and jig together with the jig's rabbet against the workpiece, such that the jig's face provides a vertical reference for paring the mortise.

I'm sure that a more skilled woodworker could pare a perfectly vertical mortise without such a guide :-).

[David Eisenhauer]

Paring chisel. I would either add in the vertical-wall jig as described by Patrick, or, at the least, create a knife line that I wanted to pare to. I usually have pretty good luck staying vertical without a guide, but I definitely need a knife wall (in this case 1/32" back from one existing mortise sidewall) to work to and down from.

[steven c newman]

Mortise chopping tools..
329016
Simply because I chop by hand. The widest one is an Aldis, about 1" wide or so....
329017
And, Pine isn't the easiest to chop...

[Patrick Chase]

Paring chisel. I would either add in the vertical-wall jig as described by Patrick, or, at the least, create a knife line that I wanted to pare to. I usually have pretty good luck staying vertical without a guide, but I definitely need a knife wall (in this case 1/32" back from one existing mortise sidewall) to work to and down from.

The specific paring chisels he has are 15" long overall with 9.5" blades (I just measured one of mine to refresh my memory). They're ponderous overkill for cleaning a 1.5" deep mortise as described here. Even with a jig for vertical you realistically need about 5-6" of blade. Anything more just gets in the way.

[Reinis Kanders]

If your bench is flat then you can just plane a scrap to right thickness and use that as a reference for paring chisel. I also use paper or tape for the first attempt to make sure I do not take off too much.
This also works well for blind dovetails. I think I learned this concept from Charlesworth's video.

[David Eisenhauer]

The scrap on the bench concept is the same as using the flat upper face of a Moxon vise chop as a rest for the back of the chisel. Good idea, I'm thinking that Charlesworth cat may be on to something. Patrick: Correct. When I said paring, I was thinking of the action (pare, not chop) rather than the tool. A true paring chisel would be too long for handy use, but a bench chisel would be OK. Like Stephen, I prefer to use a mortise chisel for the main work, but like a bench chisel for the final fine tuning. The edges of my particular bench chisels seem to suffer quickly if I apply a mallet to them any more than once or twice. Question to Frederick: If you match the two mortise walls, will you have to shim the part of the mortise that is offset?

[Patrick Chase]

Like Stephen, I prefer to use a mortise chisel for the main work, but like a bench chisel for the final fine tuning.

I think we're saying the same thing here, so my apologies if I'm being pedantic...

In this case it appears that he used a square-chisel machine to drill the mortise from both sides, and reading between the lines perhaps wasn't careful about which side of the workpiece faced the fence (been there, done that).

The remaining work therefore requires paring cuts along the sides, and that requires thin slices parallel to the grain. Mortise chisels are designed to chop straight down into the wood with the blade parallel to the ends and across the grain, and that combination is much more demanding of the tool. I think a bench chisel will hold up just fine for this application.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks for all your thoughts here guys. It's always helpful to me and greatly appreciated.

You'll laugh heartily at me, but I used a 1 1/4" Narex paring chisel. I laid the part on the bench and took very thin shavings until my dovetail square showed everything to be aligned correctly. Then I tweaked it where required to be parallel to the length of the part. It worked very well.

I just re-cut and fit the tenons because I realized that wedges running the lengtth of the mortise were going to look crappy. I got a really nice fit. (I'm going to write a separate post to talk about that.)

Many thanks!
Fred

[Tom M King]

I really like Iwasaki wood files for the last little bit of cleaning up for mortises, and small tenons. The little extra fine ones leave an almost glass smooth surface.

[Frederick Skelly]

I hadn't thought of that Tom. I have a set of those. I'll give that a try. Thanks!

[lowell holmes]

I went back and read your first post. While I don't have any, there may be some Butt Chisels in your future.:)

[Brian Holcombe]

For through mortises I use a paring chisel. If your mark out is accurate to your reference face, then you don't need jigs or guides, just a thin straight edge to check your progress.

[lowell holmes]

No one mentioned firmer chisels. At times I will use a firmer chisel to pare a mortise. The thick square sides on the chisel seems to help, but I'm not convinced it does.
I think it is a matter of mood, but I doubt anyone else has that issue.:)

[Frederick Skelly]

I went back and read your first post. While I don't have any, there may be some Butt Chisels in your future.:)

Yes, I was looking at those last night. You may be right.:)

[Frederick Skelly]

For through mortises I use a paring chisel. If your mark out is accurate to your reference face, then you don't need jigs or guides, just a thin straight edge to check your progress.

Yes, my paring chisels were the better of my 2 available choices. I think one of the things I didn't previously get, was why working from a reference face is necessary. I definitely get it now though!

Thanks Brian!
Fred

[Tom Vanzant]

Frederick, glad you sorted out your mortise. As I read it, you had 1/2x1-1/2" mortises from front and back faces of a 1-1/2" thick board, mis-aligned by 1/32". I would have pared the 1/32" from each side using the existing mortise wall as a guide. Any bench or butt chisel would have worked. That would have resulted in a 9/16" wide mortise, but that could have been remedied with a 9/16" tenon to fit. You didn't say whether the mating piece had been processed yet.

[Frederick Skelly]

Dang, I didn't think of that Tom. But I did get the tenons cut and fit. They look better than anything I've been able to produce so far. I'm not where I want to be yet, but I've turned a corner. Thanks for your help!

Fred

[lowell holmes]

It's time to visit the article shown here.It is my all time favorite.

In particular, read about the Maynard Technique. It works spectacularly.


http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/MORTISE_BY_HAND.pdf (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/MORTISE_BY_HAND.pdf)

[steven c newman]

Must the way I do mine?
Mortise chisels are from Butcher, or New Haven Edge Tool co., and maybe a Witherby
Mallet is one I turned awhile back from Spalted Maple
No real Mortise gauge, just a combo square, and a sharp pencil. I then tap each line with a chisel to knife cut the lines.

Wide bench chisel to square the walls. Same one I used to knife cut the lines.
I use the skinniest Mortise chisel I have, 1/8" Butcher, to clean the mortise out. It also will "pry"out the waste.

Through Mortises, handchopped from both sides.
329087
Then, if needed, a chisel to pare flat on the sides, or if there is room, a rasp.
329088
Sometimes, things get ..complicated in there.

[Patrick Chase]

It's time to visit the article shown here.It is my all time favorite.

In particular, read about the Maynard Technique. It works spectacularly.


http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/MORTISE_BY_HAND.pdf (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/MORTISE_BY_HAND.pdf)

Yep, that's my preference as well. Having that single drilled hole to begin with instead of trying to chop down into solid wood makes things a lot easier on both tools and driver.

FWIW his claim that "This [1-2 degree side] taper is presenton quality older tools and missing on latertools and every modern chisel I’ve encountered" suggests he hasn't encountered many modern chisels. The Narex mortise chisels have tapered sides and IIRC there are others like them. I'd love to have those D2 Ray Iles chisels but can't justify the expense.

[Pat Barry]

FWIW his claim that "This [1-2 degree side] taper is presenton quality older tools and missing on latertools and every modern chisel I’ve encountered" suggests he hasn't encountered many modern chisels.
I'm pretty sure that C Schwarz knows what HE is talking about. He is well educated in things of this nature and well respected.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm pretty sure that C Schwarz knows what HE is talking about. He is well educated in things of this nature and well respected.

Pat, it's very clear that you've developed some sort of obsessive dislike of me (though a quick look through the archives reveals that I'm in very good company in that regard), but I'd encourage you to stick to what you know or at least avoid cases where your argument isn't so trivially disproven.

The Narex and Hirsch mortise chisels at a minimum have similar base-to-top taper to the Ray Iles ones that Schwartz was claiming were unique.

EDIT: OK, I was wrong here as Lowell pointed out. That's what happens when you let trolls get under your skin. My apologies to everybody else who saw this.

[lowell holmes]

Yep, that's my preference as well. Having that single drilled hole to begin with instead of trying to chop down into solid wood makes things a lot easier on both tools and driver.
The Narex mortise chisels have tapered sides and IIRC there are others like them. I'd love to have those D2 Ray Iles chisels but can't justify the expense.
I have two Ray Iles pig stickers and two Narex pig stickers. The Ray Iles chisels are better looking, but the Narex pig stickers really do a good job. I don't feel like I'm losing anything when using them. I sand the handles of Narex chisels and hit them with Johnson's floor wax. They feel as good as the Iles chisels when I do that.

[Tom M King]

These Ulmia's have tapered sides. I bought them new in the early '70s.329105I like ones with tapered sides. This was a 20' long Heart Pine replacement top rail for wainscoting, like in the background, to replace the partially rotten one laying on the sawhorses next to it. Stiles were mortised into the rails, and no two were the same spacing off the face. That board is just as we got it from the supplier of reclaimed lumber. The surface was smooth planed to match all the other original ones before we put it in. Those planer marks didn't stay. This house was built in 1828, and every room, even though really close in style, was done by a different joiner with slightly differently worn molding planes.

[Patrick Chase]

I have two Ray Iles pig stickers and two Narex pig stickers. The Ray Iles chisels are better looking, but the Narex pig stickers really do a good job. I don't feel like I'm losing anything when using them. I sand the handles of Narex chisels and hit them with Johnson's floor wax. They feel as good as the Iles chisels when I do that.

What do you think about durability?

The Narex mortise chisels appear (I haven't taken the handle off of any of mine) to be fairly conventional tanged chisels, though they don't have a thin neck between the shoulder and bolster like a sash mortise chisel - they retain their full profile all the way to the bolster. Joel's series of articles about English mortise chisels argue that the full-size (as wide/thick as the handle) bolster on "true" pigstickers is a significant plus - any opinion either way?

EDIT: I agree that the Narex ones work well. Their Cr-Mn steel is fairly tough if not all that hard, and that makes them more than serviceable for mortising. I'll replace them with better ones if they break but until then I'm happy.

[lowell holmes]

In regard to the Schwarz article, at the time it was written, pigsticker chisels were not as prevalent as they are now. It was common to use square sided mortise chisels, even firmer chisels for chopping mortises. For a long time, I thought firmer chisels were mortise chisels. The Lie Nielsen mortise chisels were (and are) square sided. I have Lie Nielsen mortise chisels. I still use them occasionally, but I prefer the pig stickers. We used bevel edge chisels (and still do on occasion) to chop mortises.

So Schwarz was speaking the truth at the time he wrote about the sides of the mortise chisels.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use square sided mortise chisels, fairly happy with them. All things considered I like them better than comparable tapered side mortise chisels I had previously.

Yamahiro is the maker.

[Patrick Chase]

In regard to the Schwarz article, at the time it was written, pigsticker chisels were not as prevalent as they are now. It was common to use square sided mortise chisels, even firmer chisels for chopping mortises. For a long time, I thought firmer chisels were mortise chisels. The Lie Nielsen mortise chisels were (and are) square sided. I have Lie Nielsen mortise chisels. I still use them occasionally, but I prefer the pig stickers. We used bevel edge chisels (and still do on occasion) to chop mortises.

So Schwarz was speaking the truth at the time he wrote about the sides of the mortise chisels.

2007. I can buy that - the Narex chisels didn't hit the market until 2012 as far as I can tell.

Thanks for the clear and logically argued correction.

This is one of those things that seems to come and go over time. I remember seeing a pair of FWW articles from the late 70s by Ian Kirby and Frank Klausz. Kirby asserted that mortise chisels must always be registered (straight sided) while Klausz argued for taper.

[Pat Barry]

Pat, it's very clear that you've developed some sort of obsessive dislike of me (though a quick look through the archives reveals that I'm in very good company in that regard), but I'd encourage you to stick to what you know or at least avoid cases where your argument isn't so trivially disproven.

The Narex and Hirsch mortise chisels at a minimum have similar base-to-top taper to the Ray Iles ones that Schwartz was claiming were unique.

EDIT: OK, I was wrong here as Lowell pointed out. That's what happens when you let trolls get under your skin. My apologies to everybody else who saw this.
Cool it bud. Just pointing out that the source here was solid. Keep up with your comments though. Some of them are interesting.

[lowell holmes]

I use square sided mortise chisels, fairly happy with them. All things considered I like them better than comparable tapered side mortise chisels I had previously.

Yamahiro is the maker.
I'm not in your league of woodworking Brian. However, I must admit I use the square sided or tapered side chisels by whim. What ever suits me at the moment is what I use.

Did you see the Becksvoort article in Fine Woodworking demonstrating how to cut mortises. He drilled them on a drill press and then placed the square side chisel in the mortise at one end of the drilled mortise. He then levered the sides smooth with the chisel. It left remarkably smooth mortises.

[Brian Holcombe]

I haven't seen it, does he drill a single hole or drill out the waste entirely?

[lowell holmes]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/cut-a-mortise-in-minutes.aspx

He drills the waste out entirely. Check the article.:)

[lowell holmes]

329135

The through mortises on my Craftsman Style rocking chairs are chopped with a 1"bevel edge chisel. You don't just whack away at it. :)

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice work Lowell!

most of the time on big through mortises I just drill a hole and saw out the waste. Then pare to the line. I don't know if it's the fastest method, but it's certainly easy on me.

[lowell holmes]

I would like to see the saw you use. I've experimented with jab saws, but not with any luck. I suppose a coping saw would work, but I am the worlds worst with coping saws.

[Brian Holcombe]

I just feed a bow saw through the hole, thin blade (1/4") but aggressive teeth.

[lowell holmes]

I built the Gramercy bow saw, but teeth of the blades give me a fit. They are really grabby. I've tried stoning some of the set out, but not much success.

I made the saw out of curly maple, but one of the arms broke. I think I will make another from either hard maple or QS white oak.

I have the same issues with coping saws. Fret saw teeth are too fine.

I seem to be coping/turning saw challenged.:)

[Tom M King]

Today, I remembered where I was when the Ulmia mortise chisels came. I bought them in 1976. Getting used to the long tool, and tapered sides, I've never liked using anything else. They've been keep in a thick leather roll from the first day, and are still in great shape. I tried to find some on the internet, but evidently there are none except for a couple of 5/8's. If they had cost this much in 1976, I'm sure I wouldn't have them. http://www.amazon.com/Ulmia-343-16-Mortise-Chisel-16mm/dp/B006WSEKLO

If I have a lot of mortises to cut, I'll set up a machine. If there are just a couple of dozen, I'll just chop them out by hand. I've never drilled holes, but just start in the middle to keep from bruising the ends. It probably takes less than a minute per, and maybe even a couple in a minute depending on how deep they are.